Blackhorn 209 in 375 H&H

[Willbird]

I was not really sure where to put this info, for the direction I am going with this idea it will involve both muzzle loaders and Paper patched bullets.

The idea is to build a muzzle loader, either a 38 or a 40 that will fire a paper patched bullet with a decent BC.
So that more of the energy expended in firing the bullet actually arrives at the target.

The bullets will be paper patched to a dia that will allow loading from the muzzle, the powder ignition will then bump them up to groove dia, just like the scheutzan shooters did as I understand it.

So to do some ground work on this I cast up some 375449 bullets, I cast them in pure lead because that was what was in my RCBS promelt, I considered using WW but figured what the heck, lets see what happens. That bullet from my mold drops out at 268 grains, it measures .377 dia. These were fired as cast (no paper patch).

My rifle is a post 64 model 70 in 375 H&H.

I poured a case full of BH209 flush to the mouth and got about 65 grains by weight in there, I reduced that to 60 grains by weight to be able to seat a bullet. That would be roughly 85 grains of volume measure.

I did not lube size the bullets, I merely hand seated some lyman gas checks on them, and smeared some felix lube on them by hand. and seated them so the gas check was about to the base of the neck.

Velocity for 4 shots was as follows
2098
2103
2116
2072

When setting seating depth my first round was to a shorter overall length and it's velocity was 2119

I do not yet have the proper height stands to allow me to properly crono and shoot for groups off sandbags so my shots were fired with my elbows resting on my bench, all 5 shots went into 2" at 75 yards.

All things considered this is very interesting, next I need to find a method to make a bore dia paper patched bullet to try so that I can ensure the BH209 powder will bump up a bullet like black powder does, I think due to the fact that it seems to wrk great in a 50 caliber with a Hornady Great Plains bullet that it will work fine.

Also I fired a total of 6 shots in excess of 2000 fps with gas check bullets cast of pure lead...there was a tiny bit lead in the bore near the muzzle that came out with a tight patch, I would not have been surprised if the first shot leaded the barrel from breech to muzzle

Bill

[phatman]

Hi Bill,

I would have thought that it would lead the barrel terribly. In fact I would have bet money on it. Glad I was not there..LOL

Looks like the Lube and the gas check did a very good job indeed.

[Willbird]

I have no doubt that a few more rounds would have filled the bore with lead :-).

Bill

[303Guy]

... a few more rounds would have filled the bore with leadMaybe not. These boolits were 'lube patched'. No reason why the boolit cannot ride a film of lube all the way to the muzzle, specially if a lube deposit is left behind by each shot.

[StarMetal]

Will,

That is very interesting. I wish we'd get the Blackhorn 209 in my area. I thought those were very decent velocities you got too. Little bit more work and you'll have a humdinger of a load.

Joe

[Willbird]

Well Joe it was an experiment to see if a decent qty of BH209 could propel a 38ish bullet weighing 250-300 grains over 2000 fps. next up is some bore sized paper patched bullets :-).

It has given me the itch to develop a groove size paper patch bullet solution for that rifle too :-).

My dad did a lot of cast bullet work with that rifle, he swore there were a couple magic calibers that could run just as many fps with cast bullets as with jacketed ones. Keep in mind that he was born into and lived all of his life restrained by the "old rules" about cast bullets. The ones we now know we can bend and even break :-).

Well those two "magic" calibers as far as he was concerned were 22 hornet and 375 H&H.

Dad liked having a cast bullet solution for every gun he owned that you could reload for, and he felt that a 375 H&H could be a decent hunting caliber even if you were forced to use only cast bullets. Decent in that it could and does make just as much horsepower with cast bullets..........without having any special tricks to get it done.

Bill

[303Guy]

Well those two "magic" calibers as far as he was concerned were 22 hornet and 375 H&H.I like your Dad's thinking! I had formed the same opinion just recently after playing around with the 22 hornet quite a bit. I would add the 30-30 to that list.

[BerdanIII]

Willbird,

Write up your experiences with Blackhorn 209 in the .375 H&H and send them in to the Cast Bullet Association for publication in The Fouling Shot. There have been few/no articles on this powder since it came out and I think the membership would benefit from your tests. There have been several articles on hunting with cast in the .375 H&H and most of the loads used a caseful (thereabouts) of 4831. The authors didn't feel themselves to be under-gunned at all. If I remember correctly, the velocities they were getting weren't too far from yours.

[Willbird]

There will be more to the story here in a few weeks. I would hesitate to recommend anybody try those loads as I have absolutely no idea how much pressure they generate.

Bill

[phatman]

Now that I can answer.

I went to the Blackhorn 209 website and they have load data for a lot of old cartridges including pressures.
I found another sight , but I didn't save it, that the fellow loaded his 45/120 about the same way as you did your 375. He got over 1750 fps with a 540 grain bullet!!!

One possible problem however, there is a chance of BH209 being corrosive in a wet climate since it does have sulfur compounds in its make up. There has been some discussion of that.

I'm going to give it a go with my old 43 Mauser and maybe even an old Martini Henry. Just got to order casings for them.

Cheers, John

[Willbird]

Now that I can answer.

I went to the Blackhorn 209 website and they have load data for a lot of old cartridges including pressures.
I found another sight , but I didn't save it, that the fellow loaded his 45/120 about the same way as you did your 375. He got over 1750 fps with a 540 grain bullet!!!

One possible problem however, there is a chance of BH209 being corrosive in a wet climate since it does have sulfur compounds in its make up. There has been some discussion of that.

I'm going to give it a go with my old 43 Mauser and maybe even an old Martini Henry. Just got to order casings for them.

Cheers, John

BUT they do not have data for a 375 H&H filled with a mildly compressed load of BH209. Pressures seemed mild in the 6 rounds I fired. The loads they have for 38/55 show almost 30,000 PSI being generated by 23 grains by volume.

[BerdanIII]

I think your .375 load of 60.0 - BH209 - 268 gr bullet - 2100 fps is very safe.

Case capacities in cc's / grains water
.38-55 - 3.42 / 52.72
.45-100 Sharps Straight - 6.02 / 92.99
.375 H&H - 6.24 / 96.37

Even though the .38-55 is the same caliber, the case is only half as large as the .375. You ought to compare it with a cartidge with the same case capacity firing the same weight bullet.

The Blackhorn 209 data shows a .45-100 SS load of 60.0 - BH209 - 300-gr - 1936 fps - 23460 psi.

You're burning the same amount of powder with a 10% lighter bullet in a slightly larger case. There may be some pressure increase with a bottleneck case, but I would be surprised if your load reaches even 30000 psi (about factory .30-30 WCF level)

I found an article in the Fouling Shot in which the author's load was a 264-gr cast bullet with 76.0 grains of H4831.

If the primers aren't flattened and extraction is easy, I would think you're on solid ground. Were the case necks blackened? That would indicate a low-pressure load.