Hunting with cast?

[dk17hmr]

Im new to casting so I will ask dumb question about it every now and then. I dont cast a bullet for hunting purposes yer jsut for plinkin with 38 special and 45 acp, but what makes a good cast hunting bullet?

Do you want to drop them in water or let them air cool?
Only use pure lead or do WW work?
What shape/style works best?

I also shoot jacket hollow points out of my .45 at close to 1100fps which I plan on carring on a bear hunt coming up this fall for back up because I am going to use my bow as a primary. But if I use my 45 on whitetail deer, which is perfectly legal in MI also I beleive it is ethical if I go after them with a bow hunting state of mind get them in close and make sure they are broad side, would cast or jacketed be better for a 20 yard or closer shot.

DK

[Bass Ackward]

Would cast or jacketed be better for a 20 yard or closer shot.
DK


Dk,

For 20 yards back to 10 we throw rocks. At ten, you must use a knife.

Lets see .... for a large deer you have about 3/4" of hair, hide, and bone on the way in, maybe 14" of air until you start making your way out with another 3/4" of bone, hide, and hair on the way out. Think a 45 would penetrate 1 1/2"? Try a gallon milk jug filled with water and see if the bullet stops behind it. That's about 8". Hint: Make sure that there is nothin behind it that .... you like.

I feel pretty comfortable that it can do the job with anything as long as the meplat is wide enough. (Just in case I am wrong, carry a rock in your pocket for back up. Folders can be a PIA to open when you are runnin. :grin: )

[44man]

I would be careful choosing the correct jacketed bullet for bear. Some open so fast you will really just make one mad. Others will open slow and penetrate deep. I have been disappointed in penetration on deer with a lot of them and switched to a heavy hard boolit with a large meplat for all of my hunting a long time ago. I would want a boolit that will completely penetrate a bear from almost any angle. Water dropped WW's would be good but I do make mine harder for hunting. The .45 does not need to expand. The LBT type of nose is the best and a weight of 300 to 335 gr's will do anything needed.
Since you are asking on the cast boolit site, what answer did you expect?

[Bret4207]

If you were refering to carrying your 45ACP then a 225-250 gr flat nosed or SWC will work on deer pretty well, especially if you hunt the with a "bow hunting mindset" as you mentioned. The 300 + jobbies are for the 45 Colt, 454 etc. At 45ACP velocity either water quenched WW or air cooled WW should work fine, which ever feeds more reliably. Finding a good feeding SWC or FN boolit that feeds is you first concern. Guns vary and some guys have to fudge around a bit to get the OAL, feed ramp and magazine in sync. Half the fun is experimenting to find out what works for you in your gun.

[MGySgt]

Just my 2 cents worth:

RCBS 45 - 230 CM. Hard to beat the meplate size in a 45ACP.

I drive it with Unique in a S&W 625 - I would not hesitate to go against any Black Bear with that load. 988 FPS - Of course I WILL NOT shoot that load in any of my autos - it is just a wee bit hot.

Drew

[Dale53]

The "typical" handgun has power limitations. This applies up through the .44 magnum. expanding bullets use energy and because of the expansion up front (increasing resistance when penetrating) they tend to NOT penetrate enough. This depends on many factors, some bullets open up fast, some slow, and most are not terribly dependable at most handgun velocities.

A hard cast bullet with a wide meplat is completely reliable. Driven at .44 magnum velocities a bullet of 250 grs to 300 grains will completely penetrate large deer and small bear from ANY direction. I, too, learned early on that a hard cast, wide meplat bullet is THE answer. A good example of this type of bullet is Lee's c430 310 gr RF GC bullet for the .44 calibers. Lee also has one for the .45 Colt (C452-300-RF) and also the .452-255-RF.

You should stay with the standard weights with your 1911. For deer I would go with Lee's 452-200-RF at about 1000 fps (stay within proper pressure limits) but for bear you might want to go with Lee's 452-230 -TC for better penetration. Bear, even black bear, have very heavy bones for their size and the 1911 is really not the best tool for the job. I would much prefer the .44 magnum with a 310gr bullet or the heavy loaded Ruger .45 Colt with a 300 gr bullet.

Keep in mind that Lee is not the only people to offer suitable moulds for the bullet you need. It is easier to recommend a variety of bullets on one page for you to examine.

The important points is hard cast (ww's are hard enough", a WIDE meplat (that is the part of the bullet that does the work) and enough weight for penetration. Black bears are tough animals. I have only harvested one but I had the opportunity to be in on at least 35 bear (more like 50) autopsies and watched closely at the damage done and by what. Gave me LOTS of insight in to the nature of this worthy game animal.

Dale53

[44man]

Dale, well said. The Lee boolits are great and I use each of them that you mentioned.

[TedH]

I use air cooled wheel weights for deer with great satisfaction. Have not killed a bear with a cast bullet yet, but I would probably want them a bit harder to ensure good penetration and use the widest meplat I could.

[cherok9878]

dk17humr,
I have used the lee 452-200-RF for a while in a .45 ACP. National Match barrel is throated and magazine is set up for Wad cutters. Feeds and functions without any problems at all. Have taken three white tail's with the bullet, all under fifty yds, one required a second shot, full penetration on all, side to side. Turkey's fall dead in their tracks with little tissue damage. These are pure WW with a home made lube of unknown content. Older gentelman cast these for me a while back and before I run out I will have a mould. Just my opinion on what works for me, hope this is helpful, Wouldnt use a 200 grn boolit on a bear unless it was an emergency..........larry

[dk17hmr]

I agree guys I dont plan on using my 45 unless I have to, they way I see it is 8 rounds of 45 is going to be better then one arrow, granted I need to hit the target. Im pretty damn good with my bow 5" group at 60 yards, and 3 robin hoods to date...but there is always the chance of something going wrong and the bear comes up the tree. I hadnt planned on using cast for that, I shoot Hornady 200 grain XTP's at close to make with Bluedot and get good to alright groups, they are undoubtable an ass kicker. I might give cast a shot for deer though.

My .45 mold is a Lee .452-230 TL Round nose I dont know if this would be good or if I should find somethign like a SWC.

DK

[44man]

I think if you insist on the .45 ACP with 200 gr XTP's it might be a good idea to just leave the gun home. I had the idea that you also had a .45 Colt. Sorry I was confused by not reading your post carefully.
Those XTP's are made to open fast at a low velocity and would probably flatten on a bear's skull. They would definitely not penetrate deep enough in the body to stop a bear intent on eating you.
As cherok suggested, the Lee 452-200-RF or the .452-255-RF, cast hard would do you better. I would look at the heavier boolit, even at a reduced velocity, they will be more effective.

[waksupi]

The XTP's are for social purposes, not hunting. Stick with a cast bullet for any game you may encounter. You will be much, much happier with the results.

[buck1]

I must agree, I would not use the XTPs on Bear..........Buck

[StarMetal]

Whoa hold up. I think there is misinformation here about the Hornady XTP line of bullets. Let's read this first from Hornady:

1) Controlled Expansion
XTP™ bullets are famous for their ability to expand reliably across a wide range of velocities. The XTP Magnum™ bullet was specially built to withstand incredible velocities, and still deliver controlled expansion and weight retention. Special features in the nose facilitate and control expansion on impact. Others, like the cannelure, ensure the jacket and core remain locked solid during expansion.

2) Terminal Penetration
XTP™ and XTP Magnum™ bullets consistently deliver the deep, terminal penetration needed for one-shot kills.

Okay in number one notice where the XTP Magnum bullet was specially built to withstand incredible velocities, and still deliver controlled expansion, etc. And in number two....consistently deliver the deep, terminal penetration.....

Of all the current factory jacketed hollow point revolver/pistol bullet (Speer Gold Dot, Remington Sabre, PMC Starfire, Federal Hydro-shok, etc.) the Hornady XTP line is the least expanding.

I read a serious technical report where a team of shooters when to a slaughter house with a 1911 45acp and all the current factory jacketed hollow point ammo for it. They got permission to shoot live steers head on from 20 to 25 feet away and the steer all weighed between 1300 and 1700 pounds. First let me say that every steer shot died from one shot between the eyes with each brand of bullet. I won't go into detail about the other bullets, but the one and only bullet to make it out of the brain cavity, and in through the skull, down the neck and lodge in the shoulder....was the Hornady XTP. At the end of their test they said the only thing in personal protection that they would use a Hornady XTP bullet in, is if they had to shoot through a windshield or door first to hit the assailant. They also said that Hornady makes it clear that the XTP is not a violent, rapid, and low velocity exploding bullet like the others I named. I've shot alot of Hornady XTP's in 45 caliber both very hot and low velocity. Hornady is right, they don't expand like an explosive varmint bullet.

I've said this before, black bear aren't noways as hard to put down as a Grizz. In fact I don't think they are any harder to put down then a whitetail deer. Down here in TN the black bears harvests range in 300 pound and over to over 600 pounds. Number one rifle used is a 30-30.

If I were picking a jacketed bullet for black bear, my number choice WOULD BE the Hornady XTP.

If any of you fellows out there have Hornady XTP's, shoot them into a wet newspaper medium or some comparable medium, and compare them to the other brands mentioned and see for yourself. In fact the first test I did with XTP's I wasn't impressed with the little expansion and called Hornady and they me what I'm telling you. They aren't super explosive bullets.

Joe

[woody1]

[QUOTE=StarMetal]

If I were picking a jacketed bullet for black bear, my number choice WOULD BE the Hornady XTP.


The point here is, you shouldn't! At the velocity we're talking about, any expansion will be at the expense of penetration. As to black bear being no harder to kill than whitetail...hogwash! Especially if he's already been stuck with an arrow. Regards, Woody

[StarMetal]

Woody,

What are you talking about, a Hornady XTP out of a 45 acp 1911 went through a 1300 to 1700 pound steers head, down his neck, and into his shoulder, and you call that penetration at the expense of expansion. We also have another poster here that said he wouldn't be afraid to go after any blackbear around with the RCBS 230 CM at 988 fps out of his 625 Smith and you think blackbear are hard to kill, apparently MgySgt don't. ANY wounded animal is tougher to bring down then one that's not.

I also was addressing the misconception of the XTP line of bullets, not necessarily for the original posters statement. But if I were going to carry his 45acp for back up and it had to be with a factory jacketed hollowpoint bullet, and I wanted penetration, it would be the XTP....apparently you haven't shot very many XTP's.

This isn't a flame or pissing contest, it's that you and I just disagree which is fine.

Joe

[dk17hmr]

I have done a test with my XTP load just to see if it would be any good if I need to use them in the hallway or just opt for one of my AR-15's. I was shooting into a box made of partical board with garbage bags in it filled with water. I fired half dozen XTPs into it with my full power loads and all I got was penatration, the nose was deformed a little, not like the XTP's my dad loads for his 9mm those open up nicely, but my 200 grain went close to 20 inches into the water after shooting through the 3/4 inch partical board from 10 yards. I dont think I will have a problem with penatration. I can always load the mag with a FMJ after the XTP for extra insurance.

DK

[Bass Ackward]

My experience with Hornady XTPs has been that they are a very accuracte bullet and that they hang together. I have four or five 240 grain 44s around here that were recovered from reasonably small white tail deer. Some were from a wheeler at 1300 fps muzzle and about 1650 from a rifle.

After I recovered these, all in the same year, I switched because of the lack of penetration. But they do open pretty though.

[waksupi]

My point of view is, I just don't trust jacketed bullets anymore. I know I can rely on cast, to do the job. I do know that some of the new bullets do well in repeatable performance, I just prefer premium cast.

[44man]

Bass said the magic words--Recovered from small whitetails.
The XTP is made in so many weights and variations that, like any other jacketed bullet, must be chosen with care.
I have killed deer with the 240 gr and penetration was not as good as claimed but the 300 gr is super. Maybe the 200 gr for the ACP is made tough, I don't know but I am always leery of the light weight XTP's. My friend insisted the 180 gr .44 was a great bullet. He has had miserable results with penetration, deer recovery and hit a leg bone once that shattered but stopped the bullet. A second shot stopped the deer. I helped open the deer and the first bullet never broke into the rib cage. He was just shooting them too fast thinking high velocity was the answer. After watching me drop deer after deer with hard cast, he now comes over to use my moulds.
The velocity the XTP is driven at has to be regulated for the weight and construction of the bullet. The light ones work better if they are slowed down.
Handgun bullets do not kill with massive energy transfer and tissue destruction like a rifle, (and that is debatable or they would not be making the great premium rifle bullets that do not shed weight.) they kill by cutting a large hole as deep as possible, preferably, all the way through the animal.
When a light XTP is driven too fast, they start to open on contact. Since the weight is not there, they stop fast
For target and silhouette, there is no bullet made as accurate as the XTP's. Hornady has always been my choice with any gun for top accuracy, rifle or handgun and they are the only factory brand you will find in my bullet box.
Joe, I believe you and I bet the bullets were shot at the proper velocity for their construction.

[44man]

I forgot to mention that unlike the jacketed bullet, a hard cast boolit can be driven as fast or slow as you want without effecting performance.
Hey Joe, read Bucks post on bullet testing.

[StarMetal]

I had bought a 44mag Smith when I first moved into Ohio. I wanted to get some 240 gr XTP's for my load, but nobody had them, not even 200 grs. I said what the heck, it's a 44 mag, I'll try the 180 grs. I was in my treestand and it was doe season. A big grain and soy bean fed doe appeared 35 yards away. I shot her at the base of her neck where it joins the shoulder. At the shot she did a flip butt over head and lay dead. The bullet went through sixteen inches of solid meat and not sure if it hit any bones. Left an exit hole about 3 inches. I was impressed. I seen deer not go down that good with good shot placement from rifles.

Later on I called Hornady to talk about it and the 180 gr XTP. They said "What, you used a 180 gr XTP?" I told them yeah and they said they didn't reccomend it for deer. Then they asked me alot of questions. The load, velocity if I knew (I did I have chronograph), the distance, where the bullet struck the deer, the damage, did it pass through, the exit hole size, etc. They said I was the first customer to call and claim a deer with the 180 gr XTP and will from now on reccomend it, but as on the light side.

What's this say? This says that one persons result can vastly be different from anothers. I personally don't know anyone that kept a 240 gr 44 mag bullet in a deer from any manufacturers brand, even alot of blackbear they zipped through. I guess it depends on circumstances.

All in all I'm just trying to say the XTP magnum bullets (not 9mm and lighter caliber) are not designed as super explosive bullets.

Joe

[Bucks Owin]

Here's a photo of some testing I did with the .44 Hornady 300 gr XTP in an 8.375" M29-2 with a velocity of around 1150 fps....

The "undamaged" bullet was fired into an oak block (with the grain) at 25 yds. The wood apparently clogged the hollowpoint and there was zero expansion. I could reload this bullet again. Penetration was around 11"....

The pieces flanking that bullet were fired into my funky bullet trap at 5 feet. (I got kinda wet!) It consisted of 10 water filled sandwhich size ziplock bags backed by 3 feet of wet sawdust. The jacket shed in the water and the core penetrated only 18" into the sawdust....

The photo of the demolished bullet trap was hit by the 310 gr Lee boolit out of my 10" Blackhawk at 1270 fps at a distance of about 10 feet. (I didn't get AS wet!) It penetrated 10 ziplock bags of water, 6" of wet newsprint, 3 feet of wet sawdust and exited the 2" cedar back of the trap.....

Which bullet would I use on something with teeth and claws? I'll give you 3 guesses and the first 2 don't count!

FWIW,

Dennis :Fire:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/BucksOwin/recoveredXTP.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/BucksOwin/trapafter.jpg

[StarMetal]

Dennis,

You're big mistake is that water test. Water can penetrate every nook and cranny no matter how small, that's why it gets between the jack and the lead core and really makes the bullet self destruct. Water is a terrible test of bullets, it will almost nearly destroy everyone of of them.

As far as teeth and claws, depends on who owns them.....excluding grizz and coming down the food chain from there I wouldn't fear any animal with a 45 or 44 mag with Hornady XTP's. Come on, think about it, big dangerous african game isn't hunted with jacketed hollowpoints, they are hunted with jacketed solids or solids. When you understand totally what all bullets designs can do you also understand what you can hunt and not hunt with them.

I love casting and shooting/hunting with cast bullets, but if you fellows think cast bullets ARE THE BEST BULLETS in the world you are sadly mistaken. I use both cast and jacketed, just depends what I'm doing. I sure as heck wouldn't have wanted to fight WWI, WWII, Vietnam, or the current stuff going on with cast bullets only. All bullets have their pros and cons. Like I said, I love casting and shooting cast bullets, but I'm not narrow minded enough to think that they are the best under all applications. [smilie=1:

Joe

[Bucks Owin]

Dennis,

You're big mistake is that water test. Water can penetrate every nook and cranny no matter how small, that's why it gets between the jack and the lead core and really makes the bullet self destruct. Water is a terrible test of bullets, it will almost nearly destroy everyone of of them.

As far as teeth and claws, depends on who owns them.....excluding grizz and coming down the food chain from there I wouldn't fear any animal with a 45 or 44 mag with Hornady XTP's. Come on, think about it, big dangerous african game isn't hunted with jacketed hollowpoints, they are hunted with jacketed solids or solids. When you understand totally what all bullets designs can do you also understand what you can hunt and not hunt with them.

I love casting and shooting/hunting with cast bullets, but if you fellows think cast bullets ARE THE BEST BULLETS in the world you are sadly mistaken. I use both cast and jacketed, just depends what I'm doing. I sure as heck wouldn't have wanted to fight WWI, WWII, Vietnam, or the current stuff going on with cast bullets only. All bullets have their pros and cons. Like I said, I love casting and shooting cast bullets, but I'm not narrow minded enough to think that they are the best under all applications. [smilie=1:

Joe

Are you kidding me Joe?

Would the XTP come apart on a grizzly? Would it expand at all? At what velocity?

The 310 Lee I couldn't recover as it penetrated everything I put in front of it!

XTP? Not for me!

Dennis

(Personally, I'd pick the Sierra 300 JSP over the XTP boolit for big game. I think the 180/200 XTP would be a good "social" projectile in .44 cal FWIW)

[BruceB]

I'm coming down on Joe's side on this, concerning the XTP.

The reason is that on another Board or two, there's a long-time guide/outfitter by the name of J. J. Hack. I prersonally know some folks I trust who've vouched for him as the genuine article. He's been in on the killing of several hundred bears over the years, and has a VERY interesting opinion on the subject of handguns vs Ursus.

In a fairly-recent and extensive expressing of this opinion, he sees two basic situatioins involving bears, and they are

-Hunting, and

-Defensive.

Now, get this: when the shooter is hunting, and able to pick shots at a basically un-alarmed animal, Hack strongly favors the heavy cast bullet due its ability to penetrate and break bone en route. Instant death is not as critical a priority as it is with defensive shooting against bears.

HOWEVER, when carrying a handgun for defensive use against bears, Mr. Hack equally-strongly favors the ....guess what.... Hornady XTP in the heavier weights for the caliber. This is partly because most defensive shots are from the front, where not much penetration is required, but mostly because his experience shows the XTP can be depended-on for deep penetration WHILE TEARING UP EVERYTHING in its path. This destruction of organs and other items in the bullet path leads to quicker death than the long-and-narrow wound trail of the cast bullet. At muzzle-flash range, this is surely a desireable quality to have in one's bullet.

As I said, the opinions above belong to Mr. Hack. All my bear-shooting has been done with rifles at extreme close range....not over thirty feet for most, and one at a foot or two off the muzzle. The Hornady bullet is NOT a fragile design like many anti-personnel bullets out there. It was designed and intended for deeper penetration and slower opening than most hollowpoints. Again, if I was back in bear country, I'd take JJ's thoughts very seriously, and would definitely load the heaviest-for-caliber XTP I could find. All my years in such country saw me carrying cast-boolits for my bear-defense .44s, but I'm not too old to adapt to experience....

[StarMetal]

My Heart!!! My Heart!!! Remember how old Redd Foxx use to say that on is TV show when his son shocked him with something. I can't believe someone sided up with me, not just any old someone, but BruceB who I admire and have the highest respect for.

I know I made some harsh statements about cast bullets. I do love them and they sure made alot of old military rifles shootable again, not only for the reason of obsolete ammo, but for oversize bores that even the original military ammo didn't fit right or shoot worth the darn. But back on topic. I've shot Starfire, Hydra-shoks, Silver Tips, Gold Dots...and a host of others out of guns like 32 acps, 38's, 357's, 44 mag, 45 LC...and more...and it became very apparent to me that the XTP magnum wasn't the same as those, it held together more...I was expecting explosive results. Then I read up on it more, talked to Hornady. I also understood XTP to stand for Xtreme Terminal Performance, which doesn't mean explosive. As far as the jacket shedding there isn't a bullet made that doesn't have a bonded jacket/core, that isn't going to separate. Even the interlock rifle bullets will shed under certain circumstances.

Bruce recounted Mr J. J. Hacks theory on the difference between an unaware sedate animal and one that is attacking you (or wounded and attacking you) and I stated that in a post reply to Woody1. Now I know we're talking about bullets for handguns and I also know that most of you would pick the hard cast for a big grizz attack, but let's change things and say you have a 375 H&H magnum and that same grizz is coming at you close, would you opt for factory jacketed soft points or would you choose a hard cast .375 bullet? I know what I'd take.

Joe

[44man]

Bruce said the magic word---XTP in the heavier weights, which is what I have been saying forever! If you go back through every single post I have made, you will see this is true.

[StarMetal]

44man,

Yes you did say that. I also said XTP magnum bullets, which means the ones made for magnum handguns....not the small caliber, nor the larger caliber light weights. Also let me point out in that steer shooting test the bullet by Hornady used in the test was a 230 gr Hornady XTP, not a 200 gr. I know you didn't mention it was 200 gr, the original poster did. Maybe a XTP doesn't have to been hard or tougher for 45acp velocities, after all that 45acp 230 bullet out of a five inch barrel in the velocity range of 850 penetrated totally through the steers skull, neck, and lodged in the shoulder. My God!, how much more penetration would you (not you specifically) want? I'd bet a hard cast 230 gr 45acp bullet of any configuration would have done much better or even as good. If the fellow has to carry a 45acp with jacketed bullets, I'd opt for the 230 gr Hornady XTP, not of 200 gr of any manufacture, nor a 230 gr Remington Sabre, Starfire, Silvertip, Hydra-shok, or Gold Dot.

Nobody dare answer the 375 H&H mag rifle question yet I noticed.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

You clearly have to understand what you "see" from the results "you" get and adjust accordingly. Take a 55 grain Hornady Vmax at 3300 fps from a 223. I have never seen one of these exit from a ground hog at any range from 50 out to 400. And still two deer kills through the neck / muscle area at the shoulder junction and both bullets exited without any large hole to indicate expansion.

One of our customers got exactly 4" of penetration from a 340 Wby on a brownie using Nosler Partitions. And we all know what reputation they have. Guide ended up killing the brownie using his 458WM. The customer was so scared, he couldn't even work the bolt.

In other words, unless a bullet is solid copper, there are applications where everything is apt to be suspect under some set of conditions.

Now my favorite 44 bullets ARE Hornady's, but the 240 XTPs won't penetrate at any strike velocity. One of the bullets was a broad side shot where the bullet was recovered in the off shoulder plate which is pretty flimsy. In fairness, one other was a Texas heart shot. Details of the others are too long forgotten to mention details. All I remember is that a clear decision was made to change and I have never been sorry. The 265 grain Hornady is my all time wheeler favorite and a devastator under any conditions. Great compromise between velocity, expansion, and penetration. This is Hornady's best kept secret for 44s. IMO.

[StarMetal]

Bass,

65 gr VMAX Hornadys basically won't penetrate a milk jug full of water at 100 yards out of my 7 twist AR 15 or my 12 twist Model 70 Varminter. Far as I'm concerned the 55 gr VMAX's are mice loads and the 65 gr VMAX's are squirrel loads. Buckshot will tell you about the dog I had to dispatch (killed my goat) with a 100 yard shot with the 65 grainer right behind the right shoulder broadside at 100 yards with the AR 15. Dog went 1 1/8 miles. Left a spray blood pattern (because it was coming out of his nostrils) starting at 50 yards from where shot. I found him, not a trace of anything concerning being bullet shot. No exit hole, no blood, no blood from mouth or nostrils, couldn't even find the entrance hole. Probably would have to been shaved of all fur to find the entrance hole. After that reacted the shot except with 3 one gal milkjug full of water. That's when I discovered they wouldn't penetrate the fisrt jug. I recovered what was left of the jacket and core, maybe about as much as a BB. Definately too explosive for larger critters then praire dogs. I've had better results out of that AR15 with 55 FMJ's because of the 7 twist.

Joe

[44man]

That is why I agreed with you. The right weight bullet at the proper velocity makes the XTP a great bullet. Choosing the wrong one and driving it too fast is the problem. You know as well as I do that high velocity in the handgun doesn't do anything to kill faster.
Have you noticed how many guys push every bullet as fast as they can without regard to accuracy or penetration?
I understood what you were saying but you left out the little important things that would confuse some new shooters. You did correct it and I am happy to see it.
Bucks is also correct in what he says due to trying to drive the lighter XTP's too fast. Even the 300 gr, .44, has it's limits. They will work but they will never equal the hard cast for penetration.
It's a very touchy subject trying to figure if your XTP bullet and load will do what is asked in a crisis situation. I think I would rather give the bear a sore ass when the boolit exits after going all the way through. He might spin to bite at the hole so you can get more shots off. Think of all of the veins and arteries in the length of a bear.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass,

65 gr VMAX Hornadys basically won't penetrate a milk jug full of water at 100 yards out of my 7 twist AR 15 or my 12 twist Model 70 Varminter. Far as I'm concerned the 55 gr VMAX's are mice loads and the 65 gr VMAX's are squirrel loads.


Joe,

Well, you got my point. Can it be trusted that a 55 grain V-max is a deer bullet? No. But both deer died like a handgranade went off. And without any expansion! But no bone was hit either. Whether it is too much or not enough weight, whether it is jacketed or cast, you have to understand what it is that you are seeing to adjust accordingly.

You can't say bullet "A" is a peaceful bullet, and bullet "B" is a hormonal bullet. It just all depends. One thing you can bet your ass on though, too little gun is simply too little gun no matter what you ask of it. Overkill is a term that permeates society today, but over kill is my watch word. Always carry enough gun not to depend on bullet specifics or errors in judgement .... for the task at hand and you will never be sorry.

[StarMetal]

Whoa! Too many folks agreeing with today. I must be doing something wrong. After all I got that aggressive posting habit....am I getting too soft guys????[smilie=1::drinks:

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

After all I got that aggressive posting habit....am I getting too soft guys????[smilie=1::drinks:

Joe


Naaaaaa.

Your problem was not disagreeing. It was reading and comprehension. :grin:

OK, your turn.

[Bucks Owin]

Maybe my XTPs were just "run of the mill" boolits instead of the "Magnum" variety....

The box doesn't say "magnum" anywhere, just "XTP Pistol Bullets" on top and "#44280 .430 Hollow Point XTP" on the end....

But the thing that spooks me is zero expansion in one medium but the bullet comes apart in another. Velocity too high at 1150 fps? The hardcast 310 was going 1270 fps and the water didn't faze it...(apparently)

Head on shot on a charging grizzly? Wouldn't it be better to use a bullet that'll put a hole in it's skull, maybe break it's neck and exit it's ******* than one that'll "tear things up" but who knows how far it'll penetrate?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a cast bullet "nut" and when I go hunting with my .270 it's loaded with 130 gr Nosler Partitions. Same with my .243 or .338 Win mag....

But when it comes to handguns, I think I'll depend on the "long leaky hole" at the highest possible velocity. Why would I want to slow down to, for instance, .44 Spl velocity to make some "controlled expansion" bullet work better? Or at the opposite extreme use a bullet that has to be going say 1200 fps or it won't expand at all? What if the shot is a long one?

I dunno about the "magnum" XTP but the at least I KNOW what the 310 hard cast boolit will do and that is penetrate for a loooonnnnngggg ways and break any bone in it's path.....

FWIW,

Dennis

[StarMetal]

Well we all know Ross Seyfred, his writing that is. I think pretty highly of him and to me I feel he was more of a technical writer, kinda like Rick Jamison, then a story teller. He was into large caliber big revolvers as we all know too. Okay...he preached hard hard cast bullet, punch a hole through the animal. Well as alot of hunters found out you have to be a great shot and a Navajo certified tracker, because most the time an animal shot with a hard cast bullet isn't going down anytime soon AND apparently Ross got flooded with a bunch of letters saying so. SO, he changed his thinking and started preaching expanding jacketed bullets for deer class animals. He agreed that hard cast just punched holes and what was need to stop the animal quicker was an expanding jacketed bullet. We've talked about this in the forum. This is a known story and fact. I even had an example of this. Load was a RCBS 255 SWC hard cast and over enough powder to give it an honest 1600 fps out of my Winchester 94 rifle. I shot a button buck with it about 35 yards away facing me at just a slight angle. I hit him right below the neck and above the legs in the center of his chest. At the shot he humped up, spun around and high tailed it out of there. I was shocked. Alot of hours later I found him dead quite some ways off. There was no blood trail. I found him my making circles and then larger circles. The bullet hit exactly where I stated and it came out high on his right ham near the tail base just about. The bullet traveled through his entire body. You know it had to center the lungs and I'm sure it got the top of the heart or not. He was pretty much on a parallel horizontal plane with my bullet. Now how much better could you ask for. A big flat nose SWC at 1600 fps and the deer runs off? That was it for me. I then switched back to jacketed. The only gun I hunt whitetail deer with now is my 45-70 with the RCBS 405 gr cast of a WW's with some lead added and not hardened. Nary a deer has escaped that load and the bullet does expand, I recovered one.

If I'm going to be hunting grizz it's going to be with a big rifle with jacketed ammo, I don't see a need for a back up handgun then, but just so I don't get post about that I'll carry a 45LC loaded very very hot with a big weight bullet in a very very strong revolver. If could only have a revolver to hunt grizzly it's going to be a 454 heavy weight jacketed bullet.

Joe

[MGySgt]

I just checked my Hornady Reloading manual. In the front of Vol 1 they have a bullet chart. The 300 gr 44 XTP is reccomended for MEDIUM sized game. I am not sure where Black Bear fall in the range between medium and large game. But anything that can eat me I would put in Large DANGEROUS game and Hornady recommends this bullet for medium game.

Yes, I would, if I had to, use my 625 with the RCBS 45 230 CM at 988 if I HAD too. It would not be my first choice of weapons. I would probably use my 1895 Marlin GG in 45/70 with a 450 gr cast of about 10 or 11 BRN. at about 1500 FPS, or the Hornady 350 FP interlock at 1800+

The original post was what would you use in a 45ACP, hence my choice of the RCBS boolit. Big flatpoint, accurate and enough velocity to get the job done at close range and 6 out real quick. Maybe it will keep the BB busy enough while I load 6 more in a moon clip!

Just MHO .

Drew

[StarMetal]

I dissected some 44 mag bullets. From the left: the Hornay 180 gr XTP (the type I killed the big doe with up in Ohio), factory Winchester 240 Silvertip, factory Remington 240 flatnose, and a Hornady 250 gr 45 caliber XTP shot into my test medium using my Old Model Ruger Blackhawk. I included a second picture of that 45 slug at a different angle, as I think it's impressive and performed impressive.

Joe

[waksupi]

Joe, your hunting results,is exactly why I always autopsy an animal after the kill. I've always had good wound channels with cast, and good damage, in antelope, deer, elk, and buffalo.

[Bass Ackward]

Joe, your hunting results,is exactly why I always autopsy an animal after the kill. I've always had good wound channels with cast, and good damage, in antelope, deer, elk, and buffalo.


Ric,

Exactly. That is what I meant by what you see. The autopsy results tell me where my velocity needs to be and what I can or can not do with my meplat size and bullet hardness. Then after I have tweeked that combination, I know exactly what my range limitations and shot angles CAN and must be to get the desired killing effect based on what material I must penetrate.

Many people go about this strictly by what they read or "observe" in the game field. Observations can change and will change very quickly if different material is struck or distance is increased beyond a certain point. And this point can be a lot closer than people believe. What is amazing is that the history of lead developed when necessity WAS the mother of invention, what our forefathers came up with or rather did not use. Do you think that they never thought of things we do today like the invention of the really wide meplat?

The faith in a really wide meplat is often misunderstood. A wide meplat that is unstable in air when it drops to a certain velocity will be unstable in flesh once it drops to that same velocity. That happens very quickly and unpredictably. This is why a wide meplat often outperforms on close shots where it has the velocity and less predictibly on what amounts to maximum ranges for a bullet design. That is also why jacketed bullets excell when they have high twist rates to maintain stability in very large penetration distances at slow velocities. You hear some people that love fast twists for hunting but don't know exactly why. Stability of the projectile during penetration. A stable projectile will penetrate farther in a straight line pushing it's killing nose farther which will ultimately be more effective.

Now that term "maximum" is the misleading part. That can be 70 yards or 200 yards. Once unstable, and the meplat or expanded nose turns, the effect of "a" meplat is lost altogether. If the bullet has a smaller meplat that is stable, (@ 70% limit) it will be less dramatic in it's effect upon entry, but carry that easier to maintain nose shape farther in a more stable path. This is a negative to the slowest twist rate for lead syndrom. I actually prefer no meplat over 70% and I adjust my caliber, bullet weight, velocity and distances accordingly. I actually adapt by not going over 60%. If 60% fails I need a bigger caliber, not a wider nose. This failure at a critical distance, is where and why the jacketed bullet moves ahead in performance because of it's either tougher construction that minimizes expansion or higher RPM that was established by twist rate and velocity.

[waksupi]

BA, exceptionally good description!

[44man]

Bass, I have shot wide meplats from my revolvers to 500 meters with astounding accuracy. My last four shots on the steel buf were in 3". I put more faith in them then you do. I have never had one turn in a deer to over 100 yd's. I think the LBT truncated cone is much better then the semi wadcutter too.
The reason for dismal long range performance is not matching the length of the boolit to the twist rate. For instance, my .44 SBH shoots best with 300 to 330 gr boolits, my .475 doesn't start to shoot until I reach 400 gr's. And the strange thing is the 45-70 BFR loves no heavier then 320 gr's.
A lot of guys blame the nose instead of the size and weight of the boolit.
I have gotten away from the Keith because there are so many variations, some shoot great, others stink.
Cast boolit design is crazy. I have shot a pile of WFN boolits from my .475 with bad results. I gave up on them for a while. I made a mould and for some reason, this WFN boolit shoots like crazy, putting 5 shots in 5/8" at 50 yds and is extremely accurate past 100 yd's. It is the same weight as the ones that don't shoot but some little change I did makes it a winner. I will never know what I did, it was just luck and I will never duplicate it. Bullet balance? Your guess is as good as mine.

[felix]

Very well written, BA! At deer hunting ranges that's why the 32 special (16 twist) outperforms the 30-30 (12 twist) in killing power. The 32 is just stable enough to make it into the vitals and then begin its corkscrew for the final effect. ... felix

[felix]

Boolit balance is right up there with ignition, 44man! Both internal and external ballistics have to be exquisite for long range accuracy. The specific gravity center has to placed just right for the boolit to maintain its intended course in the ambient chosen. ... felix

[felix]

A secant ogive tends to give longer range accuracy with pot luck placement of the specific gravity center, given that every other parameter is the same. It appears that the LBT design adheres to this idea, but I am not certain. It would be nice to know exactly where the center should be for a given design. ... felix

[Bucks Owin]

I dissected some 44 mag bullets. From the left: the Hornay 180 gr XTP (the type I killed the big doe with up in Ohio), factory Winchester 240 Silvertip, factory Remington 240 flatnose, and a Hornady 250 gr 45 caliber XTP shot into my test medium using my Old Model Ruger Blackhawk. I included a second picture of that 45 slug at a different angle, as I think it's impressive and performed impressive.

Joe

I agree that the .45 250 gr XTP you show has performed perfectly in whatever medium, velocity and range was used. If my .44 300 gr XTPs performed like that (instead of coming apart or not expanding at all) I'd be speaking of the XTP boolit in glowing terms!

Unfortunately....

Dennis

BTW, were mine "magnum" or not? Probably not?

[Bucks Owin]

Well we all know Ross Seyfred, his writing that is. I think pretty highly of him and to me I feel he was more of a technical writer, kinda like Rick Jamison, then a story teller. He was into large caliber big revolvers as we all know too. Okay...he preached hard hard cast bullet, punch a hole through the animal. Well as alot of hunters found out you have to be a great shot and a Navajo certified tracker, because most the time an animal shot with a hard cast bullet isn't going down anytime soon AND apparently Ross got flooded with a bunch of letters saying so. SO, he changed his thinking and started preaching expanding jacketed bullets for deer class animals. He agreed that hard cast just punched holes and what was need to stop the animal quicker was an expanding jacketed bullet. We've talked about this in the forum. This is a known story and fact. I even had an example of this. Load was a RCBS 255 SWC hard cast and over enough powder to give it an honest 1600 fps out of my Winchester 94 rifle. I shot a button buck with it about 35 yards away facing me at just a slight angle. I hit him right below the neck and above the legs in the center of his chest. At the shot he humped up, spun around and high tailed it out of there. I was shocked. Alot of hours later I found him dead quite some ways off. There was no blood trail. I found him my making circles and then larger circles. The bullet hit exactly where I stated and it came out high on his right ham near the tail base just about. The bullet traveled through his entire body. You know it had to center the lungs and I'm sure it got the top of the heart or not. He was pretty much on a parallel horizontal plane with my bullet. Now how much better could you ask for. A big flat nose SWC at 1600 fps and the deer runs off? That was it for me. I then switched back to jacketed. The only gun I hunt whitetail deer with now is my 45-70 with the RCBS 405 gr cast of a WW's with some lead added and not hardened. Nary a deer has escaped that load and the bullet does expand, I recovered one.

If I'm going to be hunting grizz it's going to be with a big rifle with jacketed ammo, I don't see a need for a back up handgun then, but just so I don't get post about that I'll carry a 45LC loaded very very hot with a big weight bullet in a very very strong revolver. If could only have a revolver to hunt grizzly it's going to be a 454 heavy weight jacketed bullet.

Joe

I too shoot the RCBS 225 GC boolit for silhouette and think it hardly qualifies as a "big flat nose" bullet. (Or one that I'd use as a handgun hunting bullet) but I sure don't understand how you could have walloped a deer in the top center of it's chest, the bullet traveling completely through the animal lengthwise, and have it go very far. It may have taken you hours to find it but that don't mean it "lived" for hours! Maybe it went "between" the lungs and "didn't" hit the top of the heart? Are you saying it would have flipped over in the air and hit like a sack of potatoes if you'd been using an XTP boolit? C'mon Joe...

I agree about the armament for grizzly though. I'd use my .338 M-70 and not ANY handgun....

Dennis

BTW, a somewhat similar shot I made on a large BC moose one time was the ONLY time I've ever seen a moose go down in it's tracks. The bull was quartering away at about 125 yds and a .338 225 gr Hornady Spire Point struck just in front of the left hindquarter (behind the ribs) and came out the right side of it's neck near the chest....

[PatMarlin]

These threads sometimes make your head spin for a not as experienced hunter as myself.

My only deer so far was taken by my Marlin guidegun in 45-70 with a Lee 340gr plain base ACWW, backed ny 38grs of 4895 milsurp.

Big doe at 50 yards reared up and flopped over dead when I hit her about 2" below the spine over the heart. That deer has been good eatn'.. :mrgreen: and I think that about takes care of my deer huntin' up here in our woods, but I would like to have a self defense big critter load for my 45 LC Blackhawk.

So reading all these opinions makes it sort of difficult, but food for thought.. :drinks:

[44man]

Yes, it does make things confusing. No single choice can be made by one or two experiences with a bullet. Many have had several good results with the wrong bullet. This does not mean it is the only one to use, several failures later, smart hunters change. Failures occur with the proper bullet also and that does not mean the bullet was at fault. Animals are very tough sometimes, I have seen a small doe shot 11 times with a shotgun and slugs. It was tracked and shot over and over but kept going. She was hamburger at the end. I have seen deer with a hole big enough to put your head in that went over a mile. Other deer just drop at the shot like they were hit by lightning when the boolit made only a small hole all the way through and missed the spine by a wide margin.
I have something over 355 deer kills with everything imaginal and have seen all kinds of results. The most consistant kills were with round balls from .45, .50 and .54 muzzle loaders. Next was the 12 gauge shotgun. Next are the revolvers with heavy boolits. The best kills with rifles were the lowly 30-30. .32, 6.5X55, etc. Most guys that live around me use magnums and their deer loss is unreal.
Shot placement is the key, but is it? I have lost a deer hit through both lungs with a blood trail you can run on. I found lung tissue hanging on trees and enough blood that the deer could not go 30 yd's but she quit bleeding and went on a trail with other deer tracks and she was never found. Every hunter loses deer and you just can't base the results on the bullet if you kill a deer or lose a deer. It must be based on the overall results of many deer.
Since I hunt now with only bows, revolvers and muzzle loaders, I know what arrow, broadhead, boolit and ball to use that will give almost 100% recovery.
I have had a few shots that hit too far back where the deer went less then 30 yd's and have had perfect double lung shots where the deer was not found after 2 days of searching.
Guys have to fess up and admit failure but it does not mean the arrow, bullet, ball, slug or shot placement was at fault.
To say one or two fantastic kills with a particular bullet means it is the best is also wrong.

[Bucks Owin]

Good post 44man. You just never know sometimes. I've seen deer that seemed "struck by lightning" when hit in the lungs with a .220 Swift but I wouldn't carry one deer hunting....

I haven't killed the number of deer you have, I guess something over 100 or so. But the majority were hit in the ribcage with a 130 gr .270 and as you say some went down as if poleaxed and some ran a ways...

I've always liked fast stepping, quick opening projectiles for deer and have never killed one with a handgun yet but I'm leaning towards using a wheelgun for whatever hunting days are left to me. I've already killed "my share" with a rifle and it sounds like you know what I mean.... ;)

Dennis

Oh! Almost forgot. Killed two deer with a T/C Hawken .50 shooting RBs and sure have no complaints about it's "killing power"! (At least under 100 yds...)

[Larry Gibson]

Im new to casting so I will ask dumb question about it every now and then. I dont cast a bullet for hunting purposes yer jsut for plinkin with 38 special and 45 acp, but what makes a good cast hunting bullet?

Do you want to drop them in water or let them air cool?
Only use pure lead or do WW work?
What shape/style works best?

I also shoot jacket hollow points out of my .45 at close to 1100fps which I plan on carring on a bear hunt coming up this fall for back up because I am going to use my bow as a primary. But if I use my 45 on whitetail deer, which is perfectly legal in MI also I beleive it is ethical if I go after them with a bow hunting state of mind get them in close and make sure they are broad side, would cast or jacketed be better for a 20 yard or closer shot.

DK


From experience shooting (hunting) two black bears that had been tree'd by dogs with cast bullets in the .45 ACP. I used a Colt Combat Commander .45 ACP with the classic Cooper load of a 200 gr hard cast (Lyman 452460 of WWs water quenched from the mould) over 7.5 gr Unique. Velocity is 990 fps out of my Commander. First bear I shot 5 times because he didn't want to die and fall out of the tree. Turns out he was quite dead and just stuck in the tree. The tree was on a steep sidehill and I was able to get a fairly level shot at him from going up the side of the hill until I was about level with him to shoot. Range was about 30 yards. The bear weighed about 200 lbs and 4 of the 5 shots penetrated through and through. One That was recovered in the off side shoulder lodged in the shoulder bone/blade(?) but had also gone through the near side shoulder. Other than the rifling grooves and a small cut from the bone it could practically have been reloaded and shot again. The second bear was shot once from the ground at 35-40 feet from probably around a 60 degree angle. It flinched at the shot and moved part way around the tree trunk. As I was trying for a second shot the bear fell out of the tree quite dead. This bear was smaller at about 180 lbs and the bullet went through the breast, the heart/lungs and out through the back.

I don't really carry a handgun I consider to be a bear "stopper" (including my .41 and .44 magnums) in a close range charge scenario. However, I have warded off a couple attacks by shooting by the bears head. I am of the opinion that I would rather have any handgun than no handgun (remember the 1st rule of a gun fight - have a gun). Bears always maul humans before they kill them because bears are not experienced at killing humans. I would prefer to stick a muzzle into fur and pull the trigger to punching, biting, screaming, etc. In every instance I've read about a bear shot while mauling (not charging) shooting the bear has turned or stopped the bear attack. I guess I figure I'd rather be mauled and live to mauled, killed and eaten.

I'd advise if confronted with a bear you do not hesitate to shoot before it is too late. Like I said, I have stopped sow bears with cubs from attacking (one did chase me first though) by shooting right by their head. Stop the confrontation before the bear decides to attack if you can.

I've no problem with carrying a .45 in the woods for protection against animals as I most often carry one myself when not specifically carrying another handgun. Which brings me to another point; for many of us in certain parts of the lower 48 when we are in the woods we ARE in bear country. The experts would have us carry nothing but the most mondo hanguns known to man as only they are "bearly" (pun intended) adequate. If I am out hunting (shooting actually) ground squirrels in clear cuts with my Ruger .32 H&R do I also carry a .500 S&W? I think not. I will pay attention to my surroundings to avaiod a bear problem and if I have to I will use the .32 as best I can. Sometimes I think the experts lead us to believe the only safe way to deal with bears is not to go in the woods.

Larry Gibson

[dk17hmr]

Well it is for sure now I got my permit today in the mail sayin I have a tag, we have to send in for a tag in MI. I still plan on hunting with my bow from a tree with my 45 for a "just in case **** hits the fan".

The 1911 is my only handgun and like I said before I think 8 rounds of 45 is going to be better then 1 arrow if I have something go wrong. But now I have been reconsidering my bullet. I will probably load the mag with hard cast heavy bullets or FMJs under 2 Hollow points probably XTPs because they shoot good in my Springfield. I can dump a 8 round mag pretty quick ussally with all the bullets on paper at 10 yards.....getting pretty good at double tappin.

[Bucks Owin]

That oughtta work!

Good luck amigo,

Dennis

[PatMarlin]

Much agreement on the effectiveness of muzzel loaders.

Wouldn't that mean big soft lead= effective kills?

And why is the .358 Winchester such an effective killer with cast boolits as I read much on from Ric Waksupi and others?

[Bucks Owin]

Much agreement on the effectiveness of muzzel loaders.

Wouldn't that mean big soft lead= effective kills?

Only if they are round Pat....:roll:

Dennis :-D

[Bass Ackward]

Well, I see some of this would be misunderstood.

The discussion I made was not about killing, but on showing how stabilization affects penetration and how the vaunted wide flat noses can work against you especially if you WANT penetration. And why jacketed will outperform cast .... and fail too. Everything, including an arrow will kill or fail. If you don't understand how to control cast to achieve just enough penetration, you will be less effective than you would prefer to be.

Since we moved this discussion from controlled penetration to simply killing, I'll make my point. I have never lost a deer since I focused on wounding instead of killing from that point on. No matter where they were shot. The key is that it is not how something kills, ........ but how it wounds that makes the difference in hunting. That is because not every shot will be perfect, not every animal will cooperate, and why results differ so from animal to animal. But learn how to wound properly, and if you get into those unplanned, unpredictable situations, you will still get your game. That is the biggest mistake that is made by gun hunters whether they prefer cast or jacketed.

You have to understand what it is you are trying to produce, to know if you need a WFN or not, a heavy bullet or light, hard or soft lead, a smaller caliber or larger one.

Deer? Well .... I don't consider deer as real penetration problems. I can shoot through them with a 22LR. So when a bullet fails to push through a deer from the same angle and distance, I take notice.

Minus the required velocity to create hydrostatic shock, any meplat size .... or no meplat will work on a deer if you cut a 1" to 1 1/2" hole. All you have to strive for is a hole clear through in that range, no more, no less. Same size hole will work for anything on this contenant. But it becomes harder to cut that size hole all the way through the bigger, softer, fatter, stuff controlling those same variables. Once I obtain those goals I've found my load. Surpass those requirements and the kills may be more violent, but the game can be lost faster too. If you need a super WFN to cut a 1" to 1 1/2" hole, then by all means use it. It's OK to be blunt. :grin: But if you don't, you are creating larger holes you are being counter productive in your goals.

Let me be clear. I have lost lost deer. Using jacketed bullets of all shapes. And I have had the same bullets under the same conditions dust them in their tracks. I have had deer succumb to cast WFNs out of a 458 blowing massive wound channels and exit wounds. I lost some of them with those same size holes too. Once I learned to mold and load to wound in the proper manner, no person in our hunting party has ever lost a deer since. No matter where it was shot on it's body using cast. I have transfered that experience over to water filled jugs and I can now use those to predict success. But it took me time. Would some other medium work? Sure. As long as you can compare observed game results from loads that work to relate to ones that don't perform the same in that medium.

All I need to do is taylor my velocity (distance), my bullet hardness, my meplat, so that I cut that 1" hole at the minimum to maximum range of interest. That is why I don't need a WFN. Or ultra hard bullets. Because I can create that hole with a little more velocity or a little softer lead. In fact, a WFN is a limiter to me. It cuts my ballistic coefficient and maximum range. It lengthens my minimum range if I use enough velocity to get trajectory.

It's a total package concept with the equipment you are using that you must learn about to achieve the desired result to be effective. So my opinion is complete now. It's not how big it is, but how you use it. Heard that one before huh? :grin:

[44man]

Right on, Bass! Experience pays off every time.

[Junior1942]

>.... or no meplat will work on a deer if you cut a 1" to 1 1/2" hole.

I bet that sucker kicks!

[waksupi]

Much agreement on the effectiveness of muzzel loaders.

Wouldn't that mean big soft lead= effective kills?

And why is the .358 Winchester such an effective killer with cast boolits as I read much on from Ric Waksupi and others?

Pat, pretty easy formula. Heavy bullet+reasonable velocity+fat nose+placement= good terminal performance

[StarMetal]

Dennis,

It's the 255 gr SWC RCBS bullet I use and it's not gaschecked. So it's different from the 225 gaschecked one you're speaking of. Mine does have a fairly large flat nose. I belive I hit that deer good, and from 35 yards away and that big flatnose bullets traveling over 1600 fps, heck the hydraulic shock alone should have don't something.

Joe

[PatMarlin]

John you autta right a book called... "How I did it".

I'll be your first customer.. :mrgreen:

[Bucks Owin]

Dennis,

It's the 255 gr SWC RCBS bullet I use and it's not gaschecked. So it's different from the 225 gaschecked one you're speaking of. Mine does have a fairly large flat nose. I belive I hit that deer good, and from 35 yards away and that big flatnose bullets traveling over 1600 fps, heck the hydraulic shock alone should have don't something.

Joe

Oh. OK, sorry...

Yeah, you'd think so huh? Was a "tough" deer I guess! ;)

Dennis

BTW, I'd like to see how that big Lee boolit would perform with a small (about 1/8") but fairly deep (say 3/8" to 1/2") hollowpoint in it, cast of straight WW (Or even a big 1/4" but shallow 1/4" HP with pure lead!?) Maybe one day soon I'll buy a Hollowpointer Tool for my Forster trimmer and find out. But first I think I need a different test medium, maybe sawdust mixed with ???

[StarMetal]

Dennis,

You know, you made me think, that was a young button buck. Another time in PA I shot another button buck, but this time with a 139 gr Hornady out of a 7mm-08 doing high 2800 fps, close too, about 50 yards. That son of a gun went waaaaaaaaaaay over 100 yards or more. He left a blood trail that looked like you filled an automotive high pressure paint paint gun and sprayed a path on the snow. I trailed quietly and I saw him ahead standing up leaning against a tree. I pulled my rifle up, but thought something was wrong. There sure was, he was dead on his feet! Well back at the farmers house, I gave the button buck to him for appreciation of hunting his land. He butchered him up right then and there as we talked....he was a friend of mine. Did an autopsy. I shot the buck broadside, his left side facing me, right behind the shoulder. Well, there wasn't a piece of the heart left as big as a golf ball and the lungs were pretty well mangled too. The exit hole in his right side was about grapefruit size. You're right, young button bucks are tough!!!! :Fire:

Joe

[MT Gianni]

My youth hunting experiences were on pheasants. Occasionally you would drop one and find one bb in it and it fell like a stone and bounced when it hit the ground never to move again. More often you would hit them hard with a lot of feathers in the air and the back end sagged indicating a broken spine. You would still need to run with the dog to where they last were to get on them as they seemed somehow to crawl away with no apparent power to their legs.
Some animals are just tougher than others, breed specific or not, and as I only have the opportunity to shoot 5 deer and antelope a year in Montana I think it would take the next 20 years to be really sure about what will always work on medium game. Gianni.

[44man]

I know a guy that goes the other way. He will only use Ballistic tips from his high power rifles. He gets real irate when deer don't drop on the spot and thinks any deer that goes 30 yd's means something is wrong with the loads. Of course he only gets a half deer of edible meat.

[felix]

44man, why does he shoot into the meat with that high velocity stuff? Why not just blow off the neck/head and be done with it? ... felix

[Bucks Owin]

My favorite broadside shot is just a plain old center of the ribcage. "Sometimes" it'll blow a deer off it's feet with a 130 gr @ 3100+ fps but mostly they'll run 50 to 100 yds and pile up. Nothing can live long with it's lungs in shreds and no meat is shot up that I'd want to eat anyway....

FWIW,

Dennis

[dk17hmr]

For my high Velocity stuff 223, 25-06, 308 and my dads 30-06 that is all we use for deer hunting is Nosler Ballistic tips. Not saying I have taken a deer with the 223 but I do take it out once in a while.

But opening day 3 years ago a friend and I were watchin a field behind my house on top of an old bull dozer (makes a great blind) when 3 deer camp out into the far side of the field, I had my 25-06 my buddy had a 30-30 I told him Im gunna take that shot ended up being 279 yards I my hairs on the front of the should so either I get shoulder or neck, at the shot the doe dropped neck shot no meat wasted. My buddy had a doe tag as well, and the other 2 hung out in the field as the other one was flopping, I gave him my rifle because it is higher velocity the shot was 210 yards and he blew the heart out of it with an exit hole of about 1 1/2" the deer went 40 yards into the field and face planted it. My load was 100 grain ballistic tip at 3100fps.

Ballistic tips work undoubtable on light skinned critters, just dont shoot them in meat, neck/head/lungs/heart work.
DK

[44man]

Felix, he is not a good shot. He can't hit unless there are sandbags under the gun. Offhand, it is spray and pray.

[JDL]

Felix, he is not a good shot. He can't hit unless there are sandbags under the gun. Offhand, it is spray and pray.

Sounds as if some pratice is in order! :-) -JDL

[guninhand]

I haven't hunted with cast, but given that most traditional black powder hunters use pure lead bullets, don't they have the best terminal performance? So if you used pure lead in a cartridge, and for some reason leading and accuracy were not a problem regardless of velocity, wouldn't that pure lead projectile be the best one to use, for most practicle hunting?

[JDL]

I haven't hunted with cast, but given that most traditional black powder hunters use pure lead bullets, don't they have the best terminal performance? So if you used pure lead in a cartridge, and for some reason leading and accuracy were not a problem regardless of velocity, wouldn't that pure lead projectile be the best one to use, for most practicle hunting?

Pure lead has excellent terminal performance and I have used it a lot for deer as well as elk in paper patched boolits. However, a 510 grain .45 cal. @ 1650 fps, will not punch through both sides of an elk 100 % of the time but, stops under the hide on the off side. Hey, it worked every time leaving a profuse blood trail from the single entry wound but, if penetration from less than perfect angles is required on larger animals, pure lead isn't the first choice. On deer sized game with 310 grain boolits @ 1950 fps or so, I've never been able to recover one. Again, profuse blood trails. -JDL

[dk17hmr]

What gun is that out of JDL?

Muzzeloader or something like a 45-70?

I am getting a 45-70 this summer well barrel to go on my NEF Handi rifle and plan on shooting 500 grain 458 hard cast out of it, for deer and target shooting way out there.

Just wondering about velocity and such.

DK

[JDL]

dk17hmr,
I was using my .45-70 B-78 that weighs 9.49# ready to fire. I don't know what your Handi rifle weighs but, in my rifle, when using the 510 PP, I have never wondered if the primer was a dud or not! Much comeback! I would reccomend first trying air cooled w/w as they likely will get you where you want to be. -JDL

[PatMarlin]

My favorite broadside shot is just a plain old center of the ribcage. "Sometimes" it'll blow a deer off it's feet with a 130 gr @ 3100+ fps but mostly they'll run 50 to 100 yds and pile up. Nothing can live long with it's lungs in shreds and no meat is shot up that I'd want to eat anyway....

FWIW,

Dennis

Our family butcher says that's absolutely the best shot. Fill the cavity with massive bleeding, and it makes good meat. Better if they pile up too. Mmmm Mmmm Good!

[PatMarlin]

I need to just sell all my rifles and keep my 45-70, and be done with it.. :Fire:

But then you'd have nothing more to write about.. :mrgreen:

[JDL]

I need to just sell all my rifles and keep my 45-70, and be done with it.. :Fire:

But then you'd have nothing more to write about.. :mrgreen:

I've thought of the same thing but, I guess I'm just a rifle ****.....love 'em all, some just more than others! :-D:-D

[Dutch4122]

....................., I guess I'm just a rifle ****.....love 'em all, some just more than others! :-D:-D

Glad to see I'm in good company here.:):):):):)

[Bucks Owin]

What gun is that out of JDL?

Muzzeloader or something like a 45-70?

I am getting a 45-70 this summer well barrel to go on my NEF Handi rifle and plan on shooting 500 grain 458 hard cast out of it, for deer and target shooting way out there.

Just wondering about velocity and such.

DK

How far is "way out there"? Remember, the .45/70 trajectory not exactly ".220 Swiftish".... (More like a rainbow!)
Also, even the 405 gr at 1800 fps "backs up" with authority, I'm sure the 500 is more of the same. Those Handi Rifles are lightweight!

FWIW,

Dennis

BTW, no slam on the .45/70 NEF HR, I love mine! Wish they'd let me shoot silhouette with the leverguns...:(

[dk17hmr]

Well I will be getting the 32" 45-70 barrel plus I have a 3/4" copper pipe filled with lead in the stock. With my muzzleloader barrel on there it weighs close to 10 pound. I bet it will be close to that or a pound or so more, I am also going to mount a scope which isnt much but it adds a little.

And as to the way out there question, I shoot 300 yards alot on our personal range at the house here and often shoot 400 plus yards, on state land to the north of me about 30 miles, I want to shoot farther then that if my dad can get into one of the local ranges where they have a 500 yard range. My max shot on a deer would be 300 yards.

DK

[JDL]

Well, dk17hmr 500 grains is a lot of boolit for deer but, let's see. Assuming you'll be using a boolit with the BC of at least the Lyman 457406 @ 1700 fps, and a scope mounted 1.5" over the bore, your trajectory will look something like this:
60 yards--- +10"; 90 yards--- +14" 150 yards --- +18.25" and then it starts it's downward plummet toward the 300 yard mark. Is the picture starting to develope here?
Target shooting is one thing at known distances, hunting is entirely different! If you want to shoot deer at 300 yards, for the sake of the animal, use a high velocity, flat shooting, jacketed bullet of the proper construction. -JDL

[Bass Ackward]

My rule is that when I can no longer shoot at a spot on the animal, I no longer shoot at the animal. No matter what I am using. Since I like low power scopes for hunting, that is about 200 yards.

Open sights is like 50 feet. Curse that 44man. Now I have a handgun that looks and feels like a Space Invader rig. :grin:

[waksupi]

45-70 was one of the founding rounds, of the term Rainbow trajectory. Definitely not a long range round, in a hunting rifle. And not many want to pack a Sharps, and figure out all the minutia needed to make a clean shot, when hunting.
I'm with the other guys. I limit all of my shots to under 200 yards. And I will guarantee, over the last 35+ years, 98% of all my kills have been under 50 yards. Longer shots are indeed rare, for a consciencious hunter. Or for that matter, a real hunter, who has the skill to get close to his game.

[9.3X62AL]

I'm not a deeply experienced big game hunter by any stretch of the imagination (7 deer so far), but the longest shot I've taken on one was ~125 yards, and the next-longest was about half that distance. A lot of this has to do with vegetation and topography locally. A 45-70 would do very well here, as would a large caliber handgun. If more open country was on the agenda, a flatter-shooting caliber with j-words would get the nod. I'm currently getting re-acquainted with a Ruger 77R in 6.5 x 55 toward this end.

[Bucks Owin]

IMO, there's nothing better than varmint shooting to get accustomed to estimating range, learning the trajectory of the rifle used, figuring holdover (or under!) and in general sharpening your skill with a rifle. When you can reach out and swat a ground squirrel, sod poodle, or groundhog at longish range, the ribcage of even a small deer is a pretty big target by comparison....

Dennis

BTW, varmint shooting doesn't have to be like "long range benchrest", you can always trying stalking with a handgun or .22 rifle etc. Destructive varmints are at the bottom of the foodchain and pretty wary!

[dk17hmr]

I know all about P-dog shooting I have shot them with 22 handguns up to 308 rifles, I was spotting for my dad who shot one with his 45-70 Pedersoli. I rarely have a 300 yard shot but where I hunt opening day I have taken a doe at 279 yards with my 25-06 that is my longest shot on a big game animal, I have taken p-dogs at close to 700 yards, with a very hot load out of a single shot Savage 223, I am better then the average shooter not be conceded but I am. That being said, for deer in the U.P. which is where I spend most of my rifle season I am lucky if I get a 150 yard shot. The longest to date on the property was my dad with a 175 yard shot on an 8 point. Most of the shots at 40-75 yards.

Dk

[Bucks Owin]

My kinda "round about" point was that with a .45/70 estimating range is pretty critical when much over 150 yds or so. Varmint shooting would be especially helpful practice. Someone who can hit a ground squirrel at say 250 has to have a totally different sight picture than at 75 yds. Not so with a .308 as a dead on hold would work at both ranges if sighted in normally for it's trajectory....
( about 3" high at 100 yds...)

A 700 yd shot with a .45/70 would be sorta like "mortar fire"...

Dennis

DK I'm curious. How were you sighted in and how did you have to hold for that 700 yd .223 shot? (And what weight boolit?)

[dk17hmr]

We have target turrets on our varmint scopes, when p-dog shooting we often get more then one shot at the critter so ussally the first 2 shots are the sighter and the 3 one is close enough to hit it. P-dogs arent rocket scientists. I couldnt tell ya what hold over was because we put the crosshairs on them and adjust the scope until we get a hit or are close enough to hit with hold over or under or side to side.

The load we were using was a 55 grain Nosler Ballistic tip at close to 3200 + or - 50fps.

A month ago or so I went into talk to a United States Marine Recruiter, who has been in for 13 year and is a Sniper and Intructor (on break from 2 tours in Iraq and one in Afganastan), but we were talkin and I told him about some of our p-dogs shootin trips and he called me on 700 yards with a 223, he was giving me crap about the bullet tumbling and such at that range and how it would be impossible at 223 velocity. I had to remind him I was shooting handloads out of a bolt action not an AR style rifle, he agreed and said it would still be a hell of a shot and some of his Snipers couldnt do it with there 308 rifles.....I never told him it took more then 1 shot to get the little bugger. I have heard all the garbage about 223 isnt a long range varmint rifle but I just keep my nose out of that subject and shoot p-dogs at ranges past 500 yards and figure that is close to long range.

I have to argue that A 700 yd shot with a .45/70 would be sorta like "mortar fire"... With a Verner sight think Sharps rifle, one can hit a 1000 yard target from the line after the sight was adjusted corretly.

DK
PS....Gunny P (Marine) told me I would be an excellent Marine and probably a Sniper if I choice that route, I was looking more for a Combat Engineer type job....one more year of college before I do anything like that.

[StarMetal]

The gunny is just trying to recruit you, being a sniper in the military today has ALOT more to do with then just the shooting part.:Fire:

Joe

[dk17hmr]

Agreed, I dont know if I could even pass the Sniper training anyways, I cant sit still long enough. I dont plan on going into Law Enforcment so the sniping skills wouldnt be useful to me other then deer hunting...lol

I planned on being a building and after reseaching the Combat Engineers I dont know if I would want to do all they do.

I am researchin the Navy Seabees they may be more my type.

Cant blame Gunny for trying...I respect our Flag, Country, Soliders, Sailors and Marines alot that is why I want to do something for the country, but by no mean do I want to be a sniper.

God Bless
DK

[Four Fingers of Death]

Unfortunately, by the second shot you would have probably be taking some incoming (not cool).

I think one our problems with current soldiers is that they are doing short tours and their skill levels are getting really good and we bring them home. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want anyone to stay in harm's way a minute longer than we have to, but the awesome skill levels we talk about in the past war's were built up over a longer period.

I remember reading (I think it was in Keith's Sixguns) that towards the end of the American Civil War the cavalry (on both sides) were so experienced with their pistols from almost daily use over several years that they were considered extremely dangerous to 175 yards with them.

My dad spent WW2 in the Aussie infantry in New Guinea and Borneo and he was a rifleman who assisted the sharpshooter in his platoon and rotated with the scouts. He said after the first two years his mate, Fatty Lane (he looked pretty skinny in all the photos I ever saw of him) became quiet deadly and inflicted a terrific toll on the Japs.

Fatty had his P14 Sniper Rifle replaced with a Garand sniper rifle eventually. Fatty used it mostly with iron sights appartently. Their favourite trick was when the clip from the garand flew out with a distinctive 'cling' there was invariably a Jap or two who would stick his head up and the rest of the platoon were waiting. MIck.

It's funny, when he left the Army after the war, fatty went home to his family home in Cremorne in Sydney and turned up for work the next morning at his family's shoe shop.

[Bucks Owin]

DK, I'm well aware that the .45/70 is used at 1,000 yards but the drop of it's "rainbow trajectory" is what makes it "kinda like" mortar fire....

A little humor there.... ;)

Dennis

BTW, a 700 yard hit with ANY "sporting" rifle, bolt action or not, on a target the size of a PD is about 25% skill and 75% luck! We all make those sort of shots occasionally but......(when we do, we tend to get a little "conceded" I guess...) :D

(And the gunney was right, the .223 at 3200 fps is not exactly the top of the heap when it comes to .22 cal varminters....)

At any rate, I'm sure you'll enjoy that 32" barrel and the extra weight you've added will let you "stoke it up" a little without the recoil being uncomfortable. Let us know how it shoots!

[SharpsShooter]

I use a 45-70 extensively to hunt, plink, punch paper etc.....you get the idea. "Mortar Fire" is a very apt term at 1000yds. Let's assume that we are shooting 500gr cast at 1250fps with a 200yd zero to get started. At 500yds the boolit has dropped 246 inches. Following that, to 1000yds it has continued to drop 1603 inches. BPCR 1000yds target pullers in the pits years ago have reported bullets coming in at incredible angles and now have an overhead protective barrier to prevent ther possibility of someone "lobbing one in"

I use a 75 Sharps as a hunting rig complete with tang rear and front globe sight. Still, I limit myself to 200yds for the sake of a clean, humane kill. With the use of a laser rangefinder, it would be possible to dial in the distance with relative security of a well placed shot, but using such a gadget detracts from the purpose I use the 75 for in the first place.

SS

[Blackwater]

FWIW, re the well hit deer running off, they've tended to do that in my experience when heart shot. If I can, I like to get my bullet on a broadside shot just behind the shoulder and a bit lower than most seem (from what I read) to try for. Between my son and myself, we've shot over 60 deer, and 90% have been one shot kills. Calibers and bullets used have been 6mm. Rem. w 85 gr. Speer PSPBT, 270 with most any 130 gr. bullet, but lately mostly ballistic tips, .308 & '06 with 150 gr. PSP's and BT's, the '06 with 165 Speers, and 7/08 with 140 gr. Rem. PSPCL's. Shots have ranged from 35 ft. to just a bit over 350 yds. Only ones that ran were centered heart shots.

I'm not sure why this is, but it's what I've noted, and noted pretty consistently. Heart shot = short to mid length mad dash where they crumple up at the end whenever nature and whatever else just extinguishes their having anything else left to give to the escape attempt.

Deer here in my section of SE Georgia run on the smallish side compared to some other locales, though we do get the occasional 200+ pounder. Rarely do they run 250 lbs.

If anyone has figured out why deer do what they do, it sure isn't me, but it's awfully nice to have something to talk about around the campfire.

I've talked to pathologists about human shootings. One perp took 6 chest hits with expanding .357's up in TN, and lived. Then there was the fella' I had on probation who shot a fella' with a Baby Browning .25 ACP and a FMC bullet, and he died very quickly. Bullet cut the main artery near the stomach. Another time a woman shot her abusive husband as he ran out back through the plowed corn field with a gun that you wouldn't bet would even fire. Two pulls of the trigger, and the two .22 LR solids hit him in the heart .... running shots at something between 50 & 75 yds. I guess it was just his time to go? I dunno.

If and when I go afield with cast bullets for the first time for deer, I'll use as soft a bullet as I can get to shoot well and still give me 1650 fps. minimum, and 2,000 would make me feel a bit better. Trajectory alone would make me go with a faster load IF it's accurate and expands well. That's with .30 to .35 calibers. With the .45/70, and for OUR SMALLISH SOUTHERN WHITETAILS ONLY, I'll go with a 300-350 gr. bullet, and likely with the 330 gr. Lyman/Gould HP version, and I'll shoot it as fast as I can get with good accuracy. If one gets away, it'll be my fault, I think.

Over the years, I've known guys who've shot deer with just about anything you can name, from the .22 LR (both HP and solids, HS and std. vel.), to the .375 H&H. Only conclusion I've been able to come to is that if you put the bullet in the right place, get penetration and expansion enough to disrupt major bodily functions, you eat venison, sometimes at the cost of a little tracking, which is a real PITA around here. Too dang many tracks! (12 deer limit, IF you've got the time to go often enough - not many have that much time).

There aren't any magic bullets, nor even shot placement, but day in and day out, the old Jack O'Connor behind the shoulder (just!) and 1/3 way up from the belly is my best bet to give in-the-tracks kills, and damage little edible meat, even with a ballistic tip. Key is, when you dress the deer, to just cut out the gelatinous red stuff and let the dogs feast on it. They LOVE it. It's not generally considered edible by us 2-legged types. I like my bullet to just MISS the heart, but be up close to it. Seems to work for me, at least, but again, I'm shooting smaller deer than many of you are, so that's a factor in my experience that just can't be dismissed.

And occasionally, a deer just doesn't seem to know it's time to go to sleep. I've been in on the tracking of a few of those, and I do NOT like being out late at night with a light when I could be home eatin' some venison and sipping a cool adult beverage. Sometimes, though, you just don't get what you bargain for, and a man's gotta' do what a man's gotta' do, and leaving a shot deer in the woods is repugnant, so .... I always carry a light, but hope I don't have to use it. That forward lung shot's been my best "insurance," if there IS any, toward making that hope a reality .... usually.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I remember reading a chart at the old Anzac Range at Malabar that showed the trajectory of all Australian military rounds that has been used for long range target shooting. It showed the 450/577 round's trajectory was 78feet elevation over 1000yds. (This would be similar to the original 45/70 loads)

The trouble with long range punkin roller stuff is that a mistake in estimation of 25 yards can cause a miss. Still fun though. Probably worth buying a rangefinder if you want to play these sort of games.

[Bucks Owin]

I remember reading a chart at the old Anzac Range at Malabar that showed the trajectory of all Australian military rounds that has been used for long range target shooting. It showed the 450/577 round's trajectory was 78feet elevation over 1000yds. (This would be similar to the original 45/70 loads)

The trouble with long range punkin roller stuff is that a mistake in estimation of 25 yards can cause a miss. Still fun though. Probably worth buying a rangefinder if you want to play these sort of games.


78 feet! Good Lord! :roll:

But I'm not surprised and even with that .22 cal 55 gr boolit at 3200 fps, the drop at 700 yds would be considerable. Many feet for sure...

I've found that most folks, myself included, have a rough time estimating range very accurately after about 300 yds or so....

700 yds or 1000 yds don't look much different to me, it's just a helluva long ways!

Dennis

BTW, I like to think that if a top of the back hold won't kill your deer, it's too far away to be shooting at with whatever caliber you are using....

[PatMarlin]

I could lob one from my guide gun all the way over to your target Dennis.. :mrgreen: