Sizing non-TL bullets vs TL boolits and variences, Swithing to Non TL?

[Colorado4wheel]

This is my first post in this great forum. I did do a search and found lots of information but I need a little help sorting through it all. Bear with me if you can while I explain where I am at so far with this new hobby. I have a Lee 6 Cavity Tumble Lube 356-124-2R 9mm Luger mold. It it casting bullets at 118grs. I also have a Lee .356 sizer. It is sizing these boolits to .354. No big suprise, they lead like crazy in 24 shots and tumble. I will send that sizer back. If I measure the existing non sized bullets they are anywhere from .356 to .357 and some a little bigger but thats probably just a burr or some measuring anomoly. I do not really care for the shape of the mold I have. The micro grove band requires I seat the bullet deep to avoid the sharp edge of the first TL band. I have to load it to 1.080 OAL. I am thinking of switching to this Lee mold 356-125-2R 9mm. It has the exact same shape as my Jacketed round nose bullets and I figure (hopefully correctly) that I can seat it out longer like I prefer. I still plan on Tumble Lubing as I don't have a Star or some other Lube Sizer. Information I have read through searching say TL works just fine on non-tl bullets. So here are my questions.

1) What size should I expect from that Lee mold? http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=658356
I want to be able to size it to .356 or .357 depending on what my barrel likes? I plan on buying both the .356 and .357 sizer to try and see what my barrel likes.

2) Anyone have any experiance with that 125 gr Double Radius 9mm bullet? Does it cast to .356 or does it cast bigger then the TL mold because the expect you to size the bullet (unlike the TL bullets) Is it normal for the TL 124gr RN to be so light? It is really causing me issues with making PF and cycling the gun properly with such a light bullet.

3) I am thinking of just forgeting all this Lee Mold stuff and getting the Lyman 147 gr TC mold. I used to shoot a lot of Jacketed 147gr bullets and love the feel. I actually prefer the Lee mold as I like using the handle on the Lee for the sprue plate and I like the way the bullets just fall out of the mold with out as much wacking. BUT, I need something that works. I am a USPSA shooter and I can't really live with the light 118gr bullets I have now as they just dont run the gun very well. I have been shooting 124gr Jacketed due to cost lately and those are fine for me and my gun. But I don't want to buy another 125 gr mold and have it spit out 118gr bullets. At least if I have a 147 gr bullet and it cast light it will run the gun just fine. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=743639
If I buy that mold can I use the Lee handles that I already have?

4) Is my WW lead causing the light bullets? Is their some way to get the existing mold to cast the proper weight?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[kyle623]

lee claims you can shoot the tl boolits as cast, i would give that a try and see if that cures the leading.

[Colorado4wheel]

lee claims you can shoot the tl boolits as cast, i would give that a try and see if that cures the leading.

I plan on that but in the end that mold is the heavist TL mold Lee makes in 9mm. I don't know why mine is casting at 118 grs. But the 118 grs is too light for my use so I am not going to like this mold long term (unless I can make it cast 124gr). I don't know if it's a bad mold or this is just what I should expect from that Lee mold. Makes me nervous buying the other Lee 125 gr mold that is not a TL design. Thats why I mentioned the Lyman 147 gr mold and just tumble lubing with that. I really don't want to buy a lube sizer yet but I may have to I guess. I also like the Lee Molds. They are light, fast, easy to use. Lee just does not have a 147gr option in 9mm.

[DLCTEX]

Would it be possible for you to post pictures of your boolits. We need more information to diagnose the problem with the mold. The boolits may be undersize?weight due to the mold being too cold, or too hot. If the lands are filling out well, it's not too cold. If they are really frosty they are too hot, which causes shrunken lands and underweight boolits. With a newbie, I'd guess too cold as it's hard to get the 6 cav. mould up to temp without preheating on a hotplate or some other method. The .354 size is not acceptable. Do a search to find how to lap out the sizer to cast at least .356, but you may want to take it to .357. But, TL boolits are designed to be loaded as cast and do not need sizing. The mould is casting the target size, .356. Are you lubing the boolits before sizing? Dry boolits can lead the size die and cause it to grow. My Lee 356 2R mould casts .357, it is a 2 cav. If you are getting good fillout the boolit should drop close to the target weight, assuming your alloy is true WW and does not contain eatra tin or zinc. It does not surprise me you are getting leading with boolits sized .354 and you may be getting enough blowby to reduce pressure enough to cause cycling problems. If your alloy is correct and fillout is good send the mould back to Lee. With Lymans reported quality control troubles you may have problems getting their mould to cast correctly. The TC wad cutter may give you feed problems, depends on the gun and a few other factors.
On rereading your first post it seems the mould is filling out enough to cast the correct size, so if the alloy is correct, send it back.

[Cloudpeak]

I just bought the Lee 356-125-2R mold but haven't shot any rounds yet. My mold drops 125 grain bullets using Lyman #2 alloy.

Here's a post from a few days ago that I posted:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=75317

[Colorado4wheel]

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r215/98sr20ve/DSC_3290.jpg

Random bullets from my first casting session. I had some help from a experianced caster but he never used a Lee mold before. They weight between 118.4 and 119.5. I may be able to shrink that spread with technique but I don't know much about any of this.

[cricco]

I have that same mold. It is very consistant in casting 126 grain boolits.

[Colorado4wheel]

I have that same mold. It is very consistant in casting 126 grain boolits.

Are you having to load it really short to get it to work in your chamber. Mine hits the first grove of that TL band if I don't keep it below 1.090."

[Colorado4wheel]

I just bought the Lee 356-125-2R mold but haven't shot any rounds yet. My mold drops 125 grain bullets using Lyman #2 alloy.

Here's a post from a few days ago that I posted:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=75317


Have you loaded any? Can they load longer then the one I have do you think?

[Recluse]

Colorado4Wheel,

First off, welcome.

I cast and occasionally shoot that boolit from a two-banger (Lee) mold. My boolits drop consistently at .357 to .358 and between 125 and 126 grains before sizing.

A few thoughts:

1. Temperature--what temps are you casting at? I've found for best results with my Lee molds, I run the alloy pretty hot--minimum of 800F.

2. Mold Temp? Six-bangers are hard to keep hot, so you gotta pour and pop pretty quick. Start with a hot mold (via a heat plate) and keep it hot.

3. Alloy mix? Straight WW? I've found with all of my micro-band boolits, I add some tin into the alloy mix. Probably more than I actually need, but it gives me excellent fillout, which in turn keeps my sizing consistent.

4. The push-through sizer--how are you measuring your boolits. . . with calipers or a micrometer? .354 is way too small--I'd dang sure send it back with a polite note about being new to casting and that you're definitely disappointed with the out-of-spec sizer.

5. Seating. I seat those TL124RN boolits flush to the first microband. Gives me no feed problems in any of the 9mms I load for. I don't have the other 124 gr Lee mold for 9mm. Like I said earlier, I'm not a big fan of cast 9mm boolits--have not had luck worth a damn with cast 9mm bullets (my own or commercial cast) in some thirty-odd years. I'm probably cursed.

6. Have you Lee-mented the mold? I complete Lee-ment job also involves a slight lapping of the mold cavities--letting you get the full potential from your mold provided all other factors are in line with what the mold prefers/requires.

:coffee:

[lwknight]

I have the 356-125-2R 9mm mold and it casts .360 @126 grains. So far I have not shot any yet. I have only a 357 sizer and they come out of it at .3568 which is only .0003 over some commercial cast that I have, so I'm going to give it a try with tumble lube. I might have to get a .356 sizer but, I'm thinking probably not.

[Cloudpeak]

Have you loaded any? Can they load longer then the one I have do you think?

I load the 124gr TL rounds to 1.125" and this length has functioned fine in a M&P, CZ75 Compact, Kahr CW9 and STI Trojan. I loaded 100 rounds from the new mold and, with no change in the seating die, the 125 non TL bullets seated to the same COAL.

The new bullet seems to seat easier for some reason but are the same diameter as the 124's I used to cast. No setback problems. I like the clean look of the loaded round. Certainly nothing to hang up like the TL design bullet (though I've not had that problem.)

I'm heading out today to test fire the 100 rounds and check for accuracy and leading. I'm also going check out some 38 Special loads in my new S&W 620 and see if the reduced mainspring I installed will set off the primers.

[Colorado4wheel]

Colorado4Wheel,

First off, welcome.

I cast and occasionally shoot that boolit from a two-banger (Lee) mold. My boolits drop consistently at .357 to .358 and between 125 and 126 grains before sizing.

A few thoughts:

1. Temperature--what temps are you casting at? I've found for best results with my Lee molds, I run the alloy pretty hot--minimum of 800F.



Thanks.

We were casting at 750 using a RCBS pot. It did not have a gauge but has the dial with the temp reading on the side. I was being taught how to do this at a friends house. He never used a Lee mold before. So that part was new to both of us. I dipped the end in the pot to help it get up to temp. Before that the sprue plate was very hard to open. After that the sprue plate opened easily after 1 set of bullets. I have heard about this hot plate trick but did not have one to try it.



2. Mold Temp? Six-bangers are hard to keep hot, so you gotta pour and pop pretty quick. Start with a hot mold (via a heat plate) and keep it hot.


I was going as fast as I could. As soon as the bullets dropped I was starting to pour the next batch. Maybe I just needed to turn the temp up. He told me 750 was a good temp so thats what I did.




3. Alloy mix? Straight WW? I've found with all of my micro-band boolits, I add some tin into the alloy mix. Probably more than I actually need, but it gives me excellent fillout, which in turn keeps my sizing consistent.



Straight WW. He thougth they might be light because my mix had a lot of tin and antomony. I haven't a clue.




4. The push-through sizer--how are you measuring your boolits. . . with calipers or a micrometer? .354 is way too small--I'd dang sure send it back with a polite note about being new to casting and that you're definitely disappointed with the out-of-spec sizer.


I measured them at another friends house who is a machinist. They measured the same at my house. Both using dial calipers. They measure .001 smaller then my jacketed using the same method.




5. Seating. I seat those TL124RN boolits flush to the first microband. Gives me no feed problems in any of the 9mms I load for. I don't have the other 124 gr Lee mold for 9mm. Like I said earlier, I'm not a big fan of cast 9mm boolits--have not had luck worth a damn with cast 9mm bullets (my own or commercial cast) in some thirty-odd years. I'm probably cursed.


That makes my heart sink and gives me a knot in my stomack. I have invested $350 into this process so far. Between the KKM barrel and casting stuff.



6. Have you Lee-mented the mold? I complete Lee-ment job also involves a slight lapping of the mold cavities--letting you get the full potential from your mold provided all other factors are in line with what the mold prefers/requires.

:coffee:

I don't even know what that is. So thats a NO.

Thanks everyone for posting back and the advice so far.

[Colorado4wheel]

I load the 124gr TL rounds to 1.125" and this length has functioned fine in a M&P, CZ75 Compact, Kahr CW9 and STI Trojan. I loaded 100 rounds from the new mold and, with no change in the seating die, the 125 non TL bullets seated to the same COAL.

The new bullet seems to seat easier for some reason but are the same diameter as the 124's I used to cast. No setback problems. I like the clean look of the loaded round. Certainly nothing to hang up like the TL design bullet (though I've not had that problem.)

I'm heading out today to test fire the 100 rounds and check for accuracy and leading. I'm also going check out some 38 Special loads in my new S&W 620 and see if the reduced mainspring I installed will set off the primers.


Well, I have a Glock so I got the KKM barrel for it. I tried Moly Lead bullets in my glock barrel before and it did not work. I had to shorten up my FMJ bullets a bit for this new barrel anyway. I figure it's just tight like every other KKM barrel. I can get it reemed if I want. Thats not a problem. IF these bullet actualy weighted 124gr and were consistent then I would have zero issues right now. I can live with my loading length if the bullets were heavier. I could use less powder and still make PF and I would feel comfortable with the load. I am going to be patient and try all this advice before I get too discouraged. I have only been collecting WW's for about a month and already have 330Lbs of it in my garage. I really want this to work.

[Cloudpeak]

I don't think anyone mentioned yet, but your Lee mold will work better and last much longer if you use Bullplates sprue plate lube on them.

http://bullshop.gunloads.com/tbs_lube.htm

[prs]

Clean the mold with detergent and water and dry. Use plain wood splint to smoke the cavities, do lube the pins and spru plate hinge modestly (I am unfamiliar with the Bullstop, I use plain NRA allox/beeswax on tooth pick) and get the alloy and mold HOT. Keep a very modest closing pressure on the mold handles (like a wimpy hand shake) until the metal begins to set. I consistently get my best (most consistent and well formed) Lee 6 hole wheel weight alloy boolits when they drop hot and frosty. Frosty boolits take on the tumble coating really well too.

To get up to casting temp I fill the mold using a very generous spru waste strip and IMMEDIATELY (just as soon as the alloy is not liquid) dump the spru and boolits for several quick fills and dumps. It should take virtually no pressure to push the spru plate through the spru stip of lead. Those early boolits and spru are just scrap to go back into the pot. I know I am up to temp when (1.) the boolits are nice and evenly frosty, and (2.) when filling the mold, the spru at the first filled cavity is still liquid when the last cavity fill is complete. With tumble lube, I lube them as cast and let the barrel size them. A 6 hole mold will over tax a 10# pot, even in .38 boolits. You need a 20# to keep up. You can conserve heat and boost your pot's capacity by dropping spru waste and the early waste boolits right back into the pot - IF - you use a generous topping of clay based oil dry granules ontop of your fluxed alloy. Such floating blanket preserves heat, reduced splash, and extends the fluxed state. As you develop speed in casting, the mold will get so hot that it takes too long for the spru to solidify. When that happens I set the filled mold blocks onto a hefty piece of aluminum angle scrap for a few seconds as a heat sink.

You need the low-down on Leementing/Beagling and one of the old timers will fill Ya in or give you a link to the 'splanation. I have not had to Leement any of my many 6 holers (a good scrubbing with a tooth brush and hot detergent water has served well); but I have yet to own a single or double Lee set of blocks that did not have to be thoroughly prepped to drop quality pills.

prs

[Colorado4wheel]

I don't think anyone mentioned yet, but your Lee mold will work better and last much longer if you use Bullplates sprue plate lube on them.

http://bullshop.gunloads.com/tbs_lube.htm


I used high temp antisieze as thats what someone said to do.

[Colorado4wheel]

http://www.castpics.net/LeementingKitDocumentation.htm

I got this link for the leementing process. It does not talk about how to fix the venting problem which may be causing a "fill out issue" (which I don't evne know I have).

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=654

This thread talks about how to fix the venting issue. I don't know where to get a carbide scribe but will look into it.

[Recluse]

http://www.castpics.net/LeementingKitDocumentation.htm

I got this link for the leementing process. It does not talk about how to fix the venting problem which may be causing a "fill out issue" (which I don't evne know I have).

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=654

This thread talks about how to fix the venting issue. I don't know where to get a carbide scribe but will look into it.

I use either an Xacto knife and/or a dental pick--one of the ones that hygienists use that have the curled pick thing.

It doesn't take much to open up the vent lines.

As far as lapping the mold cavities goes, I use Comet or Ajax initially on a boolit, then I finish and polish with Mother's Aluminum Polish.

The Bullplate will absolutely make casting much easier.

Don't despair or get worried about MY being cursed on 9mm. I've seen some groups shot by some of the folks here with 9mm boolits--that's why I suspect I'm cursed.

Additionally, I just haven't gotten real serious about my 9mm casting. I'm a wheelgun guy all the way, after that it's .45 ACP. 9mm is way on down there on my list of preferences so far as casting is concerned. I do like the caliber, a lot, and it is my primary carry caliber.

But it is one of the trickier calibers to cast for.

:coffee:

[Colorado4wheel]

Alright, UPDATE on my possible stupidity. Please bear in mind I am new and learning, BUT I think I may have caused the problem and I want people to learn from my possible mistake.

I called Lee and talked with them. Their instructions suck so I did lots of search's about how to get started and lots of people PM'd me advice. They said "use bullet lube to lube the mold" I even read somewhere to lube between the cavities after smoking but don't get it in the bullet mold. I also read you can use anti seize as lube mold. We tried to get it up to temp to get the mold to accept some bullet lube as the lube for the sprue plate, pins, face. But before we remembered that we could dip it in the pot to heat it up we gave up because the mold would not melt the lube. So I used high temp antisieze on the sprue plate, pivot and pins AND the lube face. Lee is saying that might be why I don't have full weight bullets (not venting properly). He said the bullets also might be a tad short. He suggested cleaning the mold and trying again. Good advice. I think that is the only thing I did wrong. They said put nothing on the mold faces. Live and learn. I know this makes me look like a noob. Thanks for the advice, it helped me know the possible issues and learn I may have caused the problem myself. I hope this was my problem. I may buy another 6 caviety RN traditional groove mold just to try it.

[Echo]

Hey, Mate, you ARE a noob, to casting anyway, and That's OK! We all were once upon a time. I've been casting for over 40 years, and have learned more in the couple of years I've been on this forum than I knew existed. No flames here, just the greatest community on the net.

And welcome.

[DLCTEX]

Buildup is one of the reasons I like Bullplate lube, it doesn't happen. It also will not clog vent lines and definitely helps when applied to the alignment surfaces of the mould. Looking at the pictures I'd say you did pretty well and I'll bet the mould was cut too short, causing the light weight.It would be good to try some alloy of a known composition to see if it could be the alloy. Shoot some as cast and see how they do, maybe boosting the charge some since they are light.

[Tazman1602]

Dude clean that mold in HOT water and soap, put a *little* wax or parrafin on the sprue plate if you don't have any bullplate lube, smoke the cavities with a match, cast bullets and lube with liquid alox and shoot them. I've had VERY good luck with Lee TL bullets and no sizing. You *may* be surprised but maybe not.

WAY too many people give up on TL designs because the alox is messy and they can't get by not sizing them.....

Art

PS -- NOTHING but match or butane smoke in the cavities themselves..........................they need to be CLEAN

[Colorado4wheel]

I tried to clean the stuff off. I had a huge burr under the latch for the sprue plate. There was build up between the plates mostly at the pins. I can't believe in 1 session I would get a big burr like that. I only made about 750 bullets at the most. I took the burr off, resanded that area smooth. Plate seems tight to the top. Not sure if I want to keep going with the Lee aluminum molds or just get a Lyman 147 gr. I really like the 147 gr bullets in my gun. I couldn't be more torn about what to do next.

[Recluse]

I tried to clean the stuff off.

Not sure if I want to keep going with the Lee aluminum molds or just get a Lyman 147 gr. I really like the 147 gr bullets in my gun. I couldn't be more torn about what to do next.

Cleaning all that anti-seize stuff off will take some doing. I'd start by soaking the mold in either some naptha, kerosene or even mineral spirits for around 24 hours. Then, take some compressed air and blow it off pretty good, then spray with brake cleaner. Hit it with the compressed air again.

Final step would be to use some denatured or isopropyl alcohol to remove any possible remaining brake cleaner residue.

Once the mold is clean, fire her up then go through the Lee-menting process. Lap the cavities with an Ajax or Comet paste, or even some toothpaste--I've used the Arm & Hammer baking soda toothpaste before. Then go over the cavities with more boolits slathered with Mother's Aluminum Polish.

More brake cleaner, then alcohol, then cast. Pretty boolits.

I pay less attention to the brand of molds I buy and more attention to the style of boolit I want to cast, load and shoot. I like a LOT of Lee's boolit designs, but there are some Lyman and RCBS boolits I like as well.

:coffee: