Need info on .401 Win. SL

[Blackwater]

I'm working on a M-1910 Win. in .401 WSL caliber, and got to wondering if it can be made to shoot again. IIRC, the case is unique, and shares no dimensions with any other ctg. However, I think (?) I remember that the .35 Rem. is too big. The .35 has a case head dia. of .460" nominal. Also noticed that the 7.62x39's head dia. is .445, and wondered if that might be used to form new brass. The case length of the .401 is 1.495" trim to, and 1.500" max. Looks like it must headspace on the case mouth, like the .45 ACP, but I don't recollect that for sure.

Can anyone provide any info on forming cases for this old gun? Any info on the gun would be appreciated, also. I'm just kinda' impressed with this old gun. For the curious, the fella' who brought it in found it under a bridge, laying on top of some supports. Can't help but wonder if it has a body on it. Why else would someone hide it like that??? Looked up the serial # and it was made in 1911, the 2nd year of production. Can't guess when it was laid up under that bridge, though, but it was protected pretty good from the elements, apparently. It's in pretty decent shape. The nickel steel receiver had some pitting, more than would be expected from the "freckling" so characteristic of nickel steels, but not anywhere near what I'd have feared it would have. I've sanded out most of the pits, and it's actually going to finish up pretty good. The forend was split, and I'll be fixing that this coming week. Other than that, the wood's actually in decent shape, and I'll use Tru Oil on it. I've found a new respect for Tru Oil after learning to use a polishing wheel with an unstitched clean buffing wheel to polish down to the wood. Produces a very respectable looking finish.

I'm new at this gunsmithing thing, at least for other folks. Have done stuff for friends, and friends of friends, but not commercially. One thing I'm learnin' fast - this work gets real interesting real fast sometimes.

This old .401's really captured my interest, and I don't know what the fella plans for it, but I'm certainly going to put in a bid for him to let me know if he's gonna' sell it. I've really taken a shine to this gun. He's the boss, and wanted a complete refin, but I'm trying to leave it in a condition where if a subsequent owner wants to redo it as originally issued, they'll have that option. For now, it'll get a good hot blue, and the Tru Oil on the stock, which I think is at least respectable, if it's got to be done. Just want to leave all options open to any subsequent owners, too. The gun's a lot simpler inside than I'd originally suspected it might be. Looks like a very reliable design, given good ammo.

Just hope 7.62x39's will be close enough to use for new brass?

[Bret4207]

Old Western Scrounger had 401 ammo a while back. they went through some changes and you'll ahve to hunt around to find them. Also, either Handloaders Digest or Gun Digest had a Holt Bodinson article on the 401 a few years back. If you can locate a listing of articles you amy be able to find it. If I get a chance I'll see if I have it. Maybe something as simple a a "Google" search would bring results. Neat rifles.

[Urny]

From John J. Donnelly's Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions:

"MAKE FROM: 9,3x72R. Turn rim to 457" dia. and back chamfer. Cut case to
1.55" and taper expand to .410" dia. Trim to length and size in .401 die with the expander removed. I.D. neck ream. Chamfer and F/L size. Fireform in chamber."

That sounds a lot of work. Finding the Old Western Scrounger sounds better.

[45 2.1]

Cases, the easy way:
30-30, cut to slightly over length, reduce rim diameter. fireform, trim, load. Fairly simple and works. Minture lathes are the berries for ammo making projects. I've been hunting a 1910 Win for a long time with no results except one that had been dropped on its muzzle with disasterous results. Have molds and dies waiting on it too.

[Ross]

Buffalo has brass:

401 Winchester Self Loading Cases*
Brass / .36-.41 Caliber
Item #: 401WSL
Your Price: $1.15 / Each
Unit:
Each ($1.15)
20 ($20.00)
50 ($44.00)
100 ($83.00)
This brass uses a RCBS #32 shell holder, item number RCB9232.

Howell suggests either .35 Remington or .303 Savage for a parent case.

Cheers from Darkest California,
Ross

[Blackwater]

Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. 45/2.1, that .30/30 brass seems like the best way to go, I think. Will pass on the info if I can't get this gun myself, which I doubt I'll be able to do. I'd just like to see it shooting again, even if it can't be mine.

[Chuck White]

You can make 401 WSL brass from 35 Rem! Just trim to length!
The 401 headspaces on the rim. It's a semi-rimmed case!

I looked at a box of 401 WSL loaded ammo at a local gun shop here a while back and the headstamp read 303 British! These were trimmed to length and then part of the rim was removed!

[45 2.1]

I also forgot to say that 7.62x39 brass expanded and trimmed makes perfect brass. Lots of options for you.

[Bent Ramrod]

You might want to get one of those net brass catchers from Midway if you plan to shoot the .401. It does indeed hit "like the hammer of Thor" but it slings those expensive cases out pretty hard and far, too.

The standard cast bullet for the .401 is the obsolete Ideal 410426, but a friend of mine has shot 41 magnum cast gas-check bullets in his reformed cases. (He bought the loaded ammo from some guy at a gun show, so I don't know what the load was.) As I recall, the proper bullet size is .406" Accuracy of his rifle is about par with that of his Ruger .44 Magnum carbine.

[Andy_P]

I'm making this into a Methusaleh thread for sure (2 1/2 years between posts), but I have some recent experience with the 401 WSL I think is worth sharing. I've made brass from five different cartridge cases and all work fine.

As far as "fit" (closeness to original), I'd rank them:

1 - 35 Rem
2 - 303 Brit (a tie with #1)
3 - 7.62x39
4 - 30-30
5 - 6.8 mm SPC

As far as amount of work and tools required (easiest first):

1 - 6.8mm SPC
2 - 30-30
3 - 35 Rem
4 - 303 Brit
5 - 7.62x39

[brakeline]

The 30-30 and 6.8 Rem case bodys are both a good bit undersize (the 6.8 Rem is just the old .25 Rem & .30 Rem case, which was a rimless version of the 30-30). The others are oversize and really take some power to swage down (I've only actually tried the .35 Rem case, in a special two-stage die that RCBS once made for this purpose.) I've never seen anyone suggest the .220 Swift case and I wonder why - maybe it's just too precious to start with(?), but it's a much closer fit - only about half the swaging required as with the .35 Rem, AND the rim is about right. Has anyone tried this?

[Andy_P]

Yes, the 30-30 and 6.8mm SPC are both undersized by about 10 thou at the base, but I have never encountered a problem with that in the 401 WSL or some other chamberings I've made brass up for (8x58R from 8x56 Mannlicher being another example). A round of aluminum tape on the first firing has always ensured that they form symmetrically. A lot of work saved in either swaging or turning down the base diameter.

Good point on the 220 Swift - I didn't try it, but only because I didn't have any. Neither have I tried the 6.5x50mm Arisaka (6.5mm Japanese), nor the 6.5x52 Carcano, both of which seem good candidates and are available from Grafs and elsewhere.

[luckysarge]

Bob Shell of Apache Junction Arizona sells reloads for the 401 if you want shoot a few through it and get brass built up instead of reforming your own. I found brass ar $1.15 a piece but Bob threw me a deal for 100 rounds already loaded for $1.50 a round. Can't reload it for that and I have cases TO reload now. His e-mail is rel4350@aol.com. He has a legit reloading business

[missionary5155]

Good morning The NRA fact book gives the SAAMI max dimensions for the 401 WSL as:
.458 rim
.435 Head
.432 mouth
.407bullet
1.500case length
2.005 overall

[Andy_P]

Finally got ahold of some Starline 414 Super Mag. The perfect base for 401 WSL - reduce the rim to 0.458" and the length to 1.500". Presto - done.

The 414 Super Mag is to 401 WSL what the 357 Maximum is to 351 WSL.

[Andy_P]

I have found after a bit of experimentation that H4227 (and I imagine IMR4227) is THE powder for these rounds and guns. Right up to full cases with bullets weighing 180 grs (in the 351 WSL) and 210 grs (in the 401 WSL) are accurate and cycle the action effectively.

I tried Unique and Blue Dot and observed an interesting phenonenom:

- too low a charge with either powder (and H4227) and the action won't cycle (already widely reported); but
- too high a charge with those powders (both faster than H4227) and the action won't cycle. I had expected a more vigorous cycling, but not lock-up.

I theorize that the faster pressure curve causes the cartridge walls to grip the chamber too early in the extraction cycle, effectively locking the action. So while the maximum pressure is less than or the same as for H4227, where it occurs makes a difference.

[BerdanIII]

From Ideal Handbook No. 38:
250-gr. lead plain base #410426
2400 - 18.0 start 1430 fps - 23.0 max 1700 fps
4227 - 19.0 start 1450 fps - 27.5 max 1850 fps
Unique - 13.7 1550 fps

200-gr. jacketed
2400 - 19.0 start 1595 fps - 24.7 max 2060 fps
4227 - 29.0 start 1965 fps - 31.0 max 2100 fps
SR4759 - 20.0 1525 fps
Unique - 15.2 1785 fps

250-gr. jacketed
2400 - 18.0 start 1430 fps - 23.3 max 1765 fps
4227 - 19.0 start 1445 fps - 27.5 max 1850 fps
SR4759 - 19.0 1425 fps
Unique - 13.7 1525 fps

From Complete Guide to Handloading:
200-gr. SP seating depth 0.217"
2400 - 13.0 - 990 fps
2400 - 19.0 - 1525 fps
2400 - 24.7 - 2060 fps
Unique - 10.0 - 1290 fps
Unique - 15.2 - 1785 fps
4227 - 31.0 - 2100 fps (s/d 0.200")

250-gr. SP seating depth 0.323"
2400 - 11.0 - 720 fps
2400 - 18.0 - 1430 fps
2400 - 23.3 - 1765 fps
Unique - 9.0 - 1090 fps
Unique - 13.7 - 1525 fps
4227 - 19.0 - 1445 fps (s/d 0.300")
4227 - 27.5 - 1850 fps (s/d 0.300")

250-gr. lead (mould not specified) seating depth 0.292"
2400 - 12.0 - 1050 fps
2400 - 15.0 - 1285 fps
2400 - 18.0 - 1480 fps
Unique - 10.0 - 1330 fps

I doubt that the lighter Unique and 2400 loads could cycle the action, but they would save wear and tear on the cases by not launching them into the weeds.

From "The 401 Lives!", H. Bodinson, Handloader's Digest, 12th Ed.

"To make a long story short, #2400, while accurate, proved more dirty than I like in a blowback action. It just never seems to burn completely in any straight-bodied pistol-sized case I have ever loaded. Firing it in the Model 1910 left the action area full of unburned powder particles. IMR-4227, however, worked perfectly. It produced good accuracy, excellent velocity, reliable operation of the 1910 action and was very clean burning."

"Using Bell or Sailer (note: made from .35 Remington case) brass trimmed to 1.50 inches, the three brands of available jacketed bullets seated to an overall cartridge length of 2 inches, IMR-4227 powder, and Remington 9½ primers, my final factory duplication loads turned out to be the following:
200 -gr. jacketed bullet
29.0 grs. IMR-4227 / 2040 fps
250-gr. jacketed bullet
27.0 grs. IMR-4227 / 1880 fps"

I saw one of these rifles hung on the wall next to a broken window in the old county jail at Archer City, Texas (tourist, not inmate). It and several other vintage rifles nearby were rusted to tomato stake status. That and the gallows set up in the stairwell in the corner of building (the landing was the gallows platform and was designed to break away, starting the soon-to-be-departed on his short trip) are about the only things I remember from the unofficial tour.

[NYBushBro]

I just got a Model 1910 .401 WSL and am trying to locate a used Lyman 410426 mold to cast bullets for it... can anyone help?

[Buckshot]

..............Graf & Son is advertising new made .401 Winchester brass.

.............Buckshot

[wazza2222]

Bertram Brass is making it too, I got mine for about $NZ1 a case... (roughly US75c) he posted to me direct!
I am going to try sized .41 Magnum slugs to start as moulds appear to be unobtanium here in New Zealand:-(
CH4 sizing dies... cheap and fast service!

Waz

[Dutchman]

From my cartridge collection:

http://images46.fotki.com/v400/photos/2/28344/3886627/c042-vi.jpg

http://images108.fotki.com/v1583/photos/2/28344/3886627/c043-vi.jpg

[Molly]

I'm working on a M-1910 Win. in .401 WSL caliber, and got to wondering if it can be made to shoot again. IIRC, the case is unique, and shares no dimensions with any other ctg. However, I think (?) I remember that the .35 Rem. is too big. The .35 has a case head dia. of .460" nominal. Also noticed that the 7.62x39's head dia. is .445, and wondered if that might be used to form new brass. The case length of the .401 is 1.495" trim to, and 1.500" max. Looks like it must headspace on the case mouth, like the .45 ACP, but I don't recollect that for sure.

Can anyone provide any info on forming cases for this old gun? Any info on the gun would be appreciated, also. I'm just kinda' impressed with this old gun. For the curious, the fella' who brought it in found it under a bridge, laying on top of some supports. Can't help but wonder if it has a body on it. Why else would someone hide it like that??? Looked up the serial # and it was made in 1911, the 2nd year of production. Can't guess when it was laid up under that bridge, though, but it was protected pretty good from the elements, apparently. It's in pretty decent shape. The nickel steel receiver had some pitting, more than would be expected from the "freckling" so characteristic of nickel steels, but not anywhere near what I'd have feared it would have. I've sanded out most of the pits, and it's actually going to finish up pretty good. The forend was split, and I'll be fixing that this coming week. Other than that, the wood's actually in decent shape, and I'll use Tru Oil on it. I've found a new respect for Tru Oil after learning to use a polishing wheel with an unstitched clean buffing wheel to polish down to the wood. Produces a very respectable looking finish.

I'm new at this gunsmithing thing, at least for other folks. Have done stuff for friends, and friends of friends, but not commercially. One thing I'm learnin' fast - this work gets real interesting real fast sometimes.

This old .401's really captured my interest, and I don't know what the fella plans for it, but I'm certainly going to put in a bid for him to let me know if he's gonna' sell it. I've really taken a shine to this gun. He's the boss, and wanted a complete refin, but I'm trying to leave it in a condition where if a subsequent owner wants to redo it as originally issued, they'll have that option. For now, it'll get a good hot blue, and the Tru Oil on the stock, which I think is at least respectable, if it's got to be done. Just want to leave all options open to any subsequent owners, too. The gun's a lot simpler inside than I'd originally suspected it might be. Looks like a very reliable design, given good ammo.

Just hope 7.62x39's will be close enough to use for new brass?

With a little ingenuity, cases can be made for virtually ANY gun. Before we had the wide variety of brass that's available today, I used to make 450/577 cases by turning a base and rim on a lathe, with a hole just barely big enough to press-fit a heavily annealed 30-06 case. Fireforming loss was high, but I had lots of '06 cases, and no other way to shoot the old Martini. When a case failed, I just drilled out the old '06 case and fireformed another. Worked like a charm.

Another way to go about it is to find a current case with a rim that's just a trifle TOO big to work, and trim it to fit with a lathe. Or if you're working with a rimless case, select the largest one whose base will go into the chamber. Don't worry about length: That's easily adjustable. (See below)

Then drive down to the local hobby shop and look through their selection of telescoping brass tubing. Find some tubing that will press-fit over the case you just turned to fit the chamber rim. Cut to a suitable length and press it down over the case, without trimming the old case. No glue, no soldering needed. Lube well and you can run it through a sizing die without pulling it apart. Fireform with a stiff load of Bullseye. The inner case will fireform to the tubing, and you will have a case of slightly reduced capacity, but quite usable for a decent number of reloads. There will be NO gas leakage or other undesirable problems. If you didn't KNOW you put them together, you'd almost swear they were original cases.

If you're working with a rimless case, find the largest case that will go into the chamber, and build it up with tubing that can be press-fit almost to the extractor groove, or to within half an inch of it anyhow. Cut off a suitable length and press it down over the rimless case as far as it will conveniently go (short of covering the extractor groove). Size to fit the chamber and fireform. Again, the interior case will fireform to the tubing like they were soldered, so you can make any length case you need. These will work well for numerous reloads, as long as you remember that the case does not have the capacity of an original.

[Andy_P]

You could do that or:


Finally got ahold of some Starline 414 Super Mag. The perfect base for 401 WSL - reduce the rim to 0.458" and the length to 1.500". Presto - done.

The 414 Super Mag is to 401 WSL what the 357 Maximum is to 351 WSL.

[texasnative46]

To All,

In case anyone is wondering if it's worth your time to buy a .401WSL and/or make cases for hunting, let me tell you that one of the long-departed hunters, who was on our lease, killed over 25 WT with his 1910 & never had a deer run more than a few steps. = That 220 grain bullet @ 1800FPS is A KILLER out to 200M.

Btw, the .401 has a DISTINCTIVE report, that is like NO other rifle that I can think of. = BLAM.
(When I would hear the "BLAM" long ago when I was a "shirttail kid", in the woods, I knew we would eat venison stew soon, as Mr. Cross was deadly with his little carbine. = WWII/Korea Combat Marines tend to be excellent marksmen.)

yours, tex

[Outpost75]

I just got a Model 1910 .401 WSL and am trying to locate a used Lyman 410426 mold to cast bullets for it... can anyone help?

Tom at Accurate molds can make a clone for you.

[cuzinbruce]

I recently purchased new Jamison 401WSL cases. Good quality. They shoud still be around.

[texasnative46]

cuzinbruce,

WHERE did you find the cases?
(I know someone who has a "perfectly suitable" but needs "full restoration" Model 1910 for a decent price.)

Note: To the "collectors", I won't be "messing up an antique" IF I buy the 1910, as it's been "remodeled" more than once. = For one thing, it's had an all-over cold-blue job that looks like H.

yours, tex

[Bent Ramrod]

You can order cases direct from Captech Int'l. They make the (former) Jamison brand cases, and the .25-20SS and .44-77 I've bought of them are good stuff.

Also, better go to Midway and buy one of those shell catchers that hang over the ejector port. A friend had a .401, and it really flang those empties out there!

[texasnative46]

Bent Ramrod,

You are 100% CORRECT. - Not only did I see Mr. Cross shoot his .401 carbine often when I was a "shirttail kid" but he sometimes let me shoot it. - My memory is that it threw empties 20-25 feet from him/me.

Inasmuch as I sold my "1970 Colt RVN-era AR15 clone" to my landlord last Sunday, I suspect that the Model 1910 that I've mentioned here is my next "restoration" project.

yours, tex

[2152hq]

I make 401SL from 7.62x39mm. It's the easiest & cheapest parent brass to use that I've found.
No trimming for length, no rim alteration, no extractor groove alteration.
I use 41Magnum reloading dies and LEAD 41magnum pistol bullets (.410)

I've used 35Rem in the past and it was far from as easy as sizing and trimming to length. They need the base dia turned to size after the initial forming. The 35Rem is .458/460 at the base, the .401 is .430 IIRC.
35Rem is not easy to find anymore anyway.
30-30 works OK,,just a little undersize at the base, but there's still lathe work to remove the rim and cut a new extractor groove plus trimming.

I use primarily 7.62x39 Winchester brass. Some other brands may be too thick at the mouth . I found that w/ PPU (PrviPartizan?) brass.

I've see a few long drawn out methods to expand the Soviet case from 30cal to 40cal on the net using complicated configured and shaped expander mandrils of several steps. Warnings of not trying to do the expanding in one step or brass failure is a given.
I simply took an unused RCBS 45acp expander die and removed the expander plug. I tapered that 45 plug to from just under 30cal to 40cal at the upper end.
I did it on my small lathe, but it can be done w/ files in a drill press. The plug is (was) soft and the dimensions are not critical. Being smooth and polished is most important.

The Shell Holder for the brass is a common 38sp/357. I did anneal the brass at the neck and shoulders before expanding. Simple cadence of a 1 to 5 count while rolling the case in the propane flame holding it w/ my fingers by the head and dropping it into a pan of water.
Lots of ways to anneal the brass.

I heavily lubed the inside of the necks of the dry brass and then run them into the altered expander die. That opens the mouth to .40 and leaves the rest of the case rather wasp-waist looking as the tapered expander and the tapered inner walls of the brass decide how far to a full cylinder they will be,
The case does not need trimming to length,,it is fine as is. The round headspaces on a semi-rim on the original and the 7.62x39 affords a semi-rim for headspacing also,,though a VERY small one of a only a few .000 dia over case head size. I have never has a problem with this nor seen anyone else mention any.
You can roll crimp the bullet.

Next, I run the cases into a FL 41Magnum sizer die. This forms the case up better and will deprime it if you want it to.
It'll still have the thin waist look,, that'll be with it till the first fireing when it'll disappear as it is completely fireformed.

Prime the case.

Expand the mouth and flare in the 41Mag expander.

Charge the case. I use 4227 and that is the go-to powder for the 401. I won't recommend any loads but will note that the heavier Soviet brass will NOT take the recommended charge weights that you find in print using commercial brass.
Also note that 4227 works best when a case full or very lightly compressed charge is used.

Next seat the .410d LEAD bullet using the 41MAg seater die. I lightly crimp the bullets in place for the recoil and you don't want to eject a loaded round and leave the bullet stuck in the bbl dumping powder into the action.

This last step generally leaves you with a round that looks kinda 'off',,, the taped thin waist of the yet to be fire formed case,, and sometimes the seated .410 slug will slightly bulge the mouth of the case.
The former will take care of itself very nicely when you fire them. The cases will come out of the rifle nice and cylindrical,,and about 15 ft from you
The other issue of the bulged case from the seated bullet I take care of simply by lightly lubing the outside of the case at the mouth and running the loaded round back up into the F/L sizer but just enough to size that case bulge away. It's an educated push but easily done.
Some makes of brass won't need that done, others will just because of the differences in thickness at the mouth.
The 41Mag die is a little larger at the mouth than the 401SL but this works out with the difference in brass thickness.

I do not load jacketed .410d bullets into the 401SL. Here I would only use .407/408d bullets
A Lee bullet sizer die would be the ticket for that and actually the cure for the last step in the above.
They can make one for you on order. I have a spare .400 die handy that I think I'll just lap out to .407 and make use of it.

Brass lasts for 5 or 6 loads before they become so mangled that I just scrap them. Only a couple suffered cracked necks. The Winchester really roughs them up during ejection.
But 5 reloads isn't bad for a semiauto and I'd rather replenish w/newer brass instead of trying to wring the last possible load out of them. Especially in a 100 y/old blowback op rifle.

[texasnative46]

2152aq,

THANKS for this useful post.

yours, tex

[partsman57]

Oka, bought my second 351 1907 and now I have coming March 16th a 1910 401 winchester sl, i have dies and all the stuff for the 351, but as this is my first foray into the 401 I have bought bullets, of two different types, bought 414 super mag brass to try reform, also have reformed 7.62x39 brass coming, and am trying to buy some 6.5 grendel basic brass, I posted below about from their site, will also buy some 762x39 brass to try doing myself, looking forward to playing with it.

This brass is the same as our standard 6.5 Grendel brass except that it has not been formed and has no caliber designation on the headstamp. It should work for most 6.5 Grendel and 7.62x39mm based wildcats. This brass has not been annealed, and will require a body anneal prior to forming, and possibly a neck anneal after forming, depending on how far it is necked down. Wall thickness at the mouth of this brass is approximately .009", which is the same as our 6.5 Grendel brass prior to forming (the walls will get thicker when formed down, and the case will also get longer). Length is approximately 1.550"

[DCM]

Seems this would fit in an AR-15, we could call it a 401 Legend. :)