My new (to me) M1917 Enfield

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/36BEAF825B756E0/standard.jpg
There is a bit of tiger stripe to the walnut, but it didn't come out in this photo. Looking at it obiquely it will show. Nice piece of wood and in good shape for being 87 years old! It had never been on a rifle before.

It was pretty dry and dusty from being stacked in various warehouses all these years, and there were a few ding and dents from being palletized and handled. I soaked the inletting with a 50/50 mix of paint thinner and BLO twice. Externally I brushed on the same mix and let it set overnight. The next afternoon I used 2/0 steel wool soaked in the mix and scrubbed it down. Then it got wiped off with paper towels and let it set for 4 days.

http://www.fototime.com/25E47382292E8CD/standard.jpg
A Remington made the action and barrel. However, the rifle is a hodge-podge. The bolt is Rem and Eddystone, triggerguard is Winchester, Rem and Eddystone as is the 3 pieces of wood:grin:

http://www.fototime.com/82D49C5E1A41BD7/standard.jpg
The action looks brand new. There is just faint wearing of the phosphate finish in the lug raceways. Has a bright shiney bore and the barrel finish is like new. The only fly in the ointment is that the front handguard is a lighter colored wood like beech. It's noticeable, but not too bad. Altogether a pretty good looking old warhorse.

..............Buckshot

[NVcurmudgeon]

Buckshot, Nice looking 1917. My No. 4 Lee Enfield has the same light colored upper handguard situation, and I have even replaced the original "L" rear sight with a milled ladder replacement. If I were an extremist collector it might be a worry, but it must be remembered that arsenals were trying to get working rifles into the hands of troops. A "hodgepodge" rifle is just as authentic, or perhaps more so, than one that is all one manufacturer down to the last band screw. As long as a rifle is all GI, if it was good enough to pass inspection at Springfield, Mauser, or Fazakerly it's good enough for me.

[JDL]

A Yesteryear Warrior for sure. Great looking!!!-JDL

[Four Fingers of Death]

Welcome aboard, I shoot a Remington M17 in Military Service Rifle competition in Australia. Great rifle and very accurate. I have aways wanted a Winchester, but my Remington always delivers the goods.

I'm keen to shoot the match !00-300 Yds with cast, but my personal circumstances prevent this at the moment.

I also have a P14 303 Eddystone which was used by the Dutch Navy during WW2 and a P14 303 Aussie Sniper rifle which some pleb has sporterised! Boo Hoo!

I carried SMLE No Mk3* 303 while I was a school cadet and while I never have been motivated to own 303s, I have ended up with a restored 1907SMLE (can't remember what mark) complete with mag cut off and volley sights, which looks like a new sporting rifle it is so well done. The restorer spoilt the collector value, but its very nice. I also ended up owning a virtually new No4 Mk2 (yes I have a Singer sight to go on it, yes Simon at Laurence Ordnance in Sydney still sellls them for $50).

These mil rifles seem to have a charisma which sucks you in.

I almost forgot, I picked up a No4. Mk1 (T) sniper with 1932 Mk1 scope in it's original tin last week.

I'm broke and my locker is buldging. I can't resist these rotten war horses.

[Buckshot]

.............Mick,don't know why I never picked up a M1917 before now. I had an 01 FFL from '82 till 2000, and the re-importation laws were relaxed in '86. They came flooding in. You had your pick of Winchester, Remington, or Eddystone. Naturally the Winchester was always a bit more money, but I think that was just a 'Name' thing. Eddystone was kind of hobbled for 2 reasons. One is that they were common because they made so many (plus the major maker of spare parts) and the other was the cracked action ring thing.

One of my shooting buddies had a mint Winchester M17 given to him. He somewhat messed it up by smoothing the stock and then applying Tru-Oil, yet it was still a fine shooter.

I haven't even shot this rifle yet. However, I have 50 rounds of ammo loaded for it (Ly311284, 217gr, 23.0 H4198 + Dacron) and it'll be going to Winnemucca this month!

................Buckshot

[Four Fingers of Death]

.............Mick,don't know why I never picked up a M1917 before now. I had an 01 FFL from '82 till 2000, and the re-importation laws were relaxed in '86. They came flooding in. You had your pick of Winchester, Remington, or Eddystone. Naturally the Winchester was always a bit more money, but I think that was just a 'Name' thing. Eddystone was kind of hobbled for 2 reasons. One is that they were common because they made so many (plus the major maker of spare parts) and the other was the cracked action ring thing.

One of my shooting buddies had a mint Winchester M17 given to him. He somewhat messed it up by smoothing the stock and then applying Tru-Oil, yet it was still a fine shooter.

I haven't even shot this rifle yet. However, I have 50 rounds of ammo loaded for it (Ly311284, 217gr, 23.0 H4198 + Dacron) and it'll be going to Winnemucca this month!

................Buckshot

Its funny, but I have never heard of anyone who cracked a receiver ring on an Eddystone out here, but no doubt there were so many of them they probably just ended up in the waste bin. I have seen lots and lots of eddystones converted to alll sorts of things, notably 308 Norma Mags. Nine out often M17s and P14s here seem to be eddystones.

One of the reasons that eddystones are not so favoured apart from not being a reconisable name is that the action is a bit shorter I'm told.

The Winchesters are reported to be a bit better built and as a rule are supposed to be a tad more accurate. All of the sniper rifles were built on Winchesters. I personally don't think there is much in it myself. The finish of the winchesters that I have seen (which is not many) is better.

I laways wanted to build a 375H&H on one of these actions and have been offered a Remington action for it. It is foolish to do I suppose as I can buy a brand new Winchester Mod 70 o similar for less money, but I still fancy it.

Good shooting,
Mick

[Buckshot]

...............Mick, apparently the reason I heard for the number of Eddystones with cracked action rings was that the barrels were installed with air impact wrenches? I doubt that this is what cracked them as it would seem that they'd have had to have gone through more inspections before being accepted. I 'd think so anyway. However, they WERE screwed on tight enough so that a couple generations of gunsmiths were advised to turn a relief cut in the barrel a few thousandths of an inch ahead of the action ring. This was to relieve the torque pressure on the action from the barrel shoulder when removed.

That 340 Weatherby that my daughter's co-worker wanted me to look at was on an Eddystone action and it WAS cracked right through to the barrel.

..................Buckshot

[Four Fingers of Death]

Bugger! Yeah my brain is slowly dredging up the details, it is when the bbls are removed that they crack I think. I remember one gunsmith I spoke to years ago told me with all military and very old rifles that he removed bbls from (unless the barrel needed to be retained) he used to cut them off and drill back so that he drilled right through the old chamber, opening it up and then drilled a hole from above through the bbl just in front of the receiver to use a rod in, threw them in a screw top tin full of bulk WD40 and left them for a few days before putting the action in a vice, rod through the hole and attempting to unscrew the bbl. If it resisted he threw it back in the WD40 and left it until he noticed it a few days later and he tried again. never saw him do it, but he was a strange old coot and had some funny ways about him. He was as skinny as a rake and his workshop was so crowed with rifles, bbls, parts, tools, junk, machinery I could only just fit through and had trouble following him around his shop. He'd be gone now, I'm 57 and he was an old man when I was in my 20s.

Interesting old guy though.

Mick.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The incidence of bad receivers was certainly higher in Eddystone Enfields than those from the other plants, but I don't think there was much difference in the good ones, and I don't believe there was any difference in the action length. My only detailed experience was with a .303 P14 Eddystone, which I converted to .300 H&H Magnum with only the slight work on the feed ramp which writers like Dunlap and Macfarland describe - and work on the sides of the magazine lips which they don't, plus making my own bronze magazine-cum-floorplate.

There were two metallurgical problems that I know of, and either could be brought out by that impact-wrench barrel tightening. Eddystone receivers were sometimes glass-hard and could be brittle. Others were "burnt", which means they suffered excessive heat in the heat-treatment operation. These were quite soft but extremely granular, and my unconfirmed opinion is that these are the ones that most often used to crack. I found that the receiver ring drilled with two long, wiry chips, and the amputated ears, which I had for testing, were sound. I don't believe it counts as a pleb job, for the rifle was extremely rough, with a stock that looked like it had been salvaged from the "Mary Rose".

[Four Fingers of Death]

G'Day Balistics, it's been a long time since I noticed one of your posts (my fault, I lost the board when it went to aimoo and seemed to have all sorts of trouble trying to get in.).

Nice conversion, something similar to what I had planned for the 375H&H.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Thanks for the welcome. The best tip I know in rifle design is that you must install the scope before you design your stock in detail. The trigger determines where and what shape the grip needs to be. The position and eye relief of the sight (especially a scope) determines where your eye needs to be. Mount the rifle with those parameters correctly fulfilled, and you have determined where your shoulder needs to be. Then fill in the space with wood.

[Buckshot]

.............I'd gotten my 1917 put together with the stock finished and thought about how nice it's be to take it to Winnemucca this year. I had some Lyman 311284's all lube-sized @ .309" for my 1903A1. Looking in my brass cabinet I found 50 rounds of once fired, fully prepped FC 30-06. I used my favorite load for the Springfield (23.0grs H4198 + Dacron) and loaded them up.

They engraved VERY well and the last 1/8" of bolt movement requires a bit more effort then I'd have liked but I went with that OAL. I dislike the real skinny front side blade, but to it's benefit it has a really superb trigger. Today competing in the 50 yard group competition, this totally unfired rifle put 4 rounds into a bit more then 0.75" and all 5 measured 1.05".

I'm very happy with the rifle. A fine addition to the arsenal.

.............Buckshot

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The only snag with this setup is that you can use a rifle like this for a very long time, without ever unloading it without firing. They day you do so, you might find the bullet plucked out by the end of the lands, and unburnt powder sprinkled around the inside of the action and chamber. What is the buck of a lifetime going to do then? Get up and make rude gestures at you, of course. You should practice unloading many times.

There is a possibility, if the rounds are uncrimped, that that last pressure on the lever is actually pushing the bullet a little deeper. There isn't automatically anything wrong with this, which some benchresters do, and believe is good for consistency - although they usually operate with lower neck tension. But you shouldn't be counting on safe pressure because it's been safe with another rifle or differently shaped bullet of the same weight, which let the powder space remain unreduced until firing.

[Buckshot]

[QUOTE=Ballistics in Scotland]The only snag with this setup is that you can use a rifle like this for a very long time, without ever unloading it without firing. They day you do so, you might find the bullet plucked out by the end of the lands, and unburnt powder sprinkled around the inside of the action and chamber. QUOTE]

Yup, Been there-Done that![smilie=l:

http://www.fototime.com/DC8DB1856E25CCB/standard.jpg
Thought I'd post the picture of the group. Via calipers it actually measured 1.056", so BruceB wasn't off by too much! Those 4 rounds measure .518", just in case anyone was interested.

The rifle had never been fired by me after putting it together. At Winnemucca it had 4-5 rounds put through it to get on paper at 50 yards and then this group was fired[smilie=w:

..........Buckshot

[Four Fingers of Death]

I been reading the Frank Marshall artice in the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual and looking at those sort of groups for too long! I gotta go and get a 311284 mould and I'll probably throw in a 311291. Mick.

[David R]

I have a 1917 enfield in the safe that I tried to shoot cast boolits out of a few years ago. Those were from a 311644 190 grain mold. I thought sinced it was the newest design, it HAD to shoot them. It wouldn't. I did get some groups but the front site was drifted Waaay to the left. Now I think I have to dig it out and try again. It does shoot jack*t*d 180 or 200 grain pretty well. I found another 30 cal mold I didn't even know I had, its a lyman 311466. About 151 grains or something like that with nothing but grease grooves. I have no use for this gun and cast boolits, but I think it would be nice to get it to shoot them. Since then I also aquired a .310 sizing die. This might help. I have a total of 4 30 cal molds, maybe if I try each boolit and see if it will shoot one of them.

I have no time or reason to do this, but I will anyhow.

[Buckshot]

..............DavidR, there could be several reasons your M17 isn't shooting cast so well. A lot can revolve around the bedding and/or pressure on the barrel. You have a long slenderish stock, 2 piece handguards a barrel band and a nosecap. Lots a possibilities there.

Mine has a very nice barrel that appears smooth and in good shape, but it is not mirror bright by any means, but again I can detect no pitting either. I really should slug the throat at least to see what I have. But since it shoots cast sized .309" so well, it's not something I'm going to place real high on the list to interfer with other more pressing stuff.

If you haven't cleaned the barrel well, this may have some bearing too. I mean scrubbed! I did this one with a brush and 0000 steel wool plus penetrating oil. It had been stored outside and the barrel had a film of rust.

..............Buckshot

[David R]

I will scrub the barrel, I ditched the barrel band, and all the wood a long time ago. Its free floated now. This project will not start till fall. For the summer I will be shooting 120 rounds a week in a shiloute (sp) match. 40 22-250, 40 44 mag or 32-20 for scoped pistol and 40 45 colt or 45 ACP for iron site pistol. This is gonna keep me busy through the summer. Next order from midway I am going to buy some of that stuff that takes a casting of the chamber and throat so I can see what is going on in there.

[David R]

I was shooting a bore riding 190 grain boolit. I poured a few 150 grain round nose lovern design (all lube grooves) and sized the first 4 grooves .310. I also tried a few 113 grain Lee soup cans both from straight lynotype. Groupes were in the 2" zone at 50 yards. I loaded them to what ever Lyman recomended to OAL, and only tried 20 grains of 2400. It looks like I have something to work with. I inspected the bore and I had cleaned the dickens out of it before I put it away. I also realized its a 2 groove barrel. It was fun to shoot the last 10 boolits I had loaded off hand. Gotta like those sights. Set for 400 yards, its right on @ 50. I think it has to be on 600 for 100 yards.

I have 50 more sized and lubed. Going to try sizing the soup cans to .312 just to see what happens. They drop at .313 to .314. The lyman ones are only .310.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I was given some 30cal 165Gn gascheck cast boolits that a friend who started the biggest cast boolit company in australia. They experimented for silouhette shooters, but decided that it was too much hassle with the gas checks. I loaded up some in my M17 in front of 17Gn 2400 and got a 3' (thats foot not inches) group at the range behind the jail (85yards). I will have to dig those out one day and have another go. :)

[David R]

I was fiddeling around some more with the Enfield. I was trying to find the proper seating depth with a 311466. With 4 lube grooves showing, I could push the boolit in so the rifling just touched the nose. The boolit is sized to .310". It went in kind of hard as I cammed the bolt down. When I removed it, I could see plain that the throat had made the driving bands shiny. I think if I had a .309 sizer, it would have slid right in up to the rifling. Should I load it just touching the riflilng? Move it back so it doesn't bind going into the throat (lead)? I was going to try sizing some Lee wadcutters to .312, but I can see now the case wouldn't fit into the chamber.

Thoughts?

I have one week to get this thing shooting as best I can.

[waksupi]

On several of my rifles that I shoot benchrest with alot, I resize the neck just enough to barely keep the bullet in the case. They are very loose. The bullets can generally be slid in and nearly out pretty easily. When they go in the chamber, they slide back into the neck, giving a load that is set out to the lands. Seems to work pretty well most of the time.

[Buckshot]

............David, the throat is a cylindrical portion ahead of the chambermouth with no rifling lands. The leade then is the area from which the lands appear until they have reached full height (or the grooves full depth). However you care to look at it. But they are 2 seperate features, just llike BORE and GROOVE.

Some rifles really don't have much of a throat to speak of and ditto a leade. The 45-70 chamber is an example. I have found it best to have the boolit engrave the lands and NOT touch or be marked by the throat. You can size to the throat usually without much trouble if your ammo is concentric. The boolit should then be barely marked by it's passage through the throat.

If on the otherhand the boolit had been seated catywumpus, it's possible for the edge of the throat at the chamberneck to snag it and scrape back some lead. That is assuming it doesn't push the slug back into the case. Neither has a positive effect on potential accuracy.

You should also check your size die. Just because it's marked .310" doesn't mean might not be a bit larger. A thousandth of an inch is a very tiny thing so in a production deal like Lyman is doing a .310" die may really size .3105" or something. That half thou is almost negligable except the more highly alloyed your slugs are, the more springback they are going to have.

Your die may be exactly .310" but you push in and eject a linotype alloy slug and it may come out very close to .311". Add in a possible manufacturing excess of .0005" or so and it will be tough to get it inot a .310" throat.

The throat does provide guidance to the slug, so it's good to get as nice a snug fit as possible, and have the ogive engraved or butted into the lands.

" .................I have one week to get this thing shooting as best I can."

Uh-Oh! Don't tell me you're going to turn into a pun'kin :-)!

..............Buckshot

[David R]

Thanks Buckshot and Waksupi for the explanatioin, now I can see why the bore riding boolit didn't work. Lotsa throat.

I can't shoot the 22-250 because my 57 grain boolits @ about 2400 went half way through the 1/2" cold rolled the chickens are made out of. I shot my first 5 chickens. When we saw the "dimples", I put the gun away. They looked like they had been shot with J*ck*t*d boolits.

I am going to load some just touching the rifling and see what happens.

[Char-Gar]

Two thoughts on the matters at hand;

1) You guys are forcing me to pull my Winchester 1917 out of the back of the safe. I bought it at a hock shop in Deming NM 9 years ago for $125.00. The metal and bore are pristine, but the stock looks like it was used as a Pit Bull's chew toy for a while. I have never fired it..bout time!

2) The 30 cal Loverin designs (311466 and 311467) have the top band smaller than the others. in the best of world (yea right) the top band will ride on top of the lands and the rest will be a nice tight fit in the throat. Therefore, if the top band will engrave on the lands without pushing the bullet too far back in the case that is a good thing.

I use 311467 in the Krag with good results. I only lube the bottom four grooves and put seat the case so I can put a light crimp on the case mouth on the band between the 4th and 5th lube groove. Works like a champ and gives me good accuracy. I am using a .311 sizer, but it produces .3117 bullets. Works fine.

[Buckshot]

........Charger, I don't know how much the chewed up stock bothers you but it sounds like a very nice rifle. I would order a new stock from GPC. The one I got was NOS having never been on a rifle. I know it was original production from the 19teens somewhere as it is marked for Eddystone. It had only a couple insignificant bruises from probably being palletized or shuffled around in racks over it's lifetime. There was one small chip in the buttstock right there where the buttplate bends over the top.

As you can see in the photos it is quite nice, and the price was VERY friendly. I forget exactly what it cost as I had to buy a bunch of stuff to complete it from triggerguard to buttplate including screws and sling loops. I'm thinking the stock was like $30? The rifle DESERVES a new stock :-)

...............Buckshot

[sundog]

Does this mean that I have to get mine out, too? Maybe it's time. A pristine, in every respect, 1917 Winchester. Y'all want to have a little 10-round group competition, just for grins (and braggin' rights)? I'm thinkin' something like a 311284 and some 4198 for starters.... sundog

[David R]

Does this mean that I have to get mine out, too? Maybe it's time. A pristine, in every respect, 1917 Winchester. Y'all want to have a little 10-round group competition, just for grins (and braggin' rights)? I'm thinkin' something like a 311284 and some 4198 for starters.... sundog

I'm in, 100 yards, 10 shots. How long do I have?

So far its 2" 50 yards, so you guys get em out cause that should be easy to beat. I have a feeling from what I have learned here and working with the rifle lately, I will do much better in time. Mine is a winchester too, but I put shiney stuff on the stock, got rid of the barrel band and all the wood in front. I tried to smooze out the trigger, and it is, but still a loooong military travel.

[slughammer]

Next order from midway I am going to buy some of that stuff that takes a casting of the chamber and throat so I can see what is going on in there.

Don't know if you've had time to do the chamber cast, but a pure lead 38 cal slug driven into the chamber neck and into the throat is easy to do and a very accurate way to figure out what is going on. If you don't drive the first one in far enough, do another, it's quick and easy. Use a pure lead like a 148gr swaged wadcutter.

[Buckshot]

Does this mean that I have to get mine out, too? Maybe it's time. A pristine, in every respect, 1917 Winchester. Y'all want to have a little 10-round group competition, just for grins (and braggin' rights)? I'm thinkin' something like a 311284 and some 4198 for starters.... sundog

Ah rectum so! :-) Shall we post a photo with a ruler or will writting it on the target suffice?

..............Buckshot

[sundog]

Buckshot, I was thinking of something rather informal. Among our trusted constabulary a simple post should suffice. I'll start a thread over on the competitions board and we can post our group sizes. Those of us who have picture capability can also do that. Just something fun to take a break from other stuff. sundog

[David R]

I havce been working on a load for my 1917, and found one that shoots. NOT 2" at 100 or anything, but seems to work. I did manage to hit a clay bird @ 100 with it off hand on the third try. Last night we shot silhouettes and I used it in a match. Nice FUN gun to shoot. I knocked down 32 out of 40. I have done better than that with my 44 mag pistol, but still it was fun. I am the only one right now shooting CF Rifle cartridge. I let anyone that wanted to shoot it. I am hoping it catches on. I have tried to shoot groups with it and I think My eyes can't shoot any better than 4" @ 100. I am going to try a target with a bigger bull to see if that helps.

Lyman 311466, 12.5 Unique sized .310 should be .309 but I don't have one yet. 3.100 OAL. Gas check and first 4 grooves lubed. Should be about 1600 acording to Lyman.

Does anybody know what I can do with that Blasted Military trigger?

[Buckshot]

"..............Does anybody know what I can do with that Blasted Military trigger?"

Replace it with a Timney or Bold.

Or you can work on the issue one. Remove the trigger and sear assembly and determine is the underside of the action (tang) is worn from contact with the 2 small humps on the trigger. Lots are. If so stone the surface so it's smooth and doesn't have the 2 worn spots.

Remove the trigger pin and make sure it isn't bowed a bit. If so, take it to the hardware store and buy a number bit to 'just' fit. Cut off a poiece of the drill's shank for a new pin. While the trigger is out of the sear lightly stone the inside surfaces to make sure there is no raised metal for the trigger to rub against.

Look on both sides of the sear where it goes up through the window in the tang to make sure it hasn't been rubbing. If it has, use a jeweler's file to slightly open the offending side of the window to clear. If the face of the sear has scratches perpendicular to it's movement, lightly stone them smooth being carefull to not change the angle.

If the trigger had a long pull, and you feel comfortable doing it, you might stone the sear lower. If there was wear under the tang and you smoothed that, the trigger sear will ride ever so slightly higher for even more sear engagement.

What I do to check sear engagement length is to apply diemakers blue to both surfaces. Barring that smoke them or use a marking pen on the surfaces. With the trigger re-installed, push the bolt forward while holding it up. In other words have it bear in the underside of the bridge. This would be the minimum engagement distance. Be sure the bolt is biased upwards, close it and pull the trigger.

Continue holding the trigger back (sear is down) and retract the bolt and repeat 3-4 times. Pull the bolt and look at the coating wear on the sear. Check the face of the trigger sear. Quite often one or the other will show only a bright line across the edge and the other will show a more or less broad line where the other has slid across it. The one with only a bright transverse line is hooked, or concave. Not optimum.

Ideally both will show full contact across their faces. This shows they are square with each other and that is what you want. At this time you can then stone the sear down a bit. After stoning you should cock the rifle and thump the butt smartly on a board or carpeted floor. You do not want the sear to 'Jar off'.

I built a sporter from a barreled Springfield action, a purchased bolt and parts I had on hand. If you just close the bolt there is no 2 stage pull and the trigger is VERY light. If you cock the bolt and press down on the bolt shroud while it's cocked, you WILL have a 2 stage pull. This is an indication of not enough sear engagement surface. While the trigger won't 'Jar off' it's not right and I plan to install a Timney.

.............Buckshot

[David R]

Good Stuff Buckshot. Thanks. I did take it apart and mess with it a few years ago. Its light, and single stage, but the travel seems to be 1/4". I hold on target and start to sliiiide it back. I have repositioned it on target more than once before I can make the rifle fire. I am used to a couple of pounds with no creep. I will take it apart again and flollow your instructions. I am going to fire a few more groups this weekend and see how it shoots. Trying to win the E contest, but it aint lookin good. :wink: I picked up a 311410 I think 130 grain mold. No gas check, but I am going to try it with a light load. I really bought it for my contender in 32-20. Not as much bearing surface as I would like, but ya never know till ya try it.