Frustrated

[chris in va]

I think these pictures speak for themselves.

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/4858/imgp48830004056.jpg (http://img709.imageshack.us/i/imgp48830004056.jpg/) http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/imgp48830004056.jpg/1/w320.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img709/imgp48830004056.jpg/1/)

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/3844/imgp48820125410.jpg (http://img685.imageshack.us/i/imgp48820125410.jpg/) http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/imgp48820125410.jpg/1/w320.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img685/imgp48820125410.jpg/1/)

All the casting, smelting, slugging, reload recipes...and I still get this. 25 yards out of my CZ 75 and HiPoint carbine. Both shoot great with regular FMJ rounds as they always have.

[RobS]

Give us a bit more information: What are you loading (bullet and weight).........with what powder/charge, and bullet lube. I would be frustrated with that grouping as well.

[mike in co]

improper size/lack of velocity/alloy hardness/


my cz's are vary accurate with cast.


so tell us what you are doing

alloy/lube/size
load/oal
mike in co

[chris in va]

Please tell me what cast you are using in your CZ that works!

W231
Lee TL TC boolit 125gr
Chambers at 1.045oal...anything more and it sticks.
Towel dropped/water dropped
3.5/3.7/4.0gr 231 or Universal (different charge though)
BBL slugs out to .02 less than the cast boolit (can't remember the exact measurements).

Nothing works. I'm about fed up and very disappointed. Should I have opted for the LRN instead?

[RobS]

Do you have any leading in the barrel?.....With the shorter than standard COL you are under most books maximum charge, but I would try the minimum charge. My Lyman books says 2.9 grains of 231 with a 120 grain truncated bullet design.

You mentioned that your cast bullets are .02 larger than your groove diameter??? Did you mean .002, I am assuming?

I'm interested to see if you have leading though.

[Bass Ackward]

I think these pictures speak for themselves.

All the casting, smelting, slugging, reload recipes...and I still get this. 25 yards out of my CZ 75 and HiPoint carbine. Both shoot great with regular FMJ rounds as they always have.


Both guns huh?

Are you wearing long johns? :grin:

I ask because I thought those were my targets until I put mine on today. Brrrrrrrrrr

[Bob Krack]

I guess you are shooting 9MM? What lube, what alloy, what crimp? Looks like some keyholes?

Ya might try a little less powder charge?

More information please.

[405]

Agree with RobS- loads seem a little hot to start with.
Looking at your targets I think I see, scattered amongst the holes, wildly yawing bullets??

Since this is drastic instability you might try something a lot different from what you are doing now. Since you say the Jbullets shoot well you might try in that direction with the cast.... just at a little lower pressure/velocity

The bullet design should be OK

Here's what I'd try if mine:

Use Lyman #2 alloy or even a little harder @ 15-20 BHN
Size bullet to groove diameter
Load for max bullet neck tension... use mild taper crimp maybe
Make sure cases are all same length
Drop charge levels down to suggested starting loads
Shoot at 15 yard bull target.... use careful wrist rest (sand bag)

[markinalpine]

Are those dessert plates or dinner plates? :kidding:

Mark :bigsmyl2:

[Recluse]

Chris,

For starters, I have miserable luck with 9mm cast, and have had for more years and several decades than I care to remember.

So, with that being said, I bough the little Lee TL124RN mould (2-cav, I don't care for six-bangers as a general rule, which makes me the odd guy out around here :)) and did up several hundred boolits using pretty much straight WWs with a dash of tin thrown in.

I cast 'em up hot--over 800F--and water dropped them. Dried them with a blow dryer, tumble-lubed with JPW/LLA/MS, let dry, sized with the push-through, and did a second light coat of tumble-lube.

Loaded up for all 9mm guns I have (Taurus 92, Sig 226, HKP7, Browning FN High-Power).

As a general rule, for all of the guns, best load I came up with was 4.1 grains of AA#2 ignited by a Winchester Small Pistol primer.

And at 25 yards, hand-held (only way I'll shoot a pistol), my targets and results looked pretty much just like yours.

I cleaned up the guns, put in my AA#5 FMJ reloads, shot, and the groups reduced to less than a fourth of what you've shown us.

So don't feel too bad--I also have miserable, sorry luck with 9mm cast, and rarely even cast for that caliber anymore. It just isn't worth the frustration and profane swearing I end up doing.

This is supposed to be fun, but 9mm is the only caliber I just plain suck at having any success with so far as lead projectiles go.

:coffee:

[Johnch]

Have you slugged your Hi Point ?

Mine has a .358 - .359 bore depending on how I measure the slug

I have had pretty decent luck with Water droped WW and 3.8 gr of HP 38 (WW 231) and the Lee standard lube 120 Gr TC boolit sized to .358
And it feeds 100% at that size
Luckely it drops at .358 from the 6 gang mould I have

John

[mooman76]

Heck those are good. At least they are on paper. I've had guns that I couldn't get on paper at 25y. I guess the pictures don't exactly speak for themselves with all the questions. My guess would be like others are saying you are pushing them too hard or undersized bullets or combination of both.

[bbs70]

I would try a different powder.
When I had my 9mms, 231 didn't work too well with cast.
Its been a while since I had the 9mms, and I forgot what powder I used.

My 40 S&W shoots great with n340 and cast boolits, but with j bullets it likes 231.

[chris in va]

Alright, so drop the charge to 2.9 and still water drop for a harder boolit?

Here's my barrel after 50 rounds of lead tests, and a final 6 rounds of FMJ just so I could confirm it wasn't the gun causing it. Seems like a lot of buildup to me.

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/2448/imgp48888405835.jpg (http://img704.imageshack.us/i/imgp48888405835.jpg/)

[Blammer]

I would measure a boolit before you load it in the brass, then load it in the brass per usual, then pull the bullet and measure it again.

Perhaps your loading dies are sizing the boolit in the case, causing them to be undersized when you fire them.

[405]

Yep looks like crud in there. The one thing I did notice is the rifling does look like it is cast bullet friendly.

1) Use a Lewis Lead Remover, bronze wool, or Chore boy strands and get that out of there. :)

2)Try not to shoot so many rounds without cleaning during load testing.... it ruins evaluation of any subsequent loads.

3)Try not to mix cast with Jbullet shooting during load testing.

I don't like tumble lube... some shooters do... so you might also try regular type.... If I read your first post correctly you are using tumble lube on the Lee bullet?

No matter how good many cast, plain base pistol loads are.... I've always had some leading... sometimes very little, sometimes a lot. Sometimes the bore surface condition dictates how much. Not unusual for some at least. Clean often to prevent build up. Even with moderate leading, I've shot up to 150 pistol rounds and still maintained decent accuracy. So, leading may not be the primary culprit in the unstable bullet condition. But, a longer shank/longer bearing surface style bullet could help offset the instability especially as lead builds up.

[HeavyMetal]

I'll have to get behind Blammer on this one!

I don't think there's a die set made these days for auto loading pistols that doesn't have a taper crimp in the seating die, or worse, a seperate "Factory Crimp" die!

The real problem is that most people adjust the die till the can "see" the crimp. With the taper crimp if you can see it with the naked eye it is way past to much crimp!

With this arrangement for the crimp cast boolits are almost always being "jacked up" in the seating die. The other posibility is the sizing die is to tight and the boolits are sizing to a much smaller diameter when seated.

Heck the die set could be doing both!

Start at ground zero and clean the sizing die then size a case and measure the inside diameter before expanding. Then check your expander button, if it's more than .002 smaller than your cast boolit you got a problem!

If this die checks out move on to the crimp die and back the crimp all the way off until you can see belled case mouth after the boolit is seated! Then measure the case right under the belled portion of the case and adjust your taper crimp a 1/16 of a turn at a time until you get the mouth of the case .002 smaller than the previous measurement you got under the belled case mouth.

TA DA you have taper crimp! now go try your load and see what happens!

[MtGun44]

Undersized boolit. Leading and tumbling boolits is VERY common with 9mm.

To fix:

1) clean the bore of lead
2) slug the bore.
3) use a boolit that is .001 larger than the bore diam with a good lube.


Problem solved.

Also, I do recommend the Lee 124 TC conventional lube, not tumble lube.

Bill

[yondering]

Are you putting enough flare on the case mouth before seating your boolits? Blammer's suggestion is good, to pull a few boolits and measure the diameter.

You aren't using one of those stupid Lee Factory Crimp dies are you? If you are, throw it away, and see the difference in your groups.

You said you're water dropping your boolits, but didn't say what alloy. Wheel weights? Pure lead? Linotype?

I'm guessing somehow your bullets are sealing the bore, allowing gas cutting and severe leading, to the point where leading is bad enough that bullets are just rattling down the bore.

BTW, firing jacketed rounds after lead may be fine for mild leading, but if you have severe leading, stop doing that! Jacketed bullets through a severely leaded bore can cause very high pressure spikes.

If it was me, I'd find/borrow/buy some cast bullets with a normal lube groove instead of tumble lube, and try that for starters. You're not starting off with the best lube in the world, which may not be helping things.

[RobS]

I've always started from the minimum powder charge and worked up. Most of the time one will find that the accuracy starts to tighten up as you increase the charge. Once your accuracy starts to head south then you've gone too far. I usually work at .5 grain increments until I find the accuracy fall off then I back it back up and tweek the load if needed.

You do have leading.........and try to not run copper and lead at the same time. Copper fowling if there is any in the barrel will give lead a surface to adhere to and if you have leading do not fall into the thought that a jacketed bullet will remove the lead. It merely presses it into the grooves of the bore (creating more stress on the barrel) and then smears it towards the muzzle in thin layers. Yes a gas check bullet does have a copper gas check, but don't confuse this either as the small gap between the gas check and the bullet gives an area or "groove" for scrapped lead to build up in as it exits the barrel unlike a smooth copper jacket bullet.

The advise on the cast bullets being swaggered down in the case is a real issue, but if you are water quenching the bullets then you will not need to worry a whole lot as they will be hard enough to stretch the brass without swaggering down the bullet. If in fact your bullets are .001 to .002 over the groove diameter then a water quenched bullet will work just fine as it fits the barrel and you will not need obturation to help seal the barrel from gas blow by. It would be a good idea though to seat and crimp one then pull the bullet to find out for sure.

If you have a Lee Factory Crimp die this could be the problem..........it was never intended for cast bullets. The carbide ring is to smooth out the case when loading jacketed bullets which are smaller than a cast bullets by .001 or more depending on what you are wanting your cast bullets at. This is a huge problem as you will end up with a swaggered down lead bullet at a jacketed diameter. You do not have to throw the die away if you modify it. I have done this to all the Lee Factory Crimp dies; it is a simple fix as I just cut the carbide ring off with a chop saw, but you do have to be carefull not to take too much as you can ruin the die.

Also crimping is another possiblity as one has already mentioned. The easier way to find out if you have enough crimp is to take your barrel out like you did in the picture and start crimping a little bit at a time until the round will slide into the chamber, fitting as it should, and then when you turn the barrel upside down it falls back out.

I would look at some of the suggestions here, keep the same lube for now, assuming the bullet is .002 over your groove diameter the bullet should be ok, and lower your powder charge to 2.9 grains. According to the Lyman manual your bullet charged with 2.9 grains of 231 will give you about the same pressures as a 45 ACP round that being 17,000 CUP so everything should work just fine. The velocity for this round should be around 950 to 1000 fps as literature states.

Keep us posted

Hope this will get you moving.

[chris in va]

Very interesting, thanks guys.

Here's another wrench in the machinery. I just discovered these TL boolits will chamber and hand eject just fine at 1.095. I tried this when I first got the mold and they stuck, now they don't? Like they say in Fargo, "So there's that...you know".

The first TC bullets I bought from the store stuck badly until 1.045COL so I just ass-u-med these were the same. Go figure. I wonder now if that has any affect on accuracy.

Oh and to answer the questions, I tried 8 different combinations of FCD/non, powder charge and hardness, but I didn't clean the barrel between tests. It was effin freezing out there today and I was doing good just to load the darn things in the mag.

Plenty of flare, just enough to seat the bullet without shaving.

The cast boolits are .002 larger than the rifling. I'll check the pulled boolit though.

To be honest I just want something to plink cheaply with instead of buying $49/500 FMJ bullets. Wasn't aware this would be an uphill battle.

[Recluse]

You're not starting off with the best lube in the world, which may not be helping things.

I must have missed it--what kind of lube is he using?

:coffee:

[mike in co]

With the shorter than standard COL

.



STANDARD COL ????are you talking MAX col ??

he is under the listed col in lee book for 125 lead of 1.1 and 1.15

[mike in co]

Please tell me what cast you are using in your CZ that works!

W231
Lee TL TC boolit 125gr
Chambers at 1.045oal...anything more and it sticks.
Towel dropped/water dropped
3.5/3.7/4.0gr 231 or Universal (different charge though)
BBL slugs out to .02 less than the cast boolit (can't remember the exact measurements).

Nothing works. I'm about fed up and very disappointed. Should I have opted for the LRN instead?

4.0 is an over charge at that col....39kpsi.........

[geargnasher]

Looks like most of the 50-yard groups I've shot with cast boolits in my Swedish Mauser!

Tumbling? Looks like a few keyholes here and there. It's about all been covered, but I might reiterate that, for whatever reason (possibly sized when seated or squeezed down by the crimp when fired), you boolits are undersized entering the barrel and are allowing the combustion gasses to cut past and spray the barrel ahead of the boolit with molten lead mist. This mist is ironed on and accumulates rapidly in the bore, thus the thick flaky buildup in your bore, and most likely the cause of your "patterns".

Could you give us a pic of some of the boolits you've cast for a little critiquing? Sometimes boolit bases that are slightly rounded won't shoot straight, although I've been amazed at times how little nose and front driving band defects matter with short-range pistol. Bases ARE critical though, just as important to accuracy as a good, sharp, muzzle crown, and for the same reasons.

Gear

[RobS]

Mike in CO

I was talking about what is written in the Lyman manual for a 120 grain Truncated bullet which is the closest to what he is shooting:

The literature states 1.110" COL

[mike in co]

inspite of everything said here, i shoot the 135 pointed group buy at 1000 fps from my cz 75/85's and get round holes at 100 yds( i was just checking for stability, not "target" shooting).

i size them at 357...and use a bell removing die in the fourth step( its a crimp die, but i just take the bell out...aprox .001 "crimp")

i'm pretty sure i was using accurate 5 for powder

mike in co

[chris in va]

I just measured a few boolts and they all came out to be .357 at the base, .356 in the first lube/driving band. Lee apparently set up the mold to do that.

I'll admit a few don't have perfectly sharp bases, but it still doesn't account for all my shots going wild like that. The vast majority have nice defined edges.

Seriously, this gun is laser accurate with FMJ so you can imagine how irritating it is for me to aim at a can at 50 yards and completely miss it through a whole magazine. It's like someone put diesel fuel in my Corvette.

These were done last night, towel dropped.
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/6865/imgp4890.jpg (http://img406.imageshack.us/i/imgp4890.jpg/)

[WHITETAIL]

All of what has been said is good advice.
And I would only add, Start at the begining.
And check the length of the brass.
Check the size of the boolet.
Go to the mid range of powder.
Even change powders.
What does the loading manual
tell you?:coffeecom

[sdelam]

I would measure a boolit before you load it in the brass, then load it in the brass per usual, then pull the bullet and measure it again.

Perhaps your loading dies are sizing the boolit in the case, causing them to be undersized when you fire them.


This is the problem I had with some 45's. leading caused by too much crimp. reduced the crimp, increased the case flair and they shoot great now.

[TAWILDCATT]

lee dies for pistol are all roll crimp.the FCD is fine for rifle.I have a high point compact in 9 mm.it wont shot lead yet.I called and was told lead is not recomended as the rifling is made for jacket.the gun is very accurate with jac.some say hard bullets work.why people dont use bullseye which is made for pistol I dont know I use 700X ,which is very close to bullseye.I shot 38/45.tumbling bullets usually mean to slow but it could mean damage.

[RobS]

lee dies for pistol are all roll crimp.the FCD is fine for rifle.I have a high point compact in 9 mm.it wont shot lead yet.I called and was told lead is not recomended as the rifling is made for jacket.the gun is very accurate with jac.some say hard bullets work.why people dont use bullseye which is made for pistol I dont know I use 700X ,which is very close to bullseye.I shot 38/45.tumbling bullets usually mean to slow but it could mean damage.

Wrong on this one..........the revolver type dies i.e. 357mag/38 special, 44mag/44 special, 45 colt, 454 casull etc. are in fact roll crimp the rest of the auto feeding rounds come with a taper crimp die i.e. 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 auto etc.

[chris in va]

What does the loading manual
tell you?

Not much on cast boolits. It just mentions wadcutters will start to tumble past 60 yards due to the design and recommends semiwadcutters anything past that. doesn't help me though.

I guess at this point considering the twist rate is high on 9mm I could try some water dropped at 2.9gr of 231 and see if that helps. Everyone tells me 4.0 is too hot. Like I said my CZ seems to chamber fine at 1.095 so I'll try not crimping at all or a light crimp, no FCD and see if that gets the rounds in the black again. Those suckers are gonna be mouse fart loads though.

Please tell me 45 doesn't have all this issue because I cast 1000 230gr LRN a couple weeks ago, towel dropped. If I get the same buckshot pattern, I'm gonna be very upset.

EDIT: I just slugged my barrel again. .355/.347. My cast boolits are .357 at the base. Looks like my boolit fit is good.

[RobS]

You'll be fine with the 45. I use mid burners like unique and have no problems. I've used just about everything for powder in the 45 auto and it did well. The 45 auto is real easy to load for as the pressures are way down and with that the plateform is real easy to cast for.

I don't think because it is a truncated bullet that it will tumble though as I have shot a 45 caliber truncated bullet design from my lever action out to 200 yards and can hit with my revolver at 100 yards. I usually don't shoot much past 35 yards with the 45 auto, but would have no problems putting rounds in a 3-4 inch group at 50 yards from a bench.

Like I said you can start low on the charge and then work up.

[deltaenterprizes]

Try Accurate Arms #7 powder, 7 gr with a 125 gr bullet.

[TAWILDCATT]

My lee dies have roll crimp,some one said they have taper also.but my dies are at least 20 yrs old,may be 30.I still would use roll crimp as I never had a failure to feed.:coffee: