Printer Type / Linotype Crust Waste?

[wcb_gabe]

Just got done smelting down 2000 lbs of printers type and linotype. What is the foamy(consistancy) material that I'm fluxing and removing from the surface of the melt? When I do my last flux and melt stir prior to removing the material it will "crust" over on the surface. My pot temp is at around 600 degrees. I've always just thrown it in a 55 gal drum to recycle and am curious as to what it is(lead oxide?) It's about 100 lbs of waste per 1000 lbs. Just curious...

I've dropped into your forum every now and then and you folks are always full of good information. If I wasn't such an introvert I'd pipe up more often but most of the time the "panel of experts" here has given such good info I have nothing to add.

Thanks in advance for your responses,
Gabe

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c127/m_pact/smeltercrud1.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c127/m_pact/smeltercrud2.jpg

[guninhand]

If you don't get a response here try

www.theantimonyman.com

and send him an email. He knows linotype inside out.

[David R]

I don't have a clue what your "crust" is, but that sure is a nice smelting set up!

David.

If Its "slag" or impurities and you add it back to the melt, you will keep taking it off then adding it again. Try leaving it out.

How do you flux?

David

[Lee W]

I melted about 100 pounds of very old type and it too had a foamy consistency. I thought it was all junk at first then I mixed in plumbers flux (Tbs) and it reduced to small pile of black dirt.
The result was nice, shiny Linotype. Life is good.

[44man]

I would suspect it is antimony because the pot is not hot enough. The proper flux will let it melt back in at a lower temperature. It will still take some time to blend in even with the right flux. The antimony man sells a great flux with instructions.

[felix]

Don't know what is in the picture shown. You can try various fluxes, detergents for us, until the metals go back into "solution". The word flux as used in metallurgy probably had been borrowed from electro-magnetics, like what describes how and why magnets work. What we desire is the metals in the mix to be strongly attracted to the other metals in the mix, but only those metals we want to be mixed in. Hence the term detergent; let's get rid of the bad metals, and while we are at it, let's get rid of all of the trash that insulates the metals we want. So, remember, different fluxes do different detergent action. Just like different soaps for our laundry. Some laundry requires a completely different detergent to make the underwear sparkling white. Especially mine. ... felix

[garandsrus]

wcb_gabe,

When I smelted Linotype and FoundryType (even higher in Tin and Antimony) I got that same "foamy" stuff on top. After I fluxed a couple times by adding a couple handfulls of sawdust and some wax, lit the mixture, and stirred, everything got re-absorbed into the mix. I think it was the combination of the flux and increasing the heat (via the burning of the flux) that allowed the mix to re-combine.

Based on you getting about 10% of the "slushy stuff", I would guess that 44 man is correct that it is the Antimony. There is supposed to be around 12% Antimony in Linotype.

John

[wcb_gabe]

The way I usually flux is with waxes, motor oil, bar oil, or sawdust(really good but currently out). Did this batch with bar oil and candle wax. Have ice chip scoops, used in ice fishing, to push the fluxing agents into the melt and remove dross.

Well if that's antimony I'll be digging that back out of the drum and resmelting it. As you all know that stuff is not cheap. I have melted raw antimony into lead at high temps but was of the impression that once I was able to get them combined they'd stay that way. I do have antimonial flux around here and will go get some more sawdust and see if I can get that "crust" or at least the antimony back into the melt. I have remelted the stuff before to get some of the lead that stays with the crust when I scoop it out back into the melt. The crust/foam would still be there to be removed again.

If this is antimony would I be correct in guessing that is still "mixed" with lead to some degree and won't require the very high temps it takes to smelt raw antimony into lead?

What temperature would you guys recommend to try getting this material back into the melt? If I need a really high temp I'll have to use a smaller pot.

Heck I'll try that... a smaller pot- bunches of btus and different fluxes = more crust or valuable antimony? After all don't want to dig out that heavy stuff if it's just junk.

Back to the shop I go................. Hi Ho HiHo off to make bullets I go... da da du dum da da du dum Hi Ho HiHo Hi Ho HiHo ---- did I say that out loud?

[carpetman]

wcb gabe---Maybe that foamy stuff from the printers type is misspelled words and typos. Consistancy will make a big pile of it but consistency wont.

[felix]

If this is antimony would I be correct in guessing that is still "mixed" with lead to some degree and won't require the very high temps it takes to smelt raw antimony into lead? ... Gabe

Temp and time is a function of the flux, and only the flux used. Organic fluxes, like rosin, will fall apart with high temps. Ask a baseball pitcher/coach for some rosin and try that as well. Try any of the metal chlorides, which are not as temp sensitive. In other words, try the kitchen sink. ... felix

[versifier]

Your pot is not hot enough and it was not properly fluxed. You should have ended up with about a half coffee can full of brownish black crud. Get the temp above 700*, ideally between 750 - 800*. There is no danger of zinc contamination in your lino, so the higher temp presents neither contamination nor health hazards (anything below 900* won't be vaporizing the lead). I prefer beeswax as a flux when smelting lino, use a golfball sized lump for your size smelter and stir it in thoroughly. The ubiquitous slotted spoon used for removing ww clips used in a motion similar to that with a whisk for scrambling eggs works well, (in other words, get some air in with it) and make sure you scrape the sides and bottom of the pot, too. Lino just takes a different technique and flux than ww's. No big deal. I don't know what is in the foam, I just know how to prevent it happening.

[wcb_gabe]

Lots of great info guys... keep it coming.

Carpetman- Hay it wus long dey and I'm not an english taecher :) That and I don't discriminate against vowels... equil opportunity und all. That or I'll claim typo the a and e are kinda close together... yea that's it...

Felix - the kitchen sink won't fit in the small pot...

I'll fill you guys in with what I figure out tonight.
Thanks again, Gabe

[wcb_gabe]

Well the crust issue has been solved... and it was by temperature.

When I got the pot up to around 680 degrees the foam/crust reduced back into the melt and left the black/brown dust you guys mentioned. For good measure I also added a cup of bar oil, a candle, 1 inch pine sawdust, 1 inch cedar sawdust and set it all ablaze while stirring/aggitating/mixing(fluxing) it into the melt. This mini bon fire got the melt temp up to 700 degrees.

Or as felix would put it - I threw the kitchen sink at it..

:drinks:

Needless to say I dug out the junk/crust out of that 55 gal barrel and alloyed it... :-D - so that's another 400 lbs of bullets I can make that I would of ended up "throwing away - recycling"

Thanks much!!!
Gabe

[wcb_gabe]

p.s.- I'm going to be sore tomorrow!!

[David R]

I think the flux you added at the top adds heat to the stuff on top to help it go back into the melt. I always thought this was part of the reason for fluxing.

Glad it worked out.

David

[44man]

The purpose of flux is to exclude oxygen and to clean oxidation off of the metal so the metals are in direct contact with each other. If you ever tried to solder or silver solder metals without flux you will see what I mean.

[garandsrus]

Gabe,

The second alloy (foam/crust) is going to be different than your first alloy. When you cast you will probably want to mix the second alloy back into the first in about the same ratio you skimmed it off, which was 9-1 (10% foam/crust).

If you cast a bullet from each alloy without mixing them back together, they will probably throw bullet that is several grains different in weight.

John

[wcb_gabe]

Hi guys
I figured I'd clarify what happened since I was bent on updating everyone last night instead of going directly to bed.

With a small pot w/lid(lid probably helped eliminate excess oxygen- helping to keep tin and antimony from oxidizing out of the melt) I quickly found out high temp on a on 30 lbs. of material/crust reduced the said crust back into a usable alloy.

Note- Having a lid on the big pot might of allowed pot temps to exceed 700 degrees temporarily as I didn't get a melt temperature until about 10 mins after removing lid.

I then took the rest of my crust supply and put it all in the big pot with 80 lbs of known linotype(separate batch). After heating(and taking a nap) for a couple hours took off the lid and noticed all the material had melted together leaving only a black ash coating on the surface of the melt(with some other waste metals solids). The ash in my opinion was at that point making an effective oxidation barrier(lid also probably helped) and the ash probably could have been removed without any need to flux the melt to reduce wanted metals into the melt.

At that point I added the previously mentioned fluxing agents to clean the melt more than anything.

I will make a handful of bullets out of this alloy to play with and test but most of the alloy will be used to increase tin and antimony content of softer alloys like WW's and pure lead. That is of course after get a better idea of this new alloys tin and antimony content.

This alloy gets it's own separate pile since it doesn't go into the linotype, 6-2 or 5-5 or other piles. This alloys official name is crustylino ?-? for now.

Since I mainly make pistol bullets linotype or higher antimony/tin content alloys would be wasting a lot of precious metals if shot straight with the applications I'm using it for.

Wow, this got long fast. I apologize if I induced any napping.
Gabe

p.s- all of the above mentioned material is immaterial since I have scientifically proven the nap(patent pending) was the real solution. Hey I can make a million off that idea - think of all the worlds problems that could be solved with a nap... just remember you heard it here first. :-D

[shooter575]

I cast mostly big ol minnes in pure pb.I have for years skimed off the dross.[I dip]
I knew it was lead oxide so I saved a lot of it hopeing to find out how to get rid of that pesky O2 atom. Thanks to felix I tried the sawdust fluxing method and like you had a nice batch of lead with just a bit of ash on top.
Hate to think of how much of good lead I trashed in pushing 30 years of casting.
From what I understand the carbon mixes with the O2 to form CO2 and goes away.Neet trick! :)