9mm bullets tumbling

[smlekid]

Hi all I am having a little bit of trouble with my 9mm pistol. I'm getting about 1 in 10 bullets tumbling I'm using a Lee 124gr Truncated tumble lube bullet as cast at .357-.358" the bore slugs at .356 I'm using 4grs of Hodgsons Universal LLA lube accuracy is quite good except for the tumbling bulets
the barrel has very shallow rifling which is leading me to think the bullet is not engaging the rifling occasionally but i'm not getting any leading the alloy is hard lead I think it is ww with some lino
any ideas on what to try? would I be better going to a harder alloy or softer? what is generally the thing to do with shallow rifling? if that is causing my problem
the pistol is a 1911 Norinco that has been tuned with a new barrel (SAM I think they are sold as rock island arsenal in the States) not sure of the twistrate shoot Jwords ok and the Lee 124RNTL and 150rn 358 bullet without an issue but the Truncated is showing better accuracy and I'd like to get it upand running with it

[Edubya]

I've used plenty of Universal at 4gr behind a 124 lead cast, not your exact boolit though. This load has done well for me but I increased it 4.4gr and it did better. I've read a lot of guys are using WSF in the range of 4.0 to 4.7gr with a great deal of success. Maybe just try a little hotter.
Be sure to post your results as others can learn from your experience.
EW

[garandsrus]

Pull a couple of your loaded rounds and make sure that seating the boolit is not sizing the boolits down. My guess is that it is. You will need to back off the sizer die to fix the problem. You may also want to make sure that the crimp die is not sizing them.

Something is sizing the boolit too small which is which leads to tumbling.

John

[runfiverun]

if you are using mixed brass that could easily be your problem.

[sagacious]

I have had the same exact problem with the LEE 120tc. Some bullets tumbling, but zero leading. I use ww lead and size to .357", and use high-quality aftermarket barrels in my Browning Hi-Powers.

With the LEE 120tc in the 9mm, my experience has been that a little bit more velocity is likely to be the solution to your problem. I found that I could not get 100% stability with fast powders such as Bullseye, but a slightly slower powder like WW231 that gave higher velocity cured the problem immediately.

A quick review of the Hodgdon reloading site shows that 4.3grs Universal is the max load for your LEE 124grtc. That max recipe lists only 1096fps, and that may not be enough to ensure stability in your gun. It seems very likely that your 4.0gr charge is not quite providing adequate velocity/stability. Either try increasing your powder charge until you reach the 4.3grs max load, or switch to a slower powder that will give higher velocity.

Hope this helps, good luck! :drinks:

[putteral]

Yes, try a slower burning powder, I use 5.4 grs of AA#5 with the 124TC. Also like Power Pistol. Unique is another good option.

[dualsport]

I've read about 'lube purge' causing similar problems. Maybe using too much LLA? You could try thinning it, mix in a little JPW. Works for me.

[Edubya]

Yes, try a slower burning powder, I use 5.4 grs of AA#5 with the 124TC. Also like Power Pistol. Unique is another good option.
Unique, Universal and AA#5 are virtually the same. The same burn rate, you'll find very little difference in their performance.
EW

[chris in va]

I've just been through the whole exact scenerio as you just described. Bad tumbling issues with the 124gr TL TC boolit.

After many MANY different combinations of crimp, OAL and charge, here's what I found just today.

2.9gr of 231 and 1.09oal stopped the tumbling, mouse fart load. Both towel and water dropped gave a disappointing group on paper.

3.2gr 231 water dropped was the clear winner. No tumbling, more of a real group at 15 yards.

3.2gr 231 and towel dropped had three out of 20 that tumbled.

Hope this helps. Bottom line, at least in my CZ the boolits stop tumbling if they're hard and slower in velocity.

[smlekid]

thought I'd throw a picture in of some loaded rounds and boolits do you think I have a bit much crimp on them?
thanks for the advice I hope to try some out on the weekend
I will try sizing my cases in a 38 die and not my 9mm to see if it helps any then I'll try some different powders and let you know what happens

[chris in va]

I will try sizing my cases in a 38 die

I'm not sure that's even possible.

Looks like you have quite a crimp going there, that's for sure. Looks REALLY long too for the TC boolit. What's your OAL?

[smlekid]

sorry I should have added a 0 to make it a 380 die I have been loading for another 9mm with a phat barrel and was using a 380 flr die my OAL is 1.130" fits and feeds fine through my magazines
I'll back the crimp off a bit to I think

[blikseme300]

Waaay too much crimp. Crimping only needs to remove the belling. The boolits seem to need a deeper seating. I am quite sure that they would never chamber properly in any of my 9's.

Bliksem

[Edubya]

smlkid, I agree that you should seat your boolits as far out as possible. It sets the nose closer to the lands, but you need to shoot over a chronograph to get this to a reasonable velocity. When you have more space in the cartridge, you'll need to increase the powder charge.

Post #3 suggested that you pull a couple of these boolits and check the diameter of those; have you done this?

Post #4 pointed out that if you are using mixed brass, you may be causing some of this problem. Different companies use slightly different case wall thickness, it could be that a thicker case wall is squeezing the boolit down resulting in a too small boolit being fired.

Do you know what is meant by the "thumb-bench-press"? Check some of your loaded cartridges by first remeasuring the COL, then place the head of the boolit against the side of the bench and with your thumb, press as hard as you can against the back of the cartridge as if you are trying to shorten the COL. Remeasure to be sure that you have NOT succeeded. I try to get this pressure to 50lbs. This insures the crimp is solid. I have loaded many that would let me squeeze them in, I want to just get a solid crimp and not over-crimped; reference post #3 and #4 again.
EW

[smlekid]

thanks mate I should have addressed those questions brass is Winchester with a few PMC's that have snuck in I have just got hold of 1000 once fired Winchester cases an they will be the next cases I load up
I have found that the Federal cases are way bigger (thinner Iguess) than the Winchesters or PMC's (they seem very similar)
as yet I haven't pulled any loads been trying to figure out how I can do this without destroying the bullet i do have a kinetic bullet puller I wonder if it would get the bullet out with the crimp?
speaking of the crimp untill I took the photo and looked at it I didn't think I had that much on it its true what they say a pictue is worth 1000 words
the knowledge on this site is incredible thanks to all for advice and suggestions I hope to be getting into the shed as soon as the weather cools down its well into the 40's (C) at the moment and not much fun in a tin shed its only going to be in the 30'sover the weekend so I hope to have a play around then
stay tuned

[Edubya]

The kinetic puller is perfect for pulling and inspecting the boolit. Put something soft down into the end, like an ear plug, and don't worry about damaging the boolit. You're only real concern is to be able to measure the diameter of the base.

Also, there is another fella going through the same problem: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=73390

Good luck,
EW

[Willbird]

Unique, Universal and AA#5 are virtually the same. The same burn rate, you'll find very little difference in their performance.
EW

They are not virtually the same when we get to cleanliness. In fact they could not be more different unless AA has simply adopted universal as the "new #5".

I first used #5 in 45 acp at target load type velocities, and it was dirty dirty stuff. Universal used in the same application is squeeky clean.

I'm sort of wondering how far down inside the case your neck expander is going ? maybe it is not going as deep into the case as your bullet is getting seated ?? This would cause the back end of the bullet to get sized down as others have suggested.

Bill

[smlekid]

well I pulled a few rounds apart last night I picked a couple that had a noticable buldge in the case they measure up just fine no shrinking at all the bullet is the same diameter top and bottom
I have loaded some up with the same boolits I backed of the crimp and tried to push the boolits into the case using the "Thumb Bench Press" I just adjusted the crimp till I didn't get it to move
I also seated the rounds to an OAL of 1.100" I'm using the same powder charge
I did load up some at 4.4gr to try I hope to get to the range today will see what happens
I have been following the other post on tumbling bullets with interest it seems the Gentleman went to slower velocity to cure his problem

[Will]

I can't get the 124gr to shoot straight under about 1000fps which takes about 4.5gr

[Edubya]

well I pulled a few rounds apart last night I picked a couple that had a noticable buldge in the case they measure up just fine no shrinking at all the bullet is the same diameter top and bottom
I have loaded some up with the same boolits I backed of the crimp and tried to push the boolits into the case using the "Thumb Bench Press" I just adjusted the crimp till I didn't get it to move
I also seated the rounds to an OAL of 1.100" I'm using the same powder charge
I did load up some at 4.4gr to try I hope to get to the range today will see what happens
I have been following the other post on tumbling bullets with interest it seems the Gentleman went to slower velocity to cure his problem
Okay mate, just watch real closely for any signs of over pressure. You've reduced the COL and increased the charge, this can very rapidly increase the pressure. I would prefer to make one change at a time, it increases the chances of discovering the ultimate charge or the correct COL. Working with these pressures can get dangerous in a hurry.
Examine the first round very closely for a pancaked primer, split or bulged brass (especially around the web). I'm not familiar with your gun, but if there is any part of the brass, other than the base, exposed, it will be the weakest link and will bulge at anything close to overpressure.
Don't rush this developing an load! Be careful, there will be time for fun and exploring limits, let's get the basics down first.
Good Luck,
EW

[smlekid]

now I'm really confused I took the 1911 out to the range today and tried some more loads. First I shot a group with the original load that consisted of 4grs of AP70N (this is what is sold in the States as Hogdson's Universal) it shot well today first shot went low the next 8 pretty well into a nice group
2nd load was a slight increas to 4.4gr and a OAL of 1.100" as can be seen it tumbled
3rd load was a load that shot very well in my M213 Norinco it consists of a 158gr Lee RNTL 3.2grs of AP70N it really tumbled sorry about this pic I didn't realise the flash went off
4th load was a 150gr swc RCBS with the same charge of 3.2grs of AP70N
aim point was the bottom of the white square distance was 15m the pistol was rested on a sand bag
I think my next step is to try a different powder I would like to Chrony this load to see what speed I am getting
it still looks like the 124gr TCTL bullet is wotrh working with
the only thing I did a little different with these loads was use a 380 auto FLR die these give me about .002" interference on the bullet size I am using I just crimped them enough so I couldn't push the bullet any further into the case

[Edubya]

By changing boolits, powder charge, COL and even guns, you increase the possible variables and end up chasing your tail. If you will go ahead and work with just one boolit, write down each step and change only one variable at a time, you will advance at twice the rate. I know, it's easier for me to see as I'm not the one going through it. I did almost the same things that you are doing. Looking back, now I can see why it took me so long to develop my loads.

BTW, I have never shot my pistols off a sand bag. I'll use one to brace my wrists but not let it touch the gun. I figure that the gun will have to have more natural reaction if its not held artificially. The heavier boolits normally print a bit higher as a result.
Good Luck,
EW

[DukeInFlorida]

Here's how much crimp you need:

Start with a loose crimp, one that you know is too loose. Fire a few test rounds at a blank piece of paper at a distance of 5-8 feet. You'll see the bullet hole, with a neat dark gray spiral spray around it. The spiral is from the burning powder spinning down your rifling.

Tighten up the crimp just until the gray spiral goes away at that distance.

That's the perfect amount of crimp. That assures that the powder burns into clear gas before leaving the barrel. The only smoke remaining would be from the lube.

[Willbird]

the only thing I did a little different with these loads was use a 380 auto FLR die these give me about .002" interference on the bullet size I am using I just crimped them enough so I couldn't push the bullet any further into the case

Wait a minute here, if you can push the bullets deeper into the case when you have no crimp, then something is wrong, you are not getting .002 interference fit if you can do that.

Bill

[smlekid]

OK perhaps I need to clariy a few things firstly in an earlier post I showed a pic of my loaded rounds which had a bit much crimp on them so I backed my die right off and as suggested in post #14 I set my die accordingly by just putting enough crimp on so with a strong thumb pressure the boolit wouldn't move my bad should have explained it better
I cast up some more bullets last night just giving them a few days to settle down and have the LLA dry up a bit
I have loaded some some more loads (with the older batch of bullets) with 5.5grs of Herco (the slowest powder I had on hand) I'll give them a run when I get the chance

[Willbird]

With .002 neck tension you should NOT be able to move the bullet with strong thumb pressure with NO crimp applied at all. For some reason you are not getting the proper neck tension, crimp is not a substitute for proper neck tension.

Bill

[MtGun44]

I load the std lube groove 120 TC Lee to full factory vel and it is accurate and reliable in
Browning HP, P6/225, Beretta 92, etc. AC WWt sized .357, powder is Nobel SP8 a special
powder ONLY for the 9mm Parabellum, seems like a fairly slow powder for the caliber, maybe
around Unique speed, not really sure. I use mixed range pickup brass and get good results,
zero leading.

Bill

[mdnoel]

Smlekid, You probably won't believe this but about 3 years ago. I had the same problem with the same lee cast bullet and same lube, identical to your situation. I shoot every week with 8 friends who are very well seasoned in the sport. These are older men that have been casting, loading and shooting competition most of thier life. Smart guys! I took all thier advice and tried everything under the sun. I was loading over Win 231 and tried many different loads. Nothing seemed to correct the problem. I cast, load and shoot an average of 300 to 400 rounds a week and have done so for years so I consider myself somewhat experienced but I'll have to admit it had me completely dumbfounded. After quite sometime and many rounds of ammo I was ready to chuck the mold when for some reason I purchased a Lee Factory Crimp Die and presto, the problem went away. Now don't ask me why this worked, I too had tried everything from a light crimp to a heavy crimp, sometimes with better results but could not completely eliminate the problem and it may not solve your problem but it worked for me. Like I said I used the same bullet tumble lubed it and some times maybe 2 out of 10 bullets, more or less would tumble. Since that I have purchased a Lee Factory Crimp Die for every caliber that I cast and load. It might be a cheap fix.

[243winxb]

When a Lee Tumble Lube bevel base bullet is oversize by .003" or more, it is sized down by the barrel or die. This sizing deforms the base of the bullet. As the bullet exits the muzzle its base is no longer square to the muzzle. This lets gas escape on one side of the bullet as the other side is still in contact with the muzzle. The bullet becomes unstable and tumbles.

[918v]

I would shoot is as cast unless that size is too big to chamber.

[plumbshotsam]

I have been watching this thread and learning. I was having a similar problem with Lee 124gr TL TC in my Beretta 9m (92fs) with six out of ten tumbling with 3.9 grns Bullseye. Today I went out and fired 30 for 30 with no tumble and very nice patterns. (for me!)
I used only once fired Speer cases, full length sized and deprimed with a Lee .357 /38 special sizing die.

I used the Lee 38/357 powder through expanding die to "JUST KISS" the neck of the case.

I did not push the slugs through the 9mm (356) bullet sizing die after casting (as I usually do)

One healthy coating of liquid alox dried overnight with the same powder charge.

Set and lightly crimped with the 9mm seating/crimping die.

After reading the posts here, I closely examined my cases and saw that the 9mm full length sizing die would make the cases a size that when I pushed the bullet into it I could see a very light bulge in the case. Using the 38/357 gave it that extra "smidge" that when I dropped the Aloxed bullets onto the cases, they just pushed so nicely, and obviously left enough "meat" on the bullet to properly engage the riflings and spin it properly. My Beretta had no problem with the slightly larger cases and all cycled and went well. Clean up at the end of the session showed no leading and I plan to turn out a few more boxes to back up my findings.

Thanks to all for your ideas and suggestions.

[MtGun44]

"I did not push the slugs through the 9mm (356) bullet sizing die after casting (as I usually do)"
this would fix it, all by itself, in most situations.

this is usually the problem, too small. If you are sizing to .356 and getting yawing boolits, switch
to .357 or .358 diam and make sure that the brass isn't sizing down the boolit.

Also - if you are measuring this with calipers you have no real idea what is going on since they
are accurate to only .001 +/- You really have to have a good .0001 reading micrometer to
get the dimensions under control.

As to the person that reported that the miraculous Lee Factory Crimp die solved
his 9mm problems.. . . . . . . well, I doubt that was the actual fix since it is just
a TC die with a sizing ring and on non-tapered case cartridges (9mm is tapered)
it has been found by many to size down their boolits in the cases and cause
undersize problems. Since the 9mm is tapered, the sizing ring will only hit the
bottom of the case, so shouldn't inadvertently size the boolit smaller than
intended. This die is rarely responsible for causing problems in the
9mm, but similarly - it is really only acting like a TC die as far as the boolit is
concerned, so it is tough to see how that fixed a yawing problem. By the way,
the boolits do not tumble - the yaw slightly.

Bill

[hpeach]

to add to the discussion- I spent several months, and gobs of ammo trying to out smart the 9mm. It even became known as the evil caliber. Similar troubles as well as some leading. After trying several things, all mentioned above, I tried powder coating. It seemed that all "store bought" ammo was copper clad, and maybe the powder coat would approach that solution. Guess what- all the troubles went away, I can now use a variety of powders/loadings with the
124 gr bullet, and the caliber now responds to "tuning" for best groups. Perhapsnoot the answer for you, but it worked in spades for me. Good Luck, and don't quit till you beat it.

[.5mv^2]

My Kel tec 9 mm tumbled lead bullets sized .358 using w231, about half tumbled at 40' I switched to unique and the amount of tumbling decreased. I then tried wsf and it doesn't tumble.

[Boolseye]

Howdy,
I always offer the same thing on threads with this subject–the write-ups I did after a couple of years working out the kinks with this bullet (Lee 124 TLTC). PM me if you want the material. Full disclosure: I sold the mold during the madness, and eventually replaced it with the standard lube version.
-BE

[JeffG]

sorry I should have added a 0 to make it a 380 die I have been loading for another 9mm with a phat barrel and was using a 380 flr die my OAL is 1.130" fits and feeds fine through my magazines
I'll back the crimp off a bit to I think

I can go up to 1.15 OAL on my S&W SD9 but typical have it at about 1.147. Any idea if you can go longer than 1.13? That does look like a lot of crimp.

[Tar Heel]

1. 9mm's use a taper crimp, not a roll crimp. The case correctly head-spaces on the case mouth when using a taper crimp. Ditch the roll crimp. That's for revolver cartridges.
2. Use a slower propellant like AA#7
3. If you are shooting a Glock with Polygonal Rifling, don't shoot cast bullets. Use jacketed bullets.

The 9mm can be real prissy with cast bullets. Be ready to work.

That's my 3 pence worth mate.

[MtGun44]

Switch to Lee 356 120 TC, size to .357 or .358, air cooled wheel weight alloy,
NRA 50-50 or LBT soft blue lube. This works for me in all my 9mms (Astra,
Browning, Beretta, KelTek, two Sigs).

Bill

[Dakotared]

I had same problem http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?202688-Need-more-speed I went to blue dot powder and have had grate things ever since.