Safe to use loading data for J-boolits for cast boolits?

[Jayhem]

So I am loading for both .40 S&W and .380 ACP using Hodgdon TiteGroup powder. I am having trouble finding published load data for these calibers using cast boolits and this powder, everything I've found has been for jacketed boolits.

Is it safe to use the starting loads published for J-boolits substituting for equal grain weight cast boolits?

[thx997303]

Back off the start loads 10% and stop going higher if you see pressure signs.

This is how I've been told.

[Jayhem]

Back off the start loads 10% and stop going higher if you see pressure signs.

This is how I've been told.

That is kinda what I was thinking...just needed confirmation. I'm loading target loads so all I need is a load that will cycle in my autos and not foul the gun.

[Rocky Raab]

The "book" answer (or the lawyer one) would be, "No." But the true answer is "Probably."

Cast bullets generally but not always have lower friction levels than jacketed bullets. That can be offset or outweighed by being larger in diameter, however.

You should be safe most of the time if you begin at Start levels. With powders like these, you can almost certainly cut even those modest charges by a bit. (That is NOT true with certain rifle powders, please note.) You are on your own in any event, even with the exact components listed.

[Jayhem]

I am resizing my boolits to .001 over bore slug size. I would think that sizing would help prevent a pressure spike in the event that a few boolits are largely oversized but still fit the case.

Are there any negatives to starting below recommended start grains with semi-auto handguns? If the recoil is enough to allow the gun to cycle is that sign that all is well with ultra light loads?

[DanM]

I have never found a book load that actually made it's published velocity, so, if you don't have a chrono, you should get one. Having said that, you should be OK just loading for good function, and stopping there. Those soft loads may get boring after a while. Then you need a chrono. Also, they will hit different than your hotter factory defense loads and may not shoot right to your fixed sights. BTW, that TiteGroup is good stuff in a lot of pistol carts.

EDIT; If you want to stay with soft loads, you might look into reduced power recoil springs if available for your pistols.

[runfiverun]

with titegroup once i find a load i am happy with it usually is below max,and works nicely with both j-words and cast for instance. 5 grs in the 45 acp works well with 200 and 230 gr j and cast. 4 in the 9mm with 215's and 124's both ways same charge in the 38 with 125's and 158's.
you just have to stay away from the heavier boolits for the case design and not push the envelope with titegroup.

[Jayhem]

with titegroup once i find a load i am happy with it usually is below max,and works nicely with both j-words and cast for instance. 5 grs in the 45 acp works well with 200 and 230 gr j and cast. 4 in the 9mm with 215's and 124's both ways same charge in the 38 with 125's and 158's.
you just have to stay away from the heavier boolits for the case design and not push the envelope with titegroup.

Thanks! Yea TG seems like a pretty quick burning powder and a small increase in charge weight means large pressure increase. I'll be staying a good 10% below max charges.

[Marlin Junky]

Don't forget obturation can significantly increase pressure if you use a boolit too soft for the pressure generated. This situation is encountered more often in rifles but don't take BHN vs. pressure for granted in any gun. With a "too-soft-for-the-application" boolit, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference if it's only .001" over groove diameter because the thrust from behind is going to force it into the barrel walls; i.e., the blockage (boolit) expands in all directions.

MJ

[OLPDon]

I have quite a few reloading manuels both for Js and cast and comparing loads yrs back in wt. & components 10% to 11% seems to be the numbers, there are exceptions dont recall what the exception were as long as its Js to Cast. Lead is more forgiving with pressure.
Don

[45-70 Chevroner]

Jayhem: I read in one of my Lyman reloading manuals some years back, the manual is a spiral bound edition not sure of the #. It said you can use any Jboolit load with cast boolits as long as they are the same weight and not sized more than .002 over bore diameter. I have extrapolated this load process many times and it works very well. A cast boolit using Jboolits loads will never reach the preassures of a Jboolit as the copper jacket is about 10 times harder than a lead bullet. You can definitely raise pressures to dangerous levels with cast bullets by going beyond loading perameters. And I guess that would be a given. I would not worry about backing off 10% for starting loads as pressures will be well under Jboolit loads.

[HORNET]

Assuming that you're using a cast design that is similar enough that you don't significantly change the seating depth in those short cases, you should be fine. The case capacity reduction would be much more of a factor than the material, especially with the faster powders.

[Jayhem]

^ yea, I'm using a TC cast boolit of 175 grains in the .40 as opposed to the standard 180 grain TC's that most J-target loads come with. I'm going to keep the OAL as close to max as I can.

[fredj338]

You can use starting jacketed data for lead bullets of sim. profile & wt. TG would be my last choice for use in any high pressure round like the 40. Stay well off max. Any bullet setback w/ TG running near the top can be catastrophic.

[Jayhem]

You can use starting jacketed data for lead bullets of sim. profile & wt. TG would be my last choice for use in any high pressure round like the 40. Stay well off max. Any bullet setback w/ TG running near the top can be catastrophic.

I went with TG because it seems suited to running light loads and conserving powder. I'm planning to load at or just below starting loads. This is just for plinking/paper punching.

[Uncle R.]

I believe it was Veral who said that cast will always give lower pressure than jacketed. I ain't gonna swear that they always will - but the trend is certainly in that direction. For loads in the "normal" range of bullet weights and powders I substitute cast for jacketed all the time and rarely have trouble. If there IS trouble it's likely to be pressure too low resulting in incomplete powder burn or large velocity swings. The answer to that would be a faster powder.
<
If you're skating right on the edge of safe loads with an extremely fast (or slow) powder for the cartridge in question then more caution is indicated - and a change of powder to one closer to the middle of the speed ranges listed in your data for that cartridge might be a good idea.
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Uncle R.

[Jayhem]

I believe it was Veral who said that cast will always give lower pressure than jacketed. I ain't gonna swear that they always will - but the trend is certainly in that direction. For loads in the "normal" range of bullet weights and powders I substitute cast for jacketed all the time and rarely have trouble. If there IS trouble it's likely to be pressure too low resulting in incomplete powder burn or large velocity swings. The answer to that would be a faster powder.
<
If you're skating right on the edge of safe loads with an extremely fast (or slow) powder for the cartridge in question then more caution is indicated - and a change of powder to one closer to the middle of the speed ranges listed in your data for that cartridge might be a good idea.
<
Uncle R.

So it sounds like you agree with me that since I'm aiming for lite target loads of around starting grains...a faster burning powder is better because it will keep my pressure up to help the gun cycle correctly with the lower velocity rounds. Is this assumption reasonable?

[sargenv]

While a lot of people reccomend against fast burners in general for loading lead, most USPSA action shooters tend to load those fast powders because at similar velocities, they feel softer than the corresponding slower powders. Slow is relative though.. Titegroup, Clays, 700x are all used.. usually loaded long for their 1911 platform handguns. I personally don't like double based propellants and choose to use Solo 1000 for all my competition ammo.. It's a little bit slower than the above, but not as slow as something like Unique which a lot of people use with good results.. as usual, YMMV.

[Uncle R.]

I have no experience with Titegroup and cast boolits in the .40 but it's fast enough (and 40s in general are quirky enough) that I'd be a leetle nervous about using it. I'd prefer a powder and charge that filled the case. If I was gonna use TG I'd start low - work up VERY carefully - and check not only for signs of high pressure but for bullets being driven deeper under recoil too. See Fredj338s comments about boolit setback in post above.

[Jayhem]

After some more research I'm starting to regret buying TG powder for my .40 cal. Would TG powder be more suited to .45 ACP? If so I can use it for that and buy a can of Unique, AC #5 or perhaps Clays for the .40.

Edit: I'm also about to start loading cast boolit target rounds in .380 for my backup gun to do more shooting with it (Ruger LCP). Perhaps TG would work well with it also.

[Jim]

I've done a lot of experimenting with stuff like this and, oddly enough, I've found that my best results show up in the load window published by people that have been working on establishing this data for years. Go figure.

[Jayhem]

I have half a can of WSF. Would it be a better powder for .40 S&W with 180 grain TC lead boolits?

[mpmarty]

40 S&W is a very picky character to play around with. I'd find some published and well tested data and follow the directions exactly. I don't know what's wrong with the 40s but I quit playing with them in favor of the 10mm which is a very flexible round as opposed to its bastard child the 40 S&W.