American Pioneer Powder

[versifier]

Anybody tried any of this in their front stuffers? They make some interesting claims for it.

[ourway77]

As far as being very expensive, I see no advantage over 777. My buddy bought some and we went to the range, he bought it in pellet form darnest thing the pellets are squre. Well we both shoot the same guns, his gun did not shoot the AMP powder well at all, I was shooting 777 2F same bullet way better group. But that could be that my rifle just likes what I feed it. One thing i did notice it seemed to leave a sort of white substance in his barrel and he never swabbed between shots, so maybe there is some valitity to all the claims. For me it's 777 all the way 2f loose. Every firearm are head strong alot like my wife LOL

[twotoescharlie]

burns clean and easy cleanup, that's about all it has going for it.


TTC

[RugerFan]

I had used 777 for some time (powder in my GPR and pellets in my inline). A definite improvement over Pyrodex. The only thing I didn't like was the infamous "crud ring" that collects just in front of the breech. I tried American Pioneer (powder, not pellets yet) on a whim and am now sold on it. Although I don't think it burns as clean as they claim, its still the cleanest BP substitute I've used and accuracy is excellent.

[Old Ironsights]

Wildly variable SD between loads.

Is one of the few fake powders that will ignite (very slowly) in a flinter pan.

Super easy cleanup - but then, so is real Black Powder.

Only thing I use it for is testing Flint Lock functionality, as I can "Foop" it in my basement shop without setting off the smoke detector of Wife.

[shooter575]

I just can't see anyone buying any of the subs when the real stuff is soo cheep in quanity. I just bought 25 lb box Goex for $244.00 Easy clean up.Once you work up a proper load you never need to re figure till that lot is gone.Maybe I am just lazy!

[Buckshot]

......................Shooter575, I hear ya! All they way with the real deal. But remember a lot of shooters don't have ready access to real BP. Also buying a 25lb case just isn't realistic for the amount of shooting being done.

I bought a couple cases back in 2002 and have about a case left. Every can I use now I save about $8 but the expense at the time gave me a nose bleed.

................Buckshot

[Powderpacker]

The label on the bottle of Pioneer I have (ffg) says "use no lubes". Does that mean you don't need to use lubes or 'DO NOT USE LUBES' ? If you can't use lubes it kinda limits the projectiles you can shoot.

[mooman76]

The label on the bottle I have (ffg) says "use no lubes". Does that mean you don't need to use lubes or 'DO NOT USE LUBES' ? If you can't use lubes it kinda limits the projectiles you can shoot.

Bottle of what? I would contact the manufacturer for clarification. If they so no lube. I would not buy it any more but I couldn't see it going that far. I would imaging they mean no lube nessisary because of a claim of no fouling but that is just speculation!

[RugerFan]

As I recall, the "no lube" statement was because the lack of fouling made lubing unecessary. I use American Pioneer in my .50 cal inline with plastic sabots/.429 bullets, so I don't lube anyway.

[bsn]

It burns clean and the sabots go down the barrel much easier than with 777 or Pyrodex. Accuracy in my .45 Disc Elite Knight is quite good at under an inch at 100 yards. The 2F is quite coarse and doesn't meter very well, the 3F meters much better.

[Powderpacker]

There was a dealer at the Indy 1500 show last weekend that had a good selection of American Pioneer Powders. I asked him about the 'use no lubes' thing on the label . He said he had been using the powders about as long as they've been on the market but never noticed the 'use no lubes' . He also said he shoots mostly well lubed minis, maxies & conicals and has never had a problem with the lube/powder combination. He checked through his dealer info sheets from the company and found nothing that said lube could not be used. So, I guess 'no lube' is just an option .

[jh45gun]

The stuff has a crappy shelf life after being opened it will not last a year and closer to 6 months is more realistic so if you get some shoot it up right away or it will be wasted. :(

[RugerFan]

The stuff has a crappy shelf life after being opened it will not last a year and closer to 6 months is more realistic so if you get some shoot it up right away or it will be wasted. :(

I disagree. I use AP powder and have never had a problem with the stuff going bad. As a matter of fact, I was at the range today shooting my MLs. Used AP powder that was from a bottle that had been opened quite a while ago and the stuff worked just fine.

[Howdy Doody]

I shot a lot of APP. Real BP is not available locally due to restrictions. I liked it for it's lube properties. However it clumps and it bridges in a measure and even in a flask, so you have to make sure you have the charge you want going. Then I tried the new Goex Pinnacle. Made by APP for Goex. It is black and it has the same no lube needed properties, but it doesn't clump and measure pretty well in a Lyman measure too.
You can shoot it (APP or Pinnacle or even 777 for that matter) with smokeless lubes, only liquid alox or no lube at all. I tried just that in a 1894 Marlin .38. 60 rounds and there was no leading and accuracy was good at about 35 yards or so. You get no lube star at the muzzle that way and it looks scary, but the stuff works. I generally just pan lube my bullets with a BP type mix, but I have experimented to see just what I can get away with.
Clean up,same as BP. I use windex with vinagar and my guns clean right up. The only drawback to APP/Pinnacle/777 is no flame.:( I don't particularly care for pyrodex. Just me I suppose, but I don,t like the smell or the way it gets corrosive if not cleaned up right away.
That has been my experience with APP.

[jh45gun]

Well the local gun shop black powder guy claims he has had the stuff go bad after opening. I had a bottle of the for-runner of APP (Clean shot) and it seems to have lost some of its zip after being opened for a while. I am about ready to go back to black. It is cheaper and has a lot better shelf life plus it does not leave a crud ring like 777 does.

[RugerFan]

Well the local gun shop black powder guy claims he has had the stuff go bad after opening. I had a bottle of the for-runner of APP (Clean shot) and it seems to have lost some of its zip after being opened for a while. I am about ready to go back to black. It is cheaper and has a lot better shelf life plus it does not leave a crud ring like 777 does.

Yes, I had heard about some issues with the old Clean Shot. AP works just fine for me though. I don't see how a powder could have a short shelf life if stored properly. I was happy with the performance of 777, but the crud ring got on my nerves. BP was not always easy to find so I went with what was available.

[jh45gun]

Yea ya got to go with what you can get. Fortunately for me the local gun shop stocks Black (goex) 777, American Pioneer, the New Pinnicle and Pyrodex so my choices are good.

[RugerFan]

Yea ya got to go with what you can get. Fortunately for me the local gun shop stocks Black (goex) 777, American Pioneer, the New Pinnicle and Pyrodex so my choices are good.

If you ever try Pinnacle, give us a report. I'm curious how it performs.

[jh45gun]

Will do I may buy a can and try it> I liked 777 but I just do not like the crud ring you get with it. So I think I am done with that either I will go with pinnicle and try it or just go back to black. Will have to ask the guy at the shop if he has gotten any good reports on it.

[RalphH]

Greetings, Gentlemen,

My .600 Gillon project is complete. Took a little while to arrive at a good load that was satisfying to me and "Thumper". I started with Elephant ffg. Full case(43 gr) only gave 450 fps velocity. Not fast enough. Changed to Goex fffg. Worked up to full case(43 gr). Gave 680 fps. Wow! By George, now we are cooking. Shot 15 rounds. Cylinder rotation got too stiff from fouling to rotate without help. Also latch screw is starting to bend, loosening frame lockup slightly.

After cleaning revolver and straightening latch screw, I ran out and bought a can of Pinnacle fffg to try. I compressed 45 gr in cartridge. Shot 20 rounds for average of 600 fps. Still has a pretty hefty recoil with lots of fire and smoke. A BIG NASTY for it's day. Latch loosened ever so slightly. I have settled on this loading, and will make a new latch screw from 4140. Should take care of that problem.

A word on my experience with Pinnacle. It is a very coarse powder. fffg looks like ffg black. Doesn't have the power of fffg black, which in my case is what I wanted. It doesn't foul like black. After 20 rounds, the cylinder turned just as free as before I started. I could look through the bore and see the rifling. It leaves a smooth waxy coating in the bore. Manufacturer claims no black powder lube is required. I believe them. Clean up is very easy using Hoppe's #9+. Don't need to worry about what soot blows into the action. I sprayed a little WD-40 into it. Blew it out with air, and lubed with Ballistol. One word on cases. I made the mistake of putting the cases in the tumbler without prior cleaning. The tumbling media stuck to the waxy substance and made a mess. Had to wash the cases in hot soapy water, then solvent, before putting them back in tumbler. Carry a jar of detergent water with you when you shoot, and drop the fired cases into it immediately. When you get home just rinse, dry, and tumble.

BTW, boolit weighs 457 grains.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Ralph_H/Gilon.jpg

[Old Ironsights]

I really agree that APP is best left to wheel guns where fouling is a real problem, and high-pressure/velocity is not desired.

IMO It's too inconsistant in (my) rifles for my taste.

[jh45gun]

I have decided that I am going back to black. it cost less, has a longer shelf life ( Indefinite) than some of the substitues, and is consistant shot to shot. As far as the smell goes when cleaning I live by my self so I guess I can put up with that and to be honest no matter what the substitutes say they all need cleaning when done because even if they are not corrosive they are hydroscopic and attract moisture so a gun shot and left with out cleaning in a humid or damp climate could still rust. I suppose in a dry climate you would not have to worry about it as fast but where I live in WI I know if I do not clean them they will rust so using black is not an problem as the gun has to be cleaned anyway. Also the local shop carries black so getting it is not an issue either. I looked at the price of Pinnicle today 23 bucks the same price as 777 and I suppose APP. I am not willing to buy another can of something and be maybe disatisfied with the results. I know what to expect out of Black Powder as I have shot enough of it in the past.

[cabezaverde]

I like the APP powder.

Once the weather breaks, I am going to try an experiment. I plan to throw 10 loads with my powder measure and calculate the average weight in grains.

Then I will pre weigh some charges and see if that helps to iron out some of the consistency issues. I only shoot my ML occasionally (hunting), so this is not a great deal of work given the few shots fired. I will also chrono the results to see if consistency improves.

My son killed 2 deer with the stuff last season, he is happy with it.

[twotoescharlie]

it also makes good fertilizer

TTC

[TooManyMisses]

I have used the 3F APP in my Blackhawk .45 Colt and it works well although it does make a gray mess around the cylinder and muzzle, a little hot water is all that it takes to clean it up. I also use it in my Knight LK 93 and have used the square sticks although with #11 caps I didn't get reliable ignition, (hangfire) with the 3F I had no trouble on -20 F days or around .32 F and damp. I don't like Pyrodex because of the smell and its corrosive hygroscopic aspect. I shoot Goex 2F with .490 balls and a prelubed patch just for a fun target load at 50 metres when I take out kids and new BP shooters . I would rather use the real stuff than Pyrodex any day but all shooters and guns have their preferences.

Just stay down wind from me at the range if your using Pyrodex.

[bushka]

first 5 shots out of my 38/40 bisley cut 2"@25yd w/the stuff,but after that was shotgun pattern.smells good though.

[alleyyooper]

Back in the 90's I read about some of these new black powder subs being the next best thing to honey on toast. Soon after that I bought my first inline a Remington 700 54cal. Along with the new inline I brought home a bottle of clean shot. I really like the stuff in the inline and bought a couple more bottles while working up loads. My brother bought it in pellet form for his T/C Black Diamond, :-D was fun to watch the smoking pettets arc out to the target. Those pellets brought the law suit that made the company fold but come alive again as AAP. I bought some for the 54 couldn't get any type of groups with any charge or projectile. I sat the stuff on a shelf with the lid tight. I bought T 7 to try and was pleased with it.
Recently I bought a used 50cal 700, Worked up a load useing T7, 80gr T7, 230gr HP XTP in a green MMP sabot.
Just put a new scope on it and adjusted the trigger so decided to get some range time.I decided that I am part scott and can not see pouring that AAP out or just plain wasting it so I threw it into the shooting box.
After getting the scope set I decided to see what I could do with that at least 5 year old AAP stuff.
Well low and behold it was clumped a bit but a couple of pokes with the short starter got it loose again.
At 100gr. I got as good 50 yard groups as I do with 80gr. T7. At the same cost T7 is a better value.
The results swabing ever other shot.
http://usera.imagecave.com/alleyyooper/HUNTINGSHOOTING/Doublepack.jpg
http://usera.imagecave.com/alleyyooper/HUNTINGSHOOTING/targetfromfridayMarch28th2008.jpg

Goex is not sold in this area. It is a two hour drive to the nearest outlet. With hasmat fees and fuel cost T7 bought on spring close out for $11.00 a pound is the best value for me.

:mrgreen: Al

[northmn]

I have tried Pyrodex and 777 but not Pioneer as I have been soured on the use of substitue powders in the more traditional BP rifles. While Pioneer is said to be usable in flintlocks I have notice that Shocky, its promoter, uses 209 type ML's for his hunting. The biggest problem I have had is that of ignition with any of the stuff. I though I would try to use up the pyrodex in my 50 ML and tried it at 100 yards with poor results (hardly would stay on the paper) The equivalent measure of BP shot about 2 - 3 inches with iron sights. 777 and the better grade of pyrodex work in BP cartridge guns great. May use the stuff up in my BP cartridge shotgun loads.

Mnshooter

[ridurall]

I've got a 2 or 3 year old bottle of APP and it shoots great in my 45/70 with 522 gr Postel bullet. You do have to keep it in a tight lid container. Don't use a flask. It is very hydroscopic and will draw moisture out of the air. It's one of the cleanest burning powders I've used. You don't ever have to stop shooting to clean because of fouling. You don't want a lub disk to contact the powder or it will effect the performance. You don't need the lub disk anyway. I am still shooting lubed Lyman 457132 bullets that have been sized and lubed. I have yet to shoot the black powder in my Shiloh Sharps but one of these days I'm going to give it a try.