Benchrest target

[crabo]

Would someone explain to me the concept behind the benchrest target with the square above the bullseye?

Thanks,

[deltaenterprizes]

The square is for use with open sights.

[mike in co]

The square is for use with open sights.

lol..u are funny if nothing else.

once , along long time ago , before 36x plus scope, before shooting under .2 was common..it had a function.....you could hold on it and hit below...not upsetting your aiming point.

today...not much use unless you are real tricky and use it to square up your crosshairs..but most people shoot better than that today.


mike in co

[AZ-Stew]

I for get what reason was given, but I have read that having your point of impact below your point of aim gives smaller groups. That's why the square is above the target rings center. In addition, the square aiming point is more precise and repeatable than a circular aiming point. It allows you to center and square your crosshairs better than you can with a round aiming point.

Regards,

Stew

[Cadillo]

I for get what reason was given, but I have read that having your point of impact below your point of aim gives smaller groups. That's why the square is above the target rings center. In addition, the square aiming point is more precise and repeatable than a circular aiming point. It allows you to center and square your crosshairs better than you can with a round aiming point.

Regards,

Stew


Could very well be true, but when using a scope, the very best and most precise target is an appropriately sized and properly plumbed cross that can be aligned with, but not swallow up the horizontal and verticle parts of the reticle. When doing this, you want the group to impact at some point other than the actual cross center so as to not remove or otherwise disturb your aiming point.

[mike in co]

benchrest guys shoot both fine crosshairs and small dots(1/16).
so there are 2 schools of hold.
most of the guys seem to pick some point in the 10ring, and move to compensated for wind. they do not touch thier scope adjustments once they are shooting in the match.

mike in co

[deltaenterprizes]

I have associated with numerous benchrest shooters and the square is from the beginning of the sport when scopes were very expensive.
Most benchrest shooters today use 36 power scopes with a 3/32 dot that is on cross hairs that can barely be seen. That dot covers the 1/8'' dot that is the bullseye at 200 yds. The triggers break at 2 ounces,if you touch the trigger ,the gun fires.
Look up Don Geraci, he was the benchrest champion of the world in the early 80s. I saw his winning 200 yd group, 10 shots that could be covered with a dime. It was attached to the top of his shooting box. That size group would not win anything today.
An old benchrest shooter named Walter Callahan invited me to look through his scope on his rifle and when I did all I could see was a little tiny dot floating in the center, I had to look again to find the cross hairs. Most cross hairs obliterate more area than the size groups benchrest shooters are trying to achieve.
Walter and his buddy Raymond Brunet built their own guns and made their own bullets and had been in the benchrest game for a long time when I met them in 1983 and they were the ones that told me why the square is there.
Like Mike said not much use today.

[felix]

Either way: the dot centered, or the crosshairs on corner. Depends on the shooter's style. Nobody shoots at POA and usually adjusts the scope into the wind depending on how puffy the wind is. Disqualified if your bullet goes into an adjacent target no matter what. No excuses, bar none. ... felix

[Houndog]

Welll,
Some of youall almost have it right. That square is exactly 1" and the lines making it up are 1/4" If you are REAL good reading the wind flags you can use the lines or the square to precisely aim for hold off. When I started Benchrest I used the corner of the square and bracketed it on the cross hair intersection for an aiming point. Back then 30-36 power scopes were the norm and that was the most precise hold you could use. Then came the 1/8MOA dot. you could center it in the mothball and then use the ring making up the mothball for holdoff. Today a 36 power scope is probably the least powerful model you will see on the line. Most shooters use 40-45 power scopes with some going as high as 60. I personally use a 45 Leupold or a Weaver that's been bumped up to 50 power by Wally Siebert. I still use the 1/8MOA dot, but I use a 6 oclock hold on the line making up the mothball for my aiming point. You can use the circle making up the mothball to judge your holdoff. That line is 1/8 inch thick. My personal light varmint bench gun is a 6PPC built on a Stolle Panda with a Kreiger 4 groove 1-13.5 twist barrel (usually)and has a Jewell trigger set to 1/2 ounce release weight. Felix is right on two points. NOBODY shoots POA because you would destroy your aiming point and 1 round outside the borders of your target and you are disqualified.

[mike in co]

Either way: the dot centered, or the crosshairs on corner. Depends on the shooter's style. Nobody shoots at POA and usually adjusts the scope into the wind depending on how puffy the wind is. Disqualified if your bullet goes into an adjacent target no matter what. No excuses, bar none. ... felix


you mean adjust THIER HOLD into the wind...not the scope(s adjustments) ...right ??

[Houndog]

Mike, you are exactly right. You don't move the scope adjustments after you start your group, and preferably not for several shots before starting a group so it settles the erector tube and paralex adjustments.

[stephen perry]

Seems Houndog whoever he is and myself are the only 2 BR guys here. You guys are only talking 100 yd targets. in short range there are 200 and 300 yd targets also. as stated earlier a 100 yd square is 1" square. For 200 yd the square is 2" square and 300 yd the square is 3".

True allot of shooters sight in where they want to form their groups and never touch their adjustments again. But some like myself especially at 200 will click to catch their first shot. I have faith in 1/8 minute clicks and prefer to hold as close to my group for each shot. For extreme winds like 40-50 mph especially at Phoenix I hold off on to a ring try to form my groups in the circle. Sometimes you need to hold on the outside ring. On days to forget the edge of the target. Ten shot matches can make a grown man cry.

Not trying to smack these guys chops but these never statements about BR are not so. If your first shot hits where you are aiming that's a POI hold of coarse. I will hold the same for the next shots if the condition holds where else would you hold. As far as holding on the aiming square sure shooters shooting 200/300 use the square especially if mirage wipes out all the circles on the target. The square is all that's left to hold on unless you hold on the edge of the target. I am an all year round BR shooter not a computer BR shooter. I fill my BR time off with Cast.


Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

[mike in co]

for the record....mr steve is on my ignore list here and on benchrest central, where other BENCHREST shooters also have him on ignore.


mike in co

[geargnasher]

Nobody mentioned anything about the square being a non-scored portion of the target where once could dope out wind changes or mirage without firing into the scoring group. That's what my club used it for when I finally advanced from "hunter class" bullseye targets and went to "real" br for a brief time in the early '90s, figured that was universal. Each shot (either scoring or sighting) was, of course, called and accounted for.

Gear

[mike in co]

Nobody mentioned anything about the square being a non-scored portion of the target where once could dope out wind changes or mirage without firing into the scoring group. That's what my club used it for when I finally advanced from "hunter class" bullseye targets and went to "real" br for a brief time in the early '90s, figured that was universal. Each shot (either scoring or sighting) was, of course, called and accounted for.

Gear
in br competition, the targets are in sheets(100/200yd) and in the corner of the sheet is a target with the letter 'S'....SIGHTER. any shot on any other target on the sheet counts.....local club rules may differ.

mike in co

[jhrosier]

Would someone explain to me the concept behind the benchrest target with the square above the bullseye?

Thanks,
crabo,

It seems like a simple question should have a simple answer, and it does.
First, the centerfire stool shooters go for group size, not score, so it really doesn't matter where the group falls as long as it is on the designated target.
The round part of the bull is simply a visual reference for the shooter/spotter to establish the location of a shot in relation to other shots (the group.)
Since these guys usually hit exactly where they intend, the target gets torn up in that area and makes a poor aiming point.

The square above the bull is a good aiming point that won't get messed up by the group.

Way back when, scopes had fairly coarse cross hairs and the 1" white square at 100 yards left a nice little white square peeking out around the intersection of the cross hairs.
Modern higher power and optically better scopes have actually made the 1" white square less useful for its' intended purpose.

Jack

[stephen perry]

Mike you're not a BR shooter in NBRSA/IBS competition I am what else is there to say.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :holysheep

[felix]

I have not shot in a league since the mid 70's, and quite frankly don't care to re-enter. I learned real fast who the shooters were, and the best ones overall (on average) were not hung up on any technicality but making weather
conditions work in their favor to the demise of their competitors. THAT alone separates the men from the boys in this sport. ... felix

[stephen perry]

There are practice BR targets and then there are NBRSA and IBS BR targets. On NBRSA/IBS Targets everything is the same except for the placement of sighter bulls on the sighter target. On both there are 2 target boxes same size seperated from each other by 3 1/4" of space. Inside the 2 boxes same size are the black square on top and 4 circles with a mothball circle in the middle. The bottom target box is the sighter box any amounts of shots can be fired on it. It has 2 small sighter targets added that shooters generally use for the first shots on the sighter. You can come back anytime durimg the firing period to the sighter and shoot sighter shots.

The record target is where only the prescribed amount of shots make up the record group. Any shots more than 5 have no penalty and the group is measured for all shots. less tha n 5 have a 1" penalty dded to the mesuremant. Usuually the extra shots make your group larger so you need a counting system to get the right amount of shots on the record target. There is a moving backer system that counts shots on the record and you will charged for the amount of shots on the record if less than 5 on a 5 shot event and less than 10 on a 10 shot event. Referees take care making judgement on backer and record targets. Inside the record target the top box the group can be formed anywhere including inside the black box. Most shooters avoid landing shots hitting the black box as it makes it hard to see where it hit and hard for the measurer to get an accurate measurement. Shooters have different aiming points but will change if groups form away. My aiming points are 3,6,9 o'clock and in center hold on the moth ball.

Like I said earlier if I don't click to my first record shot I hold on one of the rings hold other other rings if vertical holds if neither horizontal or vertical is not holding then more work is needed on the sighter to try and make a group. Most of this is done on 200/300 targets. On 100 yd targets holding off is not done as much as reading wind flags for repeat conditions takes care of the holding but shooters do hold off on 100 yd targets just not as much.

Not trying to be a know it all but you guys asked some good questions and some of the answers you got were incomplete and inaccurrate. My speaking comes from being a NBRSA competitor since 1977, NBRSA/IBS Shoot Director at San Gabriel for 13 years, ran 2 BR schools at San Gabriel, and future Angeles NBRSA Shoot Director next year. One last bit of mis-information to clear up I started in 1977 with a 20x Lyman LWBR scope. I shot the motball back then and as I said earlier the only time I used the black square for an aiming point was when the Mirage wiped ot the rings usually at 200. But guys I am a Cast guy too need more cast info.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[geargnasher]

in br competition, the targets are in sheets(100/200yd) and in the corner of the sheet is a target with the letter 'S'....SIGHTER. any shot on any other target on the sheet counts.....local club rules may differ.

mike in co

Roger that, Mike, just thought I'd throw it out there since that's the way we did it. This thread got my curiosity up since I had wondered the same thing Crabo did, seemed like a good aiming point if your poi was adjusted down a few inches.

I liked shooting for bullseyes in Hunter class much better, anyway.

Gear

[jerrold]

I shot "benchrest" in the NBRSA for many years. It is my understanding that the square has no official purpose, that said, it is used to judge mirage and wind drift. That may have been the original purpose. I have seen conditions when the "mothball" was invisible in mirage or rain.
Things may have changed, but probably 2/3 of the shooters I know did not use a dot in their scope because it covered too large an area on the target. Most competitors liked a POI below the X to avoid the black of the box and not shoot the point of aim.
:coffee:


jerrold

[crabo]

What are you guys calling the "mothball"? Is that the bullseye?

[mike in co]

I shot "benchrest" in the NBRSA for many years. It is my understanding that the square has no official purpose, that said, it is used to judge mirage and wind drift. That may have been the original purpose. I have seen conditions when the "mothball" was invisible in mirage or rain.
Things may have changed, but probably 2/3 of the shooters I know did not use a dot in their scope because it covered too large an area on the target. Most competitors liked a POI below the X to avoid the black of the box and not shoot the point of aim.
:coffee:


jerrold

that must have been some time ago. the prior model br scopes form luepold have a fine target dot that is slightly larger than the lines on the target. you can put the dot anywhere you want. the common point is the bottom of the ten ring with impact above it. this allows one to move the dot across the bottom of the 10 ring for the wind.
its probably more like 50/05 or higher..as much as 3/1 using dots.....three of my 4 36x br scopes are dots.
i do not know the origin of the term moth ball...but believe it refers to male genitailia of a moth. there is an x in the center of the ten ring, but it ain't an "x"..its a dot..a very small dot...thus a moth ball.........


mike in co

[KCSO]

Puckle says...
Square for turks and round for christians.

[stephen perry]

For Registered NBRSA or IBS targets the center circle has no dot or x the circle is empty. Club or practice targets can have anything they want inside the circle.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

[mike in co]

For Registered NBRSA or IBS targets the center circle has no dot or x the circle is empty. Club or practice targets can have anything they want inside the circle.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

thats strange ...every score shoot i hae been in has a dot in the middle.......

it said br not group

ohh im sorry i forgot....i dont count......


mike in co

[stephen perry]

This is the opinon of many on Benchrest Central.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :holysheep

[felix]

There are no dots in an official BR target. Just concentric circles and one square, plus a border that should not be struck around all. ... felix

[mike in co]

This is the opinon of many on Benchrest Central.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :holysheep

actually it is the opinon of only a few. i'm an adult i can deal with it.

what i like better is that known BECHREST SHOOTERS have YOU on thier ignore list...just like me.

anyone that would call the owner of a site, a fool, is skating on thn ice.


mike in co

[BerdanIII]

Puckle says...
Square for turks and round for christians.

KCSO: Your education is showing......

[1Shirt]

Being a Nebraskan, I side with KCSO!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[357maximum]

This is not Benchrest Central. Personal attacks are not tolerated here. Go measure/compare your units elswhere and Knock it off please.

[mike in co]

There are no dots in an official BR target. Just concentric circles and one square, plus a border that should not be struck around all. ... felix


felix,
benchrest for score uses a dot in the middle of the target. it is an "x" and has official status in score as in 250-25x, in unofficial score they also count"wipeouts" ...complete removal of all ink of the dot. unofficial score could be 250-25x,24wipeouts.

mike in co

[crabo]

Thanks for the info guys. I now understand how the targets are used. Why don't you guys that want to argue take it to pm? For having the other guy on your ignore list, you sure seem to care what the other one thinks.

[trk]

This is not Benchrest Central. Personal attacks are not tolerated here. Go measure/compare your units elswhere and Knock it off please.



Feel free to edit out the personal attacks!

They add NOTHING and deminish the quality of the discourse.

[Ed Barrett]

Puckle says...
Square for turks and round for christians.

Was the Puckle used for the flintlock BR matches in England?

[BerdanIII]

"Was the Puckle used for the flintlock BR matches in England?"

I don't think tripod-mounted, crew-served weapons were allowed.....