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JohnH
04-26-2005, 09:50 PM
Seems that Winchester made 2 different 38's on the 45-70 case, the 38-56 and the 38-70 (they also did the 38-72, same case as the 405) can anyone shed any light on the 38-56 and 38-70?

45nut
04-26-2005, 11:38 PM
I happened across a Win 1886 in 38-56 a couple years ago at a yard sale.nice yard sale price too @ $400.00 ;-)

A couple calls and web searches led me to buy Lee dies over the green boxed monster priced set. RCBS asks $400 just for forming dies :-| Yikes. I called midway and got a Lee set for 30 bucks. Set some Winchester 45-70 cases lubed with some Imperial and in a coupla easy steps I had nice 38-56 ammo-to-be.
I was rather un-impressed with the first resulting targets however,my Lyman boolits dropped at .376 and the barrel slugged at .379. Not good.
I did eventually get some .379 boolits and flew them with the help of some 16grs of 2400 with very satisfying results.
Once the spell was broken the rifle became somewhat un-interesting however.
I guess it's a curse,we buy a gun and complain when the first steps are stumbles,then once it shoots we are bored. :-?
The 38-56 IS a impressive round,a pistol barrel would really be interesting .

Ballistics in Scotland
04-27-2005, 02:05 AM
I never used forming dies for the .40-82, and found that evenness of the neck thickness was just as good as the Bertram .45-90 cases I used. I don't know if the .38s would form quite as well in the resizing die, or whether you would ruin an occasional case. But it is certainly worth trying before you spend a lot.

The .38-70 should give a little more power with black powder, but there would be no difference with smokeless, and it lands you with using .45-90 cases, rather than the cheaper and better .45-70. It is, however, a considerably rarer rifle than the .38-56 1886.

I wouldn't have thought that a .001in. undersize bullet would do that much harm to accuracy, unless the alloy was very hard, and the loads were modest - which they don't have to be, with an 1886 in good condition. You get a good choice of cheap .375in. moulds, and I wouldn't despair of making this work - at least not too much to try one before investing in .379in. I would use a pretty soft alloy and medium-range loads, not low. If I thought the base of the bullet needed protecting, I would use a plug of wax cut from sheet, rather than any compressible wad or filler.

Buckshot
04-27-2005, 02:26 AM
Seems that Winchester made 2 different 38's on the 45-70 case, the 38-56 and the 38-70 (they also did the 38-72, same case as the 405) can anyone shed any light on the 38-56 and 38-70?

...........As previously posted, 38-56 = 45-70 formed with a straight taper, and then suitable parallel neck length to hold the boolit. Boolit wieghts similar to the 38-55 as is groove dimension.

38-70 = 45-90 formed as above, then trimmed back to 2.3". Same groove diameter as 38-56 and 38-55. Modest velocity increase with BP, useable increase with smokless. Watch pressures in original rifles.

38-72 = 405 Win sized straight taper, left full length at 2.58". Trim rims to .519". Same basic bullet diamter as the previous 2 cartridges.

From: Loading the Old Ones, 'Ken Waters'. Handloader Nov-Dec 1989.

...............Buckshot

JohnH
04-27-2005, 08:26 PM
Thanks guys. Occasionally I get one of those "wonder how this would work" ideas. I really like my 38-55 NEF barrel. Having tha barrel started out as a desire for a 375 JDJ, but alas, the New Gun Fairy don't come by here too often. NEF uses .379 for their groove diameter yet the 375 JDJ uses .375 Figured I cold rechamber a 38-55 NEF barrel and use either of the 38-56 or 38-70, and have chamber/barrel/case and bullets properly sized for fit. Just one of those things that make ya go Hmmmmmmmmmmm...... I may try this one day, probably use the 38-56, brass is more common and far less expensive, and any difference the extra capacity of the 38-70 could make wouldn't matter to me any way. Thanks again, John