Total Noob From Central Texas Has Questions

[TORCHrider]

Hey Y'all! Dave from Central Texas here. Been reloading for 30 years and have finally decided to take it to the next level and cast those purty little lead pills for my reloading needs. Things is, the more I read, the more questions I have and the more $$ I seem to need to spend. I hope y'all don't mind me asking vthe following questions.

1. I am still very confused by fluxing. I plan to melt wheelweights on a propane burner and cast iron pot in the yard to make ingots for the furnace. I think I understand the entire process except for the fluxing/cleaning of the lead. Some books say not to flux, some say to flux your heart out. I was going to remove the wheelweight clips, zink weights, cigarrete butts, etc. from the surface and then throw in some crayons, stir/scrape well and then skim off any dirt/dross without removing alloy. Is this correct?

2. How do I take my ladle and get lead from the pot to the ingots without getting a whole bunch of the flux along with it?

3. When I put clean ingots in the furnace, do I need to flux again? Why?

4. Do bullets need to be sized/lubed? Some books say beginners dont need to worry about a lubricator/sizer, but every cast bullet I have used has been sized and had lube applied.

5. What are the minimums to turning out a decent supply of cast bullets? When I start to look at the prices of furnaces, moulds, lubicators and sizers and misc. equipment, I could easily spend $1000 getting setup. This kinda goes against the whole premise of casting to save $$.

Thanks Y'all and thanks for putting up with yet another noob! [smilie=s:

[dubber123]

Fluxing at smelting time will keep the "ingredients" mixed well, Ie. the lead, tin, and antimony in wheelweights. All the garbage, stickers, steel clips, Zinc wieghts, etc, will float to the top, Skim these off and discard. Once well fluxed, you will have a pot of nice shiny molten alloy. You ladle these into your ingot moulds. Make sure everything is warmed up. Don't stick a cold ladle into hot lead, and don't pour hot lead into cold ingot moulds, bad stuff can happen, ask me how I know..

I reflux lightly when casting, as you wil never get all the garbage out on the first trip, just 99% of it.

Boolits need to be lubed. If they need to be sized is determined by their as-cast size. If you need .430", and your mould casts right at that, then no sizing needed. If it casts at .434", yes, they need to be sized. A push through sizer is the cheapest way of sizing, around $20. A lubrisizer is nice, but you can get by without it.

If you ladle cast off a heat source, use a $20 Lee mould, a $20 Lee sizer, you can be making boolits for $50 in a setup. Cost/convenience goes from there. Have fun.

[kbstenberg]

Torchrider welcome to the brotherhood of casters. Most questions can be answered some where in the stickies. But don't be afraid to ask anything. Because whatever is troubling you others have had the same problems in the past. An Meany fixes can be found here.
Your questions
1 you were totally correct. You can use anything for flux candles, sawdust, used motor oil
2 the flux material is taken away with all the impurities. So all you have left on the surface is the silvery lead. Remember to keep the temperature down so as not to mealt any of the zink if present.
3 for the same reason as before. To eliminate foreign material.
4 If for a pistol your bullet is molded to the correct size for your cylinder an barrel. No you don't HAVE to size. In rifle bullets are more critical so usually yes. Lube is an all the time thing. Or else your barrel will fill with lead.
5 You will not save money by casting. What you will do is shoot more but spend less for what you shoot. Buying everything new at entry level about 500. But it depends on what you want an for what.

[David2011]

Welcome!

I can't add much. Dubber and KB pretty well said it all. Don't worry about oil and grease on your wheelweights. The petroleum products become flux. It's smoky but you will probably want to smelt outdoors anyway. You're dead on with the propane cooker and cast iron pot. I got a Dutch oven for about $10 at Harbor Freight, probably on sale. If you run at about 650 degrees by the thermometer you won't accidentally contaminate your metal with zinc. It melts at over 700. Dress like you're handling molten metal. Long pants outside leather boots, a long sleeve heavy 100% cotton shirt, welders' gloves, a face shield and a hat are a good start. Harbor Freight has excellent leather welding gloves at a good price.

David

[Wayne Smith]

Good answers so far. Flux needs to have carbon in it so you can't use just anything. You don't want water in it, so don't use a green stick!

Casting doesn't have to be expensive. I have, for ten years, used an old Coleman 2 burner stove and old stainless kitchen 1qt pots. We are talking stuff you can get at a garage sale. A ladle is necessary and a thermometer is very handy. I did this for two reasons, 1. I'm casting some big boolits, everything I've read says this is easier with a ladle. 2. I want to spend my limited funds on molds. Bullshop's sprue lube is essential to maintain your molds.

If you stay here you will be spending lots of money on group buy molds, BAbore's list of molds from previous group buys, and recommendations from threads about a caliber you have or want. Discipline is necessary, or run away now!

You won't save money in an absolute sense but you will vastly expand your opportunities.

[TORCHrider]

Thanks Guys. Got the cast iron pot, welding gloves and apron at Harbor Freight. Think I found a decent backyard propane burner for around $40 too at Amazon with free shipping. Got a long handled antique ladle for filling ingots. Now on the hunt for some ingot moulds. Next will be a furnace, moulds, etc.

[goste]

Welcome TORCHrider....

If you don't mind my asking, what part of CenTex?

[DLCTEX]

Welcome from the Top 'O Texas! I flux by stirring with a dry stick. Generally I use scraps from woodworking in my shop, but the paint stirrers from the paint store work well. I stir very well and skim off the dross when smelting, then when melting ingots I let the lead come up to full temp and stir with the stick, not as much as when smelting, then skim again. If you have lead waiting for a long while, it may be necessary to flux the oxides back in, don't want to loose any tin. If you bottom pour mostly the bad stuff will float on top, but if you ladle pour you will need to keep the dross cleaned off better. I generally bottom pour myself and use my Lee 10 pound pot more than my older Lyman 20 pounder.
I use a stainless serving spoon for skimming and made ingot moulds from 1 1/2" X 8"angle iron, 4 pcs. edge welded to form V troughs and the ends capped with more angle and turning a flange out for handles.

[TORCHrider]

Welcome TORCHrider....

If you don't mind my asking, what part of CenTex?

Hi Goste. Don't mind at all. I am in Georgetown, about 35 miles north of Austin. I work in Round Rock at a certain high tech company you may have heard of. I wish I could say I worked for Lyman or Hornady or Shooting Star or Sierra or...:violin:

[wmitty]

Welcome aboard!

Don't make a big deal about ingot molds; turn your D.P. can over and pour the bottom cavity full. This will work fine till you run across a cornbread mold at a garage sale. You can flux with dry leaves just fine (dry leaves). A good ladle is probably worth spending a few bucks on. I still have the Lyman I bought new in '68. I also still have the lead pot I bought at the same time, but I have gone to using a cast iron skillet that I like better (more volume). I cast on the gas stove in the kitchen when Precious is gone. Little splatters are easy to wipe up and larger ones will come off with some judiciously applied pliers. Molds are where your money should be directed (excepting safety gear). A small stick or mallet for tapping the mold handles and a Lee push thru die for sizing if needed. Lube with the Lee alox in a JIF peanut butter lid 15 boolets at a time and stand 'em on a piece of wax paper to dry. Might need to cut the alox with mineral spirits 10/1 or so.

Cheap and easy.... until you decide a lubrisizer would be faster and a six cavity would be quicker and you need another mold for the Marlin RC in .32 Spcl you found and so on.

D.P. = Dr. Pepper (National drink of the Republic)

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Welcome to the forum. Looks like the others have answered you questions. If you want hands on experience before you invest a lot of money PM me, we might be close, then again TX is a BIG state.

[lylejb]

Welcome to the forum.

You don't have to buy ingot molds. Many people use an old muffin pan, I do. It works just fine. Just make sure to get the steel pans, not aluminium.

Ingots are just an intermediate point, it doesn't matter one bit if the're round or square, just as long as they fit in your pot!!!

[lwknight]

You do not have to flux when smelting. There is enough oils and junk all overything to do the fluxing. Problem is that by the time you get a good liquid melt , most of it has burned off.
You will have clips and other junk floating on top with perfectly good lead alloy stuck onto it.

At this point a dry stick will not help you much. You can toss a bit of some kind of wax or tallow in and almost immediately after stirring around for a bit, the clips and what not will release all or most of the alloy attached to it. Now you can skim off the dust and clips without tossing out a lot of good alloy.

When remelting the ingots into the furnace, you will fo fine with the dry stick or tallow or whatever you have available. Some folks rarelly ever flux the ingots in the furnace. As for myself, I usually flux at intervals of when I notice a good bit of dross in my pot. It puts everything back together instead of skimming of the good stuff thinking that it is crud.

The need for sizing depends on the mold and on the gun. In nearly all cases you need to lube the boolits with something. Since I started using Lee Liquid Alox , my lube/sizer just sits all lonely on the bench begging for attention.

[cbrick]

TORCHrider,

You don't need to spend a fortune to get started. For about $80.00 you get everything in the picture, all you need to add is the mould of your choice and maybe a Lee push through sizer (comes with a bottle of LLA). That's enough equipment to get you shooting your own boolits. Be warned . . . once that first boolit drops from the mould your hooked, there is no turning back.

http://www.lasc.us/SHOT2010_files/image013.jpg

The only additional thing you'll need is info which is readily available right here FREE.

Welcome to the forum.

Rick

[Recluse]

1. I am still very confused by fluxing. Some books say not to flux, some say to flux your heart out. I was going to remove the wheelweight clips, zink weights, cigarrete butts, etc. from the surface and then throw in some crayons, stir/scrape well and then skim off any dirt/dross without removing alloy. Is this correct?

First off, welcome to the world of the Silver Stream from a fellow Texican.

Fluxing? I flux the living hell out of my scrap lead when smelting. Probably overdo it a bit, but I want clean ingots going in my furnace. Besides, fluxing during smelting (outdoors) is a lot simpler process for me than fluxing inside the shop.

As others have pointed out, the oil and grease and other gunk on wheel weights and scrap lead act as a first flux. Once that is burned off, I throw on a handful of sawdust and stir that around in the melt, then skim it off. Last act of fluxing is to drop a small chunk of a candle in. Very small chunk. It will *poof* and catch fire, which is part of the mystical ritual associated with casting and smelting.

I stir the flaming flux mix with a wooden stick, which in turn acts like a torch. I raise the flaming torch to the Galena Gods and give solemn and reverent thanks, then return the torch stick back into stirring the molten alloy.

Knock on wood, this ritual has always given me very good alloy to pour into my ingot molds. I recommend this pagan ritual highly.


2. How do I take my ladle and get lead from the pot to the ingots without getting a whole bunch of the flux along with it?

Go to some camping store or someplace where you can get a large ladle type of stainless steel spoon, and a slotted spoon. I use the slotted spoon to skim the WW clips out of the alloy, leaving the precious metal behind.

I use the large ladle spoon to skim off the flux, and once the alloy is pure and I've raised my flaming torch to the Galena Gods, I then place one last pea-sized chunk of candle in the alloy, *poof* it catches fire and I use the spoon-ladle to stir, then raise the flaming spoon to the Gods.

The ladle is now purified and thus worthy to pour molten alloy into my ingot molds.


3. When I put clean ingots in the furnace, do I need to flux again? Why?

Provided you've properly pleased the Galena Gods, you will have clean ingots which will melt cleanly in your furnace. I rarely flux the alloy in my furnace. If for some reason I feel the need to, I'll drop some reject boolits that have already been lubed into the furnace. They'll do the job. Likewise, a small pea-sized bit of wax will suffice as well.

But that's the reason I flux so thoroughly during the sacrifice of the scrap lead--so my ingots will be clean and not need fluxing during the reincarnation into boolits.


4. Do bullets need to be sized/lubed? Some books say beginners dont need to worry about a lubricator/sizer, but every cast bullet I have used has been sized and had lube applied.

If you've been reloading for thirty or more years like me, then I'd bet one of the things you've learned along the way is how consistency equals predictability and accuracy.

To that end, I size each and every boolit I cast. Some need it, some don't--but by sizing each one, I know they are all the same diameter. That eliminates one variable (out of many possibilities) for accuracy and consistency purposes.

Many here "load as cast" and it works fine for them. But with Lee push-through sizers being $15 bucks, it's a very inexpensive way to ensure consistency in size and roundness.


5. What are the minimums to turning out a decent supply of cast bullets? When I start to look at the prices of furnaces, moulds, lubicators and sizers and misc. equipment, I could easily spend $1000 getting setup. This kinda goes against the whole premise of casting to save $$.

Thanks Y'all and thanks for putting up with yet another noob! [smilie=s:

You can literally spend as little as you want or as much as you want. I started out with a Lee pot, Lee mold, Lee push through sizer (which came with LLA lube) and some smelting stuff I picked up at garage sales and the Dollar Store.

The Dollar Store is a friend of the Boolit Caster.

I think my first total outlay in expense was around $125. From that, I smelt and cast somewhere around 3000 .38 Special boolits. Had I bought those boolits commercially, they would've cost me more than what I spent on equipment.

So, my first foray into casting paid for itself almost instantly. I've never looked back.

Don't worry about the questions. Everyone here started at the same place.

:coffee:

[montana_charlie]

when smelting.
You will have clips and other junk floating on top with perfectly good lead alloy stuck onto it.
At this point a dry stick will not help you much.
You can toss a bit of some kind of wax or tallow in and almost immediately after stirring around for a bit, the clips and what not will release all or most of the alloy attached to it.


When remelting the ingots into the furnace, you will fo fine with the dry stick or tallow or whatever you have available. Some folks rarelly ever flux the ingots in the furnace. As for myself, I usually flux at intervals of when I notice a good bit of dross in my pot. It puts everything back together instead of skimming of the good stuff thinking that it is crud.

In those two paragraphs, lwknight highlights the fact that there are actually two actions that casters perform...and both get called 'fluxing'.

The initial cleaning of scrap needs fluxing, and I have not tried many different ways. But, some form of wax does it well.
The goal here is to help the various metals mix well, and to remove all of the 'contaminates' that go into the pot along with the scrap metal.

When casting, the (previously) cleaned metal will oxidize at a predictable rate.
The 'fluxing' done during this stage is to 'reduce' those oxides (back into a metallic state) in order to recover desirable components...not remove contaminates.

For this, the wooden stick is my preferred method.

CM

[awaveritt]

TORCHrider,
Welcome to the forum! I live in Austin. PM me if you ever want to get together. I've only been casting for about 4-5 months and have nothing more to add to all the experts thus far. Just wanted to welcome you aboard. These guys here really know their stuff and have helped me immensely.

[Tiger6.5x55]

I use the large ladle spoon to skim off the flux, and once the alloy is pure and I've raised my flaming torch to the Galena Gods, I then place one last pea-sized chunk of candle in the alloy, *poof* it catches fire and I use the spoon-ladle to stir, then raise the flaming spoon to the Gods.

The ladle is now purified and thus worthy to pour molten alloy into my ingot molds.
:coffee:

I love it!!!! Never underestimate what the casting gods can provide.;););)

[Gunfixer]

Welcome from just west of you. All posted above is good info, as this board is the best at. If the candle factory is still open over there , go see if you can get some end of run or mis color leftovers on the cheap. When the one in Marble Falls closed I got a bunch of good stuff for fluxing smelt.
I have found that if I put a piece about the size of your thumb in the smelt, right when it catches fire stir like heck and scoop clips with a slotted spoon. Leaves very little lead on the clips saving a remelt.

[Gunfixer]

Fooey, hit the wrong button and posted before I was done , then got kicked off.
To finish, My shop is in Kingsland, my store in Johnson City.
And for anyone out there how do I get a picture to an avatar. all Ive read and tried has been unsucessful (should start a different thread, pm me info so no hijack)

[docone31]

Welcome!
Most times I rarely flux. Lead and the alloys do not seem to need it that much.
When I melt WW alloy, the rubber, random oils, etc, in other words the smoke makers, all seem to do the job for me.
As far as passing on flux, I wouldn't worry about it. You will see.
I also use Kitty Litter on top of my melt when I cast. The dross is absorbed, collects, and falls back in to the mix.
Welcome, have fun, and only melt DRY alloy!
No need to welcome the Tinsel Fairy.

[mcdonl]

No need to welcome the Tinsel Fairy.

She sounds "nice"?

[qajaq59]

Lee products are cheap and I wouldn't expect them to last forever, but I have to say, for me they have worked well. And they'll get you going in the hobby without mortgaging the house. I have their 20# bottom pour pot that seems to work fine. It drips once in a while and I clean it with a paper clip and then it's ok. And I bought one of their molds in .30 cal. on the advice of a friend to see how they were. I soaked it overnight in denatured alcohol when it arrived. Then I smoked it, and began casting. By the 6 cast the bullets were filled out and all weighed the same. So it's good as well. I bought another one in .50 cal, did the same cleaning when it got here, and it works fine too.
So here it is. Try the Lee products. They do seem to work regardless of the fact that they are cheap. They may not be Rolls Royces, but the deer will never know.

[TORCHrider]

Fooey, hit the wrong button and posted before I was done , then got kicked off.
To finish, My shop is in Kingsland, my store in Johnson City.
And for anyone out there how do I get a picture to an avatar. all Ive read and tried has been unsucessful (should start a different thread, pm me info so no hijack)


Gunfixer, what kind of store/shop do you have?