I want a 32-36 "target" rifle

[218bee]

Hey gents first time in this section. I feel the need to get myself a small caliber front stuffing rifle. I have no experience with muzzleloading rifles but have shot some cap n ball revolvers and have been loading black powder cartridges for a while now. I just want this for punching paper to test the rifle and my own skill. I guess the majority would be 50-100yds but would like to move to 200yds if I could. Looking for suggestions.... 32 would be my first choice I guess, if not why a 36? Anyone know about the quality of "Traditions" I've seen them on the net not in person seems a cheap way to go. Can ya recommend other makers even "custom" smiths for a functional shooter not a safe queen. I just want to try the little balls and see what they/I can do. How do you pick a mold? slightly under groove size I assume. Any other boolits or would round ball be good....don't know if they make conicals or such.
So what say ye....any suggestions appreciated

[JeffinNZ]

Hi
You will find that a .32 or .36 will not have the 'legs' for 100 yard target quality shooting. Minimum I would suggest is .40cal. I run a pair of .40's (one each cap/flint) and over 100yards they go well but still at the bottom end.
200 is a looooooooooong way for a ball by the way.

[mooman76]

Like jeff said. the 32 & 36 won't do the range you want. I would recomend a .45. Nothing wrong with a 40 but the 45 is more common which will give you more options. Traditions or CVA is an ok brand. They used to use the same parts imported from Italy or Spain. Not your best but still shoot well. CVA is made here now, I don't know about Traditions but I believe they are better made now than they were. MLs being more popular and people demanding better quallity. If you just want a good used one you shouldn't have too much trouble finding one that is not too expensive if you look around. As far as RB moulds it does depend on the bore size and guns arem't always the same. One might like one size and one might like another. Some times you have to try and see what shoots best. The barrel twist rate will dictate as to wether it will shoot conicals well or not. The bigger the bore the less twist that is needed to stablize conicals.

[skullmount]

Here is a link from a couple years ago. Its a 35 caliber, shoots bullets not balls. My friend, Woodgoat, put it together for me...long distance, he is in Georgia, I am in Michigan
If you want more info on why the 35 over something smaller, I had to lean on Woodgoat for advice, I thought it would be cool to have something smaller too, he suggested that I would most likely fight fouling too much to really find out what this gun might be able to do. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=25290&highlight=dreamin


Here is a link from a couple weeks back. Its a 35 caliber barrel liner slid into a 50 caliber CVA Accura. I have not shot this one that much yet to see what it will do.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=73601&highlight=simple+barrel+liner

[FL-Flinter]

Jeff is right, the .32 or .36 will run a 100yds but not with any wind, dead calm they'll run impressive groups if the loading is right and trigger nut is tight. Any round ball is subject to wind drift and while the .40 or .45 will carry you to 150yds or even 200yds, they're still going to be subject to wind drift and if you want to go nuts and say .58 or .62, they're still going to be pushed by the wind but less so than smaller diameter balls. I have a few clients who do longer range match shooting with PRB's and while they won't give up their loading secrets, I can tell you that they're running slow-twist rifling.

If you put me on the spot to make a blind guess, I'd say you'll be happier with a .40 or .45 but keep in mind that you'll only get out of it what you put into it. Shallow-groove rifling is not conducive to ML's no matter if running conical or PRB and the potential for accuracy is greatly reliant upon the quality of the barrel as well as the quality of loading. I can build a gun with the highest quality barrel and if the loading sucks, so will the accuracy but all the high quality loading in the world won't make up for a low quality barrel.

If you're going with a sidelock, you need to consider the quality of the lock as well, especially a flintlock, but, a crappy percussion lock isn't going to be conducive to good performance and accuracy either. The extra money spent before is always less than the additional money you'll spend later.

Normally the suggestion for ball/patch combination is dependent upon the bore & groove diameters but the starting point is normally 0.005" under bore on the ball and a 0.015"-0.018" thick patch - every barrel is an individual just like suppository guns and appropriate adjustments will be made from there for fine tuning.

Conicals are a whole different world from PRB's but to answer your question in a general manner ... yes, conicals can be used in barrels dedicated to shooting conicals but they will often reqire dedication to load building in order to achieve the best results.

[357maximum]

I have seen dead stock (other than tang mounted peep sights) TC seneca's and cherokees in 36 and 45 fired with maxiballs at HOT speeds do rather well at 200 yards. The wind will still get to them loooong boolits too but not nearly as bad as a PRB. When I say "rather well" I mean they will keep most all shots in a 3 to 4inch square steel plate at 200 with the right nut behind the trigger.

If I were to tackle "YOUR WANT" I would find a GOOD HEAVY CUSTOM DEEP RIFLED FAST TWIST BARREL in 36 or 45 caliber and set it on a Hopkins and Allen style underhammer frame AND SHOOT MAXIBALLS with a felt under them......but at that point you are not going to have something even remotely "CHEAP".


I am currently setting up a 58caliber Roundball barrel with a modified rem rolling block sight to try to do similar loong range steel banging. Underhammer ignition 1inch slowtwister in 58 is not the same thing though.

[218bee]

well, it seems that if I desire decent accuracy possibly out to 200yds I should maybe be leaning toward a rifle that shoots conicals/ "regular" boolits. Probably a 45 would have widest choice of boolits available.
Flinter- I guess you are a maker of such?
I would go percussion as opposed to flintlock.
I understand assuming good rifle load development is on me....and that is what I enjoy doing.
Just curious about sizing boolits for a front stuffer using regular boolits such as the Lyman Whitworth.
I appreciate all the suggestions as I am still in planning stage

[FL-Flinter]

357Max brought up one thing and that's trying to push conicals from too-slow of a twist. Unless you far exceed the mfg's maximum load limits on the stock guns with the 1:48 twist bores, conicals will generally go wild beyond 50-70yds and even when you crank the snot out of them, you'll find that more often than not most won't make it past 100yds. I stress the word "most" as there are some exceptions as 357Max noted but they are not the rule. Over the years I've come across some cheap production guns that shot pretty good but most needed bore burnish & lap at minimum and all of them needed lock & trigger work, CVA & Traditions needed a lot.

I'll do my best to talk you out of Whitworth simply because of the fouling issues. I've had several of those style barrels and they've all been a pain in the butt - and don't take that as me saying you won't have to clean a round bore or the won't foul ... all I'm saying is that the Whitworth tend to be more challenging even for an experienced bullet pusher.

I've been messing with conicals for years and going back to the cheap production guns, I did have one .32 CVA that shot a custom paper patched bullet very good but even the conical was easily pushed around by the wind because it was length-limited by the 1:48 twist. When I got into faster twist bores, the length of the conical increased as did the long range accuracy but there's a trade-off in that too much twist becomes a fouling machine and also ends up limiting the maximum velocity. There are quite a number of different routes to go with conicals from naked skirted nose-mass to paper patch to R/B base to bore-swaged. Depending on what you want to do, there are combinations that will allow you to run a conical cast from a common production mold and some that will require custom molds/swaging dies.

And, just to be fair to the PRB's I still love, the ole .45 will do some impressive work on paper at 200yds 8-)

[357maximum]

And, just to be fair to the PRB's I still love, the ole .45 will do some impressive work on paper at 200yds 8-)

:drinks:The more I shoot PRBalls the less I want to play with the conicals[smilie=1:...... PatchedRoundBall flat getsRdid.........just pick the appropriate sized ball for what you are doing.

My .495 PRB's never stop amazing me..and is the main reason I am building the 58...just to carry a bit farther. I can hit a deer at 200+ with the 50...not that I should do such a thing.....but if I were really hungry[smilie=1::twisted:

BTW them 36 and 45 conicals were not overloaded "far" but yes they did get in "far enough" zone.

[waksupi]

You need Ned Roberts, "The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle", if you want to know about 200 yard shooting with the smaller bores.

[skullmount]

well, it seems that if I desire decent accuracy possibly out to 200yds I should maybe be leaning toward a rifle that shoots conicals/ "regular" boolits. Probably a 45 would have widest choice of boolits available.
Just curious about sizing boolits for a front stuffer using regular boolits such as the Lyman Whitworth.


I have cast the Lyman 457121, about 485 grains in pure lead, pan lubbed and sized it to .451 for a "slip fit" in a White...and as some have said of that bullet, boringly accurate !

[skullmount]

You need Ned Roberts, "The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle", if you want to know about 200 yard shooting with the smaller bores.

waksupi,
Do they also talk about conicals in that book ?

Thanks !

[218bee]

I did not mean Whitworth rifling I was referring to Lymans Whitworth style boolit.

[waksupi]

waksupi,
Do they also talk about conicals in that book ?

Thanks !

Sure do. Ned and the boys were serious benchrest shooters.

[rhbrink]

That is one of the best if not the best about long range muzzleloading that I have ever read. Lots of pictures of groups shot a 200 yards that are just amazing, great accounts of long range matches and lots and lots of great pictures of old guns. Well worth your time to get one if you can find one.

[buckweet]

00 ("double-ought").33" (8.4 mm)00 ("double-ought").33" (8.4 mm)


Lets get a Group Buy together



00 ("double-ought").33" (8.4 mm)00 ("double-ought") .33" (8.4 mm)

would be really cheap to shoot if you bought the balls in #25 pond bags. or you could mold conicals to paper patch.

I would like to build a Kentucky Squrril Rile with Flintlock or caplock

If we did a group by on Barrels and Locks and bands and some wood(anybody have a sawmill?) I bet we could put a kit together for $hort Money?


here is a good site about Kentucky rifles.

Why I bet we could even get Obama and the bouyz to finance our entire entourage of Squirrel Rifles under the National Endowment for the Arts. Wonder if that includes Black Powder too?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.housebrothersproject.com/articles/art_gfx/art1_1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.housebrothersproject.com/articles/article1.html&usg=__hmzd9mfh2P8I1w57r-DHWhqzMb4=&h=404&w=322&sz=39&hl=en&start=25&um=1&tbnid=7j3UMlgVatYJzM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=99&prev=/images%3Fq%3DKentucky%2BSquirrel%2BRifle%26ndsp%3D 21%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D21%26um%3D1



i've got the sawmill !

[blackpowder man]

I swapped a pedersoli brown bess 17 or 18 years ago for a number of guns including a pair of dixie tennessee squirrel rifles in .32. With a 42" barrel and double set triggers they shoot mighty straight. They are both percussion and at 100 yards they do well enough for smaller silhouettes. Been awhile since I shot paper at 100 though. Anyway what another guy said is true about the fouling. Both of these had the breech plug removed and worked over to reduce fouling problems and hangfire issues. At the local matches I start getting hangfires after 30+ rounds. I saw somebody maybe NEI that offered a .32 conical, but I just shoot roundballs. I have a.311 and a .313 mold that both work well. I see these rifles around used every so often and they seem high, but so does $600. for a new T/C hawken. I think .32 and .36 are fine calibers that use a lot less powder and lead. Having said that I would not part with my big bores.

[waksupi]

If you start getting hang fires, it means fouling has built up on your breech, and you need to use your breech scraper.

[FL-Flinter]

Don't ever shy away from trying 2F or Swiss 1.5 in the small bores because the results may surprise you not only with performance but also with much less fouling.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
There is a BEAUTIFUL caliber 40 flinter for sale at Traditional Muzzeloader sight. I have no stock in it... Just drooling every morning ....
Me I would go with a 40. lots of shots to the pound of powder. If you want to shoot .35´s use a thick patch (Double Blue gean). A 40 will flatten groundhogs, wabbits, coyotees and "coons". A 35 just does not have the UMPH to realiable body shoot bigger critters.
200 yards ??? I think the "Snipers" in the revolution were mostly using caliber 56 and above for the long officer shots. Where I hunt I am thrilled to see a deer size critter at 100 yards. Last deer I fired on was 22 yards. Last deer I stuck was trotting up the creek bed at 10 yards.

[Boz330]

40 if you want to shoot a 100yd, I doubt it will have much for 200 though. I have never tried 200 though. My 40 over sand bags and a bench will shoot a ragged hole at 100yd.
If you want to shoot slugs cleaning after each shot like the LR boys do is going to be a must. There are also other problems associated with shooting slugs especially heavy slugs. The breach pressures are high and burn out nipples pretty quick. The platinum nipples solve the problem but are $50 a piece.:shock:
I have to admit that a 35 slug gun sounds intriguing.

Bob

[skullmount]

Don't ever shy away from trying 2F or Swiss 1.5 in the small bores because the results may surprise you not only with performance but also with much less fouling.

FL-Flinter,

When my friend Woodgoat put together my first .350, he reported better accuracy with the 2f swiss than the 3f swiss...I have only shot 3f in the two .350 caliber ML's that I have now, I took a decent sized doe here in Michigan late in 2008 with the one that is built on the White action. I do have a bottle of 2f that I will get into shortly....hopefully this weekend...I grabbed the link to the .350 barrel liner project thread so guys can look at the bullet that I am talking about...I know someone was/is thinking that "this guy" is nutz, shooting at a deer with a 35 caliber.............

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=73601&highlight=simple+barrel+liner

[skullmount]

Here is a pic of a target shot with 2f Swiss out of the Accura .350
http://www.hunt101.com/data/541/medium/2-2-10_accura.jpg

[northmn]

Have to concur with others. 32 and 36 too small at any distance. Even a 40 is working at it. I went back to a 45 for target shooting some time ago after trying the small ones.

Northmn

[Geraldo]

218bee, you should probably check out these threads by idahoron:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=71134&highlight=idahoron

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=71136

[pietro]

[Anyone know about the quality of "Traditions" I've seen them on the net not in person seems a cheap way to go. ]

FWIW, "quality" & "cheap way to go" usually go about as well together as mustard on ice cream.

For the most part, the "Traditions" branded guns are "fair" starter pieces - although some are pretty decent samples from Pedersoli.

While conicals CAN be had for the smallbores, the .40 & .45's are quite a bit more available - bullets or moulds.

You might consider picking up a used T/C Hawken/Renegade on the cheap somewhere, and dropping in a .32/.36/.40 barrel until your curiosity is satisfied - THEN seeking out a custom quality whatever.

That's what I did - but ended up keeping the .32 for small game because my state rules out .45 & over for the little critters.

.

[skullmount]

Sure do. Ned and the boys were serious benchrest shooters.

waksupi,

Brought this back up because I took your advice and got the book late last winter and because I was wondering about twist rate in those guns that he wrote about....I don't recall him mentioning a twist for the guns at all, and then again, maybe oltimers has set in ??

[waksupi]

waksupi,

Brought this back up because I took your advice and got the book late last winter and because I was wondering about twist rate in those guns that he wrote about....I don't recall him mentioning a twist for the guns at all, and then again, maybe oltimers has set in ??

I don't recall at the time either, if twist was mentioned, but am pretty sure it would have been. If I have time, I'll try going back through to see.

[rhbrink]

You'll have to dig deep to find any information on twist in that book but there is some mentioned. I've have had to look a couple times myself but I think that most of the boolit rifles were twisted 1/16 to 1/18. I think that a lot of the long range 45 cal rifles may have been 1/20.