anyone shoot an underhammer ?

[buckweet]

i thinks ? i've found true love....
was just looking around, found a site, pacific rifle co.
.62 or .72 caliber underhammer . 1/104 twist.
simplicity in itselfe.
whoever thoughts that up, was a very smart man.
leftys and rightys,
two moving parts, trigger guard is the hammer spring,
super slow twist for very large caliber, even use as shotgun..
direct drive transmission, like an inline. no curves from the nipple.fires straight into barrel.
the african model even has ''dual'' musket cap's firing system.



amazing.

i want one.

please send money to buckweets , underhammer fund.

yep. i gotta try one of these. wow. 62 caliber,

weet

[Rio Grande]

http://www.pacificrifle.com/

Wonderful rifles, kind of pricey though.
I've always admired the "Hopkins and Allen" designs Numrich Arms sold, wish i could find a 'sleeper' in a pawn shop.

Here is another underhammer site...
http://underhammers.blogspot.com/2007/03/underhammer-history-briefly.html

[jhrosier]

... I've always admired the "Hopkins and Allen" designs Numrich Arms sold,

I had one and let it slip through my fingers.
I've regretted that mistake many times.
The underhammer is such a simple and elegant design.
It seems like the makers of the modern inline muzzleloaders could have taken a lesson from the underhammer.

Jack

[Boz330]

i thinks ? i've found true love....
was just looking around, found a site, pacific rifle co.
.62 or .72 caliber underhammer . 1/104 twist.
simplicity in itselfe.
whoever thoughts that up, was a very smart man.
leftys and rightys,
two moving parts, trigger guard is the hammer spring,
super slow twist for very large caliber, even use as shotgun..
direct drive transmission, like an inline. no curves from the nipple.fires straight into barrel.
the african model even has ''dual'' musket cap's firing system.



amazing.

i want one.



please send money to buckweets , underhammer fund.

yep. i gotta try one of these. wow. 62 caliber,

weet


I have one and love it, carries nice and shoots the same way. The KISS principle at it's best.
I have too much of a problem funding my own projects so can't help you there. I've had a love affair with a Trade gun in 62 cal for awhile now that has been taking a back seat to putting food on the table and keeping the roof where it belongs.

Bob

[buckweet]

I have one and love it, carries nice and shoots the same way. The KISS principle at it's best.
I have too much of a problem funding my own projects so can't help you there. I've had a love affair with a Trade gun in 62 cal for awhile now that has been taking a back seat to putting food on the table and keeping the roof where it belongs.

Bob





bob. i have a lyman trade rifle, kinda , looking around find a replacement 62 barrel for it ?
but my hearts with one of these underhammers.
im giving this some thoughts, i may sell off a few guns that i dont shoot anymore.
we'll see . like you seems like everything else gets in the way.ha.

[buckweet]

I had one and let it slip through my fingers.
I've regretted that mistake many times.
The underhammer is such a simple and elegant design.
It seems like the makers of the modern inline muzzleloaders could have taken a lesson from the underhammer.

Jack


elegant ? now that just ''right''

i agree with you. its so simple. it's classy.

[John Taylor]

Roger Renner was founder of Pacific Rifle and sold out when he retired. He is still building under hammers and started the under hammer blog. We have talked over ideas from time to time, he has lots of knowledge. Under hammers are not hard to make and there are many different designs. They date back to about 1750 with the early ones being flint. There is a record of an order for 1000 under hammers for Texas in the 1830s to be traded for land. No record if the order was filled.
I enjoy making under hammers as time permits. Have shot them in competition and done OK. My target rifle is a 62 because at some muzzle loading matches you need to Knock down something. The last one I made for myself was a little 32 caliber using an old pump shaft for the frame and parts from a H&A.
You can probably find parts here http://bluegrouseblackpowder.webexone.com/default.asp?link=
My little 32.http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/johnptaylor/brassUHafterblue.jpg

[buckweet]

http://www.pacificrifle.com/

Wonderful rifles, kind of pricey though.
I've always admired the "Hopkins and Allen" designs Numrich Arms sold, wish i could find a 'sleeper' in a pawn shop.

Here is another underhammer site...
http://underhammers.blogspot.com/2007/03/underhammer-history-briefly.html




thanks for the link !!

me too...i'll be looking in a few pawn shops. never know ?

[buckweet]

Roger Renner was founder of Pacific Rifle and sold out when he retired. He is still building under hammers and started the under hammer blog. We have talked over ideas from time to time, he has lots of knowledge. Under hammers are not hard to make and there are many different designs. They date back to about 1750 with the early ones being flint. There is a record of an order for 1000 under hammers for Texas in the 1830s to be traded for land. No record if the order was filled.
I enjoy making under hammers as time permits. Have shot them in competition and done OK. My target rifle is a 62 because at some muzzle loading matches you need to Knock down something. The last one I made for myself was a little 32 caliber using an old pump shaft for the frame and parts from a H&A.
You can probably find parts here http://bluegrouseblackpowder.webexone.com/default.asp?link=
My little 32.http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/johnptaylor/brassUHafterblue.jpg




now thats just ''sweet'' and thanks for the picture, really shows the details of how simple the trigger group is. that is one awsome little rifle. thanks alot, now i want a small caliber too.ha.
dont know if i could build one. im not that ''handy'' i'ed love to try, but i'ed better just get one 1st. and study it.
thank you for the link.
my interest level of these underhammers just went off the scale.

[Hanshi]

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt74/hanshi_photo/PICT0387.jpg

I've had this H&A .45 Heritage model for well over 4 decades and it has taken everything from squirrel to deer. Accuracy is astounding and the action is as simple as you can get. It is not for sale.

[John Taylor]

picture of an early flinter.
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/johnptaylor/flintlockunderhammer.jpg

You can have lots of fun making yours look different. The hammer for one that's not finished yet.
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/johnptaylor/UHdogshead.jpg

[Boz330]

John,
Do you know if there were any original style under hammers used in long range 1800s style competition? By LR I mean 800 to 1000yd. There was a nice one on one of the sites you recommended but I'm not sure whether that was a copy of some sort of original.
I have 2 buddies that are trying to talk me into that sort of shooting and right now a Gibbs is out of the question. I thought that a Green Mountain 45-70 barrel on an under hammer action might be the ticket if it would pass muster for originality.

Bob

[John Taylor]

There is a drawing of a rifle made by A. O. Nieder with a scope mounted on it in the Underhammer Guns book by Herschel C. Logan. I have not researched enough to find anything about long range shooting. I'm sure under hammers were used in all kinds of target shooting. Some of the drawings show rifles that were intended for target shooting only.
Using a 45-70 barrel for your rifle will only work if you come up with a proper bullet that can be loaded from the muzzle. The bullet would need to be under .450" to get it down the bore or a piece of the barrel could be made into a bullet sizer and engrave the rifling. I have done the latter several times with good luck. Pope use to load his rifles from the muzzle with paper patch and he set some records for accuracy. Using bullets will cause higher pressure than a round ball and with longer distance it will require more powder so a good nipple is a must. Muzzle loaders using high pressures can cause the nipple to burn out quicker. One of the things I learned right off about under hammers is you don't have your arm or hand close to the hammer with a worn out nipple. It was years before the black specks in my arm went away.
There were a lot of different designs in the early 1800s. Most were hand made so it would be hard to find two that looked the same You might be able to find a book at the library with pictures to help you out. The book is not cheep http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0007DQFWM/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&qid=1261949200&sr=8-2&condition=used

[Boz330]

Two of my closest friends shot on the US long range team this year at Camp Butner so I am somewhat familiar with the problems. A platinum lined nipple is a must. The Gibbs rifles are for all practical purposes a 45-70 barrel. The boolit is 540gr or so paper patched to .450 and it depends on obturation to slug up into the rifling. The pressures are intense and I have heard of standard nipples burning out in as few as 20 rounds.
In the overall scheme of things I would probably be better off biting the bullet and ordering a Gibbs. I love the under hammers though. OH he!! I just need to fess up, I love em all, I'm a gunoholic. BTW you do some outstanding work.

Bob

[buckweet]

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt74/hanshi_photo/PICT0387.jpg

I've had this H&A .45 Heritage model for well over 4 decades and it has taken everything from squirrel to deer. Accuracy is astounding and the action is as simple as you can get. It is not for sale.




now THATS just astounding !!!

nice stick ya gots there !

[bob208]

i have 3 h&a's. the one i have shot in offhand matches for the last20 years. it has a 32" long 1 1/16 part round barrel in .45. i use 45 gr 3f with a patch round ball. i was knocking down bowling pins at 100 yards with that rifle with that load.

[buckweet]

i have 3 h&a's. the one i have shot in offhand matches for the last20 years. it has a 32" long 1 1/16 part round barrel in .45. i use 45 gr 3f with a patch round ball. i was knocking down bowling pins at 100 yards with that rifle with that load.




now thats some accurate shooting.

cain't hardly wait to get one.

[Multigunner]

I've only shot an underhammer once. It was a large bore (probably .58) long range match rifle belonging to a friend of my cousin.

This particular rifle loaded using a false muzzle and a device that locked onto the muzzle with levers on either side, when you pumped the levers up and down, at the same time of course, they advanced a brass ramrod smoothly to force the slug down the bore.

The bullet was a paper patched 1,000 grain swaged duplex slug, the cylindrical part of the bullet was of softer lead than the nose, the nose had to be hard otherwise the acceleration of the 300 grain powder charge would deform the bullet nose.

I shot a locust wood fence post with it, aiming at a knothole. Whether I hit the knothole or not I'll never know because most of the post was blown into toothpicks and splinters.

I would not mind having a under hammer buggy rifle in .32 or .36.
Probably a .357 bore would be best, since precast .38 bullets are usually very cheap around here.
I like the creeping ramrod attachment, but rather than a false muzzle I'd counter bore the muzzle to hold the bullet while being tapped into the rifling.

[Cactus Farmer]

I bought an H&A buggy rifle years ago in 45 cal with a 15/16 barrel. Couldn't get it to shoot with .440s or .445s. I finallly had my smith at the time fit a Nurmrich 45 cal in 13/16s. He made the thimbles from brass pipe and the forend is held on with the said thimbles. Shoots like a laser. Shot some prairedogs at 100+ yards with 70 grns of 3F. The Nurmrich barrel is 32 inches and the origional is 20 inches.
It's still one of my faverites for small game. I tried the lighter REAL Lee bullet but it wouldn't shoot bullets well. My CVA 45 shoots the REALs great so deer are hunted with the CVA. If I find a CVA barrel I'll rebarrel the UH with a bullet tube and shoot it for a meat gun. UHs are just too simple and the fire goes right into the powder.....only inlines are better if they actually are. Three moving parts is a pretty simple system in my eyes......

[jhrosier]

I was fascinated by the H&A buggy rifle when I was a teen.
Never could come up with the scratch and life moved on.
I've slowed down to the point where I could properly appreciate one nowadays.
Has anyone seen the H&A parts for sale anywhere?

Jack

[Charlie Sometimes]

I bought an H&A buggy rifle years ago in 45 cal with a 15/16 barrel. Couldn't get it to shoot with .440s or .445s. I finallly had my smith at the time fit a Nurmrich 45 cal in 13/16s. He made the thimbles from brass pipe and the forend is held on with the said thimbles. Shoots like a laser. Shot some prairedogs at 100+ yards with 70 grns of 3F. The Nurmrich barrel is 32 inches and the origional is 20 inches.
It's still one of my faverites for small game. I tried the lighter REAL Lee bullet but it wouldn't shoot bullets well. My CVA 45 shoots the REALs great so deer are hunted with the CVA. If I find a CVA barrel I'll rebarrel the UH with a bullet tube and shoot it for a meat gun. UHs are just too simple and the fire goes right into the powder.....only inlines are better if they actually are. Three moving parts is a pretty simple system in my eyes......

They were designed for 433 RB. I had one back in the late 70's that I eventually shot the riflings out of it, and then changed the barrel to a Numrich replacement. Mine was the Heritage Model also. Won a lot of money at shooting matches with it!
The only things I disliked about it was the thin forearms that they pinned on them, and the brass fixtures. An iron butt plate would have better suited that rifle, and no patch box, or brass for half a trigger guard either.

Had a chance to get a brand new 58 caliber Buggy Rifle once, and passed it up- duh!

I'll get another someday......

[Cactus Farmer]

Charlie, the .440s were loose with pillow ticking patching. A .433 would fall to the bottom. My work with .445s improved it some. I didn't get too involved with the short tube......i wanted the 32 incher and it shoots very well with the .440s. What does your Nurmrich barrel shoot?

[Charlie Sometimes]

DID shoot- like a dummy I traded it off, and have regreted it ever since.

The patched 433 RB was for the original barrel.
I used a heavier patch material back then (015)- that would be 448 in a 44 barrel (which is what I think it was).
The replacement shot the 440 better- the 445 was too tight.
The replacement barrel had a 1:66 twist, and would have had slightly deeper rifling as an RB barrel.
Conicals, minnies, etc. work better in shallow groove rifling, and 1:48 twists or faster from my experience.

I never overpowered the charge in any of my muzzleloaders either- if it was a 45, I shot 45 gr. FFFg Goex, and would double that for a maxi or conical type (50 caliber and above FFg). Being direct flame into the charge, I had blow back around the nipple and fowling on that little brass cup around it. The more the charge the more that needed cleaning (and the hammer cup).

[buckweet]

DID shoot- like a dummy I traded it off, and have regreted it ever since.

The patched 433 RB was for the original barrel.
I used a heavier patch material back then (015)- that would be 448 in a 44 barrel (which is what I think it was).
The replacement shot the 440 better- the 445 was too tight.
The replacement barrel had a 1:66 twist, and would have had slightly deeper rifling as an RB barrel.
Conicals, minnies, etc. work better in shallow groove rifling, and 1:48 twists or faster from my experience.

I never overpowered the charge in any of my muzzleloaders either- if it was a 45, I shot 45 gr. FFFg Goex, and would double that for a maxi or conical type (50 caliber and above FFg). Being direct flame into the charge, I had blow back around the nipple and fowling on that little brass cup around it. The more the charge the more that needed cleaning (and the hammer cup).



hummm ? i was thinking ? use FFg for rifles... so FFFg works in a .45 rifle ?

[jhrosier]

.... so FFFg works in a .45 rifle ?

I've used FFFg in many rifles.
I use 5/7 x the FFg charge to get nearly identical velocities but much cleaner burning because the FFFg burns at higher pressures.
As with any loading data, work up to this, watching for pressure signs, patch condition, and accuracy.

Jack

[John Taylor]

One of the old rules, 3F under 50 cal. 2F 50cal. and over. Shot guns and real big bores use 1F. I found out years later that 2F worked better in my Ruger old army. I'm not sure if there is more pressure with 3F but it does burn faster. Many years ago we were playing with a mortar shooting a 4 pound projectile and it went twice as far when we switched from 3F to 2F. This would indicate a higher pressure with 2F, or that it keeps the pressure for a longer time.

[buckweet]

thanks guys.. thats good information to know.

[Charlie Sometimes]

One of the old rules, 3F under 50 cal. 2F 50cal. and over. Shot guns and real big bores use 1F. I found out years later that 2F worked better in my Ruger old army. I'm not sure if there is more pressure with 3F but it does burn faster.

Agreed, and more than grains than caliber designation begins to waste powder too.
Faster burn means more pressure sooner.
There is only so much that can be burned before the ball exits the barrel, and pressure is not building, therefore wasted.

I used FFg in my ROA's at one time as well.
FFg works well in 45 Colt BP cartridge loads too.

[buckweet]

Agreed, and more than grains than caliber designation begins to waste powder too.
Faster burn means more pressure sooner.
There is only so much that can be burned before the ball exits the barrel, and pressure is not building, therefore wasted.

I used FFg in my ROA's at one time as well.
FFg works well in 45 Colt BP cartridge loads too.




ROA's ..... [sheesh]

come on guys, !!!!:confused:!!!! quit with the code's !!!!

speeky englieesh !!!

[Charlie Sometimes]

Ruger Old Army- Ruger fans know what it means, sorry.

Don't ask me what FFFFg, etc. stands for! :lol:

[buckweet]

Ruger Old Army- Ruger fans know what it means, sorry.

Don't ask me what FFFFg, etc. stands for! :lol:





:castmine::violin:[smilie=w:[smilie=w::confused::mrgreen:



lol !! thats ok...i dont either....:mrgreen:

[FL-Flinter]

John is right about powder .... all that 2F / 3F **** according to bore diameter .... forget it! I had many sub-.54 calibers guns run far better and cleaner in 2F and a little .36 that worked wonders with 1F. Same hold true when you get into BPCR loads in that a compressed load of 3F may not give anywhere near the performance obtained with a comparible compressed load of 1F.

[twotoescharlie]

built a .62 rifled last year from a kit, haven't really worked up a load for it yet. also have an old numrich arms .36 cal . and a blue grouse .50 cal. buggy rifle. blue grouse is no more, I got the last buggy rifle kit he had in stock.

TTC

[357maximum]

I got my first underhammer kill this past fall.


http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=67844



Green mountain .50 RB barrel on a H&A type frame. This rifle prefers 95Gr of Wano Shuetzen 3F.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/bowunderhammer051.jpg

[pietro]

I'm partial to these .72 cal (12 bore) Pacific Zypher underhammers, myself.

http://www.pacificrifle.com/images/spread.jpeg

BTW:

1825, Europe
DEVELOPMENT OF BLACK POWDER GRANULATIONS FOR SPECIFIC PURPOSES

With more accurate testing methods, it was discovered that different granulations of corned powder were appropriate to different applications.
This ultimated in today's grading system using the letters "F" and "g".
The little "g" stands for Granulation, while the F stands for the size of screen mesh the granule will pass through.

The smallest granulation commonly available is FFFFg (spoken: "4F"). It is used principally in the priming pan of flintlocks, but has some application in strong but small chambered revolvers of .22 to .32 caliber.

FFFg ("3F") is usually recommended for muzzleloading rifles of .50 caliber or less.

FFg is used in larger rifles, whether cartridge loaded or not. It also performs well in target class loads in cartridge pistols when the smaller internal dimensioned modern cartridge case is used.

Fg is the largest granulation, and is used principally in cannons, though it is applicable to large bore (10 gauge and up) shotguns and double rifles of 8, 6, and 4 bore.

Cannon powder was commonly of an even larger granulation.
Somewhat later, cannon powder was pressed into prisms, or sized to specifically fit the varying bores.
Eventually "Brown" powder was standardized for in cannons until the end of 1800's. The brown color arose from incorporating charcoal that was only partially carbonized.

.

[buckweet]

One of the old rules, 3F under 50 cal. 2F 50cal. and over. Shot guns and real big bores use 1F. I found out years later that 2F worked better in my Ruger old army. I'm not sure if there is more pressure with 3F but it does burn faster. Many years ago we were playing with a mortar shooting a 4 pound projectile and it went twice as far when we switched from 3F to 2F. This would indicate a higher pressure with 2F, or that it keeps the pressure for a longer time.

hi john....

so ''if'' im understanding this right ?

higher pressure from 2f, ? burns longer. would work better in a long barrel ?

keeps pressure up longer, more velocity in a long barrel.

thanks.

[buckweet]

I got my first underhammer kill this past fall.


http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=67844



Green mountain .50 RB barrel on a H&A type frame. This rifle prefers 95Gr of Wano Shuetzen 3F.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/bowunderhammer051.jpg


say ! thats one sweet picture, nothing like a happy man, dead deer, and a underhammer !.

and then you guys wanna know why my interest is off the scale.ha.

i cannot wait to build my own.

[John Taylor]

Not sure on round balls but maxis or other bullets should get higher velocity with 2F. I do not have a chronograph so it is mostly theory. Maybe the best way to tell would be to work up a load for both powders and then see which one shoot the flattest, or buy a chronograph. When I went to 2F on the old army it got real accurate compared to what it was doing with 3F. Was able to knock down all the chickens at 50 yards and the bear at 200 yards. I hit the turkey but it didn't go down.
One of the old stories says something about shooting over snow to see if all the powder is being burned. Another reason some of the old rifles had 40"+ barrels, to make sure all the powder was used.
Many years ago I built a 54 for a customer. It had a 42" barrel with 1 in 24" twist and was designed to shoot a custom bullet around 500 grains. The customer would not tell me what powder charge he was using but they were putting every shot on a paper plate at 2 hundred yards. Someone mentioned 200 grains but I could not get them to talk about it because it was way more than what I recommended. The rifle was built off an H&R 10 gauge action using 209 primers.
As with any gun, loads should be worked up. Best to go for accuracy over power. All the power in the world won't do any good if you miss. Sometimes muzzle loading hunters should take on some of the skills of a bow hunter and not chase a wounded animal so quick. An animal that lays down, feeling safe that it is not persuade, will not be able to get up and run off. To many times someone will run after a deer they just shot and chase it till they can't move anymore and the deer is never found.

[357maximum]

YOU NEED ONE OF THESE:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/underhammerpistol001.jpg


Just trying to help a feller out.[smilie=1:

50 CALIBER RoundBall launcher...the pistol is quite lively then the hammer hits home....big smoke...big ball....big fun.


I have a .32 caliber barrel being made for it right now from an old 8mm barrel...for range plinking.


Next year I am going to turn a doe into meat with the .50 barrel.

[buckweet]

YOU NEED ONE OF THESE:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/underhammerpistol001.jpg


Just trying to help a feller out.[smilie=1:

50 CALIBER RoundBall launcher...the pistol is quite lively then the hammer hits home....big smoke...big ball....big fun.


I have a .32 caliber barrel being made for it right now from an old 8mm barrel...for range plinking.


Next year I am going to turn a doe into meat with the .50 barrel.







''this is the worlds most powerfull pistol, a .50 caliber BP. it will blow your head plum off.''


who said that ?


[smilie=1:

[buckweet]

.357MAX.


your not helping. :)



[nice!]

[357maximum]

.357MA.


your not helping. :)



[nice!]




INSERT EVIL LAUGH HERE....:grin::wink:[smilie=1:

[FL-Flinter]

357 Max,
You call that a pistol? It's a mere .50cal peashooter and don't even have a ram rod! Pistols around here start at .54 for the ladies and go on up from there. :kidding: [smilie=s:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/markkw/Pistol/rightfullwalnut2.jpg

[357maximum]

Mark

Just place me with the ladies then. I will even wear a pink shirt if it makes you feel better:veryconfu. My ancestors killed all the mastadon here in Michigan so I guess the 50 will do right nicely. [smilie=w:

[FL-Flinter]

The difference between granulations of powder is the time ramp of the pressure curve. The smaller the granulations, the faster the powder burns, the shorter the time ramp up to peak pressure. The larger the granulation, the slower the burn, the longer the time ramp up to peak pressure. It's the same as going from say the very fast burning Bullseye to the much slower burning Blue Dot. According to the pressure data I've seen, using the same volume of 3F as 2F under the same projo in the same gun will produce higher peak pressure.

Faster burning black powder can often cause conditions that the gun does not like. The faster pressure rise of 3F may results in more/less initial blowby which would give the appearance of not producing the same velocity. The speed of the pressure rise can cause jerky movement of the projo until the pressure reaches a certain level. Then there are the resultant vibration and annular pressure wave issues to consider as well. The annular pressure waves produced by 3F can themselves be enough to wreck accuracy based simply on how the particular barrel responds to them. The faster pressure rise can also cause excessive obturation of the projo resulting in poor performance by a projo that's deformed to some extent.

Just keep in mind that while 2F & 1F will normally work quite well in the majority of gun no matter what the bore diameter, you're going to come across those individual guns with bigger bores that will not shoot anything but 3F. Load building and experimentation is a must! Besides, it's more excuses to go burn powder!

[357maximum]

I should have this in my hands by mid-week.....I can hardly wait[smilie=w:

Original and brand new never fired H&A Numerich 45 cal boot pistol.[smilie=w:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/Gun002.jpg

[FL-Flinter]

Mark

Just place me with the ladies then. I will even wear a pink shirt if it makes you feel better:veryconfu. My ancestors killed all the mastadon here in Michigan so I guess the 50 will do right nicely. [smilie=w:


C'mon man, work with me here, bigger bore = bigger parts = easier for my nerve damaged, arthritis & carpal tunnel paws to work with. :mrgreen:

Go back to that mastadon thing and I'll be pushing you to buy a handgonne or one of my forged spears and if you real feel froggy, I'll be happy to hook you up with a good hickory war club ... BTW, I do keep those toys hidden from my wife, she could get with her one good hand! :lol:

I've got no grounds to talk, I've put down deer with the .45 just as easily as with the .62 but when my .62 barked, there was no mistake as to who was going to be filling out a tag. [smilie=w:

[357maximum]

I would be strung up if I truly stated how small a projectile and how little FPS I KNOW it takes to kill a deer.

Them puppies are not kevlar coated nor are they constructed of titanium.

If it were legal and/or I could afford to buy a pen raised deer I would make a very upsetting (to the mag only crowd) youtube stunt video involving a slingshot and a .40 RB.


I was and always will be a bowhunter...regardless of the tool I have in my hand.

Deer are simply not that hard to kill. PERIOD..........................

[buckweet]

ummmm..... .22LR anyone ?


yep, they call us ''headhunters''


but i'ed rather have a .62 :)

[357maximum]

ummmm..... .22LR anyone ?


yep, they call us ''headhunters''


but i'ed rather have a .62 :)

I would rather have some built in margin of error myself. Thats why I carry the great big 50:twisted: and no I was not talking about shooting them in the head with a 22. I aim for the lungs with whatever I am using.

I once (ok maybe a few times) have seen a full grown whitetail take a slow small antique caliber slug to the lungs. They have always done a tippy toe walk for a few yards then simply fell over. Do I want everyone in the world to use such a caliber for deer...absolutely not.

If a person cannot kill a deer with a belted mag or several ounces of lead...they definately should not be carrying something with the ballistics of a 22LR/22WMR. I am pretty sure that is why most states have outlawed such small caliber practices.....it is not a matter of function it is a matter of modern day hunters thinking they can graze their tail with a 300superdooperearsplittenloudenboomer at 3/8 of a mile and still make meat.

[buckweet]

357 Max,
You call that a pistol? It's a mere .50cal peashooter and don't even have a ram rod! Pistols around here start at .54 for the ladies and go on up from there. :kidding: [smilie=s:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/markkw/Pistol/rightfullwalnut2.jpg


hahahahaahah..... :)


i'ed like to have a .62 pistol....

[buckweet]

I would rather have some built in margin of error myself. Thats why I carry the great big 50:twisted: and no I was not talking about shooting them in the head with a 22. I aim for the lungs with whatever I am using.

I once (ok maybe a few times) have seen a full grown whitetail take a slow small antique caliber slug to the lungs. They have always done a tippy toe walk for a few yards then simply fell over. Do I want everyone in the world to use such a caliber for deer...absolutely not.

If a person cannot kill a deer with a belted mag or several ounces of lead...they definately should not be carrying something with the ballistics of a 22LR/22WMR. I am pretty sure that is why most states have outlawed such small caliber practices.....it is not a matter of function it is a matter of modern day hunters thinking they can graze their tail with a 300superdooperearsplittenloudenboomer at 3/8 of a mile and still make meat.




superdooperearsplittenloudenboomer ?


hahahahahaahahaha...

good point, but .. i've killed many a deer with the lowly .22LR,

[its all i had]

i'ed not hunt with a .22 anymore, but i know it can be done. ''get close''

about like within bow range,

i'ed also say ? almost all the deer i've ever killed in my life, has been less than 40 yards.

alot of them , within 20 yards.

the last deer i shot with a muzzle loader was within 30 yards, with pop's old lyman. .50... BOOM. dead/done/ never made a step.

[smilie=s:

[John Taylor]

This little pee shooter was made several years back and donated as a prize at a rendezvous. It is 36 caliber and seems to shoot great. I didn't have a picture of it till the winner broke the main spring and sent it back for repair a few years ago.http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/johnptaylor/UNDERHAMMER36CALSMALL2.jpg

I think I have a couple 72 cal pistol barrels in the shop, need to track them down.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Yea, the F and g powder description was what I was thinking.

Although, here, you could say it stands for "Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, who has the biggest bore gonne?" :lol: :razz: :bigsmyl2:

[buckweet]

john taylor just posted .. he has .72 caliber barrel's....

utter disbelief.......... ??? a .72 caliber ''PISTOL'' .....!!!

I had a contender super 14'' once, in .444 marlin. that was enough for me.

but ? once i gets this .62 caliber rifle built... i wouldn'y mind having a .62 caliber pistol. that would be ''neat''

[buckweet]

This little pee shooter was made several years back and donated as a prize at a rendezvous. It is 36 caliber and seems to shoot great. I didn't have a picture of it till the winner broke the main spring and sent it back for repair a few years ago.http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/johnptaylor/UNDERHAMMER36CALSMALL2.jpg

I think I have a couple 72 cal pistol barrels in the shop, need to track them down.




now why does that pistol remind me of a browning ''buckmark'' ??

sweet looking pistol.

john ? you do forsyth rifling ?

[John Taylor]

now why does that pistol remind me of a browning ''buckmark'' ??

sweet looking pistol.

john ? you do forsyth rifling ?

I did forsyth rifling on a 72 a while back, wide grooves narrow lands with a twist rate of 1 in 109"

[John Taylor]

john taylor just posted .. he has .72 caliber barrel's....

utter disbelief.......... ??? a .72 caliber ''PISTOL'' .....!!!

I had a contender super 14'' once, in .444 marlin. that was enough for me.

but ? once i gets this .62 caliber rifle built... i wouldn'y mind having a .62 caliber pistol. that would be ''neat''

tim

Someplace in the shop I have a 62 pistol barrel, problem is that it has a slow twist.
The two 72s I did a couple years ago because a customer wanted an under hammer big bore pistol. Order was canceled.

[buckweet]

Someplace in the shop I have a 62 pistol barrel, problem is that it has a slow twist.
The two 72s I did a couple years ago because a customer wanted an under hammer big bore pistol. Order was canceled.



john... if you ever run a few barrel's out in .62 and .72 [plain ol' round barrels]

with say ? 1:70 twist 1:66 ? with forsyth rifling..

just thinkin here ? them slow twists take lots of powder, but , from what im learning. [thanks to all of you].

a 1/66 in .72 should be pretty accurate out to a 100.

wouldn't need 150 grains to get it to shoot right.

and i'ed like to build an underhammer with just a plain ol' round barrel. single barrel shotgun look, and handmade hedgewood stock.[osage orange]

keep me in mind if you do.
just a thought.

tim

[John Taylor]

I have a 72 in stock but it is tapered octagon.
The 20 gauge smooth bore is ready to be fitted to a frame. Half round/octagon with wedding band.

[buckweet]

I have a 72 in stock but it is tapered octagon.
The 20 gauge smooth bore is ready to be fitted to a frame. Half round/octagon with wedding band.


p.m. inbound

[FL-Flinter]

357Max is very much correct, it's not about diameter or horsepower when it comes to fatalities ... properly placed impact of just 14psi is enough to stop most four & two legged critters without even breaking the skin. It's been a few years but a fellow posted his "mistake" on another forum. He had pre-measured powder charges in plastic tubes, got in the woods early and loaded in the dark. At some point in the day, he took a ≈25yd shot on a doe that went "ploink" instead of "boom". At first, he didn't think he hit her but as he watched she made about 50yds and dropped. After checking things out, seems as only about 25gr of the 90gr pre-measured charge came out of the tube. Shot was placed well as the ball penetrated the hide and came to rest just inside the heart.

While the above happened to work that time, I sure everyone will agree that given the fact that perfect shot placement can go wrong in less than a heartbeat, thus is why we opt to load in hopes of countering the "error factor" as best we can. When one looks back, many of the original American rifles were smaller bores in the 60+ balls/pound range for the matter of conserving ball and powder. Back then the primary emphasis was on shot placement and tracking ability after the shot. We have changed much in our hunting ways such as with turkeys the goal today with shotguns is shooting for the head while back in the day hunters shot for the legs.

I try to make it a point to stress the "error factor" as I'm sure most everyone who has done any amount of hunting knows things can change from the time the trigger is tripped until the projectile reaches the target and we also know how those limbs and saplings are so easily seen ... after the shot is taken. That was the case with the first deer I ever shot, the bullet punched through about a 1" sapling maybe 20yds before getting to the deer. I never saw it until I saw the size of the entrance hole and wondered why it was so big, retracing the shot is when I found the freshly splintered sapling nailed dead center. Critters also have that bad tendency to move about the same time the sear breaks changing that perfect boiler shot into a diaphram hit. The human factor also creates enough error factor too, from sighting errors to foot slipping or any number of other things that can ruin an otherwise good hunt. Thus, my opinion is, if a .40 will work, a .54 will also work and the extra horsepower isn't going to be a problem and may be a benefit for that less than ideal shot placement.

[357maximum]

B E A utiful synopsis Mark. I like it and I agree and I understand your thinking.

My hunting career started with a stick/string and an old underpowered by necessity handloaded and handmade falling block 32-40. I sometimes am guilty of getting a little too complacent with my hard earned skills, and forget some of my early blunders I suppose.

I just get a little nutsy cuckoo when I see certain "kill factors/formulas and math" come into play when it concerns killing a wee little deer.

I do not enjoy heavy recoil either, especially when it is not even close to neccesarry.........put me up against a grizzly and that train will leave the station however.

I really get excited and verbal when it comes to the 'BUCKSHOT STATE OF MINDERS" ...........I will never ever ever ever understand the mindset of "putting a wall of lead in front of the deer and hoping he runs into it" thing I suppose.

I do things others would not agree with and others do things I do not agree with. It is just how it is.

Personally I would much rather see someone shoot a small gun accurately than shoot a BIG gun poorly and simply forget their is a middle ground at times. Character flaw on my part I spose.

[Fabian23]

I occasionally shoot this beast:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/Fabian23/KL1.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/Fabian23/KL3.jpg

A Norwegian Kammerlader in .69". It is a military breach loading underhammer rifle. The lever is rotated up to cam back and tilt up the breech section of the barrel to introduce a paper catridge or loose powder and ball.

[buckweet]

now thats just too cool. whats the history on those ?

[Potsy]

Uh, yeah Fabian, come accross with a little more detail on that piece please.
Never seen one and it looks and sounds way cool.

[Fabian23]

I could rehash in my own words, but take a look at this page (http://www.svartkrutt.net/articles/index.php?kategori=3)which has three great articles summing up this family of rifles and carbines. They are VERY rare outside of Norway, but there are still relatively common back in Norway. The problem is that they have a historical heritage protection policy so getting antiques out is very hard. My one was practically smuggled out :wink:

[Potsy]

That is interesting.
I knew that the North had access to cartridge firing breechloaders and repeaters during the Civil War as did the South. The Northern Generals didn't believe in them enough to widely issue them and the South could only obtain them through capture.
I just have to wonder how one side or the other using them with different tactics would have affected things. I'll bet one in .46cal with Whitworth rifling would have been a holy terror in its day.
As to the rifle itself, it's a pretty neat evolutionary step from single shot muzzleloader to breachloading cartridge rifle. One I did not know existed. Learn something every day.

[buckweet]

That is interesting.
I knew that the North had access to cartridge firing breechloaders and repeaters during the Civil War as did the South. The Northern Generals didn't believe in them enough to widely issue them and the South could only obtain them through capture.
I just have to wonder how one side or the other using them with different tactics would have affected things. I'll bet one in .46cal with Whitworth rifling would have been a holy terror in its day.
As to the rifle itself, it's a pretty neat evolutionary step from single shot muzzleloader to breachloading cartridge rifle. One I did not know existed. Learn something every day.





well said, yes thats one very interesting rifle.

[357maximum]

That is a kewl rifle......never knew it even existed.

[John Taylor]

Just so you know how long under hammers have been around. This flint is dated to around 1750
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/johnptaylor/flintlockunderhammer.jpg

[buckweet]

wow... 260 years old.

now thats history.

[pietro]

(Zombies, ARISE ! ;) :mrgreen: )

In keeping with the underhammer thread here, I thought I post a pic of the .36cal H&A Heritage I picked up for $100 a few weeks ago, along with a .45 Seneca I got from a different shop the same day for the same $$$.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1056072/DSCN0385.JPG

It was a GOOD day. [smilie=w:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1056072/DSCN0386.JPG

.

[357maximum]

You had a really good day, congrats:bigsmyl2:

Now where's that I'm Jealous smile at??:shock:

[twotoescharlie]

have three, love them all. all rifled

36 H & A
50 cal. buggy rifle from kit.
62 cal. from kit, longhammock barrel.

TTC

[rhbrink]

Glad to see some start this thread back up. I wonder if anyone has heard from Buckweet? We had a running conservation going on about underhammers on the PM side and then he just disappeared. Hope he is alright and everything is going well for him.

[Shooter]

I have 5. 2 Deer Creek in .36 and .45 plus I made a buggy barrel in .50. I have 2 pistols, a H&A .36 and an unkown maker .45
I have an old H&A in .58 with a 11/8"X 32" barrel that I use as a Chunk gun. It is stamped "The Minute Man" on the barrel.

[buckweet]

Glad to see some start this thread back up. I wonder if anyone has heard from Buckweet? We had a running conservation going on about underhammers on the PM side and then he just disappeared. Hope he is alright and everything is going well for him.


howdy.. I'm doing better ..
life got in the way for awhile there..
still truckin... :)

[rhbrink]

PM on the way

RB