Do you think they put taggants in gunpowder?

[Marlin Hunter]

I have seen a lot of unburnt powder flakes in my rifle, pistol, and shotgun from shooting reloads. I never seen this before. Have the powder companies started to put taggants in gunpowder?

[dominicfortune00]

Try burning some of the powder unconfined on a safe surface and see if anything is left.

[softpoint]

No. Some powders can be identified as to type, like blue dot, red dot, etc. but thats about it.

[lwknight]

I wouldn't be surprised at anything but, I have had unburned powder flakes in powders made in the 70s before all that control stuff was such a big deal.

[fishhawk]

nope no way to do it and maintain the uniform dispershal through the powder and not affect preshures or safety. if the taggants would settle out you might have a charge of just taggants in some cartriges! steve k

[deltaenterprizes]

There is a dye of some type that identifies canister powder,the type sold for reloading, so it can be determined if tha ammo was factory(OEM) or reloads but no taggants.

[Edubya]

There is a dye of some type that identifies canister powder,the type sold for reloading, so it can be determined if tha ammo was factory(OEM) or reloads but no taggants.
Delta, do have a reliable source for that bit of information, or are we gonna start an internet rumor?
EW

[Shiloh]

There is a dye of some type that identifies canister powder,the type sold for reloading, so it can be determined if tha ammo was factory(OEM) or reloads but no taggants.

Not to be a mal-content or trouble maker, but are you sure??

This was discussed by congress once as smokeless propellent, evil stuff, was available to the masses. They wanted to regulate and put taggants in all powders.

Powder manufacturers said there were risks.
The taggants could not be made of the same specific gravity. They would settle or migrate to the top of the supply depending on density, causing spikes in pressure.
Things may have changed since then. Same with the dyes.

Shiloh

[swheeler]

There is a dye of some type that identifies canister powder,the type sold for reloading, so it can be determined if tha ammo was factory(OEM) or reloads but no taggants.

I really find that hard to believe, have you confirmed this with Snopes? he-he-he

[JIMinPHX]

I've shined a black light at a pan full of powder before. Nothing showed up.

[geargnasher]

I've shined a black light at a pan full of powder before. Nothing showed up.

Were you wearing your UV filter glasses?

Gear

[357maximum]

Were you wearing your UV filter glasses?

Gear

and a tinfoil hat:groner:

[XWrench3]

Some powders burn cleaner than others. Also, if there is not enough pressure, sometimes the powder does not burn completely. Are you sure one of these isnt what you are experiencing?

[mpmarty]

Various plastique such as Semtex C4 etc. explosives have taggants in them. I do not believe there are any in nitrocellulose propellants.

[Daddyfixit]

I don't know for sure but I notice when I use Red Dot in my shot guns I see some "dots" after shooting. The same dots I see using Blue Dot in my .357 & .44......I thought they were just the colored dots that were in the powder for ID that didn't burn?

[JIMinPHX]

Were you wearing your UV filter glasses?

Gear

No,
I don't have a pair of those.

I was just using a UV flashlight that I use for spotting scorpions at night.

[Rocky Raab]

Taggants and "shelf-life" primers are two internet hoaxes that will never go away. Just when you think they have passed into oblivion, SOMEBODY will bring the whole stupid thing up again.

[Beerd]

you mean primers don't have a shelf life?
and here I've been trying to shoot mine up as fast as I buy them.
..

[mpmarty]

In 1968 I bought a box of Alcan Max Fire LR primers that were reduced to $1.50 for a thousand as they were "old stock". I've still got them and they work just fine. I'd guess that primers have a half life of around a hundred years.

[Fixxah]

If your crimp is not tight enough this will not allow the pressure to consume all the powder, correct? There was a discussion about something very similar on another forum. It dealt more with crimp and zero to do with "taggarts" but I think it is relative to unburnt powder. Here is the link. http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php/88197-How-do-you-measure-crimp

[JSnover]

Even if you burned all of the powder, if each powder is different then the residue left by each would also be different. Wouldn't it?

[deltaenterprizes]

Delta, do have a reliable source for that bit of information, or are we gonna start an internet rumor?
EW

I was told it by a law enforcement officer friend. The factories need to be able to distinguish their products from handloaded ammo for liability problems or every blown up gun could be blamed on factory ammo and put the ammo companies out of business.
The powders used for factory ammo is not the same as the powder sold to handloaders. I was in the commercial ammo reloading business for 12 years.

[303Guy]

I inrease powder charge until the unburned granules go away. Heavier boolits help a lot. Firing into a 'test tube' reveals just how much unburned powder there is (partially burned, actually).

[sagacious]

I don't want to take sides in a squabble, but this one is pretty easy to put to rest.

A test for chemical tagging agents on a blown-up gun would only reveal that the firearm in question had been used with factory ammo at some time in the past, but it's blatantly obvious that it could never exclude or confirm the use of reloaded ammo at the time of any mishap. The ammo manufacturers surely recognize this inescapable fact. Anyone could shoot a box of factory stuff, and then some handloads... I see exactly that all the time. There's no way to tell which were shot first.

Besides, gunpowder msds sheets are posted openly on many powder manufacturer's websites. To prove the presence of chemical tags or dyes, all one has to do is point at the chemical tag on the msds list, and say, "Yup, it's that chemical right there!" Those who hold faith in the 'taggant' theory have their work cut out for them.

A claim such as this one requires a more rigorous standard of evidence than "my friend told me."

[303Guy]

Another snippet - my late Uncle was an armourer in WWII in Egypt. He told me of the firing of 50 Browning machine guns and that there was so much unburned powder on the ground they had to sweep it up with brooms! You can't get more factory than military ammo!

[Bent Ramrod]

Last I heard, the most "practical" taggant was very small chips of laminated plastic, with the pattern of laminations different for every manufacturer and maybe even lot number. An explosion would singe the edges of these chips, but supposedly the centers would be available for microanalysis in the residue of the blast.

I seem to recall that 3M held the patent on this and was especially anxious to get it forced on all the powder companies so they could amortise their investment.

The problem is that nobody is eager to put unknown, untested materials into explosive and propellant formulations and leave it to luck and time to see if they are compatible and go on working as they are supposed to. Except maybe lawmakers, with their heartfelt convictions that nothing that comes out of their fine minds could ever go wrong or have any untoward consequences. So far, we've avoided this one.

[TAWILDCATT]

I was a AOM and that about the 50 is bull.in which case the wings would be full or the tanks OR.
RED DOT is just that red dots in the powder.
and the powders are the same composition the factory loaded powder is not any different than canister just more exact between lots.
where do those people come from Mars.
WW1 solders talked about there 30/30s in combat.WW2 soldiers put loaded rds in rifles for blanks [japanese].and WW1 solders blew up 1903s with 8 mm mauser.

[Shiloh]

Various plastique such as Semtex C4 etc. explosives have taggants in them. I do not believe there are any in nitrocellulose propellants.

That is correct. Semtex and C-4 however are high velocity explosives, not propellants.

SHiloh

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

My blue dot starts out very dark (maybe "navy blue") . . . I get some powder residue . . . it is a golden color . . . still in the original shape . . . doubt very much it is anything other than not completely burnt (consumed) powder . . .

[WILCO]

He told me of the firing of 50 Browning machine guns and that there was so much unburned powder on the ground they had to sweep it up with brooms!

Did he ever say what they were to do with it afterwards?

[Rocky Raab]

There are only three possibilities:

1. They DO put taggants in canister gunpowder. If so, it is there to trace back the source of somebody who made a "device." If it doesn't affect your load data or results, what difference does it make to YOU?

2. They do NOT put taggants in canister gunpowder. If not, all this hullaballoo is meaningless.

3. You can't tell if they do or don't put taggants in canister gunpowder. In that case, it makes no difference to you AND discussing it is meaningless.

[HammerMTB]

There are only three possibilities:

1. They DO put taggants in canister gunpowder. If so, it is there to trace back the source of somebody who made a "device." If it doesn't affect your load data or results, what difference does it make to YOU?

2. They do NOT put taggants in canister gunpowder. If not, all this hullaballoo is meaningless.

3. You can't tell if they do or don't put taggants in canister gunpowder. In that case, it makes no difference to you AND discussing it is meaningless.


Rocky, I suggest there is a 4th possibility: There are taggants in gunpowder and they DO make a difference in loads and results. I have cans of powder from the late 70's/early 80's. Then there were no taggants. Data developed from those cannisters would not apply to a new cannister.

And, to add to many other posts, I get partially burnt powder coming out of the bbl and brass often. Don't know whether to assess that as poor efficiency of the load, or simply a powder that tends to burn dirty, or some other factor. Never thought of any of it as possibly being taggants, tho...

[Rocky Raab]

Hammer, in reality, there are no taggants in canister powders. It was proposed and absolutely rejected years ago (as was noted in posts above). The difference in load data is due solely to changes in formula, different makers and/or improved testing methods compared to back in the 70s/80s.

Unburnt powder is due primarily to an inefficient load and to a small extent to other factors. ANY load that does not develop the optimum pressure profile for the powder used will not burn well. It's that simple.

In addition, there is usually some powder that never even ignites. Bottleneck rifle rounds create a tightly-compressed plug of powder behind the bullet (especially if the bullet base is above the shoulder) and that plug is ejected from the muzzle unburnt.

[Marlin Hunter]

The reason why I originally asked about the taggants was because I am getting a LOT of unburnt powder with my reloads. I could see a few powder and cartridge combinations having left over powder, but this is with all my reloads using newly purchased powder. I have not been getting it with factory ammo from foreign countries. I know there was talk about taggants 20-30+ years ago. I was just wondering if they snuck them in without anyone knowing about it. Technology changes, and in the past 20 years they could have come up with a better taggant. It is not a rumor, they do exist. I just don't know if they are put in our reloading powder.

[340six]

If your crimp is not tight enough this will not allow the pressure to consume all the powder, correct? There was a discussion about something very similar on another forum. It dealt more with crimp and zero to do with "taggarts" but I think it is relative to unburnt powder. Here is the link. http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php/88197-How-do-you-measure-crimp

I have found that in red dot in a 357 load was the "OLD RED DOT" I still have some and does not do it in 9mm.

[44man]

Many things contribute to unburned powder from too much primer pressure, not enough case tension, light for caliber boolits, too low a charge of slow powder, powder too slow for the barrel length, etc.
The shotgun is the biggest offender because of the large space where powder can not be in contact with other powder that is burning. Crimps can open too fast and the powder space gets large too fast.
Compare to a fire where one piece of wood quits burning but if you have three pieces or more, you have a nice fire.

[44man]

In addition, there is usually some powder that never even ignites. Bottleneck rifle rounds create a tightly-compressed plug of powder behind the bullet (especially if the bullet base is above the shoulder) and that plug is ejected from the muzzle unburnt.
You do not need a bottle neck to see this. We were shooting Pyrodex out of 45-70's and compressed it pretty good. Accuracy just went away and then I seen flares coming out of the muzzle, going out into the grass and burning. Shooting those things in a dry woods would get a guy arrested for arson! [smilie=1:
Now these were shot with over 500 gr boolits, oversize for the bore and barrels to 34". Yet all of that could not hold the burn back and a lot of powder came out of the muzzle.
I had the same thing with my 10" barrel BFR 45-70 with 3031 powder. Even the empty case had unburned powder left in it plus the bore. A lot of muzzle flash and very low velocities. Just the wrong powder.