How About Spotting Scopes?

[montana_charlie]

Anybody up for a discussion on the ins and outs of the target shooter's looking glass?

I have some opinions (gleaned from reading on the birder's sites), and some questions. What I don't have is a large pile of money...or a spotting scope.
Another thng I lack is a place to go to look through an assemblage of tubes.

So, I'm hoping that the membership includes owners of a variety of scopes, so that some 'virtual comparison' is possible, And I'm hoping that some of the participants are technically knowledgeable enough to discuss the difference between BK 7 and BaK 4 glass.

Anyone want to lead off with praise for his Kowa or Konus?
CM

[6pt-sika]

I've had one for about 5 years now . Only one I've ever owned . It's a Leupold 15-45x . Paid I believe $200 .
Before I got the spotting scope , I used my loading scope (6.5-20x Leupold) . I always use this scope when I'm working up loads. Very good for seeing bullet holes .:mrgreen:

[montana_charlie]

Well, my experience with spotting scopes is very limited.

Maybe ten years ago I needed a scope for a 30-06 rifle. I happened on a good deal on a Simmons Prosport variable, and was pretty happy with the clarity and all. A few years later, the wife of a friend wanted to give him a spotter for Christmas, and asked me to pick one. After talking price with her, I picked a Simmons 20-60 X 60 that looked pretty good to me. I even used it for a day to watch a redtailed hawk from my window.
(That particular model got replaced with another design a couple of years later, and that new shape is now being sold as the H2O by Bushnell (I think).)

My friend was not extremely pleased with my choice.
He is better off in the bucks department than I, and when he told his wife a 'good' spotter might make a nice present, he really meant a GOOD spotting scope.

So, I have 'one day's worth' of spotting scope experience under my belt...and that with a less-than-$200-including-tripod class of scope.

I have recently had increased interest in owning a spotter, so I have been reading stuff.
This guy ( http://www.jarheadtop.com/ ) got me to considering the Konus products, and I have seen folks who are delirious over their new Celestron Ultima 80.
Something I read said those are both the same scope, but the Konus is mounted in a ring which allows the scope to rotate axially. Neither is water-or-fogproof, nor nitrogen purged.

I had a very brief chance to look through the Konuspot 80 at the recent Great Falls gun show. All I had time to do was focus on some distant trees, and go from 20x to 60x. I must say that the amount of 'darkening' at high power was considerably less than the old 60mm Simmons I had for a day. I could probably live with the Konus, but I wish I'd had a chance to check it out more thoroughly.

In the water-and-fogproof department, and still staying near the $200-or-below mark, the Simmons Wilderness claims to be impervious to the elements. It only has a 77mm objective, and they don't offer an angled eyepiece...but it uses BaK4 glass for the prisms.
According to the 'birders', Bak4 is a necessity for 'clarity', and low ED glass in the lenses is required for 'true color'. Having both of those kicks you up into the $600 and above range.

As a shooter, I would appreciate all the 'clarity' I can afford...but I could get by with a black and white picture. So, I will stay away from those high-dollar tubes with the 'true color' low ED lenses, but having prisms with better-than-BK7-glass sounds useful.

I would very much like to hear other opinions on that particular aspect.

Yesterday, I happened upon a post by a guy who was bubbling over about his buddy's new NcStar 30-90 x 90mm for less than $180. So, I went on a hunt for specifications. NcStar doesn't produce an 80mm objective, so I gave up on that brand. But, while searching, I found the Vanguard scopes.

Turns out that the Vanguard VSP series is water-and-fogproof, nitrogen purged, has an angled eyepiece, and uses BaK4 prisms. The VSP-81 kit (their 80mm) includes the scope, hard case, soft case, and tripod...and you can find it for less than $170.

Strangely, when searching for Vanguard, you often end up looking at Winchester scopes. The Winchester WT-8 looks identical to the Vanguard VSP-81, and has mostly the same accessories...but the Winchester branded tubes cost about $20 less and the high grade prism glass is never mentioned in the description.

So there it is...that is about all I know on this subject.

Now, I'd like to hear what y'all have to say about your experience with spotting scopes. If you have looked through the Simmons Wilderness or the Vanguard VSP-81, I would really like to hear your comments.
CM

[David R]

I have read much about clarity on spotting scopes. My only question is "Can you see 22 holes in the black at 100 yards? 200?.....

David

[montana_charlie]

The guy at jarheadtop (link above) says the Konus will show you .223 holes at 200 and 300 yards...and that would be looking through BK7 prisms.

[wills]

Here is some discussion on the subject.


http://groups.msn.com/bpcr/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=27573&LastModified=4675565788817410529&all_topics=1


http://groups.msn.com/bpcr/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=26582&LastModified=4675557277537843111&all_topics=1

http://groups.msn.com/bpcr/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=26582&LastModified=4675557277537843111&all_topics=1

[montana_charlie]

Yep, wills, I am familiar with those. I found and read the bottom discussion(s) last winter, and the top link points to a thread I participated in...asking the same questions that are still on my mind.
ScouT, the participant of that thread who seemed to be the most technically well-informed, apparently got tired of my questions and quit the discussion. He provided some very useful knowledge, but never addressed the specifics that I was wondering about.

The only difference between then and now is that (back then) I was not aware of the existence of the Vanguard scopes.

What I am hoping to find (for this thread) is the guy...the 'continual upgrader' guy...who started with the tube from the toilet paper and worked his way up to the Swarovski, after owning most of the in-betweens. He just might have looked through one of the models I am interested in...or learned enough on his journey to talk about technicalities.

Are you out there, Jim?
CM

[Scrounger]

Been fooling around with scopes, including spotting scopes, a long time and this is the conclusion I have come to: Scopes, like rifles and cars and everything else, don't necessarily correlate between quality and price. I have had expensive glass, Burris for instance, that was inferior to Bushnell. And the clearest scope I ever had was a Tasco bought on closeout for $17. You want to see bullet holes at 200 yards? The quality of your eyes and the quality of the target are definitely part of the equation. Any Bushnell, Simmons, Tasco will show you .22 caliber holes at 100 yards even at 9 power. A 20X spotting scope from any of these companies will show you .22 caliber holes at 200 yards with a good target. That's good enough for me and these scopes can be had at reasonable prices. Now if for some reason you need to see .22 caliber holes at 300 yards, maybe a very expensive scope will do that for you; I wouldn't know, never tried them. Buy a scope that fills your needs, don't feel like you have to buy a BMW just because someone else has one. Besides, I have this feeling that picking up wheelweights and buying Swarovskis are contradictary policies, sort of like driving up to McDonald's in a limo and buying off the $1.00 menu....

[Ranch Dog]

Bushnell Trophy (http://www.bushnell.com/products/spotting_scopes/specs/78-2550.cfm) for me. Use it on the range and for hunting. I've been a Bushnell scope guy for years and when I saw that the outfit I hunt desert mule deer with used this scope exclusively I bought one.

http://www.bushnell.com/products/spotting_scopes/specs/images/78-2550_th.jpg

I broke the eye piece off of mine being stupid and Bushnell replaced it under warranty even though it wasn't their fault. I sent it with a letter explaining the damage and asking for an estimate for repair and they returned it repaired with a letter thanking me for buying their products! This has been my experience with Bushnell's warranty and customer service for over 30 years.

[Char-Gar]

I started in the mid-50 with a 24X Unertl and have never had a better scope. It was stolen (about 1959) after a match in Mexico with our team and a Mexican Army team. After the match the cerveza and food flowed and somebody didn't keep a good lookout on one bag and my scope was in it.

Being short of money, I replaced it with a Swift which was good enough but not a Unertl.

When I moved to South American in 1977 I sold it at a garage sale.

Back in the State in 1983, I need a new scope. Weaver had just sold it's name and the existing inventory went on auction in El Paso. I bought a Weaver Spotting scope and several rifle scopes at the auction. That El Paso made Weaver was every bit as good as the Unertl. What a glass!

Alas, the Weaver was stolen from my pickkup in 1993. Being short on cash I replaced it with a *** low end Simmons.

In 2000, I picked up a late 40's Argus with Freeland stand on Ebay for $75.00. It is head and shoulders above the Simmons, good as the Swift but short of the Unertl and Weaver.

Variable seem to be the fad today, but a fixed power will always be sharper and seldom is there any need for the high end of the variables.

If I had plenty of cash, I would buy one of the high end Kowa scopes that are the darling of the ranges now. But...until I win the lottery, me and the old Argus will just keep plugging along.

[223tenx]

Guys,
I worked in a gunstore for the past two years and we had a pile of NcStar scopes that the lenses had fallen out. They were so cheap that the store didn't bother returning them because they had so little money in them. They wouldn't hold up to recoil at all. There was a Chinese brand that was a very good inexpensive scope. It was very bright and clear all the wat through the focus adjustment. For the life of me I can't remember the brand. I'll post it if I can remember it. "Leapers" was the brand. it just came to me. I think sometimes I have Mad Cow Disease ala Denny Crane.

[Blackwater]

FWIW, I got a deal on a BSA 15-60x60 spotter, and wasn't impressed at all with mine. However, these scopes seem to vary from individual to individual, and maybe one might serve. The focal depth is pretty critical, and the adjustments a bit loose, which compounded the problem of getting it focused right. I wouldn't buy another.

Then I got a Burris Landmark 15-45x60. It's a lot better than the BSA I had. Gave the BSA to my grandson to look at the moon, etc. At least it'll pique his curiosity, maybe. The Landmark is pretty good for the price, I think, but its focal range is fairly thin, as was the BSA's. The focusing adjustments are a lot tighter, though, and for my uses, that's just enough to get me by. As to the optics, if the light's decent, I think I can see bullet holes at 300 - surely .30 cal, and probably .22's, depending on light level and angle. It's not the best scope, but then, I didn't pay what a best quality scope runs, either, so I think it'll do for what I need it to do. Sure saves a lot of walking, and summertime shooting in south Ga. gets HOT, and all steps saved are really appreciated!

I've seen Bushnell's 20-60x80mm. and it's a BIG scope - bigger than I'd like a scope to be, actually - but its optics, focal depth and definition was the best I've ever personally seen. I think that one's something like $600? Memory fails me, but somewhere in that general range at least. I was VERY impressed by this scope. It was amazingly bright, compared to the cheaper stuff I've been used to, and brighter than the mid-level scopes I've peered through.

As Scrounger noted, though, it just doesn't take a top of the line spotter to "git'r done" on the range for most of us, and there just seems to be a contradiction in shooting cast with a high dollar scope. Well, I DO like my Leupold scopes, but .... maybe a man's allowed a FEW contradictions???? ;^)

[Uncle R.]

I currently own two spotting scopes - a Bushnell Sentry 40 x 50mm that I use for my day-to-day spotting, and a Bushnell Spacemaster 60x 60mm. Both are more than 20 years old, so they're not multi-coated or BAK-anything glass. Either can spot .22 holes at 200 yards in good light when the holes are in the white but it's not at all easy to spot them at 200 when they're in the black. I've been thinking for several years that I need a better spotter, but haven't taken the plunge yet.
Yesterday at the range I got a chance to look through an 80mm Konus scope. It was very impressive for a $200 scope and was head and shoulders over my 50mm Sentry at 200 yards, as it should be. To paraphrase - "A good big lens will beat a good little lens every time.":roll:
Last year another shooter was using a Winchester 60mm spotting scope and graciously let me try it out. I was unimpressed - it was a seriously nasty package of flare, chromatic aberration (multicolored halos) and generally couldn't compete with the old Sentry even though it had a bigger lens. YECH!
In my admittedly small experience it takes a honkin' good and big scope to reliably spot 22 holes at 200 yards when they're in the black. One hazy, overcast day last year I was having trouble doing just that when another shooter let me try a big Nikon spotter that he was (justifiably) proud of. I don't recall the model or specifics but I think he said he'd paid about $600 for it.
That Nikon was unquestionably better than my old Spacemaster on that day, but only by a couple of clicks. It was still about all we could do with it to spot .22 holes in the black at 200. It's hard to believe that anything selling at a workingman's price could do it reliably at three hundred yards or more.
I'd been thinking I'd order an 80 mm Burris Landmark but maybe that Konus would be a better deal. It sure would be nice to be able to set up a dozen competing scopes at the range and compare them side-by-side.

[straightshooter1]

I tried many scopes. Some were better than others, but almost every other high power shooter used a Kowa and, finally, I bought one. I got the 20-60 variable, even though most others preferred a straight 20 or 30 power. I love mine and hope to never have to buy another.

Bob