Subsonic rifle load data wanted for 303 Brit

[303Guy]

Can anyone help me determine a load for cast boolits in the 303 Brit that will be just subsonic? The powders I have are H4227/AR2205, Lil'Gun, Varget/AR2208 and H4350/AR2209.

Boolit weights are 230gr and 208gr.

I would prefer a load that nearly fills the case if possible.

The 303 Brit has a case capacity similar to the Krag and 308 (when measured to base of the neck - where the boolits will be seated to).

Thanks

[Ramsgate]

I don't have a 303 and I'm unfamiliar with half your in stock powders but heck, this is the internet and I'm not using my real name so here goes. First I wouldn't attempt to fill the case. You might be very happy with relatively fast powders that are not position sensitive and are content to have a massive amount of airspace. If you started with H4227 you might think about 10 grains to start. It would not be my choice. If you cozied up to some shotgun shooter and purloined some Red Dot (too easy, they don't have the giant brains of rifle shooters), you might start at about 8 grains. I shoot subsonic loads in .45-70 and .375 H&H most days and I use Bullseye, N330, N340 and SR4759. SR4756 should work well but here success has eluded me.

I would strongly guess that the 303 British would do very well with those bullet weights at subsonic velocities. And now that I've primed the pump the smart guys can chime in. Good luck.

[wiljen]

Subsonic in the 308 is usually best done with unique and trailboss - try one of those.

[303Guy]

:mrgreen:Thanks. I can get 'Unique' in the form of a local manufacture - ADI and I think 'Trailboss' too (it might even me made by ADI). I'm just not sure the faster powders are ideal for heavier boolits. (We are talking very heavy for caliber).

Well, using what I have, I loaded up 10grs H4227/AR2205 behind a 230grainer and used a filler. Pressure was very mild so I tried 19grs behind a 262.5grainer and got the 'working pressure' I am looking for. (That means room for more pressure but high enough to register on the primer and burn clean). Next, I'll try 21grs behind a 230grainer. The 230grainer is the 262.5grainer with a massive hollow nose designed to open up at low velocity.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-434F.jpg
The middle one is the 230gr (the left one is 209gr). The R/H one is the 262.5gr FN.

230grHN/10gr http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-468F.jpg 262.5grFN/19gr

However, I have no idea what velocity I am getting.

My reason to want to fill (or nearly fill) the case is to make double charging or overloading impossible. 19gr AR2205 is less than half the case volume and is getting close to full pressure loading so an accidental increase of double charge could be diastrous! Mind you, being at the wrong end of this boolit would be pretty damn dangerous too!

[35remington]

A full case and subsonic velocities with smokeless powder ain't gonna happen, even with Trailboss. At subsonic velocities, even the slow pistol/fast rifle powders start to get very low pressure and therefore unreliable and very dirty burning.

Fast shotgun powders seconded here. Start with around six grains Unique and go up or down as the chronograph and your chosen bullet weight allow.

On edit: after seeing the bullet weights you're using, 4227 should work after all.....but a caseful of appropriate smokeless powder with reliable pressures will be difficult to do at such low speeds.

[longbow]

303Guy:

I'll check my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook for .303 Brit and .30-40 Krag. I know there are limited loads for both.

I have used up to 13 grs. Unique with pretty good results and as low as 10 grs. under a 314299 at 200 grs. and a homemade boolit of 215 grs. I think even the 10 grs. will be supersonic though. I have also used IMR4227 and IMR4198 with filler. Charges of around 20 grs. behind the 314299 do well but work up loads carefully because each gun is different and the filler adds another dimension too. I have not downloaded with IMR4227 and filler to get subsonic velocities though. Shouldn't be any danger in my view.

I am with you on the double charging thing and am leaning towards filler for that reason and others. So far I have had good success with filler though that is opening up a whole other can of worms.

I was reading JeffinNZ's .303 Pygmy posts thinking that a full size .303 with filler should produce pretty similar results ~ whisper like loads.

For low velocity loads and light charges Unique, Bullseye, Red Dot, 2400 and a few others should be suitable. For the most part they are not position sensitive and do not require filler but the small volumes do require careful charging and checking cases to avoid double charging.

I doubt I just told you anything you don't already know! Just an old man rambling.

Anyway, if I turn up any suitable low velocity loads I will post them for you.

Longbow

[303Guy]

... but a caseful of appropriate smokeless powder with reliable pressures will be difficult to do at such low speeds.Mmmm. I had a feeling about that! The 230grHN/10gr H4227/AR2205 had lots of partially burned powder and velocity must have been real low. 19grs under the 262.5grainer burned real clean and could not have been too slow.

Ummm .... I don't have a chrono. I'm running blind here!:oops:

[303Guy]

I doubt I just told you anything you don't already know!Actually, longbow, you have been most helpful! Thanks. Even at supersinc velocity, these fast powders will produce zero muzzle blast from a suppressor so the shot would still be like a sharp whip-crack. (Hey..., a friend has a suppressed 223 - it's like a 22LR HV suppressed. Very impressive!)

I would appreciate the Lyman data - thanks!

OK, so if I need faster pistol or shotgun powders to produce a 'whisper' then that's what I shall do.

Oh, the reason for going with such a heavy boolit is to make a sub-sonic boolit into a lethal close range feral pig/medium game gun (for rain and dense bush conditions). Soft boolits are showing promising results.

[sagacious]

... I'm just not sure the faster powders are ideal for heavier boolits. (We are talking very heavy for caliber).
Heavy-for-caliber bullets and a fast powder is almost unquestionably the most reliable and safe way to achieve the subsonic results you're after. I'm not loading the calibers you are, but in the 44mag, a very small amount of Bullseye behind a 400gr swaged lead slug gives me a very powerful and accurate subsonic rifle load. Works like a charm. The majority of recipes for the type of load you're attempting will involve fast powders. I load heavy subsonic loads in other calibers, and the fast-powder heavy-slug combo works reliably.

If you can get Unique, then you'de be competently advised to seek some out. Unique deserves it's name-- it is indeed unique. Safe recipes for Unique and lead slugs can be found for the 25ACP to the 460 Win mag.


My reason to want to fill (or nearly fill) the case is to make double charging or overloading impossible. 19gr AR2205 is less than half the case volume and is getting close to full pressure loading so an accidental increase of double charge could be diastrous!
...
There's no way around this. A partial-charge of slow powder can be just as disaterous as a double charge of fast powder. There in so sure solution, save for care in load assembly.

Also, you'll be using such small amounts of fast powder that a double charge may well do nothing more than give you only a little more velocity. My subsonic loads use truly tiny amounts of powder. In any case, these loads need to be loaded with care to function properly anyway, so one should take the time required to prevent mistakes. I weigh each powder charge on these subsonic rifle loads, as a small powder variation and a dirty bore can mean a stuck bullet.

Hope this helps, good luck! :drinks:

[sagacious]

Since you have no chrono, and just as a point of reference, Lyman lists 10grs Unique and the Lyman 210gr 311284 as giving 1210fps, and that 13.5grs Unique gives 1450fps in the 303 British.

If you do get some Unique, and you wish to experiment, you might try down-loading from there.

Cheers, and be safe. :drinks:

[longbow]

303Guy:

Here you go ~ all loads for .303 Brit using a Lyman 311284 @ 210 grs.:

- Red Dot; 10 grs.; 1245 FPS
- 700X; 9 grs.; 1165 FPS
- Green Dot; 9.5 grs.; 1190 FPS
- PB; 9.5 grs.; 1130 FPS
- Unique; 10 grs.; 1210 FPS
- SR7625; 10 grs.; 1170 FPS

Unfortunately, no pressures listed for .303 or .30-40 Krag.

As an indicator, Red Dot @ 10.5 grs. gives 1244 FPS and 27,000 CUP in a .30-06. >3o3 has a little less volume so pressure should be a little higher.

So, those loads are all supersonic but not by much. I bet a reduction of any by 1 to 2 grs. would make it subsonic.

Personally, I am leaning to IMR4227 and IMR4198 with filler but again, not subsonic, just nice light consistent loads and they are working well for me so far. I doubt either would work well in reduced load without filler though.

By the way, how does filler work with a suppressor? I would have figured bits of filler would get blasted into the suppressor requiring lots of cleaning.

Oh, and a warning if you are working your way down in charge... make sure the boolit leaves the barrel! Especially with a suppressor where you might not hear much.

A link you may enjoy:

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html

Okay, two links:

http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/SubsonicBullet.html

I hope that helps.

Longbow

[Ramsgate]

I weigh each powder charge on these subsonic rifle loads, as a small powder variation and a dirty bore can mean a stuck bullet.


I throw all charges. I use a Redding powder measure for the .375 H&H but use a Dillon 550B and load the .45-70 there in a progressive fashion as I shoot it a great deal. I always mop the bore after use and I always start with a wet bore. I do not do this with jacketed bullets but I do not anticipate ever loading anything but cast in these two excellent calibres. I spent some years fooling with puffs of this and that and frankly it was worse than a waste of time. No fillers no wads and usually no gas checks and both rifles never disappoint.

[303Guy]

Thanks, yes, very helful indeed! Interesting read, those two links. I was aware of the Valmet suppressor (ironically, I developed something similar 25 years ago for my mini-14! My current ones are a tad different in function but the same in size).

[303Guy]

Well, I just fired a 230grHN over 21.5grs H4227/AR2205 into a wet paper ball over dry sand with folded newsprint inbetween. The wet ball was fist sized. It captured fragments of the blown hollow nose and the hole in the folded print was substancial. The boolit penetrated the dry sand quite well and no doubt expanded further. Weight retension is 182gr. Once the sand is dry I shall sift it to see how much weight loss occured in the sand itself. (This is going to be one devastating small critter boolit!)

From the data gleamed I would say that 21.5grs H4227 would equal about 11gr Unique, velocity wise so probably subsonic or at least close to trans-sonic. Pressure would be about a medium full-house load so not much room for error.

Eddited to add;

Just checked the bore - clean as a whistle! (Apart from some dirt!):mrgreen:
I pushed a cotton wool ball through and what came out was seriously minimal
There is no sign of leading or anything like that.

So, My conclusion is that the load I used produced enough pressure to obturate the bore (like the boolit wasn't over-groove already) but muzzle pressure low enough not to upset the soft alloy boolit on exit.

Ready for field testing![smilie=w:

Thanks all for the very helpful suggestions and info.:drinks: (Unique testing will be in a while to come - can't have transonic loads).

[dualsport]

It might be possible to reduce the case capacity some by using some experimental techniques I've read about. In one the guy inserted a piece of carefully cut paper into the case before loading powder. It more or less formed a tube against the walls of the inside of the case. Nitrating was tried to promote combustion of the paper. By reducing case volume you kill a couple birds with one stone.

[303Guy]

Now that you mention it, I have a whole bunch of cases with quite thick walls and hence reduced volume. The difference in volume is a little more than the volume of the neck. Quite a bit!


Lyman lists 10grs Unique and the Lyman 210gr 311284 as giving 1210fps, and that 13.5grs Unique gives 1450fps in the 303 British.I'm wondering if I could extrapolate those numbers to get the 'expected' velocity with heavier boolits.

With H4227/AR2205 it would be a bit risky as at some point the powder starts to burn properly resulting in a rather dramatic rise in pressure and velocity but Unique should be quite predictable. I did play around with an equivalent many years ago in the 303 and for low pressure loads it really does work well. At that time I only had 180gr boolits (that did not fit the bore properly).

Mmmmm...... just thinking ..... H4227 at 21.5grs half fills the case. This makes it easy to see and check with a rod guage that the case is not overloaded.

[joeb33050]

Based on Mic Micpherson's table of case capacities the 303 British has about 96% the usable capacity of the 308 Win.
H4227 is going away because it is so close to IMR4227.
I have shot 200 grain bullets in 308 Win with IMR4227 down to 6 grains at ~544 fps, with round holes and reasonable accuracy.
Quickload estimates 308 Win 200 grain bullet IMR4227 velocities at:
16 gr. 1167 fps
15 gr. 1104 fps
14 gr. 1041 fps

It looks like charges in this region would give subsonic velocities in 303 British.
Take all the necessary precautions to keep from double charging, keep that flashlight handy.
joe b.

[303Guy]

Thanks for that.

So, it would seem that a 230grainer over 21.5grs AR2205 would be supersonic and that a 262.5grainer over 19grs would be subsonic - thereabouts.

I do know that a 225 grainer over 34.7grs Varget/AR2208 produces around 1800fps. Going through old load data I see I have loaded 30gr Varget/ under a 145gr boolit with cotton filler and 34.7gr H4350/AR2209 under a 200gr boolit. No hope of subsonic there I should think as has been said already! So, either I stay with AR2205 or go to Unique. Mmmm....

[canuck4570]

I shoot sub sonic to match my 22lr
I shoot my 30-06 at 1040 fps
I do it with 9.5 grain of Trail boss
the bullet is a Saeco r4 that weight 196 gr.....
with this load you should be close
I would go with 9gr to start and if you have a chrono just adjust yourself......
with this load the case shows no black mark and I shot all sumer long never cleaned the barrel and accuracy was great sub moa at 100 yards and 2 1/2 at 200 yards
shot around 3000 rounds.....

[redgum]

FYI:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=71243

[Pirate69]

This may be helpful or maybe not. In my No. 4 Mark 1, I shoot a 160 grain bullet in front of 8 grains of RedDot. It is subsonic and very accurate. This morning I shot a couple of groups at 50 yards that measured 1" x 1.7" and 0.6" X 1.9". The wind was 10-15 mph at 90 degrees and it spread the groups. Air temp was 27 degrees F. It was cold.

[303Guy]

You know, I have a two-groove No4 Mk1. I was trying to get it to shoot full house PPCBoo's but the two driving lands are just not enough (specially since they are rust roughened) and just cut through the paper leaving a gas cutting channel. But sub-sonic ..... I should try that in that gun! (I have relegated it to a more sinful role of shooting J-words - and it is soooo accurate with those it should be illigal! If I knew how to compensate for trajectory, I would have a very accurate varmint rifle/long range game rifle. And it's suppressed - no recoil with hot 180gr loads, well hot for a Lee Enfield:roll:).

Thanks for the idea. Mmmm..... now look what you've started!:mrgreen:

I should mention just for fun.:) I loaded up some 225gr smooth sided casts over a Varget/AR2208 charge that would have produced around 1800 fps for my good barreled NoI MkI * and that was real sweet to shoot and accurate too at 1 MOA @ 50yds.

[w30wcf]

303Guy,

I have used the Lyman 314299 .303 British cast bullet for subsonic loadings in my 788 Rem .30-30 with very good results....some 5 shot groups at 200 yards going around 2 1/2". :smile: Velocities were in the 1,080-1,120 f.p.s area.

Best of luck to you in this neat endeavor.........

w30wcf

[303Guy]

I tried a patched sub-sonic boolit in my two-groove No4. It aint gonna work! The paper cuts through on the rifling edge and the lead wears a gap resulting in flame cutting on the other side of the groove.:( No matter - that's my sinfully accurate J-word rifle.:twisted:

[BerdanIII]

It might be possible to reduce the case capacity some by using some experimental techniques I've read about. In one the guy inserted a piece of carefully cut paper into the case before loading powder. It more or less formed a tube against the walls of the inside of the case. Nitrating was tried to promote combustion of the paper. By reducing case volume you kill a couple birds with one stone.

You may want to go slowly on this idea. I have tried it with the .303 and dirty, nasty J-word bullets (Mk VII ball) and about half of the paper tubes wound up in the barrel. I did not nitrate the paper and the stock may have been too heavy, but I think the real problem was the shallow shoulder angle of my neck-sized cases. The tubes were able to slide past the shoulder and follow the bullet down the bore. I was using Berdan-primed cases and this may have been a contributing factor, since the flash holes were close to the inside of the tubes. Rolling papers might work better, but I wouldn't want to crud up the interior of a suppressor.

I was able to work up a subsonic load with IMR3031 and 180-gr JSP's and the MkVII bullet in standard Boxer cases, but "accuracy" at 100 yards was laughable. The powder burned fairly clean, so I'm not sure if it was a case of using the wrong powder or the bullets becoming unstable at 1000 fps (even less at 100 yds).

Keep us posted.

[303Guy]

I was able to work up a subsonic load with IMR3031 and 180-gr JSP'sWell, now, IMR3031 is faily close to AR2208/Varget. Mmmm..... I'm planning on 230 to 262gr boolits (Same mold but hollow nose vs flat nose).

I'm testing 20 to 21grs AR2205/H4227/IMR4227 behind the 230grainer. That's a 50% load density for full pressure. I think it's safe to go as low as 60% load density with Varget. (I've done some tests which I shall have to look up). Mmmm.... I'll have to be very careful here - thin ice!:-|

[zuke]

I was in a gun shop once talking and such when I saw a spent brass on the counter.When I picked it up it was heavy and when I looked inside of it realized it was made from solid bar.
It had a primer cup and drilled thru but the area where the powder charge was about 5/16th of an inch in dia and where the bullet sat was opened up so it would sit normally but the bullet sat(the counter bore) on a little shelf.
I forget what it was for ,maybe 577 or 577/450?

[303Guy]

577/450 Has only been available in that form for as long as I can remember. It made the cartridge loadable with smokeless powders. I did something similar with a 303 Brit case, filling one up with epoxy resin and boring out the centre to leave a seating shoulder. That works fine for lighter boolits but the Lee Enfield wont' shoot for you know what with short boolits like that.

Well, I have just tried my thick walled PMP cases with AR2208/Varget and AR2209/H4350 under my 245gr Pig Gun boolits I had made a mold for and discovered on checking my records that I had tried this before! Well anyway, I got down to 30gr AR2209 and still had clean burning at what appears to be a little lower than or equal to a normal starting load for that powder. That's 70% powder capacity. Absolute minimum I should think. But I think velocity with that boolit is supersonic. Anyway, I'll range test it and see what happens.

No sign of patch failure in the bore! I did mention that these boolits are being paper patched didn't I?[smilie=1:

:bigsmyl2:

[quasi]

Cramer 170 gr .317 dia. , 5 grs Red Dot, Win. LRM Primer = 1020 fps in my rifles. This load is not position sensitive, no filler required.

[303Guy]

This load is not position sensitive, no filler required. Interesting! Do you have any idea of the max load with that powder and boolit? What I'm getting at is whether a double (or even triple) charge would constitute an overload. I would hazzard a guess not at double and triple would be a serious lack of concentration but at least a triple charge would look wrong! I suspect that with my heavier boolit, I would not have the luxury of double charge safety. Target loads are a different matter. For that I would be quite happy with a lighter boolit and I can go as low as 160gr with my gun, I think, as long as it has a large hollow nose (to reduce weight).

[quasi]

I have loaded 13 gr's of Red Dot in the .303, .308, .300 win. I think this is C.E. Harris's "the load". It is certainly safe in all these cartridges.

[Ed Barrett]

you might look at the ultra slow powders. I used some IMR 5010 in full case load amounts in 45-70 and it was very quiet but also very dirty. If you duplex load it with 2 or 3 grains of 3031 or a similar powder next to the primer it would blow the unburnt slow powder out. IMR 5010 is pulled down 50 BMG powder, it was $5 for 8 pounds a few years back, it's a very large stick powder. Hope this is some help to you.

[Artful]

this might be helpful to ya.
http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=280

[MaxJon]

Can anyone help me determine a load for cast boolits in the 303 Brit that will be just subsonic? The powders I have are H4227/AR2205, Lil'Gun, Varget/AR2208 and H4350/AR2209.

Boolit weights are 230gr and 208gr.

I would prefer a load that nearly fills the case if possible.

The 303 Brit has a case capacity similar to the Krag and 308 (when measured to base of the neck - where the boolits will be seated to).

Thanks

Hi 303guy,
the link below is not for the 303B, but i think you should get something useful from it, as i did.
I use 7grains of AP50N (adi) behind the RCBS 82014 180gn FP in my Mauser 308.
AP50N is one powder slower than Trailboss. This load is well and truly subsonic, i could go up to about 10grains and still be subsonic, but i only need it to shoot 50M Service match and it groups very, so why fix it when its not broken? If you are chasing case density, Trailboss is definitely what you need, its like little donuts, its huge!!
Hope the link finds you well anyway mate.
http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/DevelopSubsonic.html

[rbrtdun]

I shoot sub sonic to match my 22lr
I shoot my 30-06 at 1040 fps
I do it with 9.5 grain of Trail boss
the bullet is a Saeco r4 that weight 196 gr.....
with this load you should be close
I would go with 9gr to start and if you have a chrono just adjust yourself......
with this load the case shows no black mark and I shot all sumer long never cleaned the barrel and accuracy was great sub moa at 100 yards and 2 1/2 at 200 yards
shot around 3000 rounds.....

I have some 165 gr. Missouri Bullet PB cast that I am trying to get a good accurate load in my 30/06. I have tried 17 gr 2400, 14 gr 2400, 10 gr Blue Dot, and 25 gr H4895 but nothing accurate so far. Missouri Bullet says these are BNH 18 so I would think 1400 to 1600 fps would be OK, but may be too fast. Do you think using Trail Boss with the 165 gr would be a good move? Not sure what else to try or just give up and go back to jacketed. I am just looking for decent plinking loads, but 5 inch groups at 25 yards are not even plinking loads.
Thanks

[azcruiser]

Go with TRAILBOSS simple as that fill the case weight it take off 10%to 15% start there ,I use
10.5 in my 303 with cast lead .Now I'm using trailboss in everything 6mm rem 222rem 22-250rem
223rem 6.5x55 swede 7.62 rus 8mm mauser one powder does it all

[MaxJon]

Go with TRAILBOSS simple as that fill the case weight it take off 10%to 15% start there ,I use
10.5 in my 303 with cast lead .Now I'm using trailboss in everything 6mm rem 222rem 22-250rem
223rem 6.5x55 swede 7.62 rus 8mm mauser one powder does it all

Hi azcruiser, is your 10.5 grains of TRAILBOSS in the 303 still subsonic? 303guy wants it to be just subsonic from my understanding. Have you chronographed it? Interested to know velocity thats all. I really love my "QUIET ACHIEVER" (308 MAUSER). <800 FPS Gunna get some Trailboss when i run low on my AP50N very versatile!!
BB033

[Alex Hamilton]

Can anyone help me determine a load for cast boolits in the 303 Brit that will be just subsonic? The powders I have are H4227/AR2205, Lil'Gun, Varget/AR2208 and H4350/AR2209.

Boolit weights are 230gr and 208gr.

I would prefer a load that nearly fills the case if possible.

The 303 Brit has a case capacity similar to the Krag and 308 (when measured to base of the neck - where the boolits will be seated to).

Thanks
None of the powders you have will give you a subsonic load and burn consistently and there are no powders that will fill the 303 case and give you subsonic velocity. Using fillers in bottle-necked cases is not a good idea, especially not Cream of Wheat (Semolina), unless you want to blow yourself up!
In the attachment are my 2 subsonic loads and they are good to 100yds. Yes, you can double and trebble charge the case, but you just have to be careful. It is still safer to use small charges of fast powders than small charges of some of the powders you have, because they may detonate. You might get better results with lighter bullets - say, 160grs.

Alex

[303Guy]

Thanks, Alex Hamilton. Ummm.... not the answer I was wanting but the truth just the same!:mrgreen:

Since starting this thread I have aquired some AS30N (similar to Bullseye, I think). It's bulkier than our AP class powders but faster. I'd say it's not good for very heavy boolits - a bit peaky in pressure if overloaded.

In the meantime I have experimented a bit with case fillers. In principle they're great at taking up excess volume but also tend toward 'plugging'. I'm too scared to try them with the AS30N but might consider them with 4227 - but still scared! What they do do though is allow the use of slower rifle powders under heavier boolits but way over sonic levels which is still OK as the muzzle blast is not severe (especially with a a semi-suppressor).

As an aside - I've had a reduced load of iether Lil'Gun or AR2205/4227 under a fire-lapping bullet that went awry and jammed right in the throat and sealed up real good! After a fair wait, I unlocked the bolt and there was still residual pressure in the chamber! However, ignition would be erratic, as you point out.

I developed a load with this AS30N that was getting close to max for the rifle and case - but there's just no way I'm gonna use a load like that. An accidental double charge will most certainly blow the action! (Or something).:???:

[MaxJon]

Thanks, Alex Hamilton. Ummm.... not the answer I was wanting but the truth just the same!:mrgreen:

Since starting this thread I have aquired some AS30N (similar to Bullseye, I think). It's bulkier than our AP class powders but faster. I'd say it's not good for very heavy boolits - a bit peaky in pressure if overloaded.

In the meantime I have experimented a bit with case fillers. In principle they're great at taking up excess volume but also tend toward 'plugging'. I'm too scared to try them with the AS30N but might consider them with 4227 - but still scared! What they do do though is allow the use of slower rifle powders under heavier boolits but way over sonic levels which is still OK as the muzzle blast is not severe (especially with a a semi-suppressor).

As an aside - I've had a reduced load of iether Lil'Gun or AR2205/4227 under a fire-lapping bullet that went awry and jammed right in the throat and sealed up real good! After a fair wait, I unlocked the bolt and there was still residual pressure in the chamber! However, ignition would be erratic, as you point out.

I developed a load with this AS30N that was getting close to max for the rifle and case - but there's just no way I'm gonna use a load like that. An accidental double charge will most certainly blow the action! (Or something).:???:

Hi 303guy.
AS30N (shotgun powder)is the fastest powder by burn rate Australian Defence Industries make, and AR2205 is the slowest you would want to go for your needs.
At our range we are restricted to a 600 joule limit, so this makes all our military rifle shooting subsonic. None of us are loading over 10grains of fast burning pistol powders. Most of us are using Trailboss, AS30N, AP50N. One guy uses AR2205 in his 6.5x55 with varied success. If you are worried about double charging or load density, get some trailboss 8 grains more than half fills .308 cases, so double charging should be OBVIOUSLY avoided if you know what i mean. Check this link out, hope this helps!
BB033
http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders-guide/

[Alex Hamilton]

Thanks, Alex Hamilton. Ummm.... not the answer I was wanting but the truth just the same!:mrgreen:

Since starting this thread I have aquired some AS30N (similar to Bullseye, I think). It's bulkier than our AP class powders but faster. I'd say it's not good for very heavy boolits - a bit peaky in pressure if overloaded.


I don't have a load with heavy bullet in 303. but here is one in 7.62x54R Mosin-Nagant. Lyman 313299 weighs 200grs and the Mosin twist is 1 in 9.5 against 1 in 10 in any Enfield. Too close to make a difference.

My only experience with fillers in 303 was with 16grs of Vihtavuori N140 (40% of normal load with 174gr jacketed bullet), topped with 22grs of Semolina, so that there was no air space below the bullet. I fired that the following day, so there was no chance of semolina picking up moisture and clumping. Accuracy was superb. All in in about 1MOA and so quiet that the boys thought I was firing primed cases! But the rifle got very hot after only 10 rounds and the cases were difficult to extract. The problem is that semolina compacts into a solid plug under pressure and firing it in bottle neck cases is not good for your health!!

Regards,

Alex

[303Guy]

Thanks. Exactly what I fear. Of course the mosin is so damn strong (I believe) it won't harm it but a Lee Enfield ...... mmmmm? Wheat bran does not seem to raise the pressure quite as much - very little actually.

[MaxJon]

Thanks. Exactly what I fear. Of course the mosin is so damn strong (I believe) it won't harm it but a Lee Enfield ...... mmmmm? Wheat bran does not seem to raise the pressure quite as much - very little actually.

Yeah i would be very careful with the lee enfield action unless its a No.4 action. Some of us use them without problems. (N0.4s)
BB033

[Jon K]

I haven't checked the speed, but 10 gr of Trailboss works good.....no pressure, good accuracy, mild in the 303(#4 MK1 1943) w/314299 or NOE 316299.

Jon

[303Guy]

All in in about 1MOA and so quiet that the boys thought I was firing primed cases! But the rifle got very hot after only 10 rounds and the cases were difficult to extract.I've been thinking on the being so quiet and the hot barrel..... I tried a 30gr charge of 4350 under a 204.5gr boolit. First with grits as a filler then with wheat bran (not on the same day). The grits produced a higher pressure as far as primer reading could tell. The recovered boolits looked quite different. I cannot guarentee that the alloy was the same nor that I haven't got my facts mixed up so I'll have to repeat the test but it looks like the grits produced higher pressure but LOWER velocity! Could the COW, like the grits, be resisting the gas pressure, producing friction and consuming all the powder before muzzle exit? Tomorrow I shall load two cases, one with grits, one with wheat bran and boolits of the same weight and alloy.

...be very careful with the lee enfield action unless its a No.4 action.I use my No4 when I'm unsure of possible pressure but my loads are for a MkI - pre-war so not built under production pressure.

..but 10 gr of Trailboss works good...I haven't checked to see if I can get Trailboss in my parts. I believe it to be quite expensive.

I'm wanting to try some 4227 with wheat bran filler - I have discovered I have two cans of it!

SOME TIME LATER ...

Well, I got brave enough to try a load of 10gr 4227 with the case filled with wheat bran under a paper patched 140gr boolit. No worries - I' say I could double the powder charge and pressure would still be mild. The powder did seem to burn OK but I didn't have my catch cloth so can't really say for sure. It looks like the boolit was yawing badly on impact - it was a serious reject boolit.

[MaxJon]

I've been thinking on the being so quiet and the hot barrel..... I tried a 30gr charge of 4350 under a 204.5gr boolit. First with grits as a filler then with wheat bran (not on the same day). The grits produced a higher pressure as far as primer reading could tell. The recovered boolits looked quite different. I cannot guarentee that the alloy was the same nor that I haven't got my facts mixed up so I'll have to repeat the test but it looks like the grits produced higher pressure but LOWER velocity! Could the COW, like the grits, be resisting the gas pressure, producing friction and consuming all the powder before muzzle exit? Tomorrow I shall load two cases, one with grits, one with wheat bran and boolits of the same weight and alloy.
I use my No4 when I'm unsure of possible pressure but my loads are for a MkI - pre-war so not built under production pressure.
I haven't checked to see if I can get Trailboss in my parts. I believe it to be quite expensive.

I'm wanting to try some 4227 with wheat bran filler - I have discovered I have two cans of it!

SOME TIME LATER ...

Well, I got brave enough to try a load of 10gr 4227 with the case filled with wheat bran under a paper patched 140gr boolit. No worries - I' say I could double the powder charge and pressure would still be mild. The powder did seem to burn OK but I didn't have my catch cloth so can't really say for sure. It looks like the boolit was yawing badly on impact - it was a serious reject boolit.

Hi 303guy.
Mate,do yourself a favour and save the wheat for your sheep, or send it to me for mine! ha ha. I shoot with about 20 others who shoot subsonic loaded military rifles (mainly 303 Enfields) on a regular basis, and none of us use fillers. If you are so worried about load density save ya bikkies for some trailboss and/or drill out the flash holes of ya brass to 3.5mm dia. with about 7 or 8 grains of your AS30N and you wont have a problem. Assuming you give your undivided attention to your reloading "double charging" should never happen. I use a modified cut off case as a "dipper" that gives me a charge just shy of my desired charge, and trickle the last bit in to the scale pan then immediately sit a projectile in the charged case ready for seating. Time consuming but if accuracy is what you are chasing its the way to go IMO. What ever you do DONT use the drilled out cases for high velocity loads if you value your rifle and your quality of life as you know it! Drilling them gives better and more uniform ignition, when the powder lays below the flash hole when the round is chambered, which will more than likely be the case. Check the link out i posted in a previous reply, (explained better).:drinks::drinks::drinks::drinks:
Regards,
BB03

[303Guy]

Thanks for the sage advice, bullbarrel033. My problem is I cannot guarrentee I'll never make a mistake! I've got too many different cases and rifles - all 303 Brit - to be able to reliably keep them separate. I have to simply build in large margins for error and multiple safety procedures - and it's paid off more than once. I'd be happy to use a AS30N load that is less than half of max 'though. It's the flash holes that worry me. Will it work OK with a small tuft of Dacron? Or just as is?

There is another reason for looking at the wheat bran route and that is rifling shear on my rust pitted two-groove rifle's bore. Without any WB the rifling cuts through the paper and shears into the groove impression and with WB it does not.

I must say 'though, I like the cleaning effect of the wheat bran!:p

[MaxJon]

Thanks for the sage advice, bullbarrel033. My problem is I cannot guarrentee I'll never make a mistake! I've got too many different cases and rifles - all 303 Brit - to be able to reliably keep them separate. I have to simply build in large margins for error and multiple safety procedures - and it's paid off more than once. I'd be happy to use a AS30N load that is less than half of max 'though. It's the flash holes that worry me. Will it work OK with a small tuft of Dacron? Or just as is?

There is another reason for looking at the wheat bran route and that is rifling shear on my rust pitted two-groove rifle's bore. Without any WB the rifling cuts through the paper and shears into the groove impression and with WB it does not.

I must say 'though, I like the cleaning effect of the wheat bran!:p

Hi 303guy, mate the drilled out flash holes work fine with no fillers, check the link i posted for you on post no.34 of this thread, should set your mind at ease! Very informative on subsonic CB loads.
good luck!!! [smilie=b:[smilie=b:[smilie=b:

[303Guy]

Thanks, bullbarrel033. I did go to the link you posted and I did see the article but for some reason it went to a Finnish article on the same topic which I read through then lost the original. Anyway, I saw the enlarged primer but did not take note before the article change (I must have clicked the mouse onto something). Anyway, there are three warnings in the article;

First, highlighted in red.

"The loading of subsonic ammunition should not be undertaken lightly. Done incorrectly or by the incautious or inexperienced, it presents a significant risk of grievous bodily harm to the shooter."

The second,


Don't go below 30% load density!

And the third,

DO NOT use subsonic modified cases for full power ammunition!

And Rule # 7 in red,

7. If load density is less than 40%, use tamping or fillers to keep the powder at the bottom of the case.

I must say I have used lower than 30% load density before with AS30N and AR2205 (and got away with it).

The article also says to lube the bullets. I do that with j-words anyway - prevents copper fouling and it's not a bad idea to keep a layer of lube in a bore in our cool and wet climate. The lube also coats the inside of the suppressore to prevent corrosion.

Anyway, back to sub-sonics. I might just try that suggestion and use my AS30N.

[MaxJon]

Thanks, bullbarrel033. I did go to the link you posted and I did see the article but for some reason it went to a Finnish article on the same topic which I read through then lost the original. Anyway, I saw the enlarged primer but did not take note before the article change (I must have clicked the mouse onto something). Anyway, there are three warnings in the article;

First, highlighted in red.


The second,


And the third,


And Rule # 7 in red,


I must say I have used lower than 30% load density before with AS30N and AR2205 (and got away with it).

The article also says to lube the bullets. I do that with j-words anyway - prevents copper fouling and it's not a bad idea to keep a layer of lube in a bore in our cool and wet climate. The lube also coats the inside of the suppressore to prevent corrosion.

Anyway, back to sub-sonics. I might just try that suggestion and use my AS30N.

Yes i know mate, i read the article form top to bottom, but i and others have loaded hundreds, maybe thousands of rounds varying 7 to 10 grains of FAST BURNING PISTOL POWDERS that would lucky to be 30% density with no problems.
I think if you stick with fast burning pistol/shotgun powders and keep drilled cases seperate from high velocity ones by some sort of identification marks you will be giggling!
Cheers BB03.:grin::grin::grin:

[303Guy]

Thanks for all your help bullbarrel033. I've just cast up a few 141gr boolits for the No4 and am about to try out the AS30N. I will be using paper patched boolits but the same rule applies. The benifit of PP is that if the boolit does not make it out the bore it is real easy to push it out!:mrgreen: (I'm not allowed to make a noise in my shed so I'll have to start low and work up.[smilie=1:) I'll let you know how it goes.:drinks:

[303Guy]

Well, my small powder measure was set for 5grs AS30N so that's what I used under a 414gr boolit. Cat sneeze!:mrgreen: It was a patched boolit and I used only a tuft of cotton wool to position the powder - I'm firing straight down.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/LedTinCopperAlloy.jpg Weight retention was 100% fired into sand.

Pressure was so low I thought I would just see what WB filler does. It raises pressure just a little. I then used the same load and WB under a 157gr boolit (no patch) and the end result was the same - cat sneeze and the same expansion of the boolit. Pressure was again just a little higher but still way low. And no leading! So now I have a cat sneeze load to try out on the range.

Oh, by cat sneeze, I mean that's the sound the gun made in the 'test tube'. Boolit performance says supersonic. (The gun is suppressed).

I know some folks will say " what's the WB filler for?" but try it and you'll see.

[MaxJon]

Well, my small powder measure was set for 5grs AS30N so that's what I used under a 414gr boolit. Cat sneeze!:mrgreen: It was a patched boolit and I used only a tuft of cotton wool to position the powder - I'm firing straight down.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/LedTinCopperAlloy.jpg Weight retention was 100% fired into sand.

Pressure was so low I thought I would just see what WB filler does. It raises pressure just a little. I then used the same load and WB under a 157gr boolit (no patch) and the end result was the same - cat sneeze and the same expansion of the boolit. Pressure was again just a little higher but still way low. And no leading! So now I have a cat sneeze load to try out on the range.

Oh, by cat sneeze, I mean that's the sound the gun made in the 'test tube'. Boolit performance says supersonic. (The gun is suppressed).

I know some folks will say " what's the WB filler for?" but try it and you'll see.

Hi 303guy, turn that cat sneeze into a cat fart and try 7 or 8 grains, should be fine! What distance do you intend to shoot this ammo at? 8 grains should be good for about 150 yards or so.

[303Guy]

What distance do you intend to shoot this ammo at? 8 grains should be good for about 150 yards or so. As far as possible. Thanks, bullbarrel033, I'll give it a go. I like the sound of 150yds! That would effectively take the range of the boolit out of the equation, leaving it up to me to shoot straight.:roll: (I hope this boolit and load will prove accurate).

bullbarrel033, might I ask, do you guys weigh and sort your castings? I've started doing that now that I have an electronic scale (it's not accurate enough for weighing powder charges).

[MaxJon]

As far as possible. Thanks, bullbarrel033, I'll give it a go. I like the sound of 150yds! That would effectively take the range of the boolit out of the equation, leaving it up to me to shoot straight.:roll: (I hope this boolit and load will prove accurate).

bullbarrel033, might I ask, do you guys weigh and sort your castings? I've started doing that now that I have an electronic scale (it's not accurate enough for weighing powder charges).

Hi 303guy, I don't weigh my pills, but some others do, and some others buy the Blackhawks CB's. It depends just how serious you are about accuracy, I personally are going to start batching my pills by weight, but have not had the time lately. As far as i have learnt so far about casting consistent pills its all about having the right temp of alloy, keeping your mould hot, and keeping a bit of a rythum for good mould fill out. If you stop casting to do something else you loose rythum which can cause a varience in batches of pills. From my experiences anyway. I also think cast iron moulds maintain heat better than alloy ones, the alloy ones tend to cool a lot faster, a bit like a heatsink effect if you know what i mean?
Cheers BB03

[303Guy]

Well, I loaded up some cat sneeze loads and took out for a trial. They don't work worth a damn! Just not not enough pressure por a patched boolit. I will pull all the remaining boolits and try plain lubed.

[MaxJon]

Well, I loaded up some cat sneeze loads and took out for a trial. They don't work worth a damn! Just not not enough pressure por a patched boolit. I will pull all the remaining boolits and try plain lubed.

Yeah 303guy,
I know nothing about paper patched pills, or the process/benefits etc..... Not sure i want to. Did you try the drilled flash hole case?? Sure improved accuracy in my Mauser!! [smilie=w:[smilie=w:
Hang in there!!
BB03

[303Guy]

No, I didn't try the flashole trick yet. I should have known better than to load up so many of an untested load. I'll make up a mold for plain cast next and substitute them for the patched ones. I just couldn't find my bullet puller today!:???: It's gotta be somewhere.

[stocker]

303guy: The only subsonic loads I've played with involved lead round ball in 348 Win and 35 Whelen. The powder used was 5744 which didn't appear to be position sensitive as far as I could determine. I got excellent 25 yard accuracy using 6 grains (35Wh.) and 8 grains (348 Win). Double or even triple charging would not be a problem with 5744 using the lighter round balls but accuracy falls apart fast when the speed goes up very much.

5744 is a safe powder to reduce a lot so you may find what you want using it with a bit of experimenting. With your heavier boolits you would probably need more powder than I used but just how much is the question. I think I would start about 10 or 12 grains and go up from there until you're happy.

[303Guy]

Thanks stocker. Not knowing the powder I did some research on it. It sounds like just the ticket! (Not sure if I can get it in my parts - I'll check).

[knappy]

Can anyone help me determine a load for cast boolits in the 303 Brit that will be just subsonic? The powders I have are H4227/AR2205, Lil'Gun, Varget/AR2208 and H4350/AR2209.

Boolit weights are 230gr and 208gr.

I would prefer a load that nearly fills the case if possible.

The 303 Brit has a case capacity similar to the Krag and 308 (when measured to base of the neck - where the boolits will be seated to).

Thanks

303guy
Try 200 Grs proj powder RE 7 26GRS. works well in my 303 in Aust.

[303Guy]

Much has happened in the interim but revisiting this old thread came timeously as I just so happen to have a more recently acquired rifle that doesn't like to align boolits/bullets with the bore. I experimented a bit with what I had lying around and it just so happens that this rifle does align the 262 grain boolit I mentioned at the beginning of this thread. This rifle had quite bit of fluffy rust toward the muzzle which may or may not mean the muzzle end has opened up a bit and it may or may not make a difference but with such a heavy cast boolit, barrel length may be moot so so I might end up chopping off an inch or two or maybe three and fitting an over-barrel suppressor (you gotta envy us Kiwi's).

I no longer care if it's subsonic or not, just as long as the muzzle blast is gone! I'll be trying a few loads suggested way back then (plus I have developed a safer loading practice to avoid double charges). So, since I have Trail Boss, the ADI equivalent of red dot/clays, H4227 and H4895, I will be trying those. One or all must surely work. I'm moving my workshop and man-cave so it will take a while. I do have motivation for subsonic though, I'll be able to fire them in my backyard/bush - clandestinely of course! ;) (But legally - as long as I don't disturb or endanger my neighbors).

[Bigslug]

WHOA! 9 year-old Zombie Thread! Oh well, had a useful reply cooked up - might as well post it.

Not much to add except for some comments on process.

The common safety practice of finding a working charge that fills the case more than half full to prevent overcharging is a good one, but as mentioned, it ain't gonna fly here. This technique adheres to the Keep It Simple, Stupid! principle in that it takes into account that our focus might get distracted and we'll occasionally make mistakes. Ordinarily, enough to implement, because nobody designs a cartridge with the intention of leaving half the case empty; and all of the powder manufacturers tend to formulate to fill the commonly available spaces. In your case, Simple went out the window with the goal of "sub-sonicking" a military cartridge with an intended 40-ish grain capacity and 2000fps+ nominal operating speed. The classic safety practice is no longer valid, so you'll have to come up with something else.

I would suggest having your primed empty cases thrown loose into a box on the left (NOT in a nicely organized, upright-standing loading block!), your press on the right, and your charging apparatus and bullets in the middle. Pick up a case, charge it, and go directly to bullet seating without setting the case down, and have an inviolable rule that charged cases only move to the right. I would not allow a loading block anywhere near this process because they hold cases in an orientation for filling and potentially re-charging. Having them jumbled and tumbled until the moment of filling prevents this - any case standing on its head is automatically regarded as "hot".

Intriguing concept for the .303. . .I've got my 316299 @ 2000fps load worked up to reproduce the MKI-MKVI cartridges, but the idea of running Mad Minutes with gallery loads makes me grin.:mrgreen:

[303Guy]

My technique is as you say a jumble tray of cases that first get primed then go head up in the loading block. From there they get charged and go back in the block mouth up. They do not get picked again until a light has been shome down the mouth and the powder charge inspected. Only then do they get bulleted. This applies even when I am only loading one cartridge. I used to do the powder then bullet method until I nearly blew myself up with and uncharged case. It usually takes two or more mistakes in a row to blow something up and I did just that. The second mistake was to assume that when the cartridge didn't fire, I had neglected to reload after the last shot. The third mistake was to think the case was a bit fat or something when the next one wouldn't chamber. My final safety measure saved me - that being a full powder charge that prevent the second bullet from pushing back into the case far enough to chamber behind the first bullet sitting in the throat.

[Chev. William]

WAY Late comments:
You are not stating the Conditions under which you want the Load to be subsonic, nor by how much.
I believe the Speed of Sound at Sea Level and Standard Humidity, Temperature, and Pressure is about 1124FPS.
Changes from those conditions changes the Local Speed of Sound.

It appears that in the .202 British Case you wil be using less than half volume charges, so us ea Filler above the Powder charge to confine it to the rear of the case.

To avoid Double charges you might make it a habit to insert a Bullet after charging the Case; which means single case in hand for charge and Seat of Bullet. the steps prior to Charging can be Batched, along with those steps following bullet seating.

At end of Session, weigh each Cartridge to double check for both Too light and too heavy ones (squibs and doubles).

Chev. William

[Conditor22]

there are few powders that I use a filler with. I find that pistol powers don't need fillers. 4895 is the only powder (I have) I use fillers with.

[35remington]

I will second the notion of charging a case and immediately seating a bullet. It is possible to miss a double charge of fast powder in a bottlenecked case even after shining a light down in it. Straight wall cases are somewhat less prone to this. The narrower neck prevents a comparative look at fill levels to some extent.

Hopefully the zest for more restrictions in NZ allows you to keep pursuing your interests. If your interests included semi automatics and some types of shotguns it sounds like that is in for some revision.

[303Guy]

All I can say is I've never had a powderless round since I stopped charging then seating. I was using the charge then seat method when I had that incident with a bullet in the throat. It made me wonder how many reported SEE's were the result of that exact same thing.

The conditions for subsonic would be sea level mostly. I would probably aim for 1050 fps I should think. That would keep it subsonic at higher altitudes too but I wasn't thinking about altitude effects. What works to 22lr subsonics should work for me and those run at 1050 fps.

I use a dacron positioner with most of my loads. I did a test once and I got the impression that firing the gun straight down did things to pressure with some powders. Not sure about that but it seems to make sense to hold the powder against the flash hole so that's what I do. It's a positioner, not a filler. It shouldn't have any detrimental effects although it may be necessary.

I want to try loading with Clays, H4227 and H4895. This particular boolit is the only boolit that aligns properly in the bore of this particular rifle. While I still want to suppress it, I also don't mind maximizing the velocity.