Buffalo Bore, what am I missing?

[sheepdog]

This guy sells boxes of lead cast loads in boxes of 20 for around $30 a box. I must be in the wrong business :holysheep

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

He also loads up to maximum Saami specs, which also carries liabilty issues. If you every use it, be sure that your firearm can handle it.

[the_ursus]

As a reloader, I'd have a hard time matching the energy and velocity of their 340gr +p+ loads for my .44 mag. Spendy? Yes! But for my application, it's worth it.

Here's was I have: .44 Magnum +P+ 340 gr. L.F.N. (1,478 fps/M.E. 1,649 ft. lbs.)

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Is that the published data or data that you have collected by using a chrono?

I don't shoot 44 mag, but that seems like a dangerous load to me.

[gray wolf]

You should see there 32ACP loads---Ho, boy.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Can you spell Hot Load ? Make sure your weapon is up to the task...JMHO

[the_ursus]

Here it is:
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=54

I have not shot it through a crony to varify but they do feel healthy in my Super Redhawk! Here's BB's disclaimer:
"This new load is designed for only certain revolvers that have the cylinder length to handle it. They are as follows. Ruger Red Hawk, Ruger Super Red Hawk, Ruger Super Blackhawk or Vaquero, Freedom Arms Model 83, Taurus Raging Bull and Dan Wesson Revolvers. Suitable rifles include T/C Encore, "modified" Marlin 1894, Winchester 1894, any rifle with a falling block action and the Handi Rifle"

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Oh BOY! If you got a spare round you should run it thru a chrony to see if the advertised data is correct. That load has some knock down power!

[jdgabbard]

Seen their .380 data? A 100g RN at 1150fps.... Thats hot... Their 38spl data is even more impressive...

[outdoorfan]

Will the Ruger handle those loads? Sure. But are those loads unreasonable? According to John Linebaugh they are.

[geargnasher]

Funny this thread got started, my boss and I were looking at a sale flyer (DNR which one) tonight after work and marvelling at the +P+ .44 mag. and a few others, particularly the 480 at something like 1900 fps for 300+ grain. Also noted the warning for the .44mag which said basically don't shoot it in a Smith. I've found to stay below 5% of published max in a pre-89 S&W model 29 and avoid 296 altogether as the flimsy little buckets o'crud can't handle it without jumping time and ballooning cases. We discussed the liability issues too, couldn't figure out why a company would make a product that law of averages and law of human stupidity dictate will eventually end up in the wrong gun and potentially hurt someone. Or why anyone would ever desire or need +P+ .44 mag. Get the Casull and be done with it.

Gear

[Bret4207]

I'll gladly take all your "buckets of crud" off your hands, I'll even pay shipping.

Anyone actually, really and truly run this stuff over a chronograph with a 4-6" barrel?

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Anyone actually, really and truly run this stuff over a chronograph with a 4-6" barrel?

My thoughts EXACTLY.

[44man]

There has been a lot of discussion on Alaska outdoors in the handgun section about BB ammo.
Someone also posted this picture of a Ruger cylinder.
I won't say anything about BB because I don't know. But it gives me pause for thought.

[redneckdan]

What are you missing?


A whole lot of pain.

[Naphtali]

The operant questions are: Do buyers of the "specialty" maximum ammunition of [fill in the blank] buy because they are confident their target [again, fill in the blank] will be stopped or killed, or [fill in the blank, yet again] more effectively than a load using cannister powder and comparable cast bullet near maximum. Or are they buying peace of mind, knowing that there is no more potent loading of the caliber and bullet weight they have chosen?

To the best of my knowledge, testing of the effectiveness of the "super max" loads compared with those slightly less potent and significantly less taxing on firearm occurs yearly?? at Linebaugh seminars. Here is the place where prospective "super max" ammunition buyers would obtain peace of mind AND reliable information pertaining to ammunition effectiveness.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[sheepdog]

All I know is the box I have was the 38 +p loading. 20 cartridge box marked $34.98. And the box is the size of a 25 round shotshell box or larger! I had to check the website to make sure these weren't silver bullets or some RBCD type clone.

Holy cow though those are hot loads. All his money from the high dollar loads must go to liability insurance!

[454PB]

I have no experience with this ammo, but I have chronographed the Lee 300 FNGC (actually weighs 320 grains ready to load) in my 7 1/2" Redhawk at 1450 fps. using Lil'Gun. This is definately a high pressure load and the recoil is about the same as that of my .454 Casulls, but it showed no signs of being over pressure in my gun.

I don't advocate using a load this hot, but found it while doing my initial experimentation with Lil'Gun in various cartridges.

[the_ursus]

are they buying peace of mind, knowing that there is no more potent loading of the caliber and bullet weight they have chosen?


That was my reasoning since I only own one hand gun .44SRH. I fired 3 rounds last fall at 20yds just to varify point of impact. I don't remember what the spent primers looked like but I'm curious. I'll check them when I get home.

[Marlin Hunter]

It would seem easier to buy a bigger gun if you needed more stopping powder. Two normal 38 rounds in quick succession should be more effective than one of those 38 ++p+++ round.

If you need to stop a bear with a 44, get a 444.

[Storydude]

BB's 10mm matches exactly his posted Specs.(1350FPS, 700+FtLbs ME)

[dubber123]

I'm betting more guns have been blown up by trying to match their performance than have actually been blown up by Buffalo Bores ammo. It's an expensive proposition to get into the ammo manufacturing biz, and I bet they know what they are doing. They do run right to SAAMI max, but thats what the "Max" is for isn't it?. I'm less bothered by this guy loading max than I am by MOST of the other companies loading underpower rounds. As long as he keeps pressures within spec, I don't have a problem. I have no desire to buy any, but thats just me.

[Freightman]

Found a pile of 45 Colt brass head stamped Buffalo Bore, Picked it up and cleaned and re-sized it, didn't seem over stretched as I sized them and the brass looked as all once fired brass does. I appreciate the donation I can get. Brass isn't found at our range often.

[the_ursus]

I checked a spent +p+ round last night for it's primer condition. Pressure was high judging by the flattened primer but not much more than I see with my hottest hand loads. There was still a recessed ring around primer and pocket.

I'll continue to carry them without worry.

[Adam10mm]

Liability insurance for ammunition manufacturers isn't based on what you load or whom you sell it to, it's how much you sell. My liability insurance is less than Georgia Arms and for one reason: they load several million rounds a year and I can get out about 3 million rounds in a year if the press is running smooth and running 60 hours a week. They are the 5th largest ammunition manufacturer in the country, Hornady is #4 (Winchester, Remington, and ATK family occupy the top 3 spots).

More product on the market means more of a chance for an error and that increased the manufacturer's liability. I asked my insurance company if there was a difference in premium versus plinker loads, hot loads or custom loads. None of the half dozen insurance companies said it makes a difference. They base liability on market share and the premium is based on that. Liability insurance for an ammunition manufacturer is actually quite affordable.

Buffalo Bore, like other companies, is using price as a marketing tool to convey superiority, much like Garrett does. "That fast, that expensive, it's gotta be good." Cha-ching.

Let's see, .44 Mag, new manufacture brass, lead bullet, carry the one.... I can load and sell a box of 20rds of the same exact thing for $15.72/20rds and make $100 per hour doing it. The thing that makes Buffalo Bore ammunition worth the price they command is because people pay it. Blended powder any OEM manufacturer can get along with an assload of markup is all it is. There's your smoke and mirrors.

Cost for 20rds is $12.17, 300% markup gets you $36.51/20 with a couple bucks extra for the fancy packing. Of the $38.68 you pay, the ATF gets 11% or $4.26 of that in federal excise tax. $34.43 net goes to Buffalo Bore, take out the cost and it's a cool $21.72 for less than 2 minutes pulling the machine handle. A guy on a 1050 loading for 5 hours a day can make $651.60/hr at that rate good for $3,258 per day. Five day work week is 260 days per year for a grand total of $847,080 per year. If you're a one man show loading that one round like that to keep overhead down, you're in the top 1% of the wealthiest American's (above $499,999) by July if you start the first of the year. 1.3 million round production for the year is easy on a 1050. 1,000 rounds an hour 5 hours a day, 5 days a week. Part time business that can net you close to being a millionaire.

[ss30378]

I have a few boxes of the .44 +p+ and shot em through my super B hunter. Cases extracted easily primers looked fine and were sub 2 inches at 25 yds to boot offhand, just kicked liked hell. But they are MAX length for a blackhawk cylinder! I had one jump crimp a few thousands and tie up the gun. Redhawks got the advantage there! So once i get the long 5 shot cylinder should be free and clear of that issue. But overall the heavy bba rounds seem like good stuff. I run their 45 super rounds through my longslide and they are good stuff so far as well... Oh and thanks to freakshows calculations I found my new career! :)

[Adam10mm]

Trouble is getting someone to pay for it. I've been an ammunition manufacturer for 3 years and it's been a struggle from day one. Been on many roller coaster rides along the way. Tried many different niches to fill, many different pricing sets, many different loads and bullet types. Still trying to figure it out. It's not as easy as it looks. Everything always looks good on paper but when you start living it and doing it, things change drastically for the worse.

[ss30378]

As with any business it always looks good in 2D. Im happy in my career, so maybe just a part time job if i ever decided to do it lol. For now ill just stick to feeding my own guns. And seeing how heavy of a bullet i can fit in the old super. :)

[Adam10mm]

One of the best part time jobs for ammo manufacturing is just loading for the local cops and gun shop to offer their customers a low priced alternative to big name factory fodder. That's how I got my start. Now I load for every police agency in three counties and the local gun shop buys several cases of pistol ammo a month. For a guy that's got a full time job and weekend to load a few cases, that's a nice gun budget every month.

[ss30378]

Well heck come on down here to the detroit area where ammos hard to come by and theres a lot of people looking for it and youll be set!

[Adam10mm]

I plan on scaling back and focusing on Michigan customer base. Leave my website up cause that's how people find me. I'll take the online orders but trying to focus on the local customers to build my business. Tried a couple things and they damn near ruined my business and marriage. Basically starting over from scratch with some hard lessons learned. Be nice if I had the budget to hit the gun shows this summer. Load up a trailer full of ammo and keep going until I run out. Then come back home, load up the next trailer full and do it again. Keep doing it until winter comes again. Be nice to have a two man team. One guy working the show circuit while the other is at home base loading. Trouble is I can only afford to load a couple cases a time and work with that until I build up capital.