How to identify once fired brass

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I'm an old hand at range pickups but still get fooled occasionally on the once fired issue. I know from the general run of overall questions some gnubies just don't know and this looked like a good place to provide some advice.

There is security in most once fired brass. Not so in some pickups.

Personally I wreck my discards or more commonly now use my scrap bucket. The best brass to find is from the felow that puts the fired brass back in the box and leaves it on the bench to be found. It is easy to be pretty sure with a quick visual inspection. The next is when there are cases left at the bench that look new, and with 30-30 and others I can see that and confirm by feeling the factory crimp with a fingernail, because most reloaders would trim or remove the crimp with a champfer before reloading.

Would anyone else contribute to this? BvT

[mike in co]

i have a couple of simple things that most don't get.
two of my ranges only allows NEW AMMO, or blackhills reman 223. since the reman 223 is typically current lake city brass and the full reman, i still sell as once fired, tho i tell the buyer.

a couple of my ranges have rules that minimize the use of reloads.

so its fairly easy for me.

look for mismatched primers to brass maker, reamed primer pockets on 223 brass, any common mil brass without a crimp, marks on the case from sizing, powder residue in the extractor groove.

just a couple

mike in co
THE COLORADO BRASS COMPANY

[Gelandangan]

:rolleyes:
They are all once fired!!

theoretically they cannot be twice fired until they are reloaded [smilie=b:

[mike in co]

:rolleyes:
They are all once fired!!

theoretically they cannot be twice fired until they are reloaded [smilie=b:

thats the kind of statement that cause heartache in the brass sales business......

sorry not funny from my side of the street.

mike in co

[danski26]

I think it would be an interesting experiment to see if anyone could tell if brass was once, twice, three or more times fired. Unless you see it come out of a factory sealed box, fired in a weapon and then you pick it off the ground i think you are guessing.

[Cadillo]

I think it would be an interesting experiment to see if anyone could tell if brass was once, twice, three or more times fired. Unless you see it come out of a factory sealed box, fired in a weapon and then you pick it off the ground i think you are guessing.


It's usually not that difficult to look at a case and determine whether or not it has ever been resized. If it has not, it is either once fired or never fired. Now, if it has ever been resized, the number of times it has been sized is a matter of pure conjecture.

I pick up a lot of pistol and rifle brass at the range. I pass on any rifle brass that has ever been resized, which means that I am taking home once fired brass. If you can't already tell the difference, a written explanation will not suffice.

[mike in co]

It's usually not that difficult to look at a case and determine whether or not it has ever been resized. If it has not, it is either once fired or never fired. Now, if it has ever been resized, the number of times it has been sized is a matter of pure conjecture.

I pick up a lot of pistol and rifle brass at the range. I pass on any rifle brass that has ever been resized, which means that I am taking home once fired brass. If you can't already tell the difference, a written explanation will not suffice.

right,
its new, once fired or trash.....

[danski26]

Cadillo,

Thank you for your comment. If you are willing to take a "pepsi" challenge. I will send you 5 cases. 4 will be once fired or new and one will be many fired. I challenge you to pick out the many fired piece. PM me with your address and we will post the findings here. Should be fun! Baron.....I'll extend the same offer to you because you started this thread.

Also....no micrometers allowed. Just what you would have with you at the range whe you pick up the brass or your at home instpection techniques.

[deltaenterprizes]

Most once fired pistol brass is still clean on the inside. Unless multifired brass is washed prior to reloading it will be dark inside.That was taught to me at an indoor range I worked at part time. I also look for a ring where the sizing die stops resizing the case.

[captaint]

Yeah, I mean they either have die marks on them or they don't. How many guys size cases and then polish them after?? enjoy Mike

[Freischütz]

I agree with deltaenterprizes. I can tell a lot by conditions inside the case.

But this discussion makes me wonder - is it possible to remove all the residue from the case's inside and make it bright and shiny like it's new?

[acoilfld]

I agree with deltaenterprizes. I can tell a lot by conditions inside the case.

But this discussion makes me wonder - is it possible to remove all the residue from the case's inside and make it bright and shiny like it's new?


I have rinsed brass in Acetone to clean the "black" out of my dirtiest cases.


I consider most brass that I pick up at the range "Once Fired" - a re-loader would not have left it behind! :)
(My theory)

AC

[mike in co]

I have rinsed brass in Acetone to clean the "black" out of my dirtiest cases.


I consider most brass that I pick up at the range "Once Fired" - a re-loader would not have left it behind! :)
(My theory)

AC

no but a "shooter" can "buy" reloaded ammo, and leave the brass.
OR
a reloader considers it worn out, and just leaves it.......

die marks are a big give away.
polishing does not remove it all

i sell to comercial reloaders.....i know at least one that uses a wash system....that brass is CLEAN!

mike in co
THE COLORADO BRASS COMPANY

[GP100man]

The wet media tubs will clean inside the cases as well as the outside.

If straight walled gets by the inspection I can tell work hardened brass when it hits the sizing die !!

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Once fired brass usually lets you see where the primer anvil was sitting in the pocket when you removed the primer, right? , Pocket not totally dirty, right? What is another sign ? BvT

[Gee_Wizz01]

I do "wash" some of my brass, usually my bench rest brass and some of my 45-70 and .45 Colt brass. I use my ultra sonic cleaner to wash the brass, and they look new when I finish, no carbon around the neck, primer pocket or inside case. I clean the cases so I can inspect easily, or because I have fired BP in the brass. I will never knowingly leave any of my brass on the range, if I can find it. In most cases if the brass has been reloaded you can see die marks on the brass, but some neck sizing dies leave almost no telltale signs. If I am not sure I will clean the brass and look for any signs of incipient head separation and I will mic the bases. If still in doubt, it goes into the scrap brass bucket.


G

[dale2242]

Sorry to hijack your thread Baron, BUT:
By mike in co: a couple of my ranges have rules that minimize the use of reloads
Could you elaborate a little more on that statement. Do they sell factory ammo or what. What kind of range would "minimize" the use of reloads? HMMMM...dale

[deltaenterprizes]

I agree with deltaenterprizes. I can tell a lot by conditions inside the case.

But this discussion makes me wonder - is it possible to remove all the residue from the case's inside and make it bright and shiny like it's new?

Yes it is, a commercial reloader friend of mine had a process to do that, he called it"washing". I thought he was telling a story so when I found some of his ammo at the indoor range, I took it home and pulled the bullet and it was as clean inside as outside, but not polished inside.
He told me how to do it. It takes a lot of time with multiple tumbling in a couple of wet media, one was an acid.

Range's insurance companies are concerned about liability from accidents caused by improperly reloaded ammo on their property.

[mike in co]

Sorry to hijack your thread Baron, BUT:
By mike in co: a couple of my ranges have rules that minimize the use of reloads
Could you elaborate a little more on that statement. Do they sell factory ammo or what. What kind of range would "minimize" the use of reloads? HMMMM...dale

thier call on the ammo you shoot at thier range. they inspect all incomming ammo.
two of the ranges do not allow any exposed lead.......so no cast boolits.....
that would be a significant part of reloaded ammo........
again, because of insurance...their call, no arguments.

ohhh, by the way a customer on thier rifle range took in a single round of ap to see how it shot. it shot right thru the back interior wall, thru the bullet collector, and into an exhaust fan......his bill was something close to $10,000.


mike in co

[Freightman]

It is very rare to find a good piece of re loadable brass at the range I am a member of, so if you find some lying around be very Leary of it as it is more than likely trash.

[danski26]

So far no one is willing to put there once fired brass detection skills to the test?? Seems like a simple test for someone who says they have all these ways of telling if brass has been once fired.

[mike in co]

So far no one is willing to put there once fired brass detection skills to the test?? Seems like a simple test for someone who says they have all these ways of telling if brass has been once fired.

i do it for a living..i dont need to "prove" it to anyone........

if you don't trust my skills...don't buy my brass

pretty simple


mike in co

[danski26]

I think you are looking at it the wrong way Mike. Don't take it personaly. Think of it as the constant learning experience of life. My opinion is that no one can tell if brass is only once fired. Educate me. Look at yourself as part of a scientific process. We can set up a reasonable experiment that will give us an idea of the ability of a professional to identify once fired brass. My opinion is not very reliable unless it is proved or disproved through the scientific process. Be open minded. Approach this as Dr Mann approached his experiments a hundered years ago and validated and invalidated many of the principles still in use today.

[DanM]

Semi autos will usually leave a small ejector mark on the case head, so I look for those little scratches and at the inside of the case. After decapping I glance in some of the pockets looking for the pattern left by the primer anvil. A primer pocket that is uniformly dirty has more than one firing. Of course, it could have been cleaned before reloading. Sometimes it is hard to tell.....

[Tom W.]

But what about once fired handloaded brass?
Not all once fired brass is factory loaded the first time.

I for one DO polish my brass after I size it.

[JSnover]

Call me a rank amateur... if all my brass had to be once-fired I'd have to buy a LOT more of it.
All my range pickups are still relatively shiney, undamaged (they haven't been crushed or split), rims and mouths have not been chewed up, the case body doesn't look like it was blown out in a loose chamber. After cleaning them I check to make sure the case head isn't about to separate. If the primer is too easy to remove I scrap the case.
I haven't bought once-fired in a long time but when I did I got it from a reliable company, not from some stranger who has "a ton of it for cheap," but can't say where it came from.

[mike in co]

I think you are looking at it the wrong way Mike. Don't take it personaly. Think of it as the constant learning experience of life. My opinion is that no one can tell if brass is only once fired. Educate me. Look at yourself as part of a scientific process. We can set up a reasonable experiment that will give us an idea of the ability of a professional to identify once fired brass. My opinion is not very reliable unless it is proved or disproved through the scientific process. Be open minded. Approach this as Dr Mann approached his experiments a hundered years ago and validated and invalidated many of the principles still in use today.

no, you are looking at it the wrong way. its my business...how i make my living.

your test, implies i cannot do my job. i do not need your test to validate my "skill".

my customers are my validation....they come back, they buy more, they don't complain of krap in the brass i sell.

your terminology is the issue. i can tell once fired from new, from twice or more fired.

can i tell twice from thrice....probably not, but i ONLY sell once fired.....

just because you cannot, does not mean other cannnot.

i do not pick up brass, i do not buy brass from "public" ranges....i don't have issues selling my once fired brass.

think of it another way...i don't work for you, you are not my boss....i do not answer to you.

just my opinion.
mike in co
THE COLORADO BRASS COMPANY

[mike in co]

i for one do polish my brass after i size it.



me too

[Gelandangan]

thats the kind of statement that cause heartache in the brass sales business......

sorry not funny from my side of the street.

mike in co

Sorry to offend you with my post Mike, I do not meant to be disrespect.
However, I have purchased many "once fired" brass that are definitely not.

My post is an attempt of sarcasm and a voice of my frustration.

There is no way you can distinguish once fired or many times reloaded stuff easily.
Even a really dirty brass, as long as it is not badly corroded would turn out really clean both inside/outside and primer pocket,
after you place them for a few minutes in an ultrasonic bath with 50% water and 50% white vinegar.

I never tumble my brass since I got my ultrasonic cleaner.
All my brass always look brand new and shiny inside out.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

My intent was merely to help new reloaders distinguish usable brass from trash brass because good brass is out there, and the bad .

I mean , look at some of the questions coming in from various aspects. It took me a while before I could feel really comfortable with range pickups. Sure the newcomers could find out a bit about making the judgement.

I don't follow the hijack problem. Conversations rarely are 100 % on track. BvT

[mike in co]

"once fired" is an issue for high pressure rounds only(my opinion). most jacketed rifle.(223/270/308/3006/7mag/300 win mag..popular here in colorado)
9mm/40s&w/ 357 sig/357mag and such.

44 special, /38 special no

44mag45 long colt...well maybe/maybe not

380 /32 autp...no///9 mak no

45 acp...no

in the case of 45acp..i have 1917/1918 still in use, i have friend shooting his dad's 45acp brass(we're 60....do the math).
it a combination of things....how does the reloader treat the brass, and what is the load.

you can shoot 45acp 230/800fps brass for a life time..IF you dont bell the krap out of the case.

if you pick up brass and question what you have.....scrap it and use the money to buy brass you trust.

mike in co

[Shiloh]

I shoot myrifle brass until the necks split. It is many, many, times fired. I have .38 special and .45 ACP brass that is 30 plus years old. When it splits, it goes in the scrap brass bucket.

Shiloh

[Bullshop Junior]

Look at the base. Reloaded brass will show a ring at the bottom most of the time where the bottom of the sizing die stops.

one fired brass will not have that.

[Frank46]

Don't know if this helps, but federal has a sealant on most of their ammo. If it is still present on both primer and in the groove between primer and outer wall of the primer pocket I would think its a safe bet its once fired. Frank

[lwknight]

When you find gobs of brass on the ground and a pile of new never weathered ammo boxes in the trash, its a good indicator that some rich kids were having a blast.

[danski26]

I've bought brass and other things from you in the past Mike. I have no issues with your products. I agree ("once fired" is an issue for high pressure rounds only my opinion) I understand what you are saying about it being your buisness.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

If I pick up a piece of brass and the primer has leaked, no matter how good it looks otherwise, it's trash to me. BvT

[lwknight]

All yellow brass is worth $1.50 per pound. Scrapmetal.

[Cadillo]

Cadillo,

Thank you for your comment. If you are willing to take a "pepsi" challenge. I will send you 5 cases. 4 will be once fired or new and one will be many fired. I challenge you to pick out the many fired piece. PM me with your address and we will post the findings here. Should be fun! Baron.....I'll extend the same offer to you because you started this thread.

Also....no micrometers allowed. Just what you would have with you at the range whe you pick up the brass or your at home instpection techniques.


You have entirely too much free time on your hands. :groner:

[Bullshop Junior]

So far no one is willing to put there once fired brass detection skills to the test?? Seems like a simple test for someone who says they have all these ways of telling if brass has been once fired.
I will take the challenge!

[Bullshop Junior]

cadillo,

thank you for your comment. If you are willing to take a "pepsi" challenge. I will send you 5 cases. 4 will be once fired or new and one will be many fired. I challenge you to pick out the many fired piece. Pm me with your address and we will post the findings here. Should be fun! Baron.....i'll extend the same offer to you because you started this thread.

Also....no micrometers allowed. Just what you would have with you at the range whe you pick up the brass or your at home instpection techniques.
me me!

[Fishslayer]

I consider most brass that I pick up at the range "Once Fired" - a re-loader would not have left it behind! :)
(My theory)

AC

That actually makes pretty good sense.:p

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Be careful Fishslayer. There is some really bad brass laying around my club's range and......we have a new threat too , the salvage expert, scrounging everything for the pure scrap value. BvT

[S.R.Custom]

I don't worry too much whether brass actually is once fired, figuring that if it looks good enough to be once fired, it's good enough to be reloaded.

I've learned, though, that any previously fired rifle brass is pretty useless for wildcat case-forming.

[Daryl]

thier call on the ammo you shoot at thier range. they inspect all incomming ammo.
two of the ranges do not allow any exposed lead.......so no cast boolits.....
that would be a significant part of reloaded ammo........
again, because of insurance...their call, no arguments.

ohhh, by the way a customer on thier rifle range took in a single round of ap to see how it shot. it shot right thru the back interior wall, thru the bullet collector, and into an exhaust fan......his bill was something close to $10,000.


mike in co


I would hate to be their lawyer or insurance company. Many business people actually cause themselves trouble by "over involving" themselves. So, if the range prohibits anything but factory, they probably have some leg to stand on and have a claim against someone who injures others because of a violation. But, as soon as my employee starts inspecting and gives the "ok", then my liability has really increased. I could just hear the attorneys in that deposition!! "So, Mr. Rangeowner, you hired qualified, expert ammo inspectors to do this very important job and insure the safety and protection of everyone else on the range?? Where is his certification and degree from??" Yikes.

[Bullshop Junior]

I am still interested in taking the brass challenge, PM me with details.

[mike in co]

I would hate to be their lawyer or insurance company. Many business people actually cause themselves trouble by "over involving" themselves. So, if the range prohibits anything but factory, they probably have some leg to stand on and have a claim against someone who injures others because of a violation. But, as soon as my employee starts inspecting and gives the "ok", then my liability has really increased. I could just hear the attorneys in that deposition!! "So, Mr. Rangeowner, you hired qualified, expert ammo inspectors to do this very important job and insure the safety and protection of everyone else on the range?? Where is his certification and degree from??" Yikes.

NO SIR MY EMPLOYEES check for steel, exposed lead, and what looks to be reloaded ammo. they do not "ok" the customers ammo. we only check for complaince to our range rules, not the customers choice of ammo.

[edsmith]

I am with Shiloh, I shoot my brass untll it splits,I have never had any trouble with it. I shoot .223,.357,38 special,45 colt,45acp,308,7mm mauser, I have been reloading for 56 years. many of my brass cases have been reloaded as least 20 or more times. I can not see why if a case has been fired more than twice,it isn't any good.if the primer don't fall out,it's good to go.

[Alchemist]

Yeah, I mean they either have die marks on them or they don't. How many guys size cases and then polish them after?? enjoy Mike

Me for one...

I tumble dirty brass to keep dies from getting scratched, then after sizing to remove lube. And from other threads I've posted in, I'm not the only one who does it that way.

[dale2242]

I do exactly the same as Alchemist, clean to remove dirt and after sizing to remove lube...dale

[mike in co]

I do exactly the same as Alchemist, clean to remove dirt and after sizing to remove lube...dale

me too...see post 28...


mike in co

[tonyjones]

I have no problem with anyone picking up brass at the range. It's your hobby and your business. For my purposes I never pick up brass except to look at it and then discard it. I want new brass from factory ammo or my loads with factory new brass. That way it is fire formed to my rifles chamber. I resize minimally to maintain good ammo to chamber fit. The best accuracy will result when concentricity about the bore axis is maintained. This is why the bench rest guys shoot tight neck chambers and neck turn their cases so there is about .001" neck clearance around a chambered cartridge. It also helps if your chamber is close to SAAMI minimum specs. Loading this way I get maximum case life for the cartridge I'm shooting. Typically, my primer pockets loosen before necks split or cases stretch.
I realize that shooting a lot of ammo is great fun for a lot of folks. I go about my shooting a bit more slowly and try to shoot bugholes.
Regards to all,
Tony

[ETG]

When you find gobs of brass on the ground and a pile of new never weathered ammo boxes in the trash, its a good indicator that some rich kids were having a blast.

LOL - I look for the dudes with deadlocks that hold their pistols sideways and leave all their **** laying on the ground - guaranteed it's never been reloaded by a hobbyist - maybe commercially reloaded.

[bearcove]

I don't worry too much whether brass actually is once fired, figuring that if it looks good enough to be once fired, it's good enough to be reloaded.

I've learned, though, that any previously fired rifle brass is pretty useless for wildcat case-forming.

I use once fired R-P 30-06 for 338-06 and 35 whelen. Works great! once fired 30-30 to 7-30 waters and 6.5 bullberry improved. The 6.5 needs to be fire formed to 7-30 first.

[Cadillo]

I thought that we were past this!

[evan price]

Magtech/CBC brass from the factory has a sort of "V" shaped mark impressed on the primer. If you see that mark, and even with a strong firing pin dent it can still be seen, then you know it is 1X fired.

As far as pistol brass, heck I don't bother sorting by headstamps let alone how many firings. I lose autopistol brass before it splits 90% of the time. As far as revolver, run it until you see mouth starting to split then chuck it.