Shaking my head again

[gray wolf]

howdy folks,
Yes I am shaking my head over here. I just got off another forum
Another forum--GW say it ain't so.
I am at a loss for some of the reloading questions that are asked and the answers they spawn.
It is not hard to tell that the people asking are new to casting, reloading and just the basics of what is going on in a rifle/pistol when you pull the trigger
Or what makes a good safe bullet and why it leaves the barrel.
So many horse before the cart situations.
This is certainly reinforcement to the thought that more people have taken up the sport. ( nothing new there Eh ) I love the INTERNET but I think it does an injustice to many of our young folks. It seems that all they can do is ask other people to do the work for them, and the thing is the work they want done can only be done by them. I am not speaking about questions like --how do I get started doing this or that or what is the best way to approach a problem, nor about what equipment should I get.
It is a lack of basic understanding that I believe Leeds to what I am talking about.
There seems to be an overload of the do for me mentality. I get a little worried about some of them at times.
That leads me to our forum. I think one of the things I like is the fact that folks here have enough knowledge and understanding of what is going on, so the questions asked are thought about and then an answer is given.
Most times with safety right up there on top. As it should be.
I hate to say the blind leading the blind (I said it so there ) but that's the way
I see it many times on SOME not all other places I visit.
another thing is Patients above and beyond the norm for people just stating out.
I think a new person just lurking here gets enough strait up talk so that when they join and start asking questions they are way ahead of the whole proses.
I remember as a kid--there was no INTERNET--no knowledge base but the reading material or the guy at the local gun shop. If you were lucky you had a dad that
thought enough about you to be interested in what you were doing and helped you like your own mentor. Perhaps he/dad or a close friend loved what they were doing and wanted to just share it with a youngster or someone that expressed an interest. I never bought things from the INTERNET--there was no INTERNET.
It was a collection of catalogs,books and every scrap of paper I could get my hands on relating to what interested me.
If I had a problem I solved it myself and when I got stumped I found the answers
by doing research and then tried to confirm my findings with someone who new more than me.
Wow what got me to start this. I guess I just started thinking about what has happened to the learning proses of some of the people now days.
Any you guy's feel the same way?
I am very happy with our forum and I can tell other people are also.

[Cactus Farmer]

I feel the same way .......seems they want the answers without even trying to figure it out on their own. I,too, started young, loading for 30-06 and m-1 carbine.....loved the shooting but the bullets were costly for a 12 yearold. Someone said you could make them with lead, I inquired "HOW?" and they sent me over to a fellows house named Cowboy Beatty. Mom drove the car and I went up to the door and asked for "Cowboy". He took me to his "dog house" in the backyard and we proceeded to cast and lube a big cigar box full of 311359s all neatly stacked in layers. I was in awe of having that many boolits at one time! Ordered a Lyman 45 and a 31133 mold. Found a 5lb Potter bottom pour at the gunsmith shop. I'm fixed up. 31133 won't feed in M-1.......bought a two cavity 311359 and there was joy in the world.
I still have all that equipment and much more. I'm 61 now ,lost Cowboy two years ago....still visited 'til the last. We were always talking boolits and lube. I sure miss him....

[rtracy2001]

I remember as a kid--there was no INTERNET--no knowledge base but the reading material or the guy at the local gun shop. If you were lucky you had a dad that
thought enough about you to be interested in what you were doing and helped you like your own mentor. Perhaps he/dad or a close friend loved what they were doing and wanted to just share it with a youngster or someone that expressed an interest.

It is a different world now because of the Internet. For years the younger generations (of which I suppose I do qualify at 33) were told everything you need to know is on the Internet. As a result the basic research skills are lost, replaced by google, yahoo, and ask.com. Go to your local library and look around, 90% of the people there are either using the Internet or waiting to do so. I got funny looks the last time I went because I asked where the card catalog was. (It is online too BTW)

I was lucky on several counts, first my dad reloaded and taught be basic safety, second I didn't get an Internet connection until college.

The real question becomes, do we give them what they want, and keep them shooting (and safe) or do we risk putting them off the sport by telling them how to research and come up with their own answers?

I guess I rambled a bit there. The point is the internet forums have started to replace the mentors, which is bad because we can't see who has all there fingers when we get info from the internet. I certainly would want to think twice before taking advice from a reloader who only has three fingers on each hand. (Tell me agian how you lost those reloading?)

[44man]

Yes! :cbpour:I too started out the hard way and depended on books, magazines that really went into depth with loading and loads back then and most important, my own experience gained with much work.
Then something happened with all the lawyers jumping on everything and much info in magazines is now missing mainly because gun makers all say you have to shoot only factory loads.
There are no dumb questions and there are no single answers to get to the same place, in fact one question can spawn a million answers.
Right here at cast boolits is the very best place to pick things up to try.
Some fellas here have money to play and some are dirt poor but there is no distinction unlike a few other sites where only fancy guns are bragged about.
Sure a lot better then the old days, that's for sure.
However, you are correct that none of us can make a new shooter a better shot unless they actually do some work on their own. That has never changed and the internet is not the goose that laid the golden egg. :bigsmyl2:
Good post!

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Gray Wolf, you have it right, some of these people want to be handed everything on a platter, no work, no research, no reloading/load development, just give them the answer to their sometimes stupid questions. Some of these people scare me , If they can't figure out anything for themselves, they probably have no business reloading or casting......IMHO
We all have questions at times, but a little common sense would answer most of these off the wall questions...IMHO I started casting toy solgiers way back when in the 50's and went on to a 30/30 and 38 and on to where I am today, whole different world today. :cbpour: :redneck:

[Echo]

Grey Wolf, I think a good deal of the loss of training in the shooting sports may derive from the loss of Gun Clubs. Working at the County Range, I see folks bringing new guns, and burning ammo, without any coaching or critiqueing, and doing the best they can, unfortunately making mistakes, and getting real good at replicating those mistakes.

We have a couple of gun clubs here. One range is about 40 miles west of town, and they are a good bunch. Mainly rifle shooting, but also alphabet pistol shooting, too, as well as silhouette. The other (that I am aware of) is about 15 miles north of town, primarily a pistol club, but seemingly more intent on shooting MG's. We had a nice range on the outskirts of town, but neighbors complained, and Clintonistas got it closed down. We are trying to resurrect the club with a new range where there are no neighbors.

I don't see any shooting classes run by these clubs, nor reloading classes, nor casting classes. They may exist, but I am not aware of them. So how is a guy (or gal) to learn? Internet? Well, there is our forum. I don't surf, so I don't know the capabilities of other forums, so can't comment.

And kids don't get firearm training as I, and you, and most others our age, did. Both parents shot, and the first gun I shot was a Remington Model 12 pump .22. I was probably 4 when I first shot that gun. We would go out on a deserted trestle, over a bayou, and plink turtles w/.22 Shorts. Just bounce off the shell, but it was practice. Happily, I was able to introduce shooting to my kids, and grandkids, but many their age don't have any shooting mentors.

The PC movement has a lot to do with it too. Our local Comm Coll had shooting courses when I moved here, but discontinued them decades ago. Gun ads aren't accepted in the newspapers any more. Shooting is looked down on by the intelligentsia, and shooting events aren't reported in the press.

So. What can we do about it? Maybe volunteer at our local clubs to teach marksmanship, teach reloading, teach casting, show folks the right way of doing it, and advertise the classes. Those are about the only ideas I can come up with.

[Guesser]

I also started out reading. Back in the 50's Winchester-Western published give away ballistics tables for their ammo, they were free from any ammo dealer. I picked them up and read them, I should say I memorized them, I still have one of them. A neighbor that worked for Dad from time to time reloaded and his uncle cast bullets for his Colts and Winchesters. That was my introduction, in 1954 and I'm still reading and learning and doing. I like the internet but I have to agree that it breeds lazy attitudes and the assumption that all one has to do is ask; as opposed to studying. The internet is a good tool but books are still my best friends.
Thanks for opening the topic!!!!!!!

[JSnover]

People are quick to ask instead of reading a book and we're too eager to help, instead of saying "Go read a book."
The reason most of us started out reading books is because the internet hadn't been written yet.

[Finster101]

I'm being honest here. I am 49 and have never cast a single boolit or reloaded my fist round. I have been lurking for a while trying to pick up some knowledge as I am about ready to start. An older friend of mine that I have known since I was 6 gave me all of his reloading gear due to his failing eye sight. I am working my way through the Speer reloading manual. If I ask what some may think are stupid questions, go easy on me. I don't have a ton of money to experiment with thus I try to see what you have done that has and has not worked. I have figured out that I will probably go with a tumble lube design to make it eaasier for me. I know I'm coming kind of late to the game, but we all start somewhere. As to the "internet generation" remember how much smarter YOU were at 18. I really do enjoy this forum as it is pretty much always good natured and mature and I am sure many others do too. James

[jr545]

I just wish all you old farts would do all the work for me.
Yanno, I'm a busy guy and don't really have time for all the boring details...:kidding:

[Thumbcocker]

A subgroup of the "tell me how to do it" set is the "if I just put enough stuff on the gun I don't have to pratice" set. I worked with a young man who had a .22-250 and wanted to hunt coyotes. He went to the range and was having trouble hitting. I suggested that he put his scope on it's lowest setting and do some dry firing at home. I also suggested that he tie the laces of a pair of shoes together and hang them off the end of the barrel since he wanted to shoot off hand.

He told me he didn't have time to do that stuff. He decided he needed a better scope! Later with handguns I, once again, suggested dry firing at a refrigerator magnet in his apartment during commercials while he was watching tv in the evenings. He didn't want to be bothered with that either and thought he might need a different gun. Later he became an FBI agent. He called me from training and said "Guess what. The instructors here want us to dry fire to get our trigger pull and sight picture right." ARRR. What are you gonna do.

[jr545]

I'm being honest here. I am 49 and have never cast a single boolit or reloaded my fist round. I have been lurking for a while trying to pick up some knowledge as I am about ready to start. An older friend of mine that I have known since I was 6 gave me all of his reloading gear due to his failing eye sight. I am working my way through the Speer reloading manual. If I ask what some may think are stupid questions, go easy on me. I don't have a ton of money to experiment with thus I try to see what you have done that has and has not worked. I have figured out that I will probably go with a tumble lube design to make it eaasier for me. I know I'm coming kind of late to the game, but we all start somewhere. As to the "internet generation" remember how much smarter YOU were at 18. I really do enjoy this forum as it is pretty much always good natured and mature and I am sure many others do too. James


I don't look at any questions as stupid.
Sometimes a question has been asked ad nausium and a quick search will reveal the answer. Someone unwilling to look for an answer before asking the question is quite often admonished on the forums.
I think clarification to answers given are much better received.

[bigdog454]

I believe that it is the dumbing down of our youth. Even in schools now, teachers are told not to fail students, they are supposed to give them the answers (NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND). I have mentored a couple of persons in reloading, and as a newbi they had dumb questions, some I answered and some I told them where to get the information. I don't wish to be harsh on new reloaders or casters and feel that we should try to mentor them But, they should also get them selves a good loading manual and find their loads and much info. If their question would be about a bulk or pull down powder, then this is the place.
I too have questions, after all I've only been reloading for 50+ years and casting for about 49+ But you guys have a wealth of knowledge and I do not wish to reinvent the wheel, and maybe I don't have the time; the years are catching up with me and time is getting shorter.

[wiljen]

This same group tends to ask:

"What is the best load for <Insert cartridge name here> ?"
No purpose listed, no gun listed, just expect a generic single best load.

"I was told X, why did it not work?"
No-one is in a better position to make this determination than the person asking the question.

"How can I turn a 30-30 into a 300 H&H mag?"
There has to be a way to do this without increasing pressures, you guys are just holding out on me is the general mentality here.

[bigdog454]

After giving this some thought, maybe there should be a forum set up for the newbi questions; at one time many moons ago, us old farts were newbi's too. If we don't mentor these guys, who will? If a forum of this type were set up there should be some parameters to it; ie. don't ask for loads that are found in all of the books, and did you read the instructions that came with X. I personally don't want to turn a new reloader or castor off to a great lifetime hobby. The internet should be here to help, not discourge them.

[sundog]

I'll be 60 this year. All we had was books, magazines, and maybe if lucky enough an uncle or neighbor (really lucky if it was Dad) to mentor us. There was no internet, no videos, few clubs that were mainly inner circles of friends. Most of us had to make it up as we went along with what little we could glean from the few sources available. Until Shooters, and now Cast Boolits. One difference between all of us and everyone else is that most of us are 'tinkerers'. That's how we got here. Our collective knowledge has grown, not arithmetically, by exponentially since we have all met. It's a brave new world. I have found it quite interesting how over the years we have tended to take on a group 'attitude' to folks who are trying to learn and those who are looking for a hand out. Read the posts, and you'll see what I mean. For the most part it is always cordial, but you can tell by the tone that we can see through the ones who are looking for a hand out, and those looking for a hand up. I read as much now, probably more, than I ever have thanks to the internet. Of course, the pics and videos are just a big plus.

[Gee_Wizz01]

I started reloading in 1970, I became interested in reloading in 1968. My Dad and Mom were avid hunters (and school teachers), and encouraged me to research the subject thoroughly before I bought any equipment. I think I read every book on the subjec in our library. When I went to buy my equipment I talked to the owner of one of our local gun shops and he gave me his opinions and I purchased my equipment from him. He gave me a lot of good advice and I still have all of the equipment. I still use the old Rock Chucker and it has served me well. Fast forward to this year and a friend at work wants to start reloading. He wants to know which progressive to start with and what loads he should use. He thinks he is just setting up a little ammo factory and everything is by a set recipe. After discussing it with him he understands that it isn't that simple --he is a brilliant engineer and he understands now. Another friend that reloads told him to buy a the most expensive progressive he can afford and just "Go for it".

Another issue is gun clubs don't seem to want to have reloading classes. I discussed the issue with a gun club I was a member of in Va about 15 years ago and the president told me it was too much of a legal liability for the club to sponsor the class. I think this is a shame because we are letting our on hobby and sport die because we are afraid of the legal ramifications.

G

[waksupi]

There already is a section for newbies here. They are called "Stickies". Some of the best info you will find on specific topics.

[gray wolf]

I think I will work on some standard answers for some of the questions

What it the best load for my 308?
Answer--What does your load book say?

What is the best powder for my 300 Win mag?
Answer--what does your load book or the Manufacturer say?

What is the best bullet for my 45 ACP
Answer--Ummm--I don't know.

I mixed some 4227 with bulls eye. It still smells ok should I use it.
Answer--- Yes put it in your garden.

My friend said he uses smokeless in his muzzle loader. What is a good starting load for me.
Answer---Don't call anyone!! just stop and read the dam owners Manuel.

I think I used the wrong powder in my 9MM, will it change my point of aim.
Shoot them and you may not be able to see your point of aim.
Please pull the bullets and READ the dam instructions( call the power co.

I want to shoot cast in my 30/06 I have been told that my friends uncle uses bulls eye.
Should I fill the case with powder?
NO ! get a cast bullet reloading book and read it.

How many loads can I get out of a load of powder?
Answer-- How many wipes can you get out of a roll of toilet paper?
OR ---go back and re-read your question and see if it makes sense to you.

I am still working on it. I am sure the list will get longer.

Now here is what I like.
I am working up a load for my 270, I called the Hodgon Co. and they recommended H-4831
I have the MIN.and Max load written down.
The Nosler bullet people said there .277 ballistic tip is a good shooting bullet, and not to expensive. It does not have a canalure, but my very good friend who is a reloader and I trust very much said " Load a round in an empty case with a loose neck and chamber it. that should tell you how far out the bullet needs to be in order to contact the lands. Then back of .030
and work up the load. watch for pressure indications. That sounds like good advise.
But I don't know about high pressure so I called Hodgon and they explained it to me.
Wow glad I did I had it all wrong in my head.
I have read about neck turning but I don't know enough about it yet. So I will study up on it before I spend the money on the neck turner.
All my shooting friends use safety glasses of some kind I must use corrective eye glasses.
I called my eye doctor and she told me my lenses were not shatter proof. But they could make me a set that would protect my eyes. Man I am glad I checked.
Any way, I have done all I can at this point.
Can someone help me out as to how I can use this information so I can have a safe accurate Load.
ANSWER
Sir it looks like you have done a little homework and you sure do deserve an answer to your question. I will tell you what has helped me and I am sure there are others that will be glad to help also.

[Mumblypeg]

Books are a wondeful thing, then and now. The internet is great also, but at some point you just have to get your feet wet. Read my tag line... All smart explorers proceed with caution but that's how we learn, by exploration.

[bishopgrandpa]

I agree with Sundog. We would like to have had the internet and the old sages to mentor us. I am 70 years old and started in the late fifties. I am still learning just like the newbies. I think the difference is who among the new guys will stay very long? The ones with a true interest will become one of us tinkerers because we WANT to learn for ourselves. A little help along the way is good.

[theperfessor]

Like you guys I have my own opinions on this. I'm 56, so I grew up without the 'Net. I used to hang out in the local library all the time after school, reading about guns and airplanes and science, both fact and fiction. Bought the first MacIntosh that hit Evansville in 1984 and have used computers ever since. (But I can still use my Pickett slide rule I got as a gift when I was in high school..)

I work with college students in the Engineering and Manufacturing areas. Modern engineers and manufacturing professionals use and rely on the 'Net for almost everything. As I see it, the problems fall into three areas.

(1). Lack of motivation in researching topics. By the time I get them, a lot of students are accustomed to being spoon fed most of the information and answers they need to solve closed-end, one-right-answer-only problems. True, there are many problems that only have one right answer (2+2=4), but most real problems in engineering and manufacturing have many right (and even more wrong) answers. I see it as my job to teach students how to evaluate the possible options available to determine the best solution to open-ended problems, based on various criteria (cost, simplicity, production rate, etc).

(2). Critical thinking. I don't care where students get the information they need, but I do care that the information is critically evaluated. I've seen as many errors in textbooks as I have on "reliable" websites. At least on the 'Net bad info can be quickly challenged and changed, but a printed textbook may take years for the info to be corrected in a later edition.

(3). Many students have never made anything real and don't know their own capabilities and limitations. When I was a kid, we played with Lincoln Logs, Erector sets, and built tree houses and forts in trees and brushpiles. We got practical experience in making and breaking things. Except for Legos, most kids don't have any experiences in making anything real, and if they did they probably got yelled at by their parents for the damage they caused when they broke something. Again I see this as my job, to show them the many problems that they face (and can overcome) when turning a concept into a real product, and to be patient with them when they screw up and break something.

While I get paid a fair wage for my work, if money was my only concern I could easily double my income by working in industry. But here is more to life than money - my satisfaction comes from helping my students grow into responsible, capable professionals who are mentally and academically prepared to become good, contributing members of our American society. The growth I see in students from their freshman to senior years is very, very rewarding.

There isn't a hell of a lot wrong with the young adults I deal with, they just need somebody to show them the right way to do something, to hold them responsible for their actions, and to praise them when they do something noteworthy.

We can all be patient mentors in one way or another, can't we?

[jcwit]

All I can say is GrayWolf and many here, myself are just old school.

However I will say that there does not seem to as many of the info articules in the magazines as there used to be. Check out a copy of the American Rifleman from the '30's, '40's, '50's, and compare it to what they send us today.

This also holds tru to other types of mags such as Popular Mechanics, Popular Science, Mother Earth News ect., ect.

[swheeler]

There already is a section for newbies here. They are called "Stickies". Some of the best info you will find on specific topics.

I agree with this whole heartedly. I always try to be polite and if nothing else will give the shortest answer possible, usually someone who wants their ego stroked will expound on the short answer. Win-win, original poster gets his answer and long winded poster gets his ego stroked, so both feel better. Just life

[lwknight]

Like everyone else, I don't see any questions as "dumb questions" but, I do see a lot of lazy questions like: Educate me on reloading? .
Perfessor says it all pretty elequetly and accurately.

[JesseCJC]

At 25 and the only gun enthusiast in my family all I know is the internet for resources. I did purchase a few reloading books, the abc's of reloading and the lyman casting book and still hesitate to ask questions. Maybe it's just the timid approach for not wanting to hear RTFM but it is what it is sometimes I guess. I do know that I try to read as much as possible first before asking questions and a big thanks to ammosmith and iraqveteran8888 for their youtube videos. Sometimes I do see a lot of load data questions though and I tend to just avoid them flat outright unless it's just someone asking about comparing load data between different manuals.

[Hickory]

When I got into shooting as a young man I knew nothing about reloading.
When I saw that shooting was an expensive hobby, I knew I had to start reloading or else find a cheaper hobby. Maybe bird watching!

At the time (1970ish) one of the old guys I worked with and he was really old -about 55- was into hunting, shooting and reloading. But I held back as far as asking him any questions, because he was a "know-it-all".

Well, I'm here to tell you that "know-it-all's" have their place and should not be sold short. What I learned from Jim was right on and he was willing to supply me with things such as reloading manuals, magazines, verbale instruction, along with the loan of some old and slightly used reloading equippment. All the "what-to-do's and how-to-do-its" came first hand from Jim. I really learned a lot from Jim. He was more than willing to share, (you know how Know-it-all's are)

Over time I weaned myself from Jim's instruction and mentorship and expanded into casting my own boolits. At the time I thought they were only bullets, but now I now that they are"boolits" a great and noble creation of the precious metal from the earth known as lead.
In the past year I have learned still more here then I thought I would. Because in years past I tended to load, cast and shoot with in the limit of my knowlage of these things.

Learning in life is never ending.[smilie=w:

[harrya]

OK, I just couldn't pass this up. I started out reloading with a little Lee handloader on the kitchen floor of Military base housing. (If they would have know, I'd been kicked off base) Popping a primer often enough to keep the wife unhappy. Had to do this due to NO money as a young GI. Got into casting for about the same reason a few years later. Fast fwd to a Dillion Progressive (16 yrs ago as a 50 yr birthday present/after 25 years of single stage only) and picking up every ww I can find/beg or almost steal. I say all of this to say: I've read, read and read, I've surfed, surfed and surfed and have actually learned more in the past 3 weeks on this and one other casting site. You guyz are a wealth of info and wisdom (gad, I HATE to say that, it'll start something). As 95% of you are saying, read, read, read, and then ask the good question. If you just dump powder to fill up the case and jam down the heavy thingy in the end, PLEASE get an insurance policy with MY name on it.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI
I have taught school, JR. H.S. & H.S. for 18yrs. now.
I have been told to dummy down both my science & math classes by 5 different principals. This is in Alg.,geology, biology, chem. & phisics
In that time only 5 pairents have ever thanked me for challenging there kids.
The rest all think I am too demanding. Basicly I believe the majority just want me to babysit.:Fire::Fire:

[Tazman1602]

People SHOULD be able to ask us questions and we should be nice enough to answer them. Without the internet and this forum I would not be casting the nice bullets and getting the results I have just recently been getting.................

...........that being said I have read/bought a minimum of six new cast bullet/load books and READ THE DADGONE THINGS and THEN I start asking questions.

You see, the young people (and by young people I mean anyone under 40..........) have grown up with the internet, and a great many of them MAKE PROPER USE of it ----- but just as many don't.

My son is an RN and he keeps EVERYTHING on a "device" of some kind and reads/takes notes with it. Works very well for him

The internet works for I also, BUT -- and I'm sure some of the older crown here can sympathize with this, I absolutely, positively cannot make use of e-books and the like. I HAVE to have a printed on book to make notes in the margins, highlight, and mark pages. It's just the way I learned to do things and I'll never be happy with an ebook.

I can find stuff in my books and notes ten times faster than I can with any ebook or forum, but these forums have information in them that no book can give me --- many thousands of man years of reloading experience.

I think we can access all kinds of information with the internet, but as a Network Engineer on computer systems, I'm NOT sure we are better off now than we were without computers.

OK I spewed enough. What's the best load for my 450 Marlin? Can I just fill the case up with some of that 2400 powder I read so much about and get a good load? I bet it would really go bang.....

I can help ignorance. Ignorance is a lack of knowledge but a willingness to learn. Stupid is a lack of knowledge and no willingness to learn. I can't fix stupid.

Art

PS -- AND YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE? IMPROPER USE OF GRAMMER AND SPELLING ON SOME OF THE FORUMS KILLS ME, DAD WOULD HAVE WHUPPED ME WITH A SWITCH IF I SPELT LIKE SOME PEOPLES

[Wayne Smith]

We all have our specialties. I started loading at 16 with two Lee Loaders, one for my 16 ga. single shot and one for my Dad's 30-30. I used the information in the Lee Loader for loads and started reading magazines. Dad paid for the components, I loaded for his rifle. He never did learn to load.

I never cast a boolit until 10 years ago and it was the guys on the BPCR Shooters.com board that mentored me, as well as the guys on the Cast Bulets site there. I know I asked some dumb questions - but was able to answer some wood finishing questions as well. I got the Lyman Cast Bullet book and read it. I started reading handloader. And I started loading my cast boolits. I've never had a mentor at my side, always in a book or on the internet. I've mentored others since and will continue to do so.

[MT Gianni]

I just wish all you old farts would do all the work for me.
Yanno, I'm a busy guy and don't really have time for all the boring details...:kidding:

jr, send me your guns and I'll work up some loads and send them back when I get around to it. OK?

[Lee]

An old fart also, I value the Internet very much. There is a wealth of information out there. For example, a freezer I thought I might have to throw out came back to life after an Internet search on "power controller". (Us old farts used to call it a "start capacitor" The power controller BTW, is a PTC) For $15 delivered I had one, replaced the burned out one, and now have a good as new freezer. How many out there can say that 25 years ago they could do this from the comfort of their own room, at a comparable price, just by visiting the library? Some, I'm sure. Many? Not so sure.
That said, the Internet is full of 2-bit-swingin-dik-self-proclaimed-egspurts(just ask Al Gore, he invented it, you know) who will lead you down the primrose path of destruction. Like any information, Internet information needs scrutinized, not just accepted without question.
As for kids today, I'm finding more and more who are unable to walk upright with their mouth closed. 'Course they can whup my ass on the x-box. Geez, there's a skill!!

[canyon-ghost]

I'm being honest here. I am 49 and have never cast a single boolit or reloaded my fist round.

It's never too late to start. Welcome, Finster101! I started casting when I was around 42 or so. Nowdays, I'm 53 and still learning and collecting molds and lead. My best reference would be the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook Edition #3. Notice that it's a book, not a website. It has enough pictures and print to get a guy familiar with the process and get you started. I must admit that I have friends in silhouette shooting that have shown me reloading presses and casting furnaces but, that just makes you want your own equipment that suits your particular budget. Of course, loading 32-20s on a Lyman Turret press all afternoon didn't hurt me one bit, I learned what brass cases feel like when it goes good.
I'm a fan of seek and ye shall find, if you want it, whether it's information or experience then, by all means, go after it!
Ron

[higgins]

I have found this a most helpful site, populated mostly by adult gentlemen who act their age (a lot of them pretty close to my 60). I too look at a couple of other forums related to my interest in military boltguns. When the ammo craziness hit last year you could tell a lot of new people were getting into reloading. For a while I would answer some of the newbie inquiries with the usual "get a couple of good manuals and read them at least twice before you attempt to load the first round, particularly the technique and reference sections", but soon gave up. It became apparent that a lot of new reloaders have no intention of studying manuals before they begin loading. It's sad that so many younger people don't have the study and critical thinking skills The Perfessor mentioned. Add to the impatient people those rookie reloaders who are trying reloading stunts and those determined to do something the hard way, and it can get discouraging. It's very true that we never quit learning. I've been shooting cast pistol bullets for about forty years, but just last year cast and loaded my first cast rifle bullets. This site was a very useful refresher course for a long-time cast pistol shooter, and invaluable to a first-time rifle caster. That's why I'm pretty patient with new reloaders and casters as long as their questions indicate that they have read enough to ask a good question, or might be looking for a second or third opinion regarding something they've read in a manual.

[jr545]

jr, send me your guns and I'll work up some loads and send them back when I get around to it. OK?

How thoughtful....:lol:

[Bass Ackward]

Two points:

1. I think that maybe we forget what it was really like. There were false and misleading articles that lead to old wives tales and such.

2. It is " OUR " fault that the discussions that dominate are so basic. We respond, but we do not initiate.

Ask yourself this and answer honestly. If you had to do it again, would YOU make use of this resource or would you simply repeat your previous learning curve?

[crabo]

While I get paid a fair wage for my work, if money was my only concern I could easily double my income by working in industry. But here is more to life than money - my satisfaction comes from helping my students grow into responsible, capable professionals who are mentally and academically prepared to become good, contributing members of our American society. The growth I see in students from their freshman to senior years is very, very rewarding.

There isn't a hell of a lot wrong with the young adults I deal with, they just need somebody to show them the right way to do something, to hold them responsible for their actions, and to praise them when they do something noteworthy.

We can all be patient mentors in one way or another, can't we?

This sums it up for me. I teach high school autobody. If you build a good relationship with your students, you can push them hard and hold them accountable for their actions and learning.

It seems like the ones I push the hardest, love me the most. We worked today for about 6 hours getting ready for SkillsUSA contest next week. I was constantly correcting a kid for all the stuff he was doing wrong. After about the 8th time I asked him if he thought I was picking on him. He told me no, that he knew I just wanted him to learn it right.

Many kids respond well to being held accountable if you have built the relationship in advance.

I have also been fortunate to start four people casting and have another 2 lined up waiting for class to begin.

[largom]

Two points:

1. I think that maybe we forget what it was really like. There were false and misleading articles that lead to old wives tales and such.

2. It is " OUR " fault that the discussions that dominate are so basic. We respond, but we do not initiate.

Ask yourself this and answer honestly. If you had to do it again, would YOU make use of this resource or would you simply repeat your previous learning curve?



+1 There are no dumb questions, only dumb answers.
As a kid I had no mentors and worse yet, I had no money. I read every book about guns or reloading in the school library. Knowing I had to take the book back I copied every important [to me] piece of information in them. Still have some of those notes after almost 60 yrs.

I fear a lot of our members hesitate to ask a question for fear of sounding dumb or foolish. I also believe there are many members that may be in the same boat as I was as a kid. NO mentors and no money, only a desire to be able to shoot or hunt. With that said, there is still a tremendous amount of free information in the library's and on the internet. Put forth a little effort and then ask all the questions you want.

Larry

[462]

This topic, or one similar, was discussed, sometime back. I opined, then, that there is at least an entire generation who have had all the answers given to them -- the dumbiing down of America -- and they aren't the least bit shy about asking others for help.

I don't have any qualms about helping a new member, and find it more than a little bit enjoyable to do so. However, I refuse to answer the "What is the best load for a .357 Magnum?" question, and most times don't bother reading anything more than the post's title. To my way of thinking, that's a person who has made no attempt to find the answer on their own, and is looking for nothing more than a quick answer. Worse, still, they may not even have a reloading manual and are simply relying on others for information.

That aforementioned generation hasn't any concept of independance and self-reliance and don't know how to think for themselves. As Bob Dylan so aptly put it in "Idiot Wind", "It's a wonder that you still know how to breathe."

As to the oft stated, "there are no dumb questions", that may be true, but it doesn't mean there aren't a lot of dumb people asking them.

What scares me the most is that they are able to vote -- and the results of the last election show that they most likely did -- and spawn.

[AZ-Stew]

I got shredded by some folks here a couple of years ago when I told someone to go buy a manual and READ it. Several other folks had already given the questioner a lot of good advice, and I figured all that was left was for the guy to do was to get a good manual and spend an evening or two studying it. Some here took offense at my suggestion. Could have been the way I worded it, but I stand by the suggestion.

I'm with Perfessor. I work for a VERY high tech company as a mechanical designer. One of my jobs there is to train degreed engineers to read mechanical drawings (something they DON"T teach in engineering school, but don't get me started) and how to read and apply an American Society Of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) standard called Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing. It's a specialized way of dimensioning and tolerancing engineering drawings. What gets me is what little some of these MS and PhD types know about how things actually work. I've had to (no, I'm not kidding) teach one how to use a Phillips screwdriver (you have to push down while you turn it), I've had to explain that EVERYTHING has tolerances (nothing's perfect) and I was told by one of our techs that one engineer picked up a split lock washer from the floor and thought it was broken. When I'm asked to interview new people for our mechanical design group, I only have one question: What do you do in your spare time, such as hobbies? If they jog, sky dive, basket weave or perform community service, I'm not interested. I want guys (or gals) who actually MAKE THINGS to keep themselves busy. One of our last two interviewees builds and flies model airplanes. He knows how things work and how to solve his own problems. That's all I need to know. We can train him on the rest (CAD software and specifics of the job). The second one is a young guy (younger than my kids) and was first in his engineering class at a local university. He also rebuilds and customizes bicycles in his spare time. He gets his hands dirty and knows how to weld. Another hands-on guy. He learns VERY quickly. Tell him once, and he's off and running. It will be fun watching him develop new stuff.

Anyway, yes, I think kids today want too much handed to them. My folks said the same thing. I had to learn shooting, handloading and casting from books and magazines, followed by analysis of my own experiences because I didn't have any mentors. On the other hand, I'm not too sure I want to jump on the X-Box generation. My mom always told me, "You'll never make a living sitting in front of a television!" Well, mom, I actually do make my living sitting in front of a CRT, but it's hooked to a computer instead of a TV receiver. I could just as well have gotten into TV production and done the same thing. Who knows where the X-Box will lead us in 40 years?

Regards,

Stew

[batman]

dear sirs
I am a farm boy and I have been taught that some thing are done a certain way and should not be done another way because it just wont work or will cost to much. I try to learn as much as I can on my own but with the wealth of knowledge that is here on this site ,I just figure that I should ask first before I do something dumb. I was in a hurry to start casting that I put about 150 lb of ww and made ingots.If I had asked first I would not had to sell them right back to the salvage yard ,ZINK ,TO HOT and to think all I had to do is ask.COLD ww in melted ww and BANG on the walls on me [ I'm ok] . Sometimes you do not know what to ask and when.
I to am guilty of asking before I even start but isn't that what the site is for.I have started making my own bullets and feel the same way that I did when I planted my first 100 acres
of corn.
I respect all people that know more than me and I know that some day I will be helping the new guy.
I don't know it all but I am learning

[theperfessor]

Hickory -

The last sentence in your post (#27) says it all. Those words should be posted on everybody's refrigerator.

My wife worked for a supervisor who stated that he had a BS from a prestigious university in Indiana (won't name it) and that he was "set for life". He was also one of the biggest dumb***es I've ever met.

[Hickory]

Thanks for the kind words Perfessor.
I have also noticed that the more I learn,
The more I realize the things I don't know.

[wallenba]

Judging by a lot of the questions that get asked, I sometimes think that a lot of the new people are introduced to the hobby by merchants that sell equipment, but offer no education.
When most of us here learned, there was no internet to lean on for information and we learned from reading everything we could get our hands on. We made plenty of mistakes along the way if my experiences are typical. I think that two books should be a must read for all beginners; Richard Lee's Modern reloading and Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook. We have become an instant gratification society, and sadly reading books I think has become 'passe'.

[Echo]

I have also noticed that the more I learn,
The more I realize the thing I don't know.

When I was in front of college and university classes, I tried HARD to point out that additional education doesn't give one better answers, it gives one better questions.

And God Help the dude from Purdue (I assume) - in this dynamic world NO ONE has it set for life.

[theperfessor]

Echo, Hickory -

Gotta agree with all you've said.

By the way, it wasn't Purdue, but it doesn't really matter, for the reasons you both mention.

Hey AZStew, if this professoring thing doesn't work out for me, maybe I can work for you? (LOL)

[jimkim]

No offense to the Engineers here, but when I was working in R&D things got done a lot quicker if they just told us what they needed and left us alone. When we got through, they could pick up the parts, and get the specs from them. Keep in mind this WAS NOT a bridge or anything like that, it was only light fixtures, but what normally took three weeks could be done in two days. Why is it when they are working on a new product, none of them communicate with each other? Is that common? Here's a hint...if the company has already had the die made for the endplate, take those dimensions into consideration when your designing the damned channel! :killingpc


Sorry I got off track, and I completely agree with Gray Wolf. Just in case you read what I posted on another forum(before I cleaned it up) Gray Wolf I apologize for venting on that newbie the other day. I still don't know why the only reading he can do is off a CRT.

[archmaker]

I have seen this to, and the one thing that surprises me is the amount of information the younger generation is provided with, but yet they do not see the need to retain it.

Think about this, there are kids graduating from High School who do not know what it is like to NOT be connected (Internet and cell phone).

When I started working you had a problem with your vehicle out in the boonies, you A) either fixed it with whatever you could find (usually bailing wire and duct tape). B) you started walking, knowing pretty well where you were and where you needed to go.

Today, they see no need to remember much of anything except how to use the keyboard (notice I did not say computer), cell phone, or GPS.

There are times that I am working with a client and they will not allow us to have Internet access and the cell phone does not always work. Also it looks pretty damaging for a computer security consultant (I "hack" into other people networks to show the weaknesses) who has to phone home, just to start an engagement. Some of the younger people that i work with are totally lost, can't even start to figure out what they need to do.

This is what concerns me the most, that there is a whole generation that cannot problem solve without the crutch of technology.

[montana_charlie]

I just clipped this from a thread in a different section. How many times do you see a question prefaced with a statement similar to...

"So I know this has been brought up many times but I am new to this game and bad at research."

This person has just admitted that he will not attempt to help himself, so we can expect to have to hold his hand for as long as he stays with us.
By calling himself "stupid" and admitting he is without talent to do research, he feels he has 'paid the price' for getting all the free (effortless) advice he ever will need.

I don't care what his question is. With that for a preamble, I have no interest in providing a 'welfare check' that contains the answer.

CM

[Crash_Corrigan]

As a kid growing up in the 50's I haunted the Library and read everything I could lay my hands on. Early on I became fasinated with guns and shooting them. Luckily my Dad encouraged me and allowed me access to his .22 Savage, 12 Gau Baker and later on his .22 Colt Woodsman.

Spending a lot of time out of the city and upstate where I could hone my shooting skills was really nice. Later (at 21) I became a NYC Police Officer and enjoyed a 20 year career and earned a lovely pension when I retired at age 41 as a Lieutenant. I stopped shooting for fun at about age 18 as girls suddenly became more important.

In 1990 or so I began to shoot for fun again. My employer a small village Police Department gave me as much ammo as I would ask for to sharpen my shooting skills. I took full advantage of it and a few years later I started to reload my own ammo.

However before I reloaded my first round I devoured the ABC's of Reloading and the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. I then scrounged up hundreds of lbs of WW's so I would not have to buy boolits. Only when I had accumulated 8 5 gallon buckets of wheel weights and had read those two books over and over again did I buy my first two Lee 6 banger molds (without handles) along with about a thousands dollars worth of dies, presses and other necessities.

I did have a computer but was unaware of any websites devoted to cast boolits so I ventured into the realm of reloading and casting at the same time without any guidance at all. I had selected a Lee Loadmaster Press as my main press with a Lee Challenger as a back up. Had I chained a millstone around my neck and then gone swimming I would have been better off. Needless to say I took apart that press many times and spent many evenings cursing Richard Lee for making such a piece of %$^%$. The problem was the priming operation. It had to be perfectly adjusted and cleaned regularly. I had many a round go pop instead of bang I was used to pounding out boolits from the barrel of my revolver after having had a primer issue and continued the progressive loading without starting all over again. No powder in the case etc. I endured that press for about two years and one day I went to a gun show.

On that day I made a breakthrough in my education. First I found a mold, very similiar to my Lee 148 GR TLSWC that had handles on it. I never knew that they hand handles. I quickly bought another Lee mold with the handles and this changed my boolit casting methods and made it less painless:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=41217

Then on another table there was a Dillon 550B in operation with all the bells and whistles. Wow. I put aside the Lee Loadmaster and went to the single stage Challenger and made some decent and reliable rounds. Shortly thereafter a friend of mine got into prospecting with a metal detector and wanted to dispose of his Dillon 550B. An agreeement was made that I would make his rounds for cost and he would give me all his reloading stuff.

More than 10 years later I am still making rounds for him and that Dillon is still going strong. I disposed of the Loadmaster and I recently bought a Dillon Square Deal Press from one of our member. I wished I had bought that Square Deal instead of the Loadmaster many years ago. Simple yet very efficient and easy to use and dependable as ivory soap. The priming system is very good whereas the one on the Dillon 550 B is less so.

I must confess that I have learned more about reloading and casting boolits in the last few years on this forum than I had learned on my own during the previous 10 years. Recently I was herded into the Holy Black by another forum member and before I went out and spent 3 grand on the guns and such I did a lot of research on the Holy Black and BPCR. I bought and read a half dozen books on the sports and haunted the BPCR website to learn what I could before I threw my hat across the fence.

Now I am enjoying the casting and reloading practice more than ever as the cost for a loaded round of 50-90 is above $5 per round if I were foolish enuf to buy them from the factory. However the costs are kinda hefty with brass costing more than a buck a round. It also uses a lot of lead with only about 11 boolits a pound when casting 695 gr boolits.

There is much joy in the sport of using iron sights at ridiculous distances where the boolits follow a rainbow shaped arc to the target. It is truly rewarding to be able to hit a target at 600 yds and have the boolits arc 25 feet above the ground and still achieve some measure of accuracy at the terminal end.

Now I am looking forwards to an actual hunt where I may have an opportunity to shoot a Buffalo and then butcher and eat the meat. We are talking here about a 900 plus lbs animal. I am going to have to buy a freezer since this member also has fed me some Buffalo meat and I like it.

Along the way in my shooting and reloading/casting education I have freely helped others into the sport and I have spent many hours on the range with new shooters and people who have never shot a gun to enjoy the sport. I do not however reload ammo for others (one exception) and I encourage them to load for themselves and I have donated equipment and dies and freely loan out such necessities to get them started on this journey.

I get a big kick out of shooting ammo that I have made from the boolit to assembling the round and along the way I have made many friends and new shooters to continue this wonderful sport.

Today the internet is an important part of my day's activities only because it is so easy to access and I agree with the orginal poster on this thread that newbies tend to want to have everything spoon fed to them and do not have the adventuresome spirit that I and most forum members had when we first started.

Let's continue to have patience and teach them the basics but we also must encourage them to find out for themselves the readily available information needed to thrive in this sport. Let us not give them the fish, rather let us teach them how to fish on their own.

[theperfessor]

JImKim-

No offense taken here. Let me share a short story.

When I was a machinist in heavy industry, one of the jobs I did was run a horizontal boring machine to line bore holes in the lugs (ears) of dragline buckets. The drag chains were attached to the bucket at this location by U-shaped shackles and pins. Some bright engineer (or group of them) with absolutely NO concept of what it took to machine these holes decided to put a rock guard or cheekpiece (essentially a second set of ears) on the outside. Trouble is, these didn't have a hole in them, couldn't have a hole put in them, and were totally in the way. There was absolutely no way to get to the inner lugs to bore a hole.

After pointing out the problem to the Supervisor, he walked over to an "old guy", our repair welder, and had a quiet chat. Within a few minutes the outer ears were neatly cut off and saved, and I did my thing. The welder had beveled and ground the ears while I was working and as soon as the part hit the floor our welder was welding the ears back on. Problem solved.

Three weeks later a memo came back from the engineering department recommending that the lugs should be cut off for machining and then reattached by welding. By then the part had been finished, shipped, assembled, and had been digging dirt for 2 weeks.

I am one, and I'll still say it - some engineers ARE dumb***es.

[Tazman1602]

JImKim-

I am one, and I'll still say it - some engineers ARE dumb***es.

Yes Perfessor I also. I'm willing to bet, from reading your posts, that before you became an Engineer, that you had a few years of practical experience dealing with "stuff". I was an Auto Mechanic for a lot of years before I went back to school for electrical/Network Engineering and that practical experience made me a MUCH better Engineer than any of the youngsters who had no practical application experience.

If an Engineer designs something, then I am of the opinion he/she should have to WORK with that design for a month or so.

It also burned my buttocks with a three foot flame when some young up and coming PHD (Piled higher and deeper) Engineer claimed credit for something I'd told him in passing.

Made me want to revert to my mechanic ways and bean him in the head with a box end wrench..........

Art

[Tazman1602]

Thanks for the kind words Perfessor.
I have also noticed that the more I learn,
The more I realize the things I don't know.

THAT SIR, is the result of many years of experience on your part. Do those count anymore??? LOL.

I wish I was still 18. I had all the answers then. Now I have only a lot of questions..........

Art

[Cactus Farmer]

I wish I was still 18. I had all the answers then. Now I have only a lot of questions..........

Art

I have a 17 yo stepson who DOES know everything. I just wish I could be the mouse in his pocket when the real world slaps him silly............if I just get to hear about it I might have to change my drawers from laughing so hard....
Of course an apology for the he11 he's put his Mom and me thru will not be very likely either......

[Finster101]

I have a 17 yo stepson who DOES know everything. I just wish I could be the mouse in his pocket when the real world slaps him silly............if I just get to hear about it I might have to change my drawers from laughing so hard....
Of course an apology for the he11 he's put his Mom and me thru will not be very likely either......



Been there, done that! In my case it was a step daughter.

[AZ-Stew]

If an Engineer designs something, then I am of the opinion he/she should have to WORK with that design for a month or so.

I'll go you a step better. Between an aspiring engineer's Senior year in high school and his Freshman year of college, he should work in the document control group of a manufacturing business. Between his Freshman and Sophomore years he should work as a drafter. Between his Sophomore and Junior years ha should work in the company's assembly area. Between his Junior and Senior years he should work in the company's machine shop. Then, when he graduates, I'd be happy to call him by the title on his diploma.


It also burned my buttocks with a three foot flame when some young up and coming PHD (Piled higher and deeper) Engineer claimed credit for something I'd told him in passing.

PhD= (not always, but I've seen my share) Pizza Hut Delivery and Pathetic, Hopeless, Dope, in addition to Piled Higher and Deeper. I've seen Electrical PhDs that could design any circuit you can imagine at the schematic level, but have no idea how to arrange the circuit board and chassis to mount the physical components. I've seen ME PhDs who had no concept of tolerances. They wanted me to make drawings that would result in physical components that had EXACTLY the dimensions they requested. They had no concept of the fact that the machinist, his machinery, nor the people who would measure and verify the dimensions nor their tools were perfect. Zero tolerance doesn't exist, but they demand it because there computer analysis says it will work.

My take on this is that lawyers have destroyed our breeding grounds for engineers. The construction and science toys we played with in the 50s and 60s don't exist any more. They've been lawyered out of existence. Erector sets and (my favorite) the Girder And Panel building sets have small parts that can be ingested. Chemistry sets have stuff that's not good to swallow. My older brother's Erector Set had a motor that ran on 120V and an open gear box. The learning experience from that was: DON'T STICK YOUR FINGERS IN THE GEAR BOX!! That sucker would raise some NASTY blood blisters. But I learned. Today's kids never get the opportunity. We need to replace lawyers with parental responsibility. I'm sure I'll get crucified for that statement because to take responsibility is "too hard". Tough.

Regards,

Stew

[462]

A large part of my seemingly negative and jaded view of today's youth is based on what is see in the area in which I live

The county has a drop-out rate that is very near 25 percent. Federal and state mandated test scores are among the lowest in the state, which is ranked 49th in the country. Cashiers have to look at the register in order to determine how much change is due a customer. At that, they still have a difficult time figuring out which coins add up to 39-cents.

Gangsters, who wear heavy parkas and hooded sweatshirts with the hood up, even in the middle of Summer, with their pants hanging off the middle of their butts, are in all the towns and cities. In a not-too-distant city there were 29 gang-related murders, last year.

About one-quarter of the population refuses to learn English and assimilate into American culture.

Daily, I witness the consequences, results, and effects of liberalism run amok.

All that in an area which has some of the most expensive real estate in the country.

[buck1]

Sometimes we dont know how much we dont know......
Q...
Whats the best load for my 9006 remchester mag?

A....
Theres no easy answer to your question.
There are lots of things to concider to answer that question. May I recomend this book so that you may gain a better understanding of the process? Our sport is in fact a bit of art form that is rewarding beyond words, so I encourage you to hold the cource and do a lot of reading to get the basics down. Then return with questions of details and we will be more than happy to help. Welcome to our sport!

We dont have to be RUDE about it. We most likely dont know the details of how this person came to ask us for help , or what they may have thought before asking the question. Its not what you put in the pot, but how you stir it....Buck

[redneck1]

i'd like to chime in here a bit .. as a asker of stoopid questions ive kinda learned that sometimes just doing research isnt enough .. ways of doing things change maybe someone finds a newer better way .. sometimes you just need to ask to see if you get the same answer that you think youve learned or if your source is reliable and not just talking out of the mouth they sit on ... i might be a lil bit dumb but at least i know it anyway thats my 2 cents

[Lee]

I've seen this coming over the last 40 years. An "engineer" nowadays knows little about how things work, just about how the books say they should .
Add to that the so-called "engineers" who come out of the LasVages School of Engineering--What do you want that paper to say?? Suite 204/Sands/Las Vegas U" and you have the problems.
You would be amazed at the blank stares I get when I ask these so called "engineers" if they ever heard of the little black book called "Design of Experiments"
You can bet that the NASA management teams who blew up 2 space shuttles didn't read that one.
AZ - Stew is so wierd!! I can't believe that he would have the audacity to suggest something so common sense as what he is proposing.
And the only problem with all this is that there exists no way to disenfranchise anyof these "two-bit-swingin-dik-self-proclaimed-egspurt-engineers from their positions.
P.S. Stew, how did you know I caught my fingers in the Gilbert gearbox in 1959???:razz:

[KYCaster]

The county has a drop-out rate that is very near 25 percent. Federal and state mandated test scores are among the lowest in the state, which is ranked 49th in the country. Cashiers have to look at the register in order to determine how much change is due a customer. At that, they still have a difficult time figuring out which coins add up to 39-cents.


WHOA!!! I never thought I'd be able to use the phrase "THANK GOD FOR CALIFORNIA". Its usually AR, MS, WV and KY vieing for bottom feeder status. Nice to know the Left Coast is finally catching up. When y'all start marrying your first cousins you might just end up with a decent place to live.

When I go through a check-out I usually have a pretty good idea of what the total will be before they start scanning items, and when the total shows up on the register and I give them the cash, I know what the change should be before they start pulling bills from the drawer. If the change is wrong I'll count it back to them the way I was taught, starting with the purchase price then adding pennies, nickels, dimes, quarters and bills till I reach the ammount I gave. In all the years I've been doing that there have been very few cashiers who understood what I did.(If they knew how to do it they generally got it right in the first place.) I've only had one youngster ask me how I did that so fast and want to see it again. I like to think she probably owns the store by now.

It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to take over when we're gone.

Jerry

[jimkim]

I'm with Perfessor. I work for a VERY high tech company as a mechanical designer. One of my jobs there is to train degreed engineers to read mechanical drawings (something they DON"T teach in engineering school, but don't get me started) and how to read and apply an American Society Of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) standard called Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing.

Stew

When I was in college EEG 102(Engineering Design and Graphics) was required. I can't believe this. Don't mean to get you started, I'm just shocked. I was thinking of going back to school now that I have an empty nest.

[462]

Yep, when it comes to education Mississippi is ready to eat California's lunch. Teachers can't be fired for poor performance, unions use strong-arm tactics come election time, and only abut 60-cents of each education dollar actually makes it to the schools, with the rest going to bureaucrats.

I can't get out of here soon enough.

[Bass Ackward]

Well, we all appear to have concerns that appear to go beyond this board's subject material if we would just admit it. And I do believe that is a lot of the reason for various positions toward this board.

Let me see if I understand what most of you are saying.

You say you are going hunting this year with your new wiz bang ............ (fill in the blank) But someone tells you that they feel that you should put that technology aside and learn how to use a spear because ..... that was how it was done for centuries and you should have to learn the basics first. That about it? I guess you are right cause guns, bows or components could be legislated out of existence and where would we be?

So asking questions is not the desired method of learning. I agree. But I have tossed my slide rule in preference to a calculator so who am I to complain. Notice "I" didn't mention a computer.

The anger here should be directed at all those folks that voted democrat all those years for creating a system designed to produce more democrat voters. THERE is your education / attitude problem.

[bigdog454]

OK guys! Now that everyone has got the bashing of engineers etc off their chest, let me ask you this. Are you willing to mentor a newbi that comes to this board looking for advice, or are we gonna just keep bi**hing about all of the problems. I say let's use our knowledge and experience to do what we can to salve problems, and help the younger generation.

[BeeMan]

I read this thread over the weekend and promptly decided to log off. Didn't need the aggravation of coming to my hobby refuge on the web and finding another pile-on rather than sharing of ideas that drew me here in the first place. However, it goes against who I am to not address some of this.

Whether we are talking about engineering or casting lead alloys, experience has to start some where. Attitude and willingness to work are the keys to gaining positive experience, same as with most of the rest of life.

As for negative experience, melting metal and burning powder can make for painful lessons. Same if that bridge fails, or the repair bill is ridiculous due to not considering service during design.

Education is much more than classes in school. An effective education will introduce and build the foundation for critical thinking, among quite a few other things.

My present job is managing an engineering group that solves a variety of design, process, quality or supply chain issues with products now in production. Any given day may range from challenging to mundane in terms of engineering problems. However, my larger objective is to put my group out of business.

How? By mentoring my group as well as receptive members of the design group responsible for new product development. Those who are willing to learn and work will leapfrog me. Those who won't, well, the economic downturn has facilitated trimming the ranks.

If someone truly doesn't know, is willing to apply some effort of their own, and will listen, I'll gladly help them along. I expect that they will have something to teach me before long.

BeeMan

[lwknight]

Before the thread drifted, it was just a discussion about people being too lazy to even try doing some research. I don't think that anyone would hold back on trying to help where a noob had done some research and found a couple topics too confusing or just wants something cleared up. You can tell whether they are just too lazy to do something for themselves or just need clarification. And often times a question pops up that has not been commonly asked and the info is just not readily available.

[gray wolf]

Man what a thread drift, How the heck did this thread get so screwed up?.
If you want to start a new one go a head.
This whole thing is about people just asking questions (HERE), and not wanting to do the work to find out a little before they ask us to do the dam work for them.
AS IT WAS SAID EARLY-ER. ??I NEED A LOAD FOR MY 308.??
let them do a little work and come back with a question, wanting an answer
NOT A DAM HANDOUT. How do you answer that kind of a question anyway?
But they keep asking, my point is to firmly direct folks to
#1 the info is available--go look here.
#2 can you show you have done a little work? in helping yourself.
#3 Are you even aware that you can help yourself ?
It wasn't about what your job is, --yes that was interesting and in some cases it even was relevant. IMHO It is this kind of drifting answers that make things go no place, and sorry I even brought it up.
I for one will not answer any more questions that start with (can you give me)
Flame me if you want, but that's my choice. I am tired of it.
Anyone that knows me at all will tell you I am the first one to help anyone.
The old shirt off my back if you please. But I just can't condone laziness or please put the spoon in my mouth.
I will be happy to lead anyone to the water but I will not fill the glass and put it in your mouth. It teaches you nothing but the fact that someone else is willing to do it for you.
If someone ask
" whats the best load for my 270 Win."
and you think --55 grains of H4831 with a 130 grain bullet is the answer, Well than have at it.
But you know darn well that is not the answer. So you go on and on with all the other questions to them, and in short they have sucked you into doing the work,--and you have enabled them a little further down the road of lazy-ness.
But what will you do when that same person ask you: what shoe goes on what foot.
Think it can't happen?

[223tenx]

How many times do you read where somebody broke the sprue handle on a Lee 6 C mold, then you look at the number of posts and it's usually less than 5 or 10? How many of you read the instructions when you get something new? Unless Lee has changed the instructions that come with the mold, it's right there in black and white about using a screwdriver blade to increase leverage instead of just pulling harder. Most of my friends kid me about reading instructions first, but I do. Usually saves a lot of heartache.

[shootinxd]

I guess some of you are better at putting your thoughts into questions-SIR![smilie=s:

[Thumbcocker]

I bet the lawyers were glad that someone else was taking a turn in the barrel. :twisted: