ATF got back to me about private boolit sales

[chris in va]

I asked about selling some cast boolits to a friend, here's the response I got back.


This correspondence is in response to your inquiry emailed to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), on December 17, 2009. In your email, you request to know what you are required to do before transferring privately made “cast lead bullets” to a friend.



From the information you have provided there are no federal laws regulating the transfer of “lead bullets” between individuals.



We trust this correspondence has been responsive to your inquiry. Should you have any further questions, please feel free to contact your local ATF Industry Operations Office. A list of ATF Office telephone numbers can be found at http://www.atf.gov/contact/field.htm.



Regards,



Firearms Enforcement Branch, ATF




My original question...


Hello,

What is required legally, if anything, to sell a small amount of privately made cast lead bullets to a friend? This is *not* loaded ammunition, just the lead bullet.

Thank you.

[DLCTEX]

Wow! A sensible answer from BATF. Must be a mistake, no qualifiers, no hedging, no smoke or mirrors. Are you sure it went to "our" BATF?

[Recluse]

Not a bad idea to keep that e-mail/response on file.

ATF is notorious for having a very selective memory.

:coffee:

[Storydude]

Get it in writing. ATF correspondance is not Valid if not in PAPER FORM.

[Shiloh]

Not a bad idea to keep that e-mail/response on file.

ATF is notorious for having a very selective memory.

:coffee:

Amen to that!!!!

I was denied a transfer years ago. Six months to clear it up. I have every document and copies of ALL correspondence. Including registered mail receipts.

Selective memory is common when dealing with regulating Gov't agencies.
I would still doe this on a very low key basis. Loose lips sink ships.

Shiloh

[Longrange]

He must have had his daily allowance of coffee prior to sending that out. Best straight forward answer I believe I have ever seen from the feds..

[Riverrat]

It was probably a new guy who didn't know how to play the game yet!!

[Willbird]

Also ATF does not administer ITAR. Nor can they really answer questions about it.

And even ATF opinions in paper form have no actual value, unless they decide to save face by letting you slide once you produce it.

Bill

[lwknight]

I thought ITAR concerned international arms and was directly under the Presidents control..
Misouri bullets had to get his ITAR to ship to Canada.

[Changeling]

If it was NCIS (TV series) I would believe it, I would at least check "Gibbs", LOL.

[deltaenterprizes]

I am sure that this would cover a one time occurrence, not to all of your "friends" on this forum with an ad in the swapping and selling section. That in and of itself would be evidence of commercial intent.

[Scotts556]

Sorry newbi question here, but does this mean I can make small runs and sell them at a friend store??????


Thanks
Scott

[Bloodman14]

I would think that would require an FFL, as you are 'manufacturing ammunition or components for distribution or profit'; that is NOT a direct quote, although I saw that phrase in Chapter 44, United States Code, Title 18, somewhere in Sec. 922, 923 or 925, I don't recall exactly. "Google" 'Sec. 922', and look for the 'Cornell University School of Law' link; good info to have.

[1874Sharps]

This question and the answer appears in a thread from about four months back. First off let me say I am not a lawyer (don't you like me better already?!!) and am not trying to give any legal advice. I inquired into this question because I wanted to make sure I did not unknowingly get myself into any difficulties with the BATFE, especially considering the anti-gun current administration. To engage in commercial enterprise (deriving livelihood) in making ammunition OR AMMUNITION COMPONENTS SUCH AS BULLETS requires a federal license. The law goes on to define certain terms such as "deriving livelihood", etc. Some of these terms may not have very precise definitions, but after reading the applicable laws and then calling the BATFE I can tell you that if you are deriving you livelihood from the commercial enterprise of making bullets then you need the license. I asked about making boolits on occasion for sale to a friend and such and was told that was OK. In the back of my mind, though, I am imagining myself trying to explain whatever I may be up to as if I was testifying to a jury or federal investigation: Is what I am doing obviously in accordance to the law in any reasonable man's judgement, and maybe just a little more in that direction. You can make all you want for yourself and as gifts and can sell some on a small basis as long as you do not cross into that area of making your livelihood from it, wherever that point is. I think the law said the license was only $30 if I remember correctly. Anyone wanting legal advice on this issue can read the BATFE regs, call and talk to their licensing division or consult an attourney.

[machinisttx]

Get it in writing. ATF correspondance is not Valid if not in PAPER FORM.

ATF, as far as I know, won't answer any question unless it is actually mailed to them...and they mail an answer.

[Recluse]

Sorry newbi question here, but does this mean I can make small runs and sell them at a friend store??????

Thanks
Scott

Absolutely not.

You'll need a manufacturer's FFL to do that.

:coffee:

[Artful]

Years ago I was going to make re-mfg'd ammo for sale - after all was said and done I just sold the cast bullets and the label stated not responsable of use or misuse of the product not warrented for any particular use. The sue happy public and lawyers kept me out of that - the first batch of ammo was used by myself and friends due to liability insurance costs.

[Rocky Raab]

Their answer is not as straight-forward as you might think. They have LOTS of wiggle room in how they interpret "transfer" and "friends."

[ChuckS1]

I thought ITAR concerned international arms and was directly under the Presidents control..
Misouri bullets had to get his ITAR to ship to Canada.

ITAR is a State Department responsibility. For the most part, in the broadest possible terms, anything that can be construed to be related to arms and ammunition (including electronics, software and technical data, for example) requires ITAR approval, if done commercially. My employer, Lockheed Martin, has us go through all kinds of mandatory training on what is and is not export controlled. I can bore you with details, but unless you're shipping overseas, you don't have an ITAR issue.

Which is why, on Ebay, I don't sell molds outside of the the country.

[DLCTEX]

If you sell boolits commercially you will have to collect and pay taxes on the sales. These don't come under the responsibility if the BATF, I don't think. As usual, there are many hoops to jump through to do things on a commercial basis. Federal, State, and local regs all come into play. The obstacles to beginning business are many and , usually, prohibitive.

[Adam10mm]

He must have had his daily allowance of coffee prior to sending that out. Best straight forward answer I believe I have ever seen from the feds..
Pretty careful how they worded it.


Also ATF does not administer ITAR. Nor can they really answer questions about it.

Correct, the ATF does not handle ITAR, the State Department does. Only the State Department can address ITAR concerns.


I thought ITAR concerned international arms and was directly under the Presidents control..
Misouri bullets had to get his ITAR to ship to Canada.
ITAR is State Department, not president.

Sorry newbi question here, but does this mean I can make small runs and sell them at a friend store??????


Thanks
Scott
No you must have an FFL for that. The spirit of the response indicates a private sale much in the same way as a private sale of a firearm. If you are selling to rid yourself of it, fine. If you are doing it at intervals that would draw attention, then you are playing with a government agency that doesn't have mercy on you.

Years ago I was going to make re-mfg'd ammo for sale - after all was said and done I just sold the cast bullets and the label stated not responsable of use or misuse of the product not warrented for any particular use. The sue happy public and lawyers kept me out of that - the first batch of ammo was used by myself and friends due to liability insurance costs.
And even then, your statement means next to nothing. Welcome to Liability, America.


If you sell boolits commercially you will have to collect and pay taxes on the sales. These don't come under the responsibility if the BATF, I don't think. As usual, there are many hoops to jump through to do things on a commercial basis. Federal, State, and local regs all come into play. The obstacles to beginning business are many and , usually, prohibitive.
The federal excise tax is paid to and collectible by the Tax and Trade Bureau of the US Treasury Department. The ATF got split in half during Bush's administration. The tax people got left under the US Treasury Dept as the TTB Agency that collects all the taxes associated with alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and ammunition. The enforcement part of the ATF, the field agents and the industry operations inspectors were moved to the Department of Justice, which is the federal LE branch of government. The change and reclassification actually makes sense for once.

[davcar45]

You guys are talking about cast bullet right? Not loaded ammunition right?

You need a license to manufacture ammunition for resale.

You do not need an FFL to sell loaded ammunition loaded by someone else, reloads or otherwise. If you wanted to open an ammo shop and deal in Winchester, Federal and CCI ammo, you could do that with no FFL. You would need whatever business license is required by your state and collect sales tax on sales etc.

As far as selling cast bullets that you cast??? I know local casters all over the place selling cast bullets to shooters at gun clubs and wherever. My guess is, they don't have a manufacturers license because they are selling lead more or less. They are not making loaded ammo.

[Adam10mm]

Cast lead bullets are ammunition components and are considered to be ammunition according to the GCA of 1968 and the definition can be found in 27 CFR 478.11 as well as many posts here explaining the required licensure of ammunition manufacturers, to include all ammunition components including cast lead bullets. If someone is making a business out of casting lead bullets and are not licensed as a manufacturer, they are operating illegally. It's not a gray area, it's black and white.

[shootinfox2]

Cast bullets for sale are considered ammunition components under 22 CFR 121.1(f)(1) and are regulated under multiple agencies. Google ITAR ammunition for the whole reference.manufacturing and selling reloaded ammunition the you reloaded does require a class 6 ffl. Remember, not knowing the law is no excuse if you get caught.

FWIW

Fox

[Bigslug]

Answer is simple - we modify the bullet molds to hold little brass eyelets in place in either the base or nose. Then you label the shipping box as follows:

SINKING WEIGHTS, FISHING, STOCK NUMBER 429421

I keep mine next to my "curtain rods"

[Doc_Stihl]

I would have asked about selling bullets that YOU made. Selling bullets is fine. Selling bullets that YOU made is a bit different. I would hope the answer would be the same but the ATF is a strange creature.

[7br]

I thought ITAR concerned international arms and was directly under the Presidents control..
Misouri bullets had to get his ITAR to ship to Canada.
Itar is administrated by the State Department. Export Compliance Control is controlled by the Commerce Department.

[psychicrhino]

Hmmm.Interesting info.

[HiVelocity]

You'd better enclose a copy of the letter from the ATF with every box of cast bullets you mail, or ship. This is the first, and probably the last, time something really sensible came out of any ATF correspondence. I commend them, at least, for once.

HV

[David2011]

A portion of ITAR addresses ammunition components. It specifically mentioned bullets and even jackets and cores. I personally doubt that our cast Boolits are current military grade but that matters little to the bureaucracy as long as they can punish the good people of America. The hobbyist and small business need relief from the oppressive regulations.

http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/documents/official_itar/2013/ITAR_Part_121.pdf Bottom of page 474:

(1) The components, parts, accessories and
attachments controlled in this category include,
but are not limited to cartridge cases,
powder bags (or other propellant charges),
bullets, jackets, cores, shells (excluding
shotgun shells), projectiles (including canister
rounds and submunitions therefor),
boosters, firing components therefor, primers,
and other detonating devices for the defense
articles controlled in this category.

David

[MaryB]

My gun dealer has his manufacturing FFL, he doesn't sell out of the USA but still had to get his ITAR permit. Don't and see how fast you get a knock on the door demanding you pay up

"All U.S. manufacturers, exporters, and brokers of defense articles, defense services, or related technical data, as defined on the USML, are required to register with U.S. Department of State. Registration is primarily a means to provide the U.S. Government with necessary information on who is involved in certain manufacturing and exporting activities. Registration does not confer any export rights or privileges, but is a precondition for the issuance of any license or other approval for export.[20] Registration fees start at US$2,250 per year.[21]"

[freebullet]

So long as your facebook friends with the buyer, a regisitered demoncrap, have that email,dont make minimum wage selling them, callem fishin weights, & dont export them yer good- I got it now lol,

[rhead]

How long before the EPA or OSHA or NIOSH shows up checking your manufacturing and storage facilities?

Memo from the ATF to the appropriate agency, "Under current law we cannot act on this. You may want to look into this use of a toxic substance."

[deltaenterprizes]

Answer is simple - we modify the bullet molds to hold little brass eyelets in place in either the base or nose. Then you label the shipping box as follows:

SINKING WEIGHTS, FISHING, STOCK NUMBER 429421



I keep mine next to my "curtain rods"

Would you like to be in front of a Federal judge telling that story with your $500/hr lawyer standing next to you and the Assistant US Attorney reading the charges?

[gwpercle]

That answer was given in 2009 this is now 2014. If they are anything like our local building permit office the answer to a question today may not be correct tomorrow. When asked if the building code changed their answer was " oh no the code hasn't changed....our interpretation of the code has changed" . Be real careful when dealing with these people!

[olafhardt]

The ATF, STATE DEPARTMENT, NASA, SALVATION ARMY, CSA, KGB etc have NO jurisdiction over lube grooves.

[dbosman]

Someone's selling lube grooves again?
Probably those powder coating folks that don't need their share of lube grooves.
If you use enough of them you must be a loverin bullet lover.

[olafhardt]

There is a rumor going around that an unknown government agency bought 25 billion lube groves to cause a shortage and push the price up.

[fastfire]

A portion of ITAR addresses ammunition components. It specifically mentioned bullets and even jackets and cores. I personally doubt that our cast Boolits are current military grade but that matters little to the bureaucracy as long as they can punish the good people of America. The hobbyist and small business need relief from the oppressive regulations.

http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/documents/official_itar/2013/ITAR_Part_121.pdf Bottom of page 474:

(1) The components, parts, accessories and
attachments controlled in this category include,
but are not limited to cartridge cases,
powder bags (or other propellant charges),
bullets, jackets, cores, shells (excluding
shotgun shells), projectiles (including canister
rounds and submunitions therefor),
boosters, firing components therefor, primers,
and other detonating devices for the defense
articles controlled in this category.

David


So every mom and pop store in this country that sells any components has to pay the 2500.00 a year?

[Three44s]

Do you notice "cartridge cases"?


(1) The components, parts, accessories and
attachments controlled in this category include,
but are not limited to cartridge cases,
powder bags (or other propellant charges),
bullets, jackets, cores, shells (excluding
shotgun shells), projectiles (including canister
rounds and submunitions therefor),
boosters, firing components therefor, primers,
and other detonating devices for the defense
articles controlled in this category.




Three 44s

[dtknowles]

only applies to manufactures and exporters, not domestic resellers.

Tim

[fredj338]

So every mom and pop store in this country that sells any components has to pay the 2500.00 a year?
No, selling components doesn't even require an FFL. Manuf for sale does, as well as paying the FET. AT least that was how it was when I had a FFL to manuf ammo.

[alfloyd]

Look at section:

--------------------------------------

CATEGORY III—AMMUNITION/ORDNANCE
* (a) Ammunition/ordnance for the articles
in Categories I and II of this section.

(c) Equipment and tooling specifically designed
or modified for the production of defense
articles controlled by this category.

(1) The components, parts, accessories and
attachments controlled in this category include,
but are not limited to cartridge cases,
powder bags (or other propellant charges),
bullets, jackets, cores, , shells (excluding
shotgun shells), projectiles (including canister
rounds and submunitions therefor),
boosters, firing components therefor, primers,
and other detonating devices for the defense
articles controlled in this category.

-----------------------------------------

Does this say that our bullet swaging dies are regulated like bullets are?

Lafaun

[deltaenterprizes]

If they are used in automatic equipment they are.
Magma needs permits to export sets of 8 molds for the Bullet Master,it is considered"war machinery", a single mold for a Master Caster no problem!

[kweidner]

Being a class 6 holder and having been through the process with the ATF, I would highly recommend you do the right thing. They are aware of many casting operations that do not pay ITAR but the field agent doing my interview said they are running a big risk as it's illegal. I pay for the class 6, ITAR, as well as liability ins. I choose not to interpret the law. I had considered at one time selling without ITAR but the ATF will not allow you a class 6 anymore without you paying it. I love my second ammendment rights and choose not to run that risk of loosing them because I want to sell some rocks that could be interpreted as projectiles to some friends locally. Be careful.

[Smoke4320]

I keep seeing people post you don't need an ITAR because someone down the road or their buddy sells cast bullets and they don't have or didn't pay the ITAR .. Guys its illegal ...if you get caught its a felony .. you lose all your gun rights, you may go to jail and either way its going to cost you a very large sum of money .. NOT worth the risk .. especially with the administration we have now

I have a person a few miles down the road from me that I warned several times about selling guns (for a profit) definition of a gun dealer according to the ATF.. He knew better .. people sell them all the time at the Flea market and don't have a FFL he says .. I DID NOT turn him in just so you know
he is now charged with multiple felonies ...he will be convicted..and he will lose the ability to ever touch a gun or ammo again

[unclebill]

I keep seeing people post you don't need an ITAR because someone down the road or their buddy sells cast bullets and they don't have or didn't pay the ITAR .. Guys its illegal ...if you get caught its a felony .. you lose all your gun rights, you may go to jail and either way its going to cost you a very large sum of money .. NOT worth the risk .. especially with the administration we have now

I have a person a few miles down the road from me that I warned several times about selling guns (for a profit) definition of a gun dealer according to the ATF.. He knew better .. people sell them all the time at the Flea market and don't have a FFL he says .. I DID NOT turn him in just so you know
he is now charged with multiple felonies ...he will be convicted..and he will lose the ability to ever touch a gun or ammo again
there is NO way i am gonna gamble with my freedom and gun rights by trying to pull a fast one on the BATF.
i like being able to just walk around loose.......

[Texantothecore]

I would err on the side of caution on this subject. The answer to the letter was as narrow as the question asked.

You can lose a lot if your interpretation is not theirs. Their interpretation can change very suddenly by executive order or by a new rule.

Cover your bases thoroughly.

[Smoke4320]

Keep in mind that back about 2002 the ATF approved not once but twice in a 1 year period the Akins accelerator (10/22 bump fire stock) akins sold quite a few before the ATF reversed the twice approved product .. Almost instantly bankrupting Mr Akins
any interpretation is up to them not you and you getting THEIR interpretation wrong will be very costly for YOU

[220swiftfn]

I keep seeing people post you don't need an ITAR because someone down the road or their buddy sells cast bullets and they don't have or didn't pay the ITAR .. Guys its illegal ...if you get caught its a felony .. you lose all your gun rights, you may go to jail and either way its going to cost you a very large sum of money .. NOT worth the risk .. especially with the administration we have now

I have a person a few miles down the road from me that I warned several times about selling guns (for a profit) definition of a gun dealer according to the ATF.. He knew better .. people sell them all the time at the Flea market and don't have a FFL he says .. I DID NOT turn him in just so you know
he is now charged with multiple felonies ...he will be convicted..and he will lose the ability to ever touch a gun or ammo again


Selling a gun for a profit is perfectly legal...... They DO have a grey area as to when you are selling enough guns to warrant it being "a substantial portion of your income"....... Weasle wording if I ever heard any.......

Dan