Loading blanks..?

[Marcus the Cat]

A friend of mine is shooting a short film around town and needs some fake gun play in it.

He asked me about making blanks because buying them is more expensive than regular ammo for some strange reason.

Anyone have the skinny on loading blanks..?

[HeavyMetal]

First blanks are dangerous! Mostly because people think they are harmless noise makers!

At point blank range they will completely penatrate an old school LA phone book! They will Kill and have killed on movie sets over the years!

Now that, I hope, I put the fear of God in you I will suggest your friend buys blanks as they require an extraordanary fast powder to make the realistic bang. Such compounds are rarely available to the average consumer and experimantation usually gets someone hurt.

I will also suggest he hire someone with gun safety knowledge to run all the "sets" where a firearm my be used and keep strict control of both blanks and guns when in use and when stored!

Bear in mind these "blank" accidents are every bit as damaging to our hobby as the rampaging nut job in a mall!

[ETG]

You need a blank crimp die. CH4D makes them. I make 38 short blanks to reload 37mm cases. 2-3 grains of Bullseye is all it takes to launch smoke or ???? hundreds of yards :D The die would probably cost more than just paying a little extra for the blanks.

[Marcus the Cat]

Thanks..!


You need a blank crimp die. CH4D makes them. I make 38 short blanks to reload 37mm cases. 2-3 grains of Bullseye is all it takes to launch smoke or ???? hundreds of yards :D The die would probably cost more than just paying a little extra for the blanks.

[geargnasher]

Or use a starter pistol painted the appropriate color, and make sure it is closely accounted for.

If you can't make the film "shots" without it being obvious the gun is just a noisemaker, try editing in non-firing shot sequences with a more realistic toy gun or one of the non-firing training models available from shooting suppliers for function training.

If muzzle flash is essential, do what ETG said, just be careful. When I first started reloading years ago I used to make "blanks" with magnum pistol primers and wads of cotton and a pinch of ash for use at a local theatre, but the gun had the cylinders welded just enough that they would only chamber cut-down brass, not loaded or even regular length brass (to eliminate accidental wadcutter use). Just a primer with a little cotton ball to build a little pressure will make quite a bang.
Gear

[Marcus the Cat]

Hey, I appreciate the effort, but I needed information on what I asked as ETG gave me, not a lecture.

I am new to this forum, not to firearms, so I am well aware of the dangers of blanks.

Thanks..!


First blanks are dangerous! Mostly because people think they are harmless noise makers!

At point blank range they will completely penatrate an old school LA phone book! They will Kill and have killed on movie sets over the years!

Now that, I hope, I put the fear of God in you I will suggest your friend buys blanks as they require an extraordanary fast powder to make the realistic bang. Such compounds are rarely available to the average consumer and experimantation usually gets someone hurt.

I will also suggest he hire someone with gun safety knowledge to run all the "sets" where a firearm my be used and keep strict control of both blanks and guns when in use and when stored!

Bear in mind these "blank" accidents are every bit as damaging to our hobby as the rampaging nut job in a mall!

[deltaenterprizes]

Since you are new here and no one is familiar with you or your knowledge and skill level and your profile is blank, caution is being advised. Safety is always FIRST and FOREMOST.
You have not indicated the caliber or type of action of the firearms that will be used.
I loaded blanks for my local Sheriff's Department for training for a few years, they are more trouble than loading real ammo.
There is also something called Product Liability Insurance and a Type 06 FFL and Federal Excise Tax that may interest you also.

[Marcus the Cat]

I don't know what calibers he will want yet, so I didn't want to speculate.

About the things I highlighted below...

That is a headache for the guy who asked me for advice and his producers. I'm just asking for info here on how to make them..! ;-)


Since you are new here and no one is familiar with you or your knowledge and skill level and your profile is blank, caution is being advised. Safety is always FIRST and FOREMOST.
You have not indicated the caliber or type of action of the firearms that will be used.
I loaded blanks for my local Sheriff's Department for training for a few years, they are more trouble than loading real ammo.
There is also something called Product Liability Insurance and a Type 06 FFL and Federal Excise Tax that may interest you also.

[MtGun44]

Semiautos pistols are very problematic with blanks. If you watch closely you will regularly
see jammed and locked back semiautos glossed over from one cut to the next. gun jammed
open in one, next cut (1 sec later) gun is functioning.

If you can get them to use revolvers, they will work a lot more reliably.

Bill

[deltaenterprizes]

Semiautomatic and full auto firearms require modifications to the barrel and sometimes the action to make them function with blanks. Revolver brass require modifications to the case that makes them dangerous if used for ammunition components by accident.
Most of the firearms used in Hollywood productions are so extensively modified they will not chamber live ammo and if they are forced to the gun will most probably blow up.

[Marcus the Cat]

I wonder if that is due to the overall shortness in length of the blank rounds..?


Semiautos pistols are very problematic with blanks. If you watch closely you will regularly
see jammed and locked back semiautos glossed over from one cut to the next. gun jammed
open in one, next cut (1 sec later) gun is functioning.

If you can get them to use revolvers, they will work a lot more reliably.

Bill

[deltaenterprizes]

Revolvers will jam also with out modifications to the brass.

[rbuck351]

If you want to use black powder they are easy. You need to drill out the primer flash hole to prevent the primer from backing out and stopping the cyl from turning. Once this is done these cases become dangerous to load with a bullet. Add a little black powder ( 5gr) and a cotton ball on top to hold the powder in. Do not point at anything you are not willing to destroy. Semi autos require mods that you probably don't want to do to your gun. And loading for anyone requires licenses and add a liability that I wouldn't touch. Using smokeless requires creating enough resistance on the powder to make a bang. That means either a shotshell type crimp or enough wad to create pressure. Wads make deadly projectiles for further than one would think. The answers you were given weren't really answers but were very good advice. I don't know you at all, but I still don't want to see you or anyone else get hurt. Be safe. If you make any blanks, make sure when you are done that you destroy the cases. All of them.

[Jim]

I worked up some blank loads awhile back for bottleneck rifle calibers and posted my results and data. I was severely chastised for this, so I decided to drop the subject.

[jdgabbard]

If you can use revolvers, you can fairly safely use just a empty brass with a primer it in. It makes a good bang, and without anything to launch out the barrel makes for a harmless blank... Unless you stick it in someone's face or ear... That will probably not be good for them...

[lwknight]

The problem with primer only blanks is that there is no pressure in the case to drive it back into the frame of the gun and the primer will kick out enough to stop the cylinder from rotating. I have loaded some BE in rifle cases before and got a loud noise but to me it did not sound like a real rifle shot. more like a loud short barreled small pistol.

I'm planning to use some BP with cream of wheat packed on top of it. I think it will give a realistic boom. Great for busting balloons.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I've used a small amount of bullseye, don't remember the charge, but probably less than 1gr, and some cardboard wads cut to size . . . VERY load inside of a building & unburnt powder! I then used just a primer . . . worked well for what I was doing . . . just making noise (nobody saw the gun in the play, but was to hear it go off) the other time we had a "Olympic race" at our church, and I used them as a starter gun. (I never had any problems with primer only jam ups)

Just remember that the primer is the only propellant in those glue/rubber bullets. . .

[Echo]

I remember reading an article by George Nonte where he advocated making BP blanks, similar to what RBuck said. Of course, one needs to thoroughly clean the weapon afterwards.

[bbs70]

I'm more curious about your town's ordinance on fire arms.
A while back I was thinking about shooting wax bullets with just a primer in my garage for practice.
I talked to a cop in town and he told me discharging any firearm in city limits is illegal, wax bullets, blanks, or not.
I would imagine in some places that would be a felony and jail time.

I'd check with the cops before I went any further with it.

[deltaenterprizes]

If you can use revolvers, you can fairly safely use just a empty brass with a primer it in. It makes a good bang, and without anything to launch out the barrel makes for a harmless blank... Unless you stick it in someone's face or ear... That will probably not be good for them...

NOT TRUE , take a primed case and stand about 5 feet away from a B-27 target mounted backwards on a wall and see what comes out of that barrel, there is glass mixed in with the priming compound to sensitize it . I am sure the actors in this film project will not be wearing eye protection.

[Marcus the Cat]

I talked to him again today and he wants semi-auto pistol for sure. Either 9mm, .40 S&W or .45acp. I told him those were all calibers I am familiar with and I will find out as much as I can about making blanks for them. I took a look at the blank loading dies and told him about those. I think a cursory look at blank prices and the $100 or so for one of those dies compared to how many rounds he wants to use, means they will be springing for a set of dies.

As for all of that city ordinance hub bub you speak of, that will be an issue for the producers of the film to deal with not me and I'm sure they know what they are doing. Either way it's out of my hands and not my problem. All I'm going to do is learn how to load them and show him what I learned. Then he will load them himself. That is as far as my involvement goes.


I'm more curious about your town's ordinance on fire arms.
A while back I was thinking about shooting wax bullets with just a primer in my garage for practice.
I talked to a cop in town and he told me discharging any firearm in city limits is illegal, wax bullets, blanks, or not.
I would imagine in some places that would be a felony and jail time.

I'd check with the cops before I went any further with it.

[mpmarty]

Better bone up on blank firing attachments. The military used them back when I was in and they were just caps or plugs that closed the muzzle enough to function the gas operated weapon with the blank charge.

[lwknight]

What I don't get is , why worry about factory blanks price? Auto pistol blanks are like $37.00 for 50. It seems such a petty expense in the scope of making a movie.
Also if you want the pistol to actuall cycle , you need a choked barrel to make it work. Also the top of the chamber has to be cut out for the blank case to be able to eject. This is because blanks are exactly the same dimentions as real loaded rounds and could not feed in the gun if you simply loaded some powder into an empty case.
After the expenses are added up it just seems that the blanks price is nothing.

[deltaenterprizes]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, that is why it has been recommended to leave it to professionals and purchase/rent blank firing guns and the proper ammo.
It will cost more and be more hazardous to attempt to do it with real firearms and homemade questionable quality blanks used by people that do not have a clue what they are doing.
This is not a game for amateurs, one or more people can get severely injured or killed when the feces hit the rotating oscillator!

[gray wolf]

I didn't want to get into this--but--

I must ERR on the side of safety. I agree with the others--leave it alone. DON'T DO IT.
You have said in your other posts that you are just getting into reloading AND casting
all at the same time. even if you are the wizz kid of the year--that is enough to keep you busy, and hope-fully safe.
The people in Hollywood get big bucks for this kind of thing. I would think if your movie Co.
was any kind of professional they would know this.


GW.

[Wayne Smith]

I have been loading since I was 16, some 40 years now, have been casting for about 10, have designed a boolit or two, have my FFL06, and believe I know a thing or two about life and such. I teach firearms safety and shooting.

I would not touch this for good money and a piece of a successful film. This sounds like a shoe string operation that is looking to cut corners. That has a strong potential for disaster. I would not help someone else cut corners on the use of firearms - and blanks are firearms - because my conscience would not let me forget it if there was a disaster. This one looks like a situation you should run from as quickly as possible.

I know the romance of the movies, the desire to help, and the desire to use one's knowledge productively. None of that is worth the injury or death of another.

The worst part of this is - you would have no control over how your knowledge was used.

[geargnasher]

Quote"As for all of that city ordinance hub bub you speak of, that will be an issue for the producers of the film to deal with not me and I'm sure they know what they are doing. Either way it's out of my hands and not my problem. All I'm going to do is learn how to load them and show him what I learned. Then he will load them himself. That is as far as my involvement goes."

If you think that's as far as your level of involvement will go if something goes wrong, you'll be in for quite a surprise when detectives knock on you door and start asking questions.

Trust the good folks trying to help you avoid a very possible disaster for you and others, just stay away from the project. Please understand that I'm not trying to insult your skills, intelligence, or any such thing, but some things are left up to true professionals that are Incorporated, bonded, insured, permitted, and have specialized attorneys on the payroll. When it comes to anything to do with firearms and liability comes up, the law and most communities are NOT going to be on your side.

If I were you, I would spend my time on the subject researching people in your area who can supply the blank guns, ammo, and appropriate training for actors, crew, producers, and all involved.

Gear

[PepperBuddha]

My brother asked me to help on a few independent movies. No matter how safe you think it is, it is probably illegal. He now works as a propmaster in Hollywood. There are like three levels of permits to do the stuff we used to do. In some areas a rubber prop pistol can be illegal...

[DLCTEX]

All this sure makes me happy I live in a small town in Texas. My church put on a Western skit for kids and they asked me to arrange guns and blanks. I did it under the agreement that I would have control of safety. Since we wanted smoke and noise and authenticity was not an issue, I loaded black powder and capped with wax. Some were 22's and I simply pulled the bullets and replaced the powder with black. Shotguns were loaded with black and cornmeal. The large pistol rounds had the primer pockets drilled as testing showed the primers backed out and locked up the revolver. I required all participants to have a training session and stressed the fact that even wax can be dangerous so all shooting was done with the barrel pointed up. We told the Sheriff's office what was to transpire and got a simple "OK". I did hurt one fellow's feelings who wanted to participate at the last minute by denying him due to his not showing up for training. He got over it. No permits required, no zoning restrictions, no BS red tape. Country living is good.

[Jim]

I lived in north east Texas for a little better than a year back in '05 & '06. I got involved with a group that did entertainment western shows once a month. We made our own blanks but under VERY strict guidelines and the Master @ Arms of the group inspected our blanks. We filled .45 Colt cases with 3fG and topped the case with florist's foam. The idea is that the foam disintegrates to nothing when the powder goes off so there's NO chance of anything coming out of the barrel. We were required to be AT LEAST 25 feet from each other when we opened fired on each other and we were taught to aim low at knee level. We attended a safety meeting an hour prior to the beginning of each show for a briefing, firearms inspection and ammunition inspection. The Master @ Arms took apart 3 random cartridges from each participant's ammo store and it there was anything other than florist's foam or loose 3fG in the case, that participant was not allowed to participate. We also were REQUIRED to have current insurance through the actors guild to participate.

The point of all this drivel? SAFETY!

One other thing I think is worth mentioning: If ANYTHING goes south in the use of the blanks, you'll be implicated in the law suit as being responsible for the development and manufacture of said blanks.
Trust me, it ain't worth getting involved. I would tell your friend I don't have the insurance, permits, license or technology to accomplish this. But that's just me. You're a grown man, you do as you see fit.

[HeavyMetal]

So, after reading the replies of others, I feel some what relieved that I am not the only one who's suggesting "advanced" safety and caution.

I was never "lecturing" merely pointing out the dangers and what might, and has, gone wrong in the past with movie making.

Marcus your an adult and can find your own way in the world and if you pursue this endover I wish you luck!

However: I reserve the right to say I told you so!

[deltaenterprizes]

A wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

[mpmarty]

A wise man learns from the mistakes of others.
And a fool does not learn at all.