22 Hornet is killing me

[wistlepig1]

Today I went to the range with more test loads-----again. Lyman 44 gr # 438, Alox top coat and RCBS lube, 7.9 Lil Gun,OAL 1.510 Comp, SP primers, BHN 11, 1600 fps est., GC,(what else) that's about it. Oh, I did limp to the right as I went up to the bench.:)
100 yds 3 shots, 4 1/4 x 3 5/8 "
19986
50 yds 8 shots 1 x 3/4 "
19987
What is happening between 100 yds and 50 yds? HELP!

[Jack Stanley]

It musta been that limp throwing ya off huh? The groups still look nice enough to do in a chuck :)

Jack

[kir_kenix]

You might try bumping up the Velocity another 100 fps or so and see if that has any affect. Also, any imperfections in them tiny boolits don't really seem to show up on paper until about 100 yards, so I'd make sure the batch you are shooting are as much alike as humanly possible (weight sort maybe?).

What are you sizing to? Whats the twist rate on your hornet? I've always had very good luck with .22's, but I have a few rifles (mainly 1/8 or 1/9) that just don't want to shoot cast very easily.

Sometimes it helps to shoot thru a series of targets (if your range alows it) to see what happens during travel. Some loads seem to settle down at some point, and some become unstable. It just helps to know as much about what is going on between you and the target as possible.

good luck

[BCall]

What gun/twist? That's a pretty light charge for lil gun, have you tried any heavier charge weights? Have you checked the velocity already? May just be too light, destabilizing at lower velocity? Billy

[wistlepig1]

Savage, 1/14 twist, model 25.

As I increased the amount of Lil gun, the more open it becomes.
I use 12.9 grs with J-word and that works real well, that is about all you can get into Win. cases a nd not make a messy.

One other thing is on the white target, that is 3 shots on the whole target, not in each "group" there is NO group.

[Doc Highwall]

Are you shooting with iron sights or scope? And if you are shooting with a scope does it have a parallax adjustment and do you know how to set it?

[wistlepig1]

Scoped rifle. Yes to parallax adjustment but review is always good, thanks

[Casting Timmy]

Forgive me for a stupid question, but wouldn't a 50 yd group of 1.75" expect to be around 3.5" or so at 100 yards? It might be opening up a little, but maybe not a whole lot.

[jhrosier]

I would try another 100 yard group with more than three shots.
I don't think that the 100 yard target has enough information to draw a conclusion.

Jack

[303Guy]

... but wouldn't a 50 yd group of 1.75" expect to be around 3.5" or so at 100 yards? It might be opening up a little, but maybe not a whole lot.That might sound a reasonable question but a three shot group should typically be about half an 8 shot group. The 50yd group was an oval group at .75" by 1" wide.

If'n it weren't so tiny a boolit I would suggest paper patching but I won't. I have cast a few reasonably defect free boolits in 22 but these were smooth sided. But it has been done and with incredible accuracy so don't give up. (One day I'll cast for my hornet).

Oh, don't be shy to try a 60gr RN smooth side cast in a hornet. A 1-in-16 twist is plenty to stabilize it and you have 1-in-14 twist. That'll make Lil'Gun burn a bit better I should think. In fact, I would try a 70gr RN but then I can make my own molds so that doesn't actually count.

[leftiye]

What alloy? Have you read beagle's article in castpics on the Hornet? He got good accuracy with Lil'Gun. What size is your bore and groove? What size is your freebore? What size are your boolits? If your boolit doesn't start into the rifling without deforming or gas cutting, (i.e. = too small boolit, too large is fine - if it will chamber) or if it is too soft to keep from deforming (main difference between cast and jacketed) it won't shoot straight.

[Larry Gibson]

I also believe that is too light a charge of LilGun for that light of a bullet. Stability is obviously lost after 50 yards. This is quite obvious from the non-linear group dispersion. It can be caused by several things particularly a very large ES at low velocity levels. I've found LilGun doesn't burn efficiently unless a certain pressure level is reached. You probably have not reached that pressure level. I'd suggest a powder shift to 2400, 4227 5744 or 4759. I'd also harden up the bullets a little to around 16-18 BHN or WQ WWs + 2 % tin.

Another thing that can frustrate accuracy with Hornets is to us FL dies in a partial size mode. The necks get surprisingly bent crooked after going over the expander button. With the shorter .22 cal bullets there isn't a lot of bearing surface so keeping them concentric with the bore is necessary. I use a Redding bushing die to NS but the Lee collet die works very well.

One other thing I'll mention is that my lube tests with several lubes from 1600 fps to 2500 fps showed RCBS rifle lube to be a poor choice. I know it is supposed to be a 50/50 alox/beeswax mix but something just isn't right with it. Groups were 2+ times larger with the RCBS rifle lube than with any other lube. Some have reported good accuracy with it but I have tried it several times over the years an have not had any good accuracy with it. I have 2 sticks of it if any body wants them, if not I'll just use it for fluxing as it does a good job of that. I use Javelina lube with that bullet up through 2500 fps out of my 22 Hornets.

Larry Gibson

[HangFireW8]

Larry,


I've found LilGun does burn efficiently unless a certain pressure level is reached. You probably have not reached that pressure level.

Did you mean doesn't?

Anyway, I agree, a little more velocity might cure a world of accuracy ills.

-HF

[NHlever]

My guess is that the really light load of Lil' Gun is causing more variation in velocity than you think. That is not a great powder for reduced loading. The velocity variations aren't showing up that much, but with breezes, a poor balistic shape, etc. the variations are really making themselves known at 100 yards. This is far more of an issue with slower boolits than with faster ones at these ranges. For that velocity range, I would try much smaller loads of Titegroup, Universal, or Unique, or perhaps 5.5-6.0 grains of 2400. I save H-110, Lil' Gun, and AA-1680 for full power loads.

I have also had better results with the RCBS "green" pistol lube than the rifle lube, and it's not as messy.

[Gohon]

I always thought when a bullet dropped back into the subsonic range a lot of turbulence was created which would affect accuracy. If the estimated speed at the muzzle is 1600 fps (could be lower) then this is what may be occurring at the 90-100 yard range. I would set up several targets from 50 to 100 yards and see where the spread is starting at. I'm certainly no expert but it just seems like a possibility to me. I load the same cast Lyman 438 with 3.0 grains Unique for a tad less than 1600 fps as a squirrel round but I've never shot it beyond 50 yards where it performs very well.

[w30wcf]

I have shot lots of .22 Hornet cast bullets @ .22 W.C.F. velocities (1,500-1,600 f.p.s.) Favorite load is 3.3 / 231 / CCI500 small pistol primer. 5 shot groups @ 50 yards run 1" and less and groups @ 100 yds. run 2" and less, so I don't think that the velocity is the problem.

Perhaps too much lube (alox overcoat) and possibly a better lube than RCBS as Larry indicated would help things. I use Javelina which has worked very well.

Do the gas checks fit nice and tight? If not, any chance of them coming off in flight?

A few other things to try:
1.) use bullets that have no visual flaws - especially the bases
2.) use bullets that are +-.1 gr in weight variance
3.) Orientate the bullets through the luberisizer and then through the gun
4.) Use the Lyman "M" die
5.) try with no crimp
6.) try with different bullet seating depths
7.) try a faster burning powder for 1,600 f.p.s. speed

I have found that air cooled w.w.+2% tin bullets will group just fine at up to 2,700 f.p.s. from my '43 Win Hornet. If your bullets are at least that hard, try a few over your jacketed bullet 'lil gun load. You may be surprised.....

Good luck,

w30wcf

[cumminsnut76]

What alloy? Have you read beagle's article in castpics on the Hornet? He got good accuracy with Lil'Gun. What size is your bore and groove? What size is your freebore? What size are your boolits? If your boolit doesn't start into the rifling without deforming or gas cutting, (i.e. = too small boolit, too large is fine - if it will chamber) or if it is too soft to keep from deforming (main difference between cast and jacketed) it won't shoot straight.

I agree with Leftiye if you havn't read it read Beagles articles in castpics. They have some really good information

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,



Did you mean doesn't?

Anyway, I agree, a little more velocity might cure a world of accuracy ills.

-HF


Yup that's what I meant, thanks for catching it. I've corrected the post.

Larry Gibson

[wistlepig1]

Guys, I will try to answer some of your question.

Alloy is 3 ww to 1 lead pipe. about 11 BHN. I got a small amout of Pewter today (about 90% tin) and will add it to the alloy to get the BHN up.

No I havn't read Beagles articles in castpics, I looked could find the article you were talking about. Have read some of his on other topic and would thank anyone that could give me the link.

Bore was .224, bullits as cast are .2255, and after sizer were back to 224, problem! I chuck up the sizer die and now it will throw .225,better for the next testing.

Lube, I change out the RCBS lube I had in my sizer to Lyman Moly, that was all I had on hand.

Powder, Now that I have corrected my bullit size, I will up my charge/Velocity and see what that will do. I was guessing that the 7.9 of LiLgun was only1600 fps as my chromo went junk at the range. We are have snow tonite so range day will be a few days off. Thanks for all the suggestion and if you think of something else please let me know.:grin:

[leftiye]

The article is "Cast in the .22 Hornet" It doesn't seem to have a credit to Beagle. BTW, I mentioned it because - IIRC - he used a charge just about like yours and also used small pistol primers. Don't feel all alone, the hornet gives a lot of us headaches.

[wistlepig1]

Leftye, I found the article and re-read it, I think that is where I got the stating load info of 7.5 LiLgun load and have worked up to 7.9 grs. We have snow on the way so when I can get back to the range, I think I will try 8.2 and 8.5. That should get the FPS up and MAY help the 100yd or NOT.[smilie=b: