How fast Lino?

[philthephlier]

I cast about 125 Lyman 358311 LRN's from straight Linotype that measure 19.3 on a hardness tester. How fast can they be pushed from a .357 Mag? Better question maybe is: how fast should they be pushed?

[Lead Fred]

Faster than your gun can take I bet.

I push lino out my 30-30 at a tad under 2200fps.

[beagle]

I'll agree with Lead Fred on that. You can push the 358311 faster than your gun can take probably./beagle

[fecmech]

The Lyman Cast bullet manual shows a max load of 296 or H110 will give 1461 fps out of a 4" BBL.

[runfiverun]

it's a pressure thing.
28k is about the bottom end for obduration.

[lwknight]

You wasted good linotype. It could be cut 50/50 and will make good enough boolits for any pistol/revolver needs, including the 454 casull.

[RobS]

it's a pressure thing.
28k is about the bottom end for obduration.

Agreed with it being a pressure issue vs a velocity issue, although if the bullet fits the bore correclty then obturation will not be needed to seal the bore. If the cylinder throats are smaller than the bore however you will need to rely on obturation to seal up gas blow-by.

The one thing is for certain with a plain base bullet, the high pressures (high end 357 loads--35,000 cup area) require a hard bullet. I would use wheel weights then water quench the bullets to make a 18-20 BHN bullet for those high end loads and use the lino for other mix alloys. If you don't have WW's then cut the Lino with plain lead and then water quench them. Lino is harder to come by and can be used although it is brittle in comparison to a water quenched WW bullet so if hunting is on your mind then a quenched WW bullet is more ductile and will be less likely to shatter on impact of bone etc.

[Bret4207]

Disagree with RobS assertion you NEED a HARD boolit. Nope, no way, uh-uh. What you need is a boolit that fits the gun and the load. Sometimes harder alloys make that easier, sometimes a lot easier. But harder doesn't solve all the problems.

I used to think the same thing. Then I got my lesson among the true boolit masters here, tried what they told me and learned there are almost no hard and fast rules in this game.

[JIMinPHX]

I've gotten a 13bnh GC boolit up over 3,000fps with no leading out of a .223. Accuracy was better below 2500fps. A properly fit boolit isn't going to be what limits your speed in a .357. Pressure will be the limiting factor.

[RobS]

A plain base bullet at max pressures in a 357 mag (40,000 CUP) with a 10 bhn/ WW air cooled bullet.............well whatever. Bring out the choreboy

Key words I mentioned was Plain base bullet as that is what he is shooting and not a gas check is in this application. The second note I said with a hard cast bullet was regarding MAX loads at Max Pressures.

I am glad that everyone can disagree here and I am only giving my experiences and a true boolit master I guess I am not. What works for some people doesn't work for others and I am not here to criticize one way or the other.

Rob

[RobS]

I used to think the same thing. Then I got my lesson among the true boolit masters here, tried what they told me and learned there are almost no hard and fast rules in this game.

You too have had advise by a caster who has been around as you stated and I do believe your response.

Here is a response from a fellow that we all know as I use to be only one tracked mind set with soft bullets=good.......hard bullets=why?

Here is what I wrote to Veral Smith at LBT and his response is in bold.

"The question is, "What is your thought on hard cast bullets." Now I know this is a large vague question but let me narrow it down a bit more. I understand as pressures climb the strength of a softer bullet just can not withstand the force placed upon it etc. so a harder alloy needs to be used in the case of shooting plain base bullets. With that I have always used straight air cooled WW .001-.002 over grove diameter bullets for 45 acp loads and everything is great and dandy. With a purchase of new 45 auto (45 springfield XD) my regular swc loads just would not feed reliably so I switched to a 210 grain RF bullet that fed well but I was getting so so accuracy. On a whelm, I decided to try water dropping bullets and to my surprise my groups tightened up and this is now my favorite load to shoot. So every common thought I use to have towards shooting hard cast bullets in a low pressure rounds has been shattered so to speak. What you got performance wise is normal. Harder keeps the bullets more precise, and gives the lowest chamber pressures, even with the very low pressure ACP.

There we have it from a man who as been "doing cast" for years and is a true credit to cast bullet shooting. The same can be said about Elmer Keith too who created the 44 mag on 2400 and softer alloys. I see that the softer alloy can work..........I've been there, but I have also seen that a hard bullet can and does often times work in favor of max loads and max pressures. More recently I was side swiped so to say regarding a low pressure round the 45 acp and now have a total different look at things regarding hard cast bullets.

Rob

[JIMinPHX]

I didn't realize that we were talking about a plain base. In that case, I usually don't push them much above 1200fps out of a revolver, but other guys here on the board report pushing them as fast as 1400 with good results. In rifles, I get faster speeds out of plain base with good results, but revolvers haven't been as kind to me. It's possible that a better alloy/lube combo might give better results than I get. I haven't tried to experiment with that very much.

If you're casting from a hard alloy, then you want to keep the pressure a little high. I don't have my notes in front of me right now, but there is a rule-of-thumb formula for calculating the pressure vs. the hardness of your alloy for a PB boolit. I think that it was something like bnh x 1400 = psi. That 1400 number is just off the top of my head. It's not the right number, but I think that it's fairly close. That would mean that a 20 bnh PB boolit would like to see around 28,000psi so that it will obdurate correctly. That's just sort of ball park though. There are variations with boolit weight, type, etc.

[Bret4207]

Rob, no offense intended. Veral is a great asset to the casting community and he's helped us out a lot. He's also opinionated and stubborn and has an ego. So was Elmer and so are you and I. "Hardcast" is an advertising term. I see no definition in Verals post defining "hardcast" and I disagree that "harder" remains "more precise". Balance the load and any boolit will remain "more precise" than if you kick it hard and deform it.

We've been through this argument a zillion times before. Suffice it to say that "harder" isn't "better", it's just harder. The "hardcast" hype has brought more people problems over the past few years than anything else I can think of. Fit is King, hardness is just another variable to be used in finding the ultimate fit.

[Lloyd Smale]

I dont care for veral but agree with him on this one. what hes refering to when he says they remain more precise is the fact they dont bump up. When a bullet bumps up it deforms from its original state and it will never precisely do it the same each time. Brett its about impossible to push a 357 or any other mag revolver round to full velocity without "kicking it hard". I to agree with veral that hard bullets do better as well at low pressure if shot out of a gun that is built correctly. Build an ill fitted gun and that is when youll find that those soft bullets shoot better then hard but even then ive never seen one that shot so well that i kept it. Veral can be, well veral, if it will sell a mold he will say about anything but in this case hes just pointing out what hes found and it surely isnt going to make the differnce in selling a mold and ive done enough testing in the 45 acp in revolvers and 1911s to definaletly agree. Ive also shot plain based bullets well about 1400 fps without leading but i dont ever remember a case where i did and got real good accuracy even with real hard alloys. In my opinion when velocitys get over 1200fps your into an area where hard alloys are needed and gas checks are a definate advantage.

[Bass Ackward]

I cast about 125 Lyman 358311 LRN's from straight Linotype that measure 19.3 on a hardness tester. How fast can they be pushed from a .357 Mag? Better question maybe is: how fast should they be pushed?


Phil,

As you can see there are as many possibilities as starts in the sky.

Since you are new to it, why not start low with a good slow powder and come up 1/2 grain at a time and tell us where your gun bails out? Your limit will be the one for that gun at this stage of it's life span.

[RobS]

Fit is King, hardness is just another variable to be used in finding the ultimate fit.

Now there we go............see we do agree on this:mrgreen:. My opening reply to this thread illuded to it as well and follows up on what Lloyd Smale was talking about regarding ill manufactured guns.

" Agreed with it being a pressure issue vs a velocity issue, although if the bullet fits the bore correclty then obturation will not be needed to seal the bore. If the cylinder throats are smaller than the bore however you will need to rely on obturation to seal up gas blow-by."

Lloyd Smale, what you stated is what I have come to find too. Thank you for clarifying the "more precise" principle of what Veral was talking about as I believe that others will better understand.

Bass Ackward, thanks for bringing the tread back to it's roots and you have good advise as to simply "shoot the gun" and find out what she likes. All guns shoot differently and like different loads etc.

philthephlier, take er run...............do let us know how and what you discover along the way. [smilie=w:

[JIMinPHX]

My $0.02 on hardness vs. accuracy -
I agree that the harder boolits tend to be a little more accurate, but the difference has been small in my experience. Going from 12bnh to 23bnh with a rifle boolit at 2200fps decreased my group size by maybe 10%. The small gain in accuracy was not enough to justify the reduced terminal performance on game, since I was using this as a hunting boolit. Adding a hollow point also gave me another small improvement in accuracy. Yes, I agree that the difference is there, but it's hard to see unless you are really looking for it.

[MtGun44]

Sorry RobS, but I shoot 11 BHN from both .357 mag and .44 mag at max power all the time
with very good accy and zero leading. I'm with Bret, fit is first, then good design, then
proper lube, and then the individual gun can throw in some substantial variation. However,
these loads mentioned above work in several different guns from different manufacturers.
I find no particular benefits from going extremely hard, anything over air cooled wheel wts
seems to be a waste time and alloying metal to me. Not saying it doesn't work, but that
it is unnecesary. These are all plain base, mostly Keith, but some Lee LBT-style and some
actual LBT molds. I have no use for GCs in pistols, but they are nice in rifles.

Bill

[RobS]

MTGun44:

Thats cool..........I have no issues with anyone shooting hard or soft bullets, it doesn't matter as long as it works for the intended purpose of the individual. What I post is my experiences and what works for me and what has not worked so others can learn from it should they come across the same or similar issues. No point in reinventing the wheel and for me this forum has been a time saver regarding this aspect.

Should another viewer read only one way (shooting a hard bullet or shooting a soft bullet) they may never find what works for their purpose. In light of things, I did not state my opening post correctly in that I said "The one thing is for certain with a plain base bullet, the high pressures (high end 357 loads--35,000 cup area) require a hard bullet."

Instead: I should have said, "One thing is for certain in my experiences I have had less problems with leading and have had tighter accuracy using harder bullets in magnum revolvers."


With that

I have and still do feed my firearms both soft and hard bullets and have success both ways and I am not the determining factor on what I shoot......my guns tell me all I need to know. For magnums, as I have said, I have better luck shooting a harder bullet in them and that is my story just as you or anyone else has theirs. I understand you have great results shooting softer bullets with magnum revolvers and I've read many of your posts talking about it; I even seen pictures of groups you shot etc. I do value your experiences and have enjoyed reading your posts as there is wisdom there.

Regards

[Bret4207]

Robs and Lloyd- sorry I'm so late with this. main computer died...again. I have no quarrel with the notiuon that heavier loads "kick" a boolit harder and that harder alloys can help keepa boolit from deforming. I'm just trying to get the "harder isn;t better, just harder" idea across.