.38 S&W dies

[longranger]

O.K got some controversy over at the Colt forum regarding the .38 S&W and RCBS dies. Could a couple of you .38 S&W experts review what has been said, some of it not to pretty.
Theres a guy that keeps telling me that the proper bullet for the .38 S&W is .355-7, I learned here it is .360, I am loading for 1926 Colt P.P.
From what Wil posted I should be expanding.02- .03 under bullet size,this don't work with any cast bullet I have used.You need to expand enough to get the bullet started.I am using Mag Tech .38 S&W 146 gr. bullets that are .360.
If I owe an apology I want to get it right. I think this guy is all wet.[smilie=b:

http://www.coltforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25203

Any clarification would appreciated,If I am out of line I want to correct it

Thanks
Randy

[dubber123]

For .360" boolits a .358" expander would be about right. Regardless of how much you expand them, are you sure you are belling the case mouth enough? Seating a .360" boolit into a .358" expanded and properly flared case should be no problem at all. I would oil up one of those Magtech boolits and tap it through the cylinder throats to get an accurate idea of what they measure. Many of the older Colts are on the tight side. You may not need a boolit that fat.

Well, I read the posting you linked, and you won't like it, but the guy is pretty much right. He states the normal .38/357 Mag expanders will run smaller, to account for the smaller "normal" boolit diameters of .357-.358". He says you would want and expander in the .358" range to give the proper grip on a .360"+ boolit, and thats completely correct.

[kyle623]

from the sound of it, i'm pretty sure i wouldnt want to shoot anything that that will guy loaded. you are correct that most 38 S&W's are in the 360 range, .355 is a 38 super and 9mm IIRC i have an old set of 38 sw steel dies and i use my 9x18 mak carbide resizing die for cases. it could be they might be thinking of the 38 short which would be the same dimensions as the 38 spcl/357. just my .02, Kyle

[dubber123]

Kyle, re-read the guys post on the Colt forum. He was talking about the needed sizes for the EXPANDERS, not the size for the boolits. The guy is right. The sizes the guy suggested are right to give .002-.003" case neck tension.

RCBS keeps giving Longranger a small expander more suited to a .38 Special. Mine were the same way, I just welded my expander up, and turned it to the correct size.

[kyle623]

ok dubber, correct me if i'm wrong , but if you have a .360 boolit, which is what my 38sw needs, how are you going to get it started in the case when its only belled to .358 without shaving the boolit? i could be wrong but the expander die as i know it only bells the case mouth to start the bullet. i believe the case sizing dimensions they were talking about were wrong as well, but i'm just going off memory right now too. correct me if i'm wrong please.

[badgeredd]

My suggestion would be to slug your barrel and check the cylinder throats as well as the forcing cone. My Police Positive takes a .358 boolit and the barrel slugs at .356. Like every other cartridge, the boolit is best fit to YOUR gun. Obviously the expander size will also be dictated by your boolit size. Mine shoots best with a soft alloy boolit that is sized for the throats of my cylinder.

Edd

[Wayne Smith]

Why not get the Lyman M die for the 38 S&W?

[dubber123]

ok dubber, correct me if i'm wrong , but if you have a .360 boolit, which is what my 38sw needs, how are you going to get it started in the case when its only belled to .358 without shaving the boolit? i could be wrong but the expander die as i know it only bells the case mouth to start the bullet. i believe the case sizing dimensions they were talking about were wrong as well, but i'm just going off memory right now too. correct me if i'm wrong please.

Kyle, the typical expander in handgun dies serves 2 functions. 1 is to open the case back up a specified amount after it is resized. A resized and non expanded case is generally WELL under the necessary internal size. The second function is to apply enough flare to allow the boolit to start without shaving. The flare has nothing to do with expanding. LEE sells a universal die that just flares. For consistant ammo, you need some case neck tension. a .358" expander will give you .002" worth of "grip" on a .360" boolit, which is about right. My expander for .38 S&W is .360", as my guns need a .362"+ boolit. The poster on the Colt forums numbers are correct, in both the .38 Special, and .38 S&W examples he gave. His numbers equate to about .002" case neck tension in each case.

I think some of this confusion comes from people who have experience loading jacketed ammo for rifles, but not much loading cast. In loading jacketed rifle the flare isn't generally done, and expander balls are pretty well standardized around the normal jacketed bullet diameters. For example, .30-30, .308. 30-06, .300 Mag dies are all likely to come with a .306-.307" expander ball, as .308" is the standard jacketed bullet diameter. Cast is the same way, but we must juggle the proper expander ball diameter depending on the diameter boolit we need to shoot, and you will always need a flare with cast to prevent shaving, unlike jacketed.

[longranger]

Thanks guys for all of the responses, I knew I came to the right place, The dies are definately wrong,they are sent back to RCBS.
I bought and shot the Mag Tech factory loads, they shoot excellant from the gun.I have taken them apart and measured cases and bullets.They are correct per standard dimensions for this cartridge.
.357 Mag,41.Rem Mag and 45 Colt never had this problem fitting cast bullets.
Do this long enough you will have a problem I suppose.
Thanks for your time guys

[Buckshot]

.............Boy, that Wil Terry over on the other BB was rather pre-emptive, wasn't he? It IS true that Colts chambered in 38S&W, or as they called it, Colt New Police were barreled tighter then the other revolvers taking that cartridge. I'm of the conviction that if a revolver is correctly throated a thou or so over the barrel groove, you size to or a thou over the throat ID.

So if the barrel groove is .358" and the cylinder throat is .360" you want to size cast lead to .361" (at least). Now as to case sizing, most die makers seem to think you're going to shoot jacketed slugs and they're going to be of .358" diameter, even though the 38S&W NEVER had a number like that associated with it. For a jacketed slug you might expect an expander to be about .356" or so.

However there is springback in the casemouth so that .356" expander will easily result in a casemouth of .355" ID if the case was sized smaller, regardless the flare placed on it. That is WAY to tight for a cast lead boolit. Early in my travels down the 38S&W road and not being especially savvy about all things revolver, I was still a bit dismayed by the final "May West" appearance of my freshly reloaded foom fodder.

Then 9.3x62Al rode to the rescue and suggested I retire my Lee 38S&W dies and replace them with a set of Lee Makarov dies as they're designed to deal with a .363" jacketed slug. So I did and it's been happiness and light since.

http://www.fototime.com/0F40FFA50960AF7/standard.jpg http://www.fototime.com/ABC5B082138E48F/standard.jpg

Left photo A fired Starline 38 S&W case from a S&W Victory model (M10). Right photo A case sized in the Lee 38S&W die. That's much too tight for a cast lead slug.

http://www.fototime.com/1E675673BEE6C9D/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/C395D3A150A9504/standard.jpg

This is what happens when you stuff soft cast lead into cases sized too enthusiasticly for no good reason. What good does it do you to carefully cast nice boolits of a useable size and then cram them into a much too small case ID?

http://www.fototime.com/9328A09C7BCC969/standard.jpg

It's quite obvious to the naked eye.

http://www.fototime.com/15427C2B47E63FD/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/8DAF2A1F0B9E0C6/standard.jpg

Left photo Iver Johnson 5 shot 38 SW @ 25 yards benched. Lyman 35863 pure lead, sized .363", TL, 1.6gr Red Dot 510 fps Right photo This is the pistol. It was not ever intended as a target pistol. There are LOTS of pistols which will easily outshoot it, but this target is pretty dang good for a revolver like this. The front blade is about as thick as 4 sheets of paper as viewed when aiming, and the rear sight is a miniscule tiny "U" shaped channel in that little hump above the latch.

Oversizing brass does the brass no good, and stuffing a cast lead slug (especially cast of pure lead) into such an oversized case does the accuracy potential of the boolit no good either. Find out what you're revolver wants and size the case and the boolit accordingly. NOT to what some die maker GUESSES will work.

...............Buckshot

[dubber123]

This is about beat Rick, but to be fair, Mr. Terry did not suggest a .356" expander ball, he recommended .358" for .360" boolits. The tighter dimension he mentioned was for the .38 Special, and it is what comes with all my die sets. What I'm saying is that if you can't seat a .360" boolit in cases prepped over a .358" expander, something else is wrong. I suspect insufficient flare, but thats a guess.

Ricks advice about many dies sizing too much is good, as I think the dies manufacturers just make them like short .38 Specials which they are not. I still say even if they are sized undersized in the sizer, the correct expander will open them up the correct amount. All this working of the brass isn't a good idea, but it shouldn't result in lead shaving during seating. Swaging maybe, shaving, no.