Felix, Enlighten Me

[JohnH]

In a post Ben made on shooting his 250 Savage, you tell him that hiw 2400 load is too slow, and causing vertical stringing, advising him to use a faster powder. A lot of the groups I shoot using 7 grians of Bartletts #107 look just like that, I'm shooting 7.3 grains in 357 Max, 44 Mag and 38-55.

In the 357 Max, the Lee 158 RF bullet makes nice groups averaging 1 1/4-1/2", use the grou buy 180 instead, and it makes nice round holes, but use the Lyman 190 RN and I get vertically strung groups just likes Bens picture.

The 44 with Lee's 200 RF likes this just fine as it does with a plain base 265.

The 38-55 gives vertical groups using Lee's 250 RF. Some times strung end on end like Bens, sometimes a group 1" wide and 2" tall, but always vertical.

Can you shed some light on this phenonema?

[felix]

In a post Ben made on shooting his 250 Savage, you tell him that hiw 2400 load is too slow, and causing vertical stringing, advising him to use a faster powder. You will always get vertical stringing when the powder does not ignite the same way from round to round. 2400 has lots of deterrent. It would not exhibit a fault if the case volume were smaller. A filler should help with this powder in this case size. It will if the powder can stay next to the primer long enough, and that can be helped with an easy primer. Forceful primers have to be avoided when using any kind of a loose filler. Best to move to a faster powder in this situation.


A lot of the groups I shoot using 7 grians of Bartletts #107 look just like that, I'm shooting 7.3 grains in 357 Max, 44 Mag and 38-55. See the note above. I realize this powder is considerably faster than 2400 and more like HS7, right? That would be between Herco and BlueDot. Try moving to a single base powder if you cannot make BlueDot work. A good one at the same speed would be VV-N105, and that is a 20 dollar per pound item. We have to get around that ignition problem somehow. You might try for sh-ts and giggles a case filling filler. I suggest using a plastic shotgun filler only with only very slight compression. Pistol cases in quantity get banged around a lot, in pant pockets, etc., and using a holey and puffy filler like kapok would not be feasible for MY tastes.

In the 357 Max, the Lee 158 RF bullet makes nice groups averaging 1 1/4-1/2", use the grou buy 180 instead, and it makes nice round holes, but use the Lyman 190 RN and I get vertically strung groups just likes Bens picture. First thing, check the boolit pull between the various boolits. If they are the same, then we can blame the powder by being TOO FAST for the heavier boolit. The powder is peaking pressure too quickly, and some, but not all, powders exhibit a non-linear response when just over the edge in its max pressure capability. This is not an ignition problem, unless the boolit pull is screwed up somehow, someway. Move to BlueDot for a re-run.

The 44 with Lee's 200 RF likes this just fine as it does with a plain base 265. OK, noted.

The 38-55 gives vertical groups using Lee's 250 RF. Some times strung end on end like Bens, sometimes a group 1" wide and 2" tall, but always vertical. Add more powder to buckle down its grouping ability. If the groups get wilder, then go to a slower powder.

Can you shed some light on this phenonema? Hope I did a little, anyway. Come back after some more playing around.

... felix

[felix]

You have to open the post to read it. We have a program bug here. ... felix

[JohnH]

Open the post??? I did, last night. Me thinks I'm missing something on this....

Anyway, Today I started with the 357 Maximum (rifle) and the Lee 158 RF over the same 7.3 grains of #107. I began by loading 10 rounds and using some of the polyester filler from stuffed toys my dog chews up, we have a constant source. With these I pulled a pinch about kidney bean size and pushed it don in the case. These 10 shot one of the best groups I've seen from this rifle, 8 of 10 in 3/4". But the 2 fliers wiere farther out that what I would normally expect making the 10 shots in 2 1/2". Kinda large for this load, so I loaded another 10 and was rewarded with similar results, 7 of 10 in 1" and 3 making 2 1/2". Before I shrugged and walked I figured that I would double the size of filler, this would bring it to the case mouth, and with a bullet seated would be somewhat compresed but not hard compressed. The next group was possibly one ofthe best I've ever seen from this rifle with a cast bullet 8 of 10 were in a group 3/4" wide by 1 1/4" long with the remaining fliers low but only opening the group to 1 5/8". (all sizes are outside to outside of bullet holes) Was dark by this time, so tomorrow I plan on a repeat of the last load to see if this result holds.

For a long time Ihave been unwilling to try fillers, probably a combination of too much propaganda and just plain bad information. as a side, I didn't find any tufts about after firing. Thanks for your help.

[Scrounger]

John, before you get too deep in your fillers, please try this: IF you're not getting pressure signs now with your present load, load ten with 7.8 grains of powder and ten with 8.3 grains. Just try it.

[JohnH]

I have tried 8.3, no significant change in groups or the pattern of the groups. The pattern of the groups today is what caught my attention. Even with the fliers, the shots fell more consistantly on the target. I didn't shoot 10 and have 8 together, I shot 10 and had two fliers, quite a difference when you think of it.

[Scrounger]

My next thought would be it is a bedding problem or crown problem. On rifles with two piece stocks, it's very important that the butt stock is firmly attached to the receiver and has absolutely no play in it.