Home defense handgun?

[philthephlier]

What is your first choice for a home defense handgun and what is your favorite cast bullet for it?

[Shiloh]

Currently it is a .40 S&W with factory hollow points. I have used others.

Shiloh

[jhrosier]

I keep a .40S&W Sig with a couple of 14 rounders full of factory hardball handy.
I shoot it well enough but am not particulary interested in it for plinking so it gets shot, cleaned, and loaded with fresh factory ammo annually.
If I were to cast for it, the 170gr TC would be my first choice.

Jack

[dk17hmr]

Depends on who is doing the defending here. If it is me, my 1911 with night sites is by the bedside. If the Girlfriend is defending, she has a Colt Detective 6 shot 38 spl.....dont have cast bullets loaded in either though. 200gr Gold Dots in my 1911 and 125gr XTP's in her Colt.

We practice with cast though.

There is also a short barreled 12 gauge handy if needed. :)

[beagle]

The ideal home defense handgun is probably whatever you feel the most comfortable with.

There are many pros and cons about which is best but again, it comes down to what you are familiar with handling and shooting accurately in a stressful situation.

This may vary dependent on whether it's just you or is there a wife involved. I know I prefer my Browning High Power 9mm but her preference is the Model 15 S & W .38 Special because automatics are not familiar to her and the revolver is as it's hers and she shoots it often and feels comfortable with it.

IMO, caliber is immaterial. Many would be thugs have been discouraged, injured or even killed with the lowly .22 LR. I know that if I was thinking about breaking into a home and knew there was a .22 present, I'd think twice about it and pass it up.

There are those that will argue for more firepower but I'll still stick with what is familiar to me and trust in my skills and the cowardice of those attempting a break in./beagle

[RobS]

I personally look at the 45 auto for self defense and with that I have a 45 ACP Springfield XD. As for a bullet if it were to be cast then I would either use a bullet with a large meplat such as the Lee 200 grain round nose flat point or the Lyman Devastator 185g hollow point.

[jnovotny]

Ditch the handgun and get a 12 ga shotgun. Pump, autoloader,or side by side. Load the thing with 6,7 or 8 shot, that way you won't penatrate your walls and your nieghbors walls, He'll thank you for that. Trust me bird shot at 10 to 12 feet will be all you ever need.

[Down South]

I use my carry piece, a S&W 642. It rests on my night stand by my bed at night. If I were to buy something strictly for home defense then I would choose a different piece. I would probably go with a .45 auto, several brands would work.
Some like the Taurus Judge. I have one that I use for my rat killin gun when I’m bush hogging. I think the Judge would work well loaded with buckshot but I would still prefer a semi auto with an extra mag or two.
Oh, I don’t have neighbors so some of the above suggestions may apply. And I load with factory +P most of the time.

[Ole]

4" Ruger GP100 and 135 grain Gold Dot short barrel factory ammo.

[RobS]

The ideal home defense handgun is probably whatever you feel the most comfortable with.


Good advise.............+1

[mpmarty]

My bedside gun is a 1911 loaded with 185gr solid copper with HUGE hollow points. They feed and function. Wife has her 9X18 PPK clone on her bedside table with CorBon 90gr hollow points and my Saiga 12 is in the corner with a twelve round mag full of #4 3" magnums. To hell with over penetration it's over 5 miles to my nearest neighbor.

[wistlepig1]

I have a Colt commander loaded with Black Talons in 45acp for a handgun but an 870 with a 18 1/2" barrel is also handy, if needed. I am comfortable with both.

[Jim]

Ruger P345 with 230 FMJ hard balls.

[fredj338]

Ditch the handgun and get a 12 ga shotgun. Pump, autoloader,or side by side. Load the thing with 6,7 or 8 shot, that way you won't penatrate your walls and your nieghbors walls, He'll thank you for that. Trust me bird shot at 10 to 12 feet will be all you ever need.
Depends on the SG. Open or cyl bore riot guns spread shot very quickly, on the order of 1" per yard. So across "average" rooms fo 15f, that's a 5" pattern. Birdshot will NOT penetrate very deeply nor cause much mor ethan surface wounding w/ a 5" spread. Any other choke will do better, but a SG is a siege weapon IMO. Lock the door, call 911 & hunker down w/ the SG.
The problem comes in moving through your house, checking that noies, gathering a small child or older person, may require the use of the weak hand. Long guns are much more easily taken away in a close range confrontation. So IMO, any handgun of 9mm & up w/ good JHP, that you are comfortable w/ is a suitable HD choice. For years, mine was a 4" 357mag loaded w/ 158grLSWCHP+P 38sp. The wife was comfortable w/ that. TOday it's mu USP w/ weapon light, but that could change next month too.;) I don't load my own HD/SD ammo, I prefer high end factory stuff.

[Recluse]

Any gun I happen to have around at the time is fine with me. I'm comfortable and confident with all of them.

I keep my Mossberg 500 bedside and a Model 19 .357 Magnum in my nightstand drawer.

I alternate carrying between a Colt Gov't Series 70, a Taurus 92, a Star .380ACP and a Model 686 in town.

When I'm at the country property or small towns/very rural areas, it's either the hogleg Model 29 or hogleg Model 686.

I shoot 'em all a great deal and stay very proficient with all of them. So it doesn't really matter to me which gun I happen to have around at the time.

Don't keep cast boolits in too many of them, though. Not sure why, I just don't.

:coffee:

[randyrat]

I have a baseball bat, actually a number of them stationed around the house and a shot gun for back up. Poor feller will be in jail with a spliting headace and many broken bones or dead. Depends on what is brought to the fight.
I have to be very carefull at this juncture, there are a number of children that are in my house often, so a loaded gun has to be gaurded 24/7.
I need one of those quick access pistol safes.

[scrapcan]

I too am a fan of the shotgun. get one setup for home defense and load it with OO buck. And practice with it. Buy a pumpkin or three and use the SG with the target at across the room distances. And make sure all of those in teh house can operate it for more than one shot.

a handgun is also good to have around, whatever you are comfortable and proficient with. And if you have others in the house what they are comfortable and proficient with. For a house gun make sure it is always in the same location and ready to go. That includes if you need to keep it out of unauthorized hands, i.e. small children.

as worded this is a house gun not a carry gun so everyone who lives in the house should know where it is and how to use it. Best to get the routine through to them on where the go and where safe room is also. Good to have a phone and flashlight in close proximity. depengin on what your house/apartment/tent looks like you can deal with the general nature of where over penetration could occur. When they fill up the door after being told not to, a door frame/hall way etc will also help to keep tunnel vision from creating huge issues with effectiveness.

Your carry gun and being outside or your home is a whole different story.

[9.3X62AL]

870 in 12 gauge is primary. #4 buckshot on board. CZ-75 in 40 S&W is at hand also, but that is kinda gilding the lily. Get The Gauge. I had a fool try some nonsense in my front yard about 2 years ago. He smartened right up when the action on the 870 got worked--from meth-cranked trailer trash to Rhodes Scholar in an elapsed 2.4 seconds. A highly educational device, on many levels--one that instills wisdom and teaches respect like few other mechanisms.

[bbs70]

40 cal Glock with Black Talons.
Practice with 170g tc cast boolits.

[chboats]

I too am in favor of the 12 gauge pump loaded with anything even a trap or skeet load. I don't keep a round in the chamber. There is no mistaking the sound of loading that pump with as much force as possible. If the intruder is still coming, shoot and shoot to kill because he either means real harm or is serious stupid.
Carl

[Maximilian225]

I personally look at the 45 auto for self defense and with that I have a 45 ACP Springfield XD. As for a bullet if it were to be cast then I would either use a bullet with a large meplat such as the Lee 200 grain round nose flat point or the Lyman Devastator 185g hollow point.

+1, Exact same setup
This gun will not feed semi-wadcutters though. The extracted rounds rim hangs on the next round in the magazines case mouth. It reguires a HP, RN, or RNF profile. The Mihec 452-200 with the 5 sided HP pin is another good choice in this caliber.

-Max

[warf73]

40s&w is on the night stand for the wife, she practices with it alot and is a very good shot just hope she never has to use it.

[nouseforaname1246]

i got a XDM in .40 s&w sittin on the night stand with a 870 full of #4 buck on the side of the bed.

[Hitman]

Glock 22 .40S&W by the bed loaded with Hornady critical defense.
Glock 19 9mm loaded with Cor-Bon Powr' Ball in wifes office.
Mossberg 500 Tactical in the basement loaded with 2 bean bags, 1 bird shot, 3 00 buck and 1 slug, with a 5 slot side saddle with 1 of each and and a breeching round.
870 Tactical loaded the same in the garage.

Practice till perfect with cast bullets.

[dangerranger]

Im shure my home situation is very differant than most. but my go to home defender is a 22 rifle. I mostly have to defend from skunks , snakes, and stray dogs.[ the four leggid kind]. to get to my house their are gates then a long driveway, another gate, and the dogs, all before you get to our door. we have plenty of warning before anyone gets here. DR

[lwknight]

I keep a P-95 9mm in the nitestand with 124 grain golden sabers because I can't fine some 147 grain gold dots or HSTs
BTW Black Talons are old technology but still get the job done.

With 100s of thousands of dollars research being done to build the most effective man stopper bullets , it seems backward to want to use cast boolits in SD or HD siruations.

I have worked up a great 44mag boolit and load to down a large animal like a 600 pound bore hog but, doubt that it would be any more effective as a man stopper than a 357 mag with some HSTs or Gold Dots or a 9mm +P+ load with proper bullets.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Here in Peru I have several 38 or 357 revolvers placed about the house to buy enough time to get to the REAL HOME DEFENSE items... a short barreled Mossberg 12 guage or the 1892 44-40 Winny. The revolvers all carry a load of 4 grains Unique with 162 gr SWC from a Lyman 357446 mold. The Mossburg is loaded with #4 shot and the Winny with a 220 grain from a Saeco mold #443 with 9 grains Unique.
When up NORTH there in the U.S. of A. there is a 38 revolver close to my wife and other revolvers in 41 mag loaded to 41 Special power dispersed about the house. The 38 holds 4 grains Unique with 170 grainers from a Lyman 358429 mold. The 41´s are loaded with 7.5 grains Unique with a 220 swc from a Lee mold. Again these are for time to get to semi-auto rifles that are close by.

[jdgabbard]

:killingpc

This again....

But seriously. You're going to have you're die hard 45 guys that are going to tell you there is no substitute for caliber. This is the say thing as the car guys used to say. Remember that old saying "There is no replacement for displacement" ??? Yeah, they pretty much stopped saying that when they started seeing the twin turbo rice burners running 8s in the quarter mile....

As mentioned before. The BEST one is one that you'll KEEP on you. A very smart man once told me that if its not in arms reach it doesn't matter what you have. Dependent on mood, and attire, I'll carry anything from a USP 40 to a .380 Bersa. Tho, I mostly carry a J-Frame .38spl. Which in my opinion is one of the best you can choose. Its small, ballistics are (I don't care what you say) comparable to the 9mm, and its filled more body bags then probably any other caliber. A 125g HP at 1100fps is going to do the job, and a 158g SWC at 950fps will do so too.

Bottom like, make sure whatever you get is reliable, and handy. Otherwise it doesn't matter how many rounds you have in your Wonder-9, Super 40 or 1911...

But if you want the perfect caliber for the night stand, just do what I do. Get you a trusty .357 Smith. It sings too! "Anything you can do I can do better..."

[WHITETAIL]

For the house gun we have a SP101 in 357.
I load it with Winchester 38special +P
130gr. STX.
I have shot these at wet news print at
15 feet. and they will almost turn in side out!
:redneck:

[ebg3]

Saw a show where the hosts shot simulated sheet rock walls with various guns to see what kind of penetration they got. Birdshot loads in a shotgun looked really good for not going through multiple walls but still delivering a heck of a load on target. If you hit a bad guy with a load of # 8's at a room distance, he will have a BAD day. The buck shot loads went through several "walls" and could present a problem for other family members in the house if you had to shoot. As for the handguns, it seems the 9mm penetrated more "walls" than the 45 they tested. All that said, I keep a 4" M29 beside my bed with full power 240gr jhps. I guess I'll get a lot of penetration! The way I see it, something is better than nothing.
EG

[Village Idiot]

For concealed carry I use either a Ruger Security Six with 158 gr JHP or S&W M&P compact 9 with 125 gr JHP. Wife carries S&W 38 with +P 125 gr JHP.
For home defense - 1st line are the 2 pictured in the avatar, male and female boxers. They are the wife’s protectors. She says as soon as I leave their attitude changes to a much more protective mode.
We don't have any kids, just her and I in the house. On my side of the bed is a 12 Ga. Mossberg 500 pump with 00 buck, and the possibility of any of the following. Ruger security six 2 3/4 or 4", GP100 6", Redhawk 44mag 5", S&W 9mm, Ruger 9mm P85, Springfield 1911, Glock 21 45ACP. Wife’s side has a 20 Ga. Rem 870 pump with #2 buck and the possibility of any 38 or 357 D/A revolvers with the 125 gr +p.
Wife has been taught to never confront anyone, the bedroom is her sanctuary. Bedroom set up so her side of the bed is the furthest from the door. Once on her side of the bed anyone entering has to navigate around or over the bed to get to her. At hand she has at least one if not more firearms and a phone set up with auto dial for 911. She's also been taught to fire at center of mass and stop when the threat has ended. If they are in your bedroom and facing you they are a threat. If they are down or retreating the threat is over.
I believe any of the above firearms are good for personal defense. Whatever you are comfortable with that function without issue is better than throwing a lamp. It is more important you are completely intimate with the firearm and shooting it is second nature. I have shot all the above so much that grabbing the grip in the dark I know what gun it is. That is also why the wife sticks with the D/A revolvers, they all function the same. Once you are settled on the firearms of choice, have a plan. If you have a situation what would you do, how would you handle it? Waking up out of a sound sleep is not the time to be trying to figure out what to do.
V.I.

[philthephlier]

Most popular so far by far. Very Interesting. Keep it coming. I think this a valuable thread for many others like me who haven't settled completely. I have been keeping a NM Blackhawk in 45 Colt close by but the single action is not a fast second shot piece, not a fast first shot piece either. Lot of responders using autos. I have a Walther P1 9MM but think like many others that the power is a bit anemic but I don't have a closed mind about it yet.

A reliable one has a great many advantages. A double action model with one in the chamber? Is that how most of you keep it ready?

[Village Idiot]

Most, if not all, modern name brand D/A revolvers have either a hammer block or transfer bar that do not allow the hammer to contact the firing pin without the trigger bring pulled. Most have very light firing pins that will not generate enough impact to set the round off even when dropped on the muzzle from normal heights on a hard surface. SAAMI has a required drop tests that production guns must pass during the design stage. I carry one under the hammer with minimal concern. However, that being said, the only certain thing in life is nothing is certain. For complete confidence carry with the chamber under the hammer empty.
V.I.

[Shiloh]

40s&w is on the night stand for the wife, she practices with it alot and is a very good shot just hope she never has to use it.

So do I.

Practice, familiarity and self confidence is important. It would be great if there were no scumbags, but that never has been nor will ever be the case.

Shiloh

[indymadcaster]

well baby UZI eagle in 9mm with nightsights and 124 gr xtp shoots in to 1.5 in @25 yrds by bed when we are home sks with federal 125 gr softpoints match AR scoped with a trijicon and most of the family can hit 8 inch gong @ 300 yards and a 500 mossberg first 2 rounds #4 shot next 2 are #4 buck and last 2 are slugs with ghost ring sights got couple different 38/357 stashed around with 148 hollowbased pure lead cast wadcutters loaded inverted over max charge of unique and everyone in the house has qualified with all and we have a hand sign language between us and have practiced responding to different intruder/home invasion so I BET we give WAY better than we get

[wiljen]

I was taught that handguns are used to fight your way to a better arm. If given the option, a Long gun (either carbine or shotgun) is a much better choice than any handgun. Since you asked about a home gun, not a carry gun that limits you to handguns, I'd recommend either a carbine or shotgun. Practice with either, not only shooting, but moving through your home so you know what corners give problems etc.., There is no point in limiting yourself to a less capable device when you have better options. I think even the die hard 45 guys will agree that a 12ga with buckshot, or a 7.62x39 carbine with its longer sight radius and 20 round mags beats a 1911 at reasonable in home ranges everytime. Even a pistol caliber carbine is going to add 300 - 400 fps over the average pistol and extend the sight radius making it far easier to shoot well which is after all the first rule of shooting. *Ya gots to hit what you aims at*

[timkelley]

I'm with RobS.

[sundog]

Ah, close quarters combat handgun. Mine is a well used 1911 or Beretta Cougar, both in 45 acp. I am comfortable with either. For this use feed and function is more important than accuracy, in fact after cleaning and reassembly I fire a mag full and leave it in that condition. I know it works. Even in low light conditions with illuminated sights, all the illumination does is tell you where the sights are. Learning point and shoot can be quite helpful (still need to verify your target). My carry piece is the only loaded firearm in the house during condition green. I can easily get others and ammo if need be if for some reason things should prompt condition yellow at which point a trusted pump shotgun is standing by. People who live in condition yellow seriously need to seek a life style change.

[Char-Gar]

My home defense weapon is a 12 ga. shotgun. Either an old Ithica Police Special pump or a 20" bbl. double. There is always a handgun or two and they are some kind of 45. If a cast bullet is used it is a Keith type SWC.

If I can get to it, the shotgun will see action first. The pistol is so I can fight my way to the scattergun.

[Kraschenbirn]

3" S&W M24 loaded with 200 gr. Speer Gold Dots in the nightstand and a short-barreled Rem. 870 (#2 "Express" loads) behind the bookcase in my office/den right around the corner.

Shoot mostly 246 gr Lee RNs loaded to duplicate factory .44 Spl for practice/plinking.

Bill

[fredj338]

All that said, I keep a 4" M29 beside my bed with full power 240gr jhps. I guess I'll get a lot of penetration! The way I see it, something is better than nothing.
Probabley my fav. caliber & gun, but you would be better served w/ midrange loads for SD/HD. If you don't handload, the 210grWSTHP is a great SD load. Way easier to control for multiple shots & you may not connect w/ the first one.
Those still thinking they are safe w/ birdhsot in their cyl. bore riot guns should really go shoot something with them @ 21ft. Just not enough penetration to guarantee vitals on large attacker, especially one wearing heavy clothing. #4buckshot is a reasonable minimum. Enough mass per projectile to get to vitals. Anything that doesn't go thru drywall has got to be telling you it won't penetrate enough muscle, fat & bone to be a reliable stopper.

[Crash_Corrigan]

On my nightstand within reach is a Charter Arms Bulldog Pug .44 Special loaded with Mi Hec's 256 gr LSWC cast boolits over 6 gr of Unique. Embraced by a spring clip is my Baker 12 Gauge side by side with 20" bbls and loaded with Remington #4 buckshot. This SG is also kept between the bed and the wall clipped to the bedframe.

In the hall closet is a Norinco clone of the model '97 Winchester SG loaded with Fiocchi 00 buckshot (low recoil) and a sling holding another 25 rounds on it including some slugs.

Around the trailer in assorted hiding places are my Taurus 1911 loaded with Federal Hydra Shok 230 GR HP's, a Charter Arms 327 Magnum loaded w 100 GR HP's by Federal and a Ruger BH in .45 Colt loaded with cast 255 gr boolits.

But before anything is grabbed my dog Sgt. Rambo should have given me much advance warning of impending troubles.

I was away for a few days and I had made arrangements to have my neighbor lady take care of his needs. He would allow her into the house to give him food and water but would not allow her to take him out for a walk. Nor would he leave the house unguarded with her around to relieve himself outside. He made a mess in the kitchen but he stayed on the job!

A good dog and multiple NRA stickers on all windows and doors usually keeps BG's from even trying anything as most burglars are really not anxious to tangle with a gunowner nor their dog.

[sheepdog]

My home defense gun is a winchester defender 1300 with #4 buckshot but the pistol I keep loaded as a backup is a tokarev TT 33. Personally keeping a 40 S&W or 45 acp as personal defense seems a bit silly as a $50 flak jacket will stop both.

[jlchucker]

Remington 870 with #4 high brass birdshot. If the intruder survives that, and flees out onto my lawn, I'll give him a 50 yd sporting chance before I grab my 30-30 and save the taxpayers the cost of his trial, and simultaneously p***ing off the liberal leftist criminal-coddlers that have made a national mockery of the State that I live in.

[Longrange]

By the door I have a Coach gun in 12 gauge, by the bed Mosberg 500A1 12 Gauge, and the Sig 1911 Carry in .45 ACP loaded with Corbon. Primary house gun would be the shotun which is closer, the Sig will get me there.

:coffee:

[jnovotny]

Depends on the SG. Open or cyl bore riot guns spread shot very quickly, on the order of 1" per yard. So across "average" rooms fo 15f, that's a 5" pattern. Birdshot will NOT penetrate very deeply nor cause much mor ethan surface wounding w/ a 5" spread. Any other choke will do better, but a SG is a siege weapon IMO. Lock the door, call 911 & hunker down w/ the SG.
The problem comes in moving through your house, checking that noies, gathering a small child or older person, may require the use of the weak hand. Long guns are much more easily taken away in a close range confrontation. So IMO, any handgun of 9mm & up w/ good JHP, that you are comfortable w/ is a suitable HD choice. For years, mine was a 4" 357mag loaded w/ 158grLSWCHP+P 38sp. The wife was comfortable w/ that. TOday it's mu USP w/ weapon light, but that could change next month too.;) I don't load my own HD/SD ammo, I prefer high end factory stuff.

Better think again with NOT penetrate very deeply or suface wounding. Ever kill a pheasant with 7 shot at 30 yrds? That's 90 feet. Do some tests at the range with birdshot at 15 feet and see for yourself.

[fredj338]

Better think again with NOT penetrate very deeply or suface wounding. Ever kill a pheasant with 7 shot at 30 yrds? That's 90 feet. Do some tests at the range with birdshot at 15 feet and see for yourself.
You are likely shooting from a min. mod or imp-mod choke. Yes it does matter. BTW, a pheasant is not a 200# attacker wearing a heavy coat. You need about 3" of penetration to kill a pheasant stone dead w/ one or two pellets. You will need 8"-12" in heavy muscle & fat to get into vitals of an attacker & even multiple pellets to the heart or any other vital organ will not incapacitate a large animal. Again, if it doens't penetrate drywall, it won't be affective unless the attacker is well inside my comfort zone of 15ft.
Yes I have done quite a bit of testing as well as hunting. I've had pheasant take a full load of #6 on a wet morning & fly off to die 50yds away. Yes, the wet feathers help slow the shot penetration. These ribs section were shot w/ #4 buck & #6 bird @ 15ft! They were covered in two layers of denim & backed by a 1ga water jug. Note none of the #6 pellets passed through the rear of the ribcage on the right. That is 5 steps from a cyl bore 12ga 870. So nope, not relying birdshot of any size to do the job that at least #4 buck will do much better.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/ribs-1.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/6shot.jpg

[Village Idiot]

Bit of thread drift hear but…..something to think about.
Recently we had a bunch of break-ins in our area. It was a crew of druggies; the women drove and kept watch while the guys broke in. They would case places and look for single women and men or older couples with no kids, no dogs, homes/apartments without secondary dead bolts on the doors, trailers where the bedroom is at the other end of from the living area or 2 story places with the bedrooms upstairs. They would break into these places in the middle of the night while the people were sleeping. They would hit the living area for pocketbooks, wallets, change jars, and anything they could grab quietly. Most never knew anyone was in the house until the next morning when they woke. I have talked to 2 older couples and 1 single woman that were hit and never knew it until the next day. All believed prior to the event there was no way someone could break into their house while they were home without knowing it. I bring this up because some here talk about having loaded guns placed all over the house. I would be concerned that someone could break in and find one of those loaded weapons prior to me realizing they were there. I could then be facing an armed scumbag armed with one of my guns. As I said previously my wife has agreed to never confront anyone and take up a defensive position in the bedroom already arranged for such. Loaded guns in the house other than in her/our control could leave an opportunity for the scumbag to arm themselves.
Just food for thought
V.I.

[mpmarty]

Interesting thread. In a handgun I tend to favor anything with a "4" after the decimal point. My house guns are mostly 45s and 10mms. As to tactics, that's a different story. Our game plan is if someone breaks into our house it will be more than one person and my job is to "slip out the back jack" with my 308 semi auto and the wife to hit the panic switch after I'm out. This panic switch illuminates eight 300 watt lights two on each corner of the house covering all four sides from each corner. I will then plan to interdict anyone trying to leave the house. Those who plan to survive will need to work out the details with my wife who will be monitoring from inside with her choice of weapons.

[whisler]

Mine is a .357 loaded with Federal Hydro-shok and the wife's is .380 loaded with Win. Silver tips. We both qualified for CCW with the revolver and both shoot the .380 well.

[bbs70]

I keep a P-95 9mm in the nitestand with 124 grain golden sabers because I can't fine some 147 grain gold dots or HSTs
BTW Black Talons are old technology but still get the job done.

With 100s of thousands of dollars research being done to build the most effective man stopper bullets , it seems backward to want to use cast boolits in SD or HD siruations.

I have worked up a great 44mag boolit and load to down a large animal like a 600 pound bore hog but, doubt that it would be any more effective as a man stopper than a 357 mag with some HSTs or Gold Dots or a 9mm +P+ load with proper bullets.

I have the origional black talons in my 40, not the stuff they came up with later to relace them.
They might be old tech, but if something works don't try to fix it.:grin:
My neighbor did test firing at Olin and showed me some of the fired bullets, both hollow points and black talons.
My money is on the talons.:grin:

[7of7]

Personally, I like the FN FiveseveN. Very low recoil, 20 rd mag, and the factory HP ammo will go through heavy denim with no problem. They turn sideways in about 2 inches of penetration, with a bullet length of .750... that is quite a bit to have rotating sideways... Granted, it doesn't make a big hole,... however three or four small holes will work for me...
I do like having the early warning systems... golden retriever, and havanese... between the two, most likely won't even notice the monitored alarm system...

[Poohgyrr]

Like others already posted, what do we do well with. I have a .44 Special now, and a 16" Lever out of sight. The other pistol rounds work too, and the 870 isn't bad either.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive got a couple. Theres a 1911 on my night stand in the bedroom a ruger lcp with lazor grips in the night stand on the wifes side a beretta storm .40 in the livingroom and 6 loaded ars in a metal locker type gun safe in the bedroom and a 12 guage in the hall closet between the bedroom and the living room. Anyone up for a late night visit!!!!

[tuckerdog]

I worry about over penitration so I use 20 ga shotgun w/20" smoothbore slug bbl for hand gun j-frame .38 150grnswc 4grn unique.neighbors are close and dont want to shoot through walls

[Willbird]

I personally look at the 45 auto for self defense and with that I have a 45 ACP Springfield XD. As for a bullet if it were to be cast then I would either use a bullet with a large meplat such as the Lee 200 grain round nose flat point or the Lyman Devastator 185g hollow point.

Same gun here, mine stays loaded with 230 grain +P hollow points whether I carry it or put it in the nightstand drawer.

[AviatorTroy]

For visitors at the front door with poor manners, there's the .38 in the china cabinet with the FBI loads. The late night uninvited guests get greeted with the Mini-30 with Remington PSPs. Any unforseen problems in the middle of the night are resolved with the 1911 in my nightstand drawer with a clip full of 230gr Gold Dots.

I don't ever plan on needing any of this because I'm pretty sure nothing escapes the attention of my Boxer/Pit and my Wimey...

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh100/aviatortroy/Pups-1.jpg

[lonewelder]

+1 owners best friend

[jnovotny]

You are likely shooting from a min. mod or imp-mod choke. Yes it does matter. BTW, a pheasant is not a 200# attacker wearing a heavy coat. You need about 3" of penetration to kill a pheasant stone dead w/ one or two pellets. You will need 8"-12" in heavy muscle & fat to get into vitals of an attacker & even multiple pellets to the heart or any other vital organ will not incapacitate a large animal. Again, if it doens't penetrate drywall, it won't be affective unless the attacker is well inside my comfort zone of 15ft.
Yes I have done quite a bit of testing as well as hunting. I've had pheasant take a full load of #6 on a wet morning & fly off to die 50yds away. Yes, the wet feathers help slow the shot penetration. These ribs section were shot w/ #4 buck & #6 bird @ 15ft! They were covered in two layers of denim & backed by a 1ga water jug. Note none of the #6 pellets passed through the rear of the ribcage on the right. That is 5 steps from a cyl bore 12ga 870. So nope, not relying birdshot of any size to do the job that at least #4 buck will do much better.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/ribs-1.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/6shot.jpg

Would you want to be shot with a shotgun? Don't think so if one shot won't do it the other one will! Looks like a waste of good ribs to me.

[tcrocker]

Glock 22 with big dot night sights. Never us reloads for sd gives lawers some thing to harp on.

[fredj338]

Would you want to be shot with a shotgun? Don't think so if one shot won't do it the other one will! Looks like a waste of good ribs to me. No, but if I ever have to face BG w/ a SG, I hope he loads his w/ birdshot. Then I know I win that fight beyond 5 step w/ a brief visit to the ER for bandaids & antiseptic after.
Well, you are welcome to your opinion, at least be informed. $5 for the ribs was worth the test to prove to me birdshot is only marginal for SD/HD unless you like shooting them off the muzzle end. Pics don't lie, the birdshot does exactly what anyone that hunts w/ it knows it will FROM A RIOT/CYL CHOKE. While I do not want to be shot by anything, I hope if I have to face a SG armed attacker, he is foolish enough to use birdshot. I then know I win that fight at hallway distance..

[vanilla_gorilla]

Would you want to be shot with a shotgun? Don't think so if one shot won't do it the other one will! Looks like a waste of good ribs to me.

I don't want to be shot by a BB gun, either. That doesn't make a BB gun an adequate home defense weapon.

This one has been doing night (day time, since I work nights) duty for me most of the time.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b53/vanilla_gorilla911/gunz003.jpg

When it's actually dark outside, I usually switch to something with a mounted light.

[dogbert41]

http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad350/dogbert41/IMG_0890.jpg

30 rounds of 50 gr Vmax bullets behind 26 gr TAC.

[jim4065]

35 years ago I was shot (in the back) by a 12 gauge at 30 feet while wearing a light cotton jacket. Weighed about 200 at the time. None of the #4 pellets (not buck) penetrated far enough to be life threatening. I still carry a couple of dozen in my back without any great inconvenience.

My ex-wifes "boyfriend" was shot by another of his "girlfriends". The #6 shot from a 12 gauge hit his ribs and tore a "rat hole" through his lung before entering his heart. He turned and ran 50 yards back into the woods before dieing. This was at a range of about 10 feet.

You have to break 'em down - I'll stick with buckshot or bullets.

[fredj338]

35 years ago I was shot (in the back) by a 12 gauge at 30 feet while wearing a light cotton jacket. Weighed about 200 at the time. None of the #4 pellets (not buck) penetrated far enough to be life threatening. I still carry a couple of dozen in my back without any great inconvenience.

My ex-wifes "boyfriend" was shot by another of his "girlfriends". The #6 shot from a 12 gauge hit his ribs and tore a "rat hole" through his lung before entering his heart. He turned and ran 50 yards back into the woods before dieing. This was at a range of about 10 feet.

You have to break 'em down - I'll stick with buckshot or bullets.
Glad you survived that & thanks for proving my point. Had you been wearing a leather jacket, you might not even have those pellets in you. Birdshot is for those that have rarley killed anything bigger than, well a bird. If your point of going armed is to survive an attack, then why limit your chances by using the worst ammo choice? #4 buck will slow down enough after going through drywall to not cause a life threatening injury in most cases, yet is does penetrate enough in tissue to insure vitals are hit & that is the entire point isn't it?

[felix]

#4 Buck has been the standard for years. So, also the baseball bat. I actually used one once on something trying to enter a window. It works, and they don't bring their friends back for retribution, that is, if you DON'T call the cops. ... felix

[swallytrip]

4" Ruger GP100 and 135 grain Gold Dot short barrel factory ammo.

Same here except for some 125 grain hydrashock .38 +P+
And the glock 19 next to it stuffed with 16 Aguia IQ's,:Fire: if anyone remembers what IQ's are

[swallytrip]

I keep a P-95 9mm in the nitestand with 124 grain golden sabers because I can't fine some 147 grain gold dots or HSTs
BTW Black Talons are old technology but still get the job done.

With 100s of thousands of dollars research being done to build the most effective man stopper bullets , it seems backward to want to use cast boolits in SD or HD siruations.

I have worked up a great 44mag boolit and load to down a large animal like a 600 pound bore hog but, doubt that it would be any more effective as a man stopper than a 357 mag with some HSTs or Gold Dots or a 9mm +P+ load with proper bullets.

Not to mention the states that will basically hang you for defending yourself with your own handloads :groner:

[sundog]

ya know, I'm getting really freakin' pizzed at this idear that using your own handloads to defend yourself will land you in prison. Talk about an internet fantasy. Who is that guy that started this c#$p? Moassayood Ayyooob and some name like that? I have YET to see anything that supports this crazy notion.

[Centaur 1]

My bedroom handgun is a S&W model19 .357 Mag, but no cast bullets for home defense though. At the range it does shoot tl-158-swc really well with 3.6 grains of Bullseye. In all reality if something bad happened, I'd hand the revolver to my wife and use my 870 12 gauge that I keep full of buckshot.

[Gohon]

Brian Pearce has a article in the latest Handloader edition about Handloads and Self-Defense where he also states, of course in politer terms, the wives tale about not using handloads for defense is a bunch of BS. Every time I ask someone to show me documentation of such a incident they never can. Personally I put that notion along with a shotgun loaded with bird shot as a great defense and the tooth fairy in the same category.

I think I might also add to that the notion that racking the slide on a shotgun scares the beejeebers out of the bad guy. For one thing most pot heads never heard that sound and secondly it just gave your position away to the bad guy.

Only reason I don't choose handloads for personal defense is reliability. I trust my handloads but I trust factory loads even more for self defense though I would not hesitate to use them if needed..

[beaker]

Used to have a sledge hammer, graduated to a baseball bat, then it's a 45 auto. Figured at 6'3 I can hit anything in my bedroom with that bat. Unless they're armored I'm going to hear crunching too. Got a lot of guns but dropping a mag into a 45 is pretty damn easy and quick when your adrenalin is going. Want something easy to use and big enough to wrap my paws around, plus a stiff trigger as well.

[Thumbcocker]

"He smartened right up when the action on the 870 got worked--from meth-cranked trailer trash to Rhodes Scholar in an elapsed 2.4 seconds. A highly educational device, on many levels--one that instills wisdom and teaches respect like few other mechanisms."

A LEO friend once explaned that to me as "EVERYBODY speaks shotgun."

[82nd airborne]

Be VERY careful. Do not load a defense weapon with hand loads. it is very hard to get the case ruled as self defense in the court room if you use hand loads. shotguns are good. i use a mossberg 500 with an improved cylinder choke, #4 turkey loads. I have seen men trained to use handguns miss at rediculously close ranges when the stress level was at its max.

[jim4065]

Why crank the action? Just shoot the idiot. I don't understand warnings. If you really think his life is worth saving, then I suppose you could tell him to back away - maybe it sounds good in court, anyway. I never have thought that human life was particularly "precious". What have we got - 5 Billion people on this world? Selective skimming of the gene pool ain't gonna hurt a thing.

Edit: And please don't tell me that means I'm not a Christian. We're not authorized to judge.

[XWrench3]

my favorite is the old tried and true 45acp, but i do not use cast boolits in it for home/personal defense. i use premium jacketed hollow points, either remington golden sabres, hornady xtp's, or winchester silvvertips. i want to be reasonably sure they open up inside a person, to help prevent over penatration. transfering energy, knocking a person off their feet, hydraulic shock, and/or stopping the treat has absoloutly NOTHING to do with my choice!:kidding::Fire::bigsmyl2:

[Gohon]

Be VERY careful. Do not load a defense weapon with hand loads. it is very hard to get the case ruled as self defense in the court room if you use hand loads.

Prove it.............you can't. That's the whole point. That notion is just a wives tale. There are no known court cases supporting such a thing but if you can show a link to such a case I'll certainly eat crow. A friend of a friend to your cousin doesn't count. As Pearce points out, if that were a problem then a lawyer would also say because you used a 44 magnum instead of a 22 rimfire then you must have intended to do excessive bodily harm. It's simply absurd.

[felix]

You'se guys are soooo tough! I've known two folks who have relevant stories
appropriate to tell here.

One was my next door neighbor in Houston. He was a very private person,
typically not saying a word when we met during a pass-by, drive-by. Often
he would not even provide a gesture to Pat (my wife) and/or me. His wife came
over at least three/four times a week to trade stuff like prepared food,
recipies, or just plain conversation. I brought up the idea about the
stand-offishness one time, and she indicated his "attitude" adjustment happened
after coming home from VietNam and that it was not personal to us in the least.
Knowing this, I started taking the initiative to meet him on his terms whenever
he mowed the lawn, repaired the house, etc. He very gradually opened up by
stating he was the mini-gun operator on a copter. He began to love the "job"
so much that it became an obsession in that he would order the pilots to take
obsene chances in getting him the view he "needed". He was involved in several
crashes that his survivors blamed his antics as the cause. Most all of his
associates during those eight (8) years got purple hearts, including himself.
He could care less; he loved his job so much and nobody but nobody was going to
take it away from him. Keep in mind the ground bosses enjoyed this show because
nobody around (ground troops) was taking the initiative at that time to do their
"job" with any enthusiasm whatsoever. One time, across the street, he was
digging out a willow tree by hand...no power tools in sight. I suggested I
could call a friend who had a personal backhoe that was big enough so he could
have the tree out by the end of the day, plus having it all chopped up by
enlisting neighbors using their chainsaws. He began CRYING and went into the
house. No excuse me-s, no nothin', just gone without a trace. His wife came
over about an hour later and explained the truth about the termoil within. He
was simple doing retribution for all the termoil and death he caused. There is
no need to repeat the statistics, but I can tell you here that it is beyond
comprehension. As a hint, can you spell Hitler's gas chambers?

The next guy's experience will be discussed later, should that be necessary to
get further the "drift" of what I am suggesting. ... felix

[tuckerdog]

Ditch the handgun and get a 12 ga shotgun. Pump, autoloader,or side by side. Load the thing with 6,7 or 8 shot, that way you won't penatrate your walls and your nieghbors walls, He'll thank you for that. Trust me bird shot at 10 to 12 feet will be all you ever need.

agree 100% I usually put inexpensive whatever is on sale in a mossberg 500 and figure at room distance its still basicly a slug (smooth bore slug bbl)

[archmaker]

I want a weapon big enough to do the job, and one I can operate without having to think about it. Right now I am more sure of myself with a SBH in 44Mag, working with the 1911 right now, and getting close where I can use it without thinking. (Practice and IDPA matches)

But the SBH, I have shot for decades in IHMSA, Bowling Pin Matches, and just plinking. Really if you think about it I have been shooting that style since I played on a ranch as a kid with a cap gun.

Not an expert, but when you point a gun at a person you want to know that you have something in your hand (no 12 oz 22LR), and that everything else you know will leave you. I say one thing to myself when shooting under stress "Front sight!!". Under stress it is surprising how dumb you can become.

[shdwlkr]

Home defense starts with a 12 gauge and buckshot
As to working the action so the jerk knows you have a means of defense if it works for you then do it, if not make sure a load is in the chamber and fire. Working the action just might give the baddie the chance to know where you are and unload on you.
As to the use of hand loads and self defense seems to me on another site it was challenged by a lawyer and there was no case found in the whole country where someone was convicted for using hand loads. Now that doesn't mean that someone using handloads because they were mad at someone got off, it means when in fear of your life, family or friends there was no case of the person being convicted.
Felix
Your neighbor is in need of going in for counseling with a vet who is a counselor and get his life back. There are a lot of vets who got into their work in service and have gone in and got help to get back their lives. I am currently working on my master's in Mental Health Counseling for that very reason. To many have done so much for this country and have not got the help they need.
As to shooting a jerk who breaks into your house and it is either you or them that is hurt, I am sorry but I am going to do all I can to make sure it is not me or someone I love.

[felix]

No argument there. There is a mental distinction between murder and family defence. Unfortunately it is getting muddied up more over time, instead of vice versa. ... felix

[82nd airborne]

[QUOTE=Gohon;896950]Prove it.............you can't. That's the whole point. That notion is just a wives tale. There are no known court cases supporting such a thing but if you can show a link to such a case I'll certainly eat crow. QUOTE]

for 20$ you can get a box of factory hp's and play it safe. in all three concealed weapons courses ive taken, they have shown cases where people where put away for something that simple. Im not saying its right, but you might as well not take the risk if you dont have to. im sure it depends on where you reside too. in rural arkansas its probably not as big of a deal as other places. here if someone is in youre house uninvited youre kindof expected to take care of the situation to protect your family.

[82nd airborne]

Felix
Your neighbor is in need of going in for counseling with a vet who is a counselor and get his life back. There are a lot of vets who got into their work in service and have gone in and got help to get back their lives..

Please just dont recomend the ptsd meds that the VA hands out, unless you want the vet to hate life.

[shdwlkr]

82nd ariborne
never said go to the VA did I, if you read my post I said to go to a vet who is a counselor. The VA has some good points but it doesn't meet all the needs of all vets all the time.

Please list the cases where someone put in jail for using handloads in self defense. My ccw instructor said that he knew of no case where it has happened, said it could change at anytime with the way things are going in this country.

As to pstd there is more than one way to handle that issue and if one thing doesn't work then complain and if the VA doesn't want to change then go to another doctor and spend your money and get the care you need. Many civilians have gone through life issues that have left them with pstd and they work through it just fine.
The VA is not the best place for everything all the time just like there is no one hospital that can treat all the illnesses of this life.

[goste]

While I carry a 1911, or a HiPower on duty, my under pillow gun is a Smith dao 9mm. I use Gold dot's, as thats what I'm currently issued. I fell into the no reload myth years ago, but I can't seem to break the habit. I suppose as a LEO if I get into a shooting, It will be greatly scrutinized, as our policys are very specific,( as to issue ammo, and what not), and I guess it's sorta a holdover.

IIRC, the one instance, of use of handloads, for self defense, that anyone could ever find, had more to do with gunshot residue and distance, as I BELIVE, it was not a total justified self defense shooting. I may be wrong tho. I've never read an actual case where it ever came up, and despite reading many challenges, on many internet forums, to " show me a case", I have never heard of one ,(other than the gunshot residue one).

[fredj338]

agree 100% I usually put inexpensive whatever is on sale in a mossberg 500 and figure at room distance its still basicly a slug (smooth bore slug bbl)

Again, you haven't shot much w/ that combo I'll bet. Even a casual experiemnt will show you that birdshot, upto #4, just does not act as a "solid" @ typ across the room or down the hall ranges. At 1"/3ft spread, that is 5"-6" spread. If you are good/lucky enough, to alnd all on the target, that is NOT lethal if the guy is big & wearing a heavy coat. Maybe you missed the pictoral evidence in post #47?

Working the action just might give the baddie the chance to know where you are and unload on you.
This is so hollywood. Yeah, maybe, but the other side is the BG is intent on hurting you & you have now told him where you are & what you are armed with. He is hoping you put BS in it because he is armed w/ a handgun & suitable ammunition to kill you with & will, as his leather jacket absorbes the first blast & then he kills you w/ his handgun. Good plan, just not mine.

Please list the cases where someone put in jail for using handloads in self defense. My ccw instructor said that he knew of no case where it has happened, said it could change at anytime with the way things are going in this country.
WHile it has likely never happened, what probably has & will, is the family or the surviving BG will sue for damages in civl court. It only takes the majority. It's pretty easy to convince non gun folks that you were going above & beyond by using your own "deadlier handloads" to shoot said BG. WHy bother? You guys that think you can build a better SD round should apply for patents & start selling it. Reality, you can't. You get nothing more using a handload than a good factory load for SD/HD & you are going to just maybe skate by in the empending civil suit that almost always comes from a SD/HD shooting. A box of 50rds will last you at least 5yrs, even rotating the ammo out every year (yeah, old wives tail too, but I do it). I don't know, $6 a year for that small peice of mind, priceless.

[Lloyd Smale]

i think what felix is hinting toward is that taking a life even to defend yourself is a life changine event. It will be with you the rest of your life. Some claim to be hard enough to deal with it but in truth few are. Lots of rambos out there that talk the talk but have never walked the walk. As to the VA ive got freinds that have had alot of good help from them. Maybe its just a matter on what VA institude you go to. The one up here is great and the people really care. Me, im not one that sits around dreaming up senerios where i have to defend myself. I know me and know what im capeable of and am prepared for whatever happens but pray it never does. What ammo you used and what the lawyers come to terms with will be a minor part of it in the big picture. Bottom line is your killing someone not doing a penetration test or comparing bullet wound channel performance. At in house ranges about anything will work.

[shdwlkr]

Llyod
I have been in many VA hospitals and yes they are much better than they were 35 years ago but some still need to come up on the human care factor. But then so do many other hospitals so that is not a negative in my mind.
As to shooting another person I hope to never have to but know it if comes down to me or them I will everything I can to make sure it isn't me dead on the floor. As to using handloads or factory I just don't think I will have time to see what is in the shotgun, pistol or rifle when I need to protect my self or family or friends. In court yes I can see where factory ammo would be better from the standpoint of being sued in civil court by the baddies family.
Funny thing is I was just checking some of the loaded firearms around the place and they are all loaded with factory stuff so I guess I am ready for if and when it happens but sure don't go looking for a chance to find out just how well they work or I work under pressure. I am more the kind of guy that likes to go poke holes in paper, cans, watermelons, tomatoes and such is a lot more fun and can be made to pretty hard to do when you change the range, what you are using and how well visible they are or are not as the case my be. I have even used cheap suckers as targets.
I just don't think some here really understand what happens when you kill another person and the events that happen in your life after. No I will not mention what happens but lets just say the movies have it all wrong most of the time.
What you have to worry about which until recently I didn't have as an issue is if using some really good ammo and it goes outside of the house and hits a neighbor, as the saying goes what are you going to do now? One reason I like the shotgun and buckshot it stays in the house and my kids don't have to worry about dad shooting them either as it is stopped by the material in the walls.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I carry a Ruger SP 101 in 357 mag still waiting for MiHec to make my HP mold . . . until then I use reloaded 158 jhp. It rests beside the bed while I'm sleeping, my wife has a Ruger Security Six 357 mag . . . (I also have a double 12 gauge w #1 buck)

I have the right to use lethal force to stop an attacker (to stop the threat) whether a baseball bat or a 50 bmg! Anybody want to tell me that just because I reload my own 357 mags that somehow they are more destructive than a factory loaded 50 bmg? Come on people use some common sense! Dead is dead . . . does it matter if I use a frying pan, fireplace poker or a 12 gauge, if the perp is dead, I have stopped the threat!

[smilie=s:

[82nd airborne]

82nd ariborne
never said go to the VA did I, if you read my post I said to go to a vet who is a counselor. The VA has some good points but it doesn't meet all the needs of all vets all the time.

Please list the cases where someone put in jail for using handloads in self defense. My ccw instructor said that he knew of no case where it has happened, said it could change at anytime with the way things are going in this country.

As to pstd there is more than one way to handle that issue and if one thing doesn't work then complain and if the VA doesn't want to change then go to another doctor and spend your money and get the care you need. Many civilians have gone through life issues that have left them with pstd and they work through it just fine.
The VA is not the best place for everything all the time just like there is no one hospital that can treat all the illnesses of this life.

shdwlkr,
I hope i didnt offend you, i wasnt trying to be abbrasive in the least. i think im saying the same think i just didnt word it well. my point is that meds are rarely the answer to the problem. i treat my issues with my faith, family, friends and the occasional busch light. youre efforts are noble and vets would benefit largely to have more like you. thanks
on the handloading for self defence topic, the way i wrote it infered that i knew it for a fact. also bad writing. i have never really researched it because i just use winchester rangers and turkey loads and call it good. I had just heard about it in various ccw classes. that doesnt mean they know what they are talking about. but, if there is a chance i could loose my family just by trying to protect them, ill not take my chances.
I hope i didnt offend anyone, i just threw a personal opinion out there, but wrote it as more of a statement. the members of this forum have been a huge resource for me, and i dont mean to cross anyone, sorry and thanks.

[Ed K]

Wouldn't the reload issue go like this: "I didn't want to use those cop-killer Black Talons in the safe so..."

[rickt]

As far as using handloads for self defense NOT ME! If you ever have to protect you or your family using deadly force you will be a basket case for a while. Why add to it by giving the Lawyer that wants to hang you more ammunition? Think about it! Twenty bucks for ammo or another few thousand for your Lawyer. The BG's Lawyer is going to make him out to be a pillar of the community and you as a crazy that spent hours hand crafting that one bullet just to kill or injure that poor young man! Get the idea now? Is it worth it to you?

[357shooter]

I carry 38 Special with handloaded wadcutters. No concerns on my part with handloads. It's all overblown hype and speculation as far as I'm concerned. Don't care to change your mind, or for you to try and change my mind. (for those that disagree) For the time being it's a free country and it's our right to use a gun for defense.

Heck, maybe we should all carry mace or a taser instead of a nasty gun loaded with a JHP designed to expand, inflict maximum damage and have maximum stopping power. But that's our God given right, using factory ammo or handloads doesn't matter, just defend the family and the home.

Same for HD.

[jim4065]

The degree to which you feel the after-effects of shooting someone else is surely both personal and variable. I have two friends who shot someone in civilian life (and were close enough to discuss it freely) - one was not bothered at all while the other was affected for awhile. They're both good people - not "Rambo types". If, after careful reflection, you've made the decision to shoot to protect yourself and/or others, then it's probably counter-productive to be having second thoughts during crunch time. In fact - it may be best to not even have a loaded gun around - if you're not 100% mentally ready to shoot to kill. Just my opinion, and NO, I've never shot anyone.

[hansumtoad]

.45 LW Commander I carried in RVN. Worked then. Works now. It generally doesn't matter what you hit them with... its where you hit them.

That aid, in addition to the porr misguided and underpriviledged miscreat who accidently broke into your home at 2AM, we've got a legal system with which to deal. The odds are all against you for protcecting your home and famiy.

So... it would be a SG with a load of 4's, 5's, 5's. 7.5, 8s or 9s..whatever was handy. And for the fellow who stated that a SG with birdshot wouldn't penetrate at 15' and leave a 5" surface wound.... well, you hold onto that, Sparky. The coroner's call them "rat hole" wounds. Bottom line is that "Your honor, I WAS IN FEAR OF MY LIFE. I told him two times 'Don't come any closer, I've got a gun. I'm sorry he was dead when the ambulance arrived". One shot and dead men don't contradict your testimony. One shot and the DA can't go after "excessive use of deadly force". One shot and a civil suit isn't going very far either.

I wish you well.

[82nd airborne]

The situation in which you were forced to pull the trigger seems to be a huge factor in how one deals with taking another life after the fact. if everything is cut and dry its easier. if its a cloudy situation, it tends to linger for some time, with the "what ifs". not pleasant either way. if there are rambo types, previously mentioned who welcome the chance, good luck getting one good nights sleep afterward....

[rickt]

I agree with jim4065 If you are not 100% mentally ready to shoot to kill you shouldn't even carry for personal defense. My personal choice is a Glock 17 with Federal High Shock. Pepper spray will get you killed just as fast as if you hesitate shooting when the decision is made for you. About hand loads I personally think there would be more legal problems than it is worth. There is lots of good factory ammo for personal defense.

[357shooter]

The idea that handloads would pose legal problems is not based on any fact at all. I almost hate posting this, but the myth continues.

There are no legal problems or concerns except what people have invented in their imaginations.

Sorry for the vent, of course everyone should make their own choice. But dudes, there is NO LEGAL PROBLEM. It's an internet myth. It may have started in an article or book, but it's been elevated to truth and become accepted as common wisdom by many because of the internet.

I did hear though that an email virus is going to infect all the computers in the world at 10 on Friday...have you ever heard that one before? Another interenet myth.

Sorry again for the vent.

[shdwlkr]

82nd Airborne
No offense was taken, I do know that the meds that vets get prescribed sometimes work and sometimes they don't and never get the idea that there is only one way to deal with issues. What I would like to do is take most of the people who tell vets that they don't know what they are talking about through a mock battle with all the right effects and see just what they come away with. I know they would be much better prepared to talk to vets and issues.
Yes I know I am strange, but I have been that way for many decades, you see I have a mind that never stops asking questions and coming up with useful answers.

I wished I could be better trained on some of the issues but that is why I am dropping almost $90,000 on my masters degree so I get more questions and few more answers. Ha Ha
My goal is to help vets to have a better life, don't care if they are still in, only a family member of a vet or just a close friend if the vet is upsetting them then it is time to come see a counselor and try and find one who is vet so that you have some common ground to start on and when you start talking they don't think you are nuts, it couldn't have been that bad, or that you just plain don't know what you are talking about and have been watching to much TV. Guess where I got those comments?

As to the question of individuals being tried for shooting someone with a firearm in defense of home and family and ones or self I don't think there is one. Where you could get you behind in a jam is in civil court by those left behind who were related to the jerk, but then I am not sure just how it would go if you brought in a good firearms expert that could prove your reloads were no more powerful than factory or even a little less. Don't want to find out either and that is why my home defense rounds are factory now if it happens while I am out walking in the country well then it is my hand loads and they are loaded for the biggest thing I might run into which could be a grizzly and I sure would like to not even then meet one.

As to having a loaded firearm and being ready mentally to do the baddies in the answer is yes you have to be ready to end a life if it means you get to be around this earth for a few more days, weeks, months and years. If you can not see yourself killing another and prefer to be a victim then don't have a firearm around loaded or not as it will only be useful to the baddie who doesn't care if you live or die.

I am going to be teaching my daughter in June how to shoot a pistol and we have already gone over the shoot don't shoot deal and she has decided that it is better for the baddies to be bleeding and dead instead of her or her kids or husband.

[82nd airborne]

shdwlkr,
if there is ever a way i can help with this endeavor, let me know, id be glad to help. ive got a ton of pictures if you need them for you simulation, sounds like a good idea.
aaron

[BruceB]

The hype around this question is always astonishing to me.

I made several decisions years ago:

-I would carry an effective firearm, and USE IT if necessary.

-It would be loaded with top-quality factory ammunition, except when carrying "in the field" for recreational use....but I would be perfectly confident that my handloads would perform as-needed for anything.

-I would minimize my legal exposure to the greatest possible extent.

You will not go to jail just because you used handloads in a defensive shooting. You MAY go to jail because of how a jury perceives your character.

I have served on juries, and you had better believe me when I say that things which may appear totally irrelevant CAN and WILL alter jury decisions. Jury-room discussions are not recorded, and how and why they arrive at a result are not a matter of legal knowledge, meaning that NO PRECEDENTS exist. Juries can be led, pushed or otherwise directed onto paths which may be far from what the other participants in the trial anticipate or expect.

The vagaries of jury thought are too unpredictable for my peace of mind. Using factory ammunition when I head out "with intent to be armed" removes one possible route for some activist antigunner in the jury to poison the rest of the group. That alone is plenty of justification for the use of commercial ammunition.

The technical quality of my handloads versus factory loads doesn't merit consideration. Either type is adequate, but the factory stuff doesn't offer an avenue to paint us as wild-eyed nuts fabricating "special" man-killing rounds in our basements.

THIS is the issue, in my experience and belief.

[EMC45]

I read Pierce's article and it was well written. I also have read Masaad's postings over on THR and I honestly believe he is a paid shill for the ammo companies! I remember him advocating, a few years back, that to properly break in a defensive handgun you needed to put 2-300 rounds of your chosen carry ammo through it!! Say what?!?!?! Also I saw him arguing his point about handloads for SD over on THR and some people were just eating it up! Like pierce said if you shot someone with a 44Mag as opposed to a 22Mag could the Jury/DA find you you "more" guilty?!?! In my state we have "Castle Doctrine"! That means I can kill a home invader and his family CANNOT take civil or legal recourse against me! And if he survives (not likely) he, nor his family, can take ANY legal or civil recourse against me either! Let it be known though, shooting someone is the last thing I would want to do. It carries weight with it. I will defend myself/family/kids. I am fully prepared to use deadly force if need be. I have had to present my pistol one time (1911 loaded with 230gr. FMJ ball) and was fully prepared to use it. It involved a trespasser on my brother's property who had no good reason to be there.

[shdwlkr]

Masaad is just a big mouth in my idea of what a knowledgeable firearm expert should be . I read somewhere that he was called in as an expert witness for the defense and almost cost them the case because of his mistatements.

82nd Airborne
I just might take you up on the offer and put together a slide show for folks to see just what real life is in the military and what happens when the sh** hits the fan.
I have a residency to go to this July and I am sure it will be coming up as to why I think that you have to have walked the walk to do a good job as a counselor for vets. I am an old man by many standards today and it has taken me almost 40 years to come to this decision to become a mental health counselor and I didn't make it quickly or not think it through.

EMC45
I do fire a large number of copper jacketed bullets in my new firearms to smooth out the rifling but can't tell you how many that is as it is based more on to me when the action starts to work the way I want and smooth enough for me. Sometimes that might be 100 rounds and sometimes it might be several hundred rounds. I even have one firearm that is a smokeless powder firearm that has never seen a jacketed bullet.
Masaad was basing it on what many see as the minimum number of rounds to be fired before the rifling is smoothed out, meaning that all the little rough spots from the cutting of the rifling are cleaned up. You take care of this by using a kit that I can not think of at the moment that has bullets that have a sand paper like substance on them and it just keeps getting finer and finer until there is nothing on the bullet. Seems to me you only get 50 rounds and that is like 10 rounds of each weight of sand paper like material and then you are done. This kind of thing makes sense to me as if the bore is in any rougher shape you should send it back for a new barrel.

BruceB
I think you and I see this the same way it is not the way or who loaded the bullet but more in how the jury sees it. From what I can find it is the civil lawsuit that can come from a shooting that can get you in real trouble from a shooting. That is after you realize you killed someone and the police and all that pressure.
If it comes down to my using one of firearms with my reloads or trying to find a factory round you had better believe I will fire my loads and they will work because they are made to hit what I aim at with my strength and experience shooting paper, tin cans and game animals.
I hope to never find out what happens but I will not be a victim if I can help it and if not I will do my best to be the one that is hurt least. If I have nothing better than a frying pan you can believe I will put it to the best use I can and it gets me killed at least I died fighting.
NEVER BE A WILLING VICTIM PERIOD yep I did yell, it is that important to understand.
I can understand never wanting a firearm in your home but that is no reason to be a victim.

[casterofboolits]

My SD handgun is a Colt Combat Commander loaded with factory 230 HP's.

My backup in my puter room is a Witness 38 Super loaded with Winchester Silver Tips. 18 rds in the mag.

I prefer factory ammo for reliability. Having competed in IPSC, I know my reloads work as I burned in excess of 6,000 rounds a year for for 23 years.

[Gohon]

You take care of this by using a kit that I can not think of at the moment that has bullets that have a sand paper like substance on them and it just keeps getting finer and finer until there is nothing on the bullet

That would be Tubbs Final Finish.

[EMC45]

Masaad is just a big mouth in my idea of what a knowledgeable firearm expert should be . I read somewhere that he was called in as an expert witness for the defense and almost cost them the case because of his mistatements.

82nd Airborne
I just might take you up on the offer and put together a slide show for folks to see just what real life is in the military and what happens when the sh** hits the fan.
I have a residency to go to this July and I am sure it will be coming up as to why I think that you have to have walked the walk to do a good job as a counselor for vets. I am an old man by many standards today and it has taken me almost 40 years to come to this decision to become a mental health counselor and I didn't make it quickly or not think it through.

EMC45
I do fire a large number of copper jacketed bullets in my new firearms to smooth out the rifling but can't tell you how many that is as it is based more on to me when the action starts to work the way I want and smooth enough for me. Sometimes that might be 100 rounds and sometimes it might be several hundred rounds. I even have one firearm that is a smokeless powder firearm that has never seen a jacketed bullet.
Masaad was basing it on what many see as the minimum number of rounds to be fired before the rifling is smoothed out, meaning that all the little rough spots from the cutting of the rifling are cleaned up. You take care of this by using a kit that I can not think of at the moment that has bullets that have a sand paper like substance on them and it just keeps getting finer and finer until there is nothing on the bullet. Seems to me you only get 50 rounds and that is like 10 rounds of each weight of sand paper like material and then you are done. This kind of thing makes sense to me as if the bore is in any rougher shape you should send it back for a new barrel.

BruceB
I think you and I see this the same way it is not the way or who loaded the bullet but more in how the jury sees it. From what I can find it is the civil lawsuit that can come from a shooting that can get you in real trouble from a shooting. That is after you realize you killed someone and the police and all that pressure.
If it comes down to my using one of firearms with my reloads or trying to find a factory round you had better believe I will fire my loads and they will work because they are made to hit what I aim at with my strength and experience shooting paper, tin cans and game animals.
I hope to never find out what happens but I will not be a victim if I can help it and if not I will do my best to be the one that is hurt least. If I have nothing better than a frying pan you can believe I will put it to the best use I can and it gets me killed at least I died fighting.
NEVER BE A WILLING VICTIM PERIOD yep I did yell, it is that important to understand.
I can understand never wanting a firearm in your home but that is no reason to be a victim.

The article I read was about problem-free feeding in your handguns for reliability sake.

[rickt]

+1 for BruceB in Nevada !!!! I think you and I are the only ones that think to CYA from all directions !

[357shooter]

+1 for BruceB in Nevada !!!! I think you and I are the only ones that think to CYA from all directions !
Just from my own point of view, yes. I get the point, just don't agree with the judgement made by you guys.

It's not that I don't try to covery myself, but I also try not to make absurd decisions either.

So my point it, others get the point. Just happen to believe it's doesn't hold water. YMMV

ttyl

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I prefer factory ammo for reliability. Having competed in IPSC, I know my reloads work as I burned in excess of 6,000 rounds a year for for 23 years.

I'm confused . . . IF factory ammo is more reliable (Big word is if!) then why would you not want to use the most reliable in competition?

I still believe that a HP is the best for personal protection, and I do reload my own jhp that I carry, I'd use cast but I'm still waiting for my mold for 357 . . . I do use MiHec's H&G 503 in my new Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan 44 Mag, that will make and Owie!

[smilie=s:

[Dan Cash]

..... Trust me bird shot at 10 to 12 feet will be all you ever need.

Sorry, I don't. You sound like a gun rag warior and from your comment on wall penetration or lack therof, you surely don't know what you are talking about.

[dudel]

G17 with factory jacket. On the other side is S&W 38Spl with factory JHP P+

[dudel]

I'm confused . . . IF factory ammo is more reliable (Big word is if!) then why would you not want to use the most reliable in competition?


Cost? I'd hate to have to pay for 6000 factory rounds.

[dudel]

[QUOTE=fredj338;897163You guys that think you can build a better SD round should apply for patents & start selling it. Reality, you can't. You get nothing more using a handload than a good factory load for SD/HD & you are going to just maybe skate by in the empending civil suit that almost always comes from a SD/HD shooting. A box of 50rds will last you at least 5yrs, even rotating the ammo out every year (yeah, old wives tail too, but I do it). I don't know, $6 a year for that small peice of mind, priceless.[/QUOTE]

+1 Fred. For all those who build their own SD ammo, do you put it through all the tests that commerical ammo makers do? You've tested your loads against different fabics into gelatin? You've tested at different temperatures? You've tested for over/under penetration? You've tested for fragmentation and weight retention? You've tested for expansion? What are your credentials for conducting these tests? You get the idea. Now, do you really want to answer those questions in a civil suit?

Commerical ammo means you don't have to answer those questions. With all the bucks I've saved reloading (and casting); I can certainly afford one box of commerical ammo a year (or every 5 years). My SD rounds are what the local LEOs use. No more, no less. Just trying to stack the odds in my favor AFTER the shooting.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Like I said in post #90 I have the right to defend myself, at least here in the state of Arizona, I prefer to use a gun either a snub nosed 357 or 44 mag, but a 12ga will also get the job done! . . . How many people have ever heard of all that testing being done on poker irons & fry pans, or baseball bats even . . . dead is dead! The threat is stopped!

Here in the great state of AZ we also have the "Castle Doctrine" I have the RIGHT to DEFEND myself and mine! Somebody breaks into my home, and I catch them there, there will be shots fired!

We also still have a CCW permit, although in two months that will not be needed to carry discreetly, nor is it needed on your own property . . . but my point is it is a "Weapon" permit, not a "gun" permit, people can die in alot of ways, and still be dead!

I fully understand that there is a lawyer attached to ever boolit (or bullet) that goes down a barrel . . . but I have NEVER seen a case where a person was convicted when it was just because it was reloaded ammo . . . there was a case of a guy who was convicted if I remember right . . . that did use reloaded ammo, but it was his wife that he supposedly shot . . . and he said that she shot herself by accident, and they could not prove that as there is something in commercial ammo that would have left a trace on her if it had been that close to her, but was not found since it was reloaded ammo.

But if somebody feels comfortable with either type of ammo, that is what they should practice with . . . if anybody decides to carry different ammo than they practice with, they better know how they shoot differently also.

I regards to the price of buying ammo compared to reloading for competition . . . I'm sure that if a reloaded round was to misfire on the critical shot . . . that the cost would seem small . . . ! I have never had a failure in my reloads which I have been doing on and off for 20+ years . . . I also have had bad manufactured ammo, I'd rather trust something I put together, that is why I reload.

But to each their own . . .

[357shooter]

+1 Fred. For all those who build their own SD ammo, do you put it through all the tests that commerical ammo makers do? You've tested your loads against different fabics into gelatin? You've tested at different temperatures? You've tested for over/under penetration? You've tested for fragmentation and weight retention? You've tested for expansion? What are your credentials for conducting these tests? You get the idea. Now, do you really want to answer those questions in a civil suit?

Commerical ammo means you don't have to answer those questions. With all the bucks I've saved reloading (and casting); I can certainly afford one box of commerical ammo a year (or every 5 years). My SD rounds are what the local LEOs use. No more, no less. Just trying to stack the odds in my favor AFTER the shooting.So you believe all the marketing hype from the factories on how great their ammo is? Or do you test it, are you qualified... You points are in fact pointless. I'm trying to ignore this thread is it can't get better, only worse as folks have made up their minds and someone else trying to change it is a bit offensive. Especially when nothing new is brought up, as if no one ever thought of it before.

If you really wanted to avoid the civil suit/questions, you'd carry a taser, trying to convince folks that the ammo matters (legally) is a waste of time. It doesn't.

[pistolman44]

On my night stand sits a compact Colt .45Auto and by my TV chair is a custom 5" 45auto with a 10rd mag. All loaded with Blazer 230gr. From what I have read lately you should never use your reloaded ammo in a self defence gun. Because if you shoot someone with your reloads the lawyers can claim that you made this ammo to kill someone. Something like that. So I use factory ammo to be safe.

[jim4065]

:groner:

[357shooter]

:groner:
Well said! LOL

I'm looking at the options to remove this thread from the subscriptions, it's like scratching a scab. One more reply just can't be helped not matter how it hurts.

UPDATE: I found it, it's gone. Let me apologize for all that I said, all that I thought, and just in case I reply again for anything I might say. Just in this thread though... LOL All my other posts are pretty good.

[fredj338]

Well said! LOL

I'm looking at the options to remove this thread from the subscriptions, it's like scratching a scab. One more reply just can't be helped not matter how it hurts.

UPDATE: I found it, it's gone. Let me apologize for all that I said, all that I thought, and just in case I reply again for anything I might say. Just in this thread though... LOL All my other posts are pretty good.
And so you keep scratching?:brokenima
Hey, your life, use what you want. Your decision though should be based on facts, not fantasy. Fact: civil court is not criminal court. I am sure you never hear of the civil cases lost for this or that sum of money. Fact: you are likely to get sued after a shooting. Either the person you shot, if he lives, say from the 12ga BS (sorry, couldn't resist) or his family WILL sue you. Have you done everything right to win that 50.1% margin? There is more to SD/HD than what gun & ammo you choose. It's always going to be. You can be 100% right in your shooting & still lose the criminal as well as the civil charges. Think about that & give yourself the best chance to survive both.

[yarro]

The biggest threat from using hand loads for self defense is if you don't have sufficient documentation on the load that you were using or a large enough sample to be submitted for ballistic testing. Some prosecutors/investigators won't go through all that work, but some will even in a clear cut case, especially if you live in Liberalville. This was the recommendation of the detective and the lawyer that taught my CCW class in AZ. Basically, it boils down to if it can't be purchased off the shelf, you need to have rounds available to surrender to the other legal team or investigators. It would also be nice to have some for yours. The lawyer carried two spare mags for his Glock since it is unlikely based on past civilian shootings that hey will be needed that usually leaves rounds that can be tested if necessary. He also stated that it is more likely to be an issue in any civil case linked to a shooting if it allowed by law in your state after a finding of a justifiable shooting. You aren't worried about a clear cut case. You are worried about the situation when viewed in the aftermath is not so clear cut, or it turns out that the kid with the knife was 13 and the son of your Congressman.

-yarro

[HangFireW8]

Ditch the handgun and get a 12 ga shotgun. Pump, autoloader,or side by side. Load the thing with 6,7 or 8 shot, that way you won't penatrate your walls and your nieghbors walls, He'll thank you for that. Trust me bird shot at 10 to 12 feet will be all you ever need.

6,7 or 8 shot will very much penetrate your walls, unless we are talking about brick, block or concrete, but two layers of drywall and maybe some fiberglass and vinyl siding, no problem.

You're right at 10 or 12 feet it will be all you ever need.

-HF

[Lawnjockey]

The whole lawyer thing with hand loads is that in a civil suit the plaintiff's attorney is going to try to make the shooter look like some sort of gun nut who was just waiting to have a chance to shoot someone. In discovery the fact that you own many guns and reload and shoot thousands of rounds a year, and yes cast boolits is going to come out. This is going to be used to taint the jury's view of the you with the idea that it will swing them in favor of the plaintiff. It really doesn't matter what was shot in the incident because there is so much other red meat for plaintiff's cousel to go for.

Jocko esq

[lead4me]

The whole lawyer thing with hand loads is that in a civil suit the plaintiff's attorney is going to try to make the shooter look like some sort of gun nut who was just waiting to have a chance to shoot someone. In discovery the fact that you own many guns and reload and shoot thousands of rounds a year, and yes cast boolits is going to come out. This is going to be used to taint the jury's view of the you with the idea that it will swing them in favor of the plaintiff. It really doesn't matter what was shot in the incident because there is so much other red meat for plaintiff's cousel to go for.

Jocko esq

At least you will be alive to go threw it, what's the old saying " I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" but I still carry Hornady Tap in my .45 for CC. When it comes to protecting my family I want something tried & proven.

[shooting on a shoestring]

I bought a Handloader Ammunition jReloading Journal just for Brain Pearce's article on using handloads for self defense. Current issue June 2010 No. 266, on page 22. "Contrary to popular belief, it is safe to use either handloads or factory loads for self-defense". There's just not been any court cases where it mattered. Not that this will kill the thread.

[Gohon]

Here in Oklahoma under our "Make My Day Law" it states "A person who uses force, as permitted pursuant to the provisions of subsections B and D of this section, is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force." In addition the police cannot arrest you or confiscate your weapon unless there is reasonable suspicion that the shooting was unlawful. Bottom line is the bad guy and their relatives are simply SOL.

[dudel]

I bought a Handloader Ammunition jReloading Journal just for Brain Pearce's article on using handloads for self defense. Current issue June 2010 No. 266, on page 22. "Contrary to popular belief, it is safe to use either handloads or factory loads for self-defense". There's just not been any court cases where it mattered. Not that this will kill the thread.

Every case out there had a first one. Up till a little while ago, there was no such thing as bulling by email. It's a letigius society; so do what you will.

[Bret4207]

On my night stand sits a compact Colt .45Auto and by my TV chair is a custom 5" 45auto with a 10rd mag. All loaded with Blazer 230gr. From what I have read lately you should never use your reloaded ammo in a self defence gun. Because if you shoot someone with your reloads the lawyers can claim that you made this ammo to kill someone. Something like that. So I use factory ammo to be safe.

Didn't read the other posts, eh?

[No_1]

I certianly like that law and wish more states would adopt it.

R.


Here in Oklahoma under our "Make My Day Law" it states "A person who uses force, as permitted pursuant to the provisions of subsections B and D of this section, is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force." In addition the police cannot arrest you or confiscate your weapon unless there is reasonable suspicion that the shooting was unlawful. Bottom line is the bad guy and their relatives are simply SOL.

[HammerMTB]

Cheers to OK for a law with common sense!
Oh that lawmakers everywhere would use common sense![smilie=1:


Here in Oklahoma under our "Make My Day Law" it states "A person who uses force, as permitted pursuant to the provisions of subsections B and D of this section, is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force." In addition the police cannot arrest you or confiscate your weapon unless there is reasonable suspicion that the shooting was unlawful. Bottom line is the bad guy and their relatives are simply SOL.

[Cactus Farmer]

The biggest threat from using hand loads for self defense is if you don't have sufficient documentation on the load that you were using or a large enough sample to be submitted for ballistic testing.
-yarro

Ballistic testing? Bad guy is dead! It worked well. End of story. Best not come to my neck of the woods, our DA would likely do nothing but say,"nice work".

I'll use whatever I have in the pistol. Like a 230 grn Blazer wouldn't kill a felon too. Geeze

I want the sign that says "If you can read this,your in range" and it will be posted at the front gate, with a nite light for evening visitors.

[KCSO]

Fred J...
I hope you never find out the hard way what the effective range of a shotgun is. I have attended the autopsy of two fellows who thought that bird shot wasn't any good past a few feet. Subject #1 shot at 10 yards with #2 duck shot dead on the spot, shot went into the body from 4-7" and the pattern just covered the whole chest area. Subject #2 was at 12 yards and he caught a load of #6 shot. it took him alomst 10 minutes to die as he writhed around on the ground with shot clogging his arteries. The pathologist said that even with immediate hospital care the #6 shot guy wouldn't have been saved. In the past 35 years i have been PRIVLIDGED??? to see many folks bite the birdshot, about one a year on average, with everything from a 410 to a 10 Ga. Bird shot is a sure and certian killer on humans inside 10 yards and would be OK for home defense IF you could ensure a center mass hit or a head shot.

#4 buck would be better as even if you were a little off the individual pellets would have the penetration needed to disable say a leg or an arm. But don't discount bird shot.

[pjh421]

I was never a LEO and have never shot anyone but I have had extensive training in city fighting, clearing rooms, buildings, riot control, etc. I do not consider myself an expert either. Having said that, however, I can safely say that in a confined space such as a doorway or a hallway use of a long gun slows you down. For indoor work I definitely prefer a handgun as they are more maneuverable and quicker to bring to bear on a threat. For outdoor use there is no contest. A long gun, with its buttstock, is easier to accurately align on target. Beyond that, what you use only matters as far as your ability to effectively engage. I have walked through indoor and outdoor scenarios at my home, just going through the gross muscle movements (not trying to solve for each possible contingency) and in my situation what I stated above bears out. When I use my shotgun to assault from our upstairs bedroom down to the living room my movements are restricted by the poor fit of that gun to the hallway. There is a bathroom on my left as I move toward the stairs. If I had to engage a threat in that bathroom while holding my shotgun I would be at a disadvantage. The remainder of the house has similar problems.

We don't keep a specific gun around for home defense. We keep several guns around for sport shooting. If someone threatens us, I don't care what I shoot them with. Its not my intent to shoot a person. If they put one of us in a situation that causes them to get shot it is not of my doing. We are casual target shooters and reloaded ammunition is likely what is to be present in our home for the intended purpose of our guns. I don't remember twisting anyone's arm to cause them break in, threaten us and make us shoot them with reloads. Just as the afforementioned frying pans and ball bats are expedient weapons of opportunity, so to are our sporting guns with reloaded ammunition. On the other hand, if the lawmakers can force me to buy health insurance maybe they can force me to buy factory ammo as well. I hope Hornady never needs a government bailout.

Paul

[StarMetal]

#4 Buck has been the standard for years. So, also the baseball bat. I actually used one once on something trying to enter a window. It works, and they don't bring their friends back for retribution, that is, if you DON'T call the cops. ... felix

Felix,

Was that baseball bat a single, double action, or semi automatic. That's an interesting story and glad it worked out for you in a positive manner. [smilie=s:

[fredj338]

Fred J...
I hope you never find out the hard way what the effective range of a shotgun is. I have attended the autopsy of two fellows who thought that bird shot wasn't any good past a few feet. Subject #1 shot at 10 yards with #2 duck shot dead on the spot, shot went into the body from 4-7" and the pattern just covered the whole chest area. Subject #2 was at 12 yards and he caught a load of #6 shot. it took him alomst 10 minutes to die as he writhed around on the ground with shot clogging his arteries. The pathologist said that even with immediate hospital care the #6 shot guy wouldn't have been saved. In the past 35 years i have been PRIVLIDGED??? to see many folks bite the birdshot, about one a year on average, with everything from a 410 to a 10 Ga. Bird shot is a sure and certian killer on humans inside 10 yards and would be OK for home defense IF you could ensure a center mass hit or a head shot.

#4 buck would be better as even if you were a little off the individual pellets would have the penetration needed to disable say a leg or an arm. But don't discount bird shot.
I don't discount any gun pointed at me, but I am betting in those tow cases you site, the SG used had a full choke? My own test show that open or riot or cyl bores just don't offer enough pellet concentration, especially w/ shot smaller than BB. Most of the lighter #6 shot can be dramatically turned by a leather jacket @ hall distances of 20ft. If yo uare worried about SG pellets penetrating walls, use #4 buck. each individual pellet still penetrates well enough to reach vitals. Not so w/ birdhsot. Sure, the BG may eventual bleed to death w/o ER care, but does he kill you in the mean time because the shot wasn't enough to stop him right now? I just don't see the point of potentially less than lethal loads being used when you need lethal at that moment. Just go to bean bag rounds then, JMO.