Cast Bullets Hardness

[686]

I Know Bullets Get Harder With Age. How Long Do You Wate Before Sizing, Hardness Testing, And Loading To Test. I Know You Cah Do It All In About One Hr. But What Is The Best.would You Wate 1 Day-week-mo ? I Have A Lyman 385627 215 Gr Gc Mould Comming. Also A Rcbs 200 Gr Gc . Just Made A New Batch Of Lead. 10 Lb Ww, 4 Lb Liontype, And 6 Oz. 60/40 . I Will Be Using Hodnandy Gc. This Will Be For My Tc 357 Meb Max. 15 In. Yes I Just Bought 2000 Rem 7 1/2 Primers Today. I Will Try Them First Or Mayme Only. Thanks For Any Help.

[Char-Gar]

|Try doing a search on the topic.... this has been covered many times on this board and the last time was just a couple of weeks ago.

[chunkum]

Without going in to the intricate details on observations of the many approaches, I've found that most casters, when wanting hard bullets either 1) use an alloy that's already hard enough when air cooled [as, for example, pure linotype], or 2) water drop when casting and size (and lube) immediately after the casting is done, or 3) size the bullets cast of the softer alloy and air cooled without lubing, heat treat and then lube in a sizer that is of the same or slightly larger (maybe 0.001") dimension than the original sizing. There are good reasons for all these approaches and, as Chargar stated, it's all in here somewhere, theory and all, and a few diligent searches will find it for you.
Best Regards,
chunkum

[felix]

Simply, wait one month after casting before doing anything to the boolits. Then, size, lube, and load only those you are going to shoot THAT day. ... felix

[686]

Simply, wait one month after casting before doing anything to the boolits. Then, size, lube, and load only those you are going to shoot THAT day. ... felix

WHY WOULD YOU ONLY LOAD WHAT YOU ARE GOINH TO SHOOT THAT DAY? IF YOU HAVE A STANDARD LOAD, WHAT IS WRONG WITH LOADING UP MORE?

[Bucks Owin]

WHY WOULD YOU ONLY LOAD WHAT YOU ARE GOINH TO SHOOT THAT DAY? IF YOU HAVE A STANDARD LOAD, WHAT IS WRONG WITH LOADING UP MORE?

I don't "get that" either. IMHO, either use a hard alloy or water drop and load as many as you want as soon as you want. "Aging" boolits ain't for me....
(Wine? OK!)

FWIW,

Dennis

[Bass Ackward]

Learning about when and where to size is paramount if a certain diameter is important. It is a lot easier and cheaper than having 100 different sizers per caliber. If you don't have a problem with size, then pick a routine what ever you want and stay with it. But most likely, you will have a procedure dictated on you by the limitations of your hardware if you have my luck. Helps if you have a hardness tester.

So many times that you hear someone say that they prefer hard bullets to soft or Visa versa they are really changing diameter by +/- .0015 and just don't have the "correct" reason nailed down yet.

[StarMetal]

Buck,

If you size your bullets within a day or so after casting them and load them that is fine. Say you size them all after you finished casting and they've cooled enought. Then you load them all in your favorite standard load. They can still age harden loaded!!!

Joe

[44man]

I talked to the antimony man about this and he told me the bullets should be sized within 1/2 hour of casting.
I think the way Bass does and never noticed any difference no matter when I size and lube as long as the boolit is the right size to start with. But if you have kept track of my posts, I use an oversize size die to remove excess lube whether in my Lee dies or the RCBS. I just do not believe in actually sizing the boolit unless it is way oversize which is rare.

[StarMetal]

Well 44man, according to alot of stuff you've said about cast bullets, I've done 100 % everything wrong and guess what? I've shoot them damn good and you know it.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Well 44man, according to alot of stuff you've said about cast bullets, I've done 100 % everything wrong and guess what? I've shoot them damn good and you know it.

Joe


Hey, hey! I have the name Bass Ackward and don't you forget it!. :grin:

[44man]

No you have not done anything wrong as long as the boolit fits the throats. (you didn't read my post good.) I don't think it matters when or how much you size. I never have to because my boolits are the size I want them as cast. I have done the same as you all these years, sizing some and not sizing others and if they fit I have never seen one single difference. I have sized boolits right away and I have sized them 2 years later. I can't see any change in the groups!
I think trying to keep the boolit's surface hard by sizing quick before they age harden is a bunch of crap. As long as the alloy is right for your gun it doesn't matter what you do. If anyone thinks softening the surface of a boolit by sizing means something, what happens in the first inch of the bore?
The same as casting at exactly the same temperature for every boolit. A bunch of crap too. If anyone can tell the difference between a frosted boolit and a shiny one, they are such exceptional shots they have no business on this site. They should be writing books and getting rich.
I never weigh boolits or sort the frosted from the shiny or worry about sizing one and not the other or when I do it. And you know how I shoot too.
I enjoy reading about all the things that you MUST do and have to laugh. All that is important is to match the size of the boolit to the gun and use the right alloy for the velocity or use of the boolit.
So, tell me Joe, do we think different?

[StarMetal]

44man,

I think you and I have done ALOT of the same things. I've also sized bullets from right away to yrs later and not noticed much difference. I use to shoot just really hard bullets, but anymore nothing really harder then waterquenched WW's. The only thing I've shot jacketed out of recently is my custom 260 Remington Arisaka and that was to break in the rifling and to also see what the rifle was capable of. I have alot of boxes of premium 30 caliber bullets on my shelf, like Winchester/Nosler Technogly, Barnes X both plain and moly coated and I doubt I'm ever going to shoot them. Have even been thinking about selling them.

Joe

[chunkum]

In test I've done for checking "relative" hardness with the Lee Hardness tester on the "radius" of the bullet, I have consistantly found that there is no relative change in the size of the dimple immediately after sizing a 3 day old water quenched bullet. However, there is also a consistant loss of 3.5 - 4 BHNs after 48 hrs if you figure it by the relative change in the dimple. Interestingly enough to me, if you check the same bullet three days further on, it's gaining in hardness on the sized radius again (again by the relative dimple size). I'm not sure just what it would peak at but the ones I've checked all do show a measurable decrease in the "dimple" size that would correlate with 2 - 3 BHNs if rechecked at that interval. As for how this affects the shootability, that is a test for another time, but the guys with sillouette experience tell me that if BHN is inside of a certain range (+/- 2- 2.5 BHNs) , it does not much affect accuracy in their experience.
Best Regards,
Chunkum

[44man]

Chunkum, have you ever found a change in the way they shoot? Most of that testing is a waste of time. So what if the hardness changes?
The way a lot of guys talk would make one believe that a boolit has to be sized at exactly 32.5 minutes after casting and it has to be shot 7.4 days after loading. My God, I have to melt down all of my boolits and start again. It looks like I have to cast one boolit, time it and shoot it at exactly the right second or it won't work.
Ya know what! Cast your boolits and size or not any time you have free, lube any way you like, store them away until you have time, load them and store them away until you can shoot and forget all the crapola.
I dare anyone to show me a boolit shoots different if shot an hour after casting, in two weeks or in five years.

[chunkum]

. As for how this affects the shootability, that is a test for another time, but the guys with sillouette experience tell me that if BHN is inside of a certain range (+/- 2- 2.5 BHNs) , it does not much affect accuracy in their experience.
Best Regards,
Chunkum
44man,
I'm not questioning yours or anyone elses experiences in shooting bullets of different hardnesses as to accuracy or inaccuracy. My post was just what I've found when checking for changes in hardnesses under different conditions. These changes interest me though I certainly appreciate not every shooter shares that interest. You are likely a much better shot than most and know exactly what you are talking about. I completely agree with you that we can complicate things too much some times to the point that they are no longer fun. Most of my shooting has been pretty informal and, since retirement, I've gotten more interested in some of the factors that play a part in alloy composition and lubes and other things that play a part in shootability of cast bullets, primarily because of more free time. As I've read information on this and other shooting forums I've found lots of stuff new to me that is likely old hat to a lot of shooters, but, suffice to say, I've learned about a lot of things that I never considered before. My post was intended to address the initial question and certainly not to contradict you or anyone else. I would like to do some shooting to test the varying theories on hardness changes and accuracy but I doubt I'll live long enough to get around to them all. That's why I like to read the shooting forums. To learn from other shooters who share their knowledge and experience.
Best Regards,
chunkum

[drinks]

44;
I size my water dropped bullets as soon as I stop casting and can get them dried off, but that is because I really do not like working up a sweat trying to size .461, BHN 32 bullets down to .459 while checking them, which would be the case if I waited a day or 2 to size and check, just color me lazy!

[felix]

The fatter the boolit, the less important it is to size it when it is soft because any percentage error is very low. The smaller the boolit in diameter, or the longer it is at any diameter, the importance of when to size becomes a little more paramount if the boolits are going to be shot in rifles at the longer ranges. So, in general, the boolits should be sized when they are rock hard so they would have any errors minimized by the process. Best not to size them at all as per 44man. ... felix

[charger 1]

I'm told by many sources the hardness(or most of it)is on the very outside. I took some of my cast 21bn 45 slugs that I can bash with a hammer till their 1/16" thick, and heat treated them. One bash with the hammer now and theres glass everywhere..No alloy change. Only 1.5% tin added to wheel weights at the beginning..Thats more than just a case on something when it crumbles like that..That bullet can be sized any time,IMO

[44man]

Charger, thats true. That is what I meant when a bullet is shot and is sized tighter in the throat, then sized again when it enters the rifling. Of what use is all the surface hardening to keep a boolit in a tightly controlled region? Just water dropping them will harden the boolit deep enough for all purposes. Heat treating just makes the surface harder with a minimum hardness change deep in the boolit. Seems a lot easier to add some antimony.
I have done all the things I have read about and just changing the alloy will have the largest long term effect. Some of my hotter loads just will not shoot with WW metal or softer. Adding tin and antimony makes them shoot. For light plinking loads, WW metal is good enough. Once the correct alloy is used, I find no difference between water dropped or air cooled as far as accuracy. I water drop because it is easier then keeping them from bumping each other on a towel and waiting for them to cool.

[686]

Charger, thats true. That is what I meant when a bullet is shot and is sized tighter in the throat, then sized again when it enters the rifling. Of what use is all the surface hardening to keep a boolit in a tightly controlled region? Just water dropping them will harden the boolit deep enough for all purposes. Heat treating just makes the surface harder with a minimum hardness change deep in the boolit. Seems a lot easier to add some antimony.
I have done all the things I have read about and just changing the alloy will have the largest long term effect. Some of my hotter loads just will not shoot with WW metal or softer. Adding tin and antimony makes them shoot. For light plinking loads, WW metal is good enough. Once the correct alloy is used, I find no difference between water dropped or air cooled as far as accuracy. I water drop because it is easier then keeping them from bumping each other on a towel and waiting for them to cool.



thanks for all the info. what you listed is what i have been doing for years just thought i might find a better way. is it better to water drop a ww bullet as apposed a hard one? for mt thompson contender 357 rem max i am using 10 lb ww--4 lb liono--6 oz 60-40 soder. it will be gc bullet. 1200-1500 fps. do you think i need to watter drop or will it just not hurt to do it any way. i to have water d years ago for the same ease of mot having theb bump while casting. i am not mew to reloading or casting just older and want to be wiser. thanks

[charger 1]

These two are both 458, both cast from ww's with 1.5% tin added, both water dropped,both pounded with a hammer. The one on the right was oven treated at 460. Tell me that hardness was just sitting on the outside...
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/Chargerdive/HPIM0754.jpg