7.65 Cast Boolit Special ???

[KCSO]

I had to load some 7.65 Argentine last night and I accidentally sized an 8 mm Mauser down. Well I looked at it and a light bulb went on... the only problem with the 7.65 for shooting cast bullets is the short neck. You either have to seat the bullets with a lube groove out or have the gas check down under the neck, same with the 308. Well an 8MM sized in a 7.65 die gives you a nice neck for cast bullets. In the picture below is a standard 7.65 and an 8. Notice that with the bullets seated to the same over all length the 8 covers the exposed lube groove and the gc is still up in the neck of the case. Now all it would take to make this conversion would be to ream the neck portion of the chamber forward 3 mm. This probably wouldn't hurt the gun for shooting jacketed bullets and the longer neck on the case would be a plus for cast.

Am I flogging a dead horse here ? has anyone else done this. I'm getting ready to turn a reamer. Any thoughts? The 7.65 cast boolit express???

[TCLouis]

What happens when the neck of the cartridge is jammed 4 mm beyond the end of the chamber, if it will chamber at all?

7.65X53 and 8X57 if I remember the names correctly

[StarMetal]

What happens when the neck of the cartridge is jammed 4 mm beyond the end of the chamber, if it will chamber at all?

7.65X53 and 8X57 if I remember the names correctly

First Jim is a gunsmith and knows what he is doing. Second the 7.65 comes in two names, that is 7.65x54 and 7.65x53. Third he said extend the neck portion by 3mm which already has extra clearance in it. They don't chamber rifles and the mouth comes right up to the end of the neck portion.

Joe

[badgeredd]

I had to load some 7.65 Argentine last night and I accidentally sized an 8 mm Mauser down. Well I looked at it and a light bulb went on... the only problem with the 7.65 for shooting cast bullets is the short neck. You either have to seat the bullets with a lube groove out or have the gas check down under the neck, same with the 308. Well an 8MM sized in a 7.65 die gives you a nice neck for cast bullets. In the picture below is a standard 7.65 and an 8. Notice that with the bullets seated to the same over all length the 8 covers the exposed lube groove and the gc is still up in the neck of the case. Now all it would take to make this conversion would be to ream the neck portion of the chamber forward 3 mm. This probably wouldn't hurt the gun for shooting jacketed bullets and the longer neck on the case would be a plus for cast.

Am I flogging a dead horse here ? has anyone else done this. I'm getting ready to turn a reamer. Any thoughts? The 7.65 cast boolit express???

I see no reason not to make the neck of the chamber 3mm longer if your wanting to use the gun primarily for cast boolits. Safety wise, the standard cartridge WOULD chamber and fire if someone else got the gun. Given the operating pressures of the Argie, it doesn't seem to me to be a bad conversion at all. You will (in theory) have a slightly smaller case head in the converted 8mm brass, but I can see no reason for that to be any real concern. Brass in my area seems to be more plentiful for 8x57 than for the 7.62x53(54). I actually used some 6.5 Swede brass necked up to get a decent supply of the Argie brass.

On the same line of thinking, I wanted a 9x57 (actually 35 caliber) and decided to make a wildcat by running 30-06 brass through a 8x57 die and then cutting the cartridge to 60mm to achieve a longer neck to kinda get a shortbodied 35 Whelen. It shoots well and it is likely of no use to the vast majority of gun owners, but I'm happy and it is MY gun for ME. Your conversion on the other hand, should have no real affect on the majority of fellows that would likely want the gun. Just my humble opinion....

Edd

[StarMetal]

I see no reason not to make the neck of the chamber 3mm longer if your wanting to use the gun primarily for cast boolits. Safety wise, the standard cartridge WOULD chamber and fire if someone else got the gun. Given the operating pressures of the Argie, it doesn't seem to me to be a bad conversion at all. You will (in theory) have a slightly smaller case head in the converted 8mm brass, but I can see no reason for that to be any real concern. Brass in my area seems to be more plentiful for 8x57 than for the 7.62x53(54). I actually used some 6.5 Swede brass necked up to get a decent supply of the Argie brass.

On the same line of thinking, I wanted a 9x57 (actually 35 caliber) and decided to make a wildcat by running 30-06 brass through a 8x57 die and then cutting the cartridge to 60mm to achieve a longer neck to kinda get a shortbodied 35 Whelen. It shoots well and it is likely of no use to the vast majority of gun owners, but I'm happy and it is MY gun for ME. Your conversion on the other hand, should have no real affect on the majority of fellows that would likely want the gun. Just my humble opinion....

Edd


You must have a fat chamber in your Arggie to get 6.5 Swede brass to fit as the web/head area is fatter.

Joe

[runfiverun]

there is a long necked 308 win that is built for the very same reason.
i personally think that the longer necked round is a very good idea,too bad mauser didn't do it.
had peter paul done a couple of things differently the gun world would be very different.

[StarMetal]

I wanted to add that the 7.53x54 case length data is 53.9mm and the 8x57's is 56.9mm. So I think Jim knows what he is doing.

Joe

[badgeredd]

You must have a fat chamber in your Arggie to get 6.5 Swede brass to fit as the web/head area is fatter.

Joe

Right you are Joe....I was also bassackwards, again. Other than that I still believe it would be a good conversion if Jim wants to do it.

Edd

[KCSO]

Starmetal Thanks for the help. I'm an old guy and when I started reloading if you wanted Argie (7.65x 53 or 54 depending on the book) ammo (sorry hyd.) you had to make it yourself and we either used 30-06 or 8 MM. I know that 8mm is 4 thousands undersized in the case head but it has worked well for me when it was what I could get. Now as to the conversion. It is my intention to turn a reamer to lengthen the neck approximatly 3 mm. I will plan on going 4 thou over the length of the resied case to allow for case lengthening. I thought at one time someone here had talked about doing this to the 308 to make a cast bullet rifle and I was hoping someone would have some idea on how it works out in practice. As I got ready for this post I checked my note book and the last jacketed bullet I fired in a hunting rifle was in 2004 so you might say I am cast dedicated. I will probably never shoot a jacketed bullet in the rifle again.
Aslo a note the M91 sporter I am working with has the old chamber for the 200 grains bullet and so I have to seat out to the lands anyway.

[StarMetal]

Starmetal Thanks for the help. I'm an old guy and when I started reloading if you wanted Argie (7.65x 53 or 54 depending on the book) ammo (sorry hyd.) you had to make it yourself and we either used 30-06 or 8 MM. I know that 8mm is 4 thousands undersized in the case head but it has worked well for me when it was what I could get. Now as to the conversion. It is my intention to turn a reamer to lengthen the neck approximatly 3 mm. I will plan on going 4 thou over the length of the resied case to allow for case lengthening. I thought at one time someone here had talked about doing this to the 308 to make a cast bullet rifle and I was hoping someone would have some idea on how it works out in practice. As I got ready for this post I checked my note book and the last jacketed bullet I fired in a hunting rifle was in 2004 so you might say I am cast dedicated. I will probably never shoot a jacketed bullet in the rifle again.
Aslo a note the M91 sporter I am working with has the old chamber for the 200 grains bullet and so I have to seat out to the lands anyway.

Jim,

Do let us know how it turns out if you proceed with it. Although the 7.65 has a short neck it's noways near as short as the 300 Savage or 300 Win Mag.

I was talking to my friend on the phone last night and he read somewhere one of the experts said the 1909 Argentine carbine was about the perfect rifle and perfect caliber....the 7.65. The round is really underrated. I believe it's about as hot as the 308.

Have fun with it Jim.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Right you are Joe....I was also bassackwards, again. Other than that I still believe it would be a good conversion if Jim wants to do it.

Edd

badger,

I'm confused...did you or didn't use the 6.5 Swede. I'll tell you why. I use 06 brass for the 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenaur and the 06 brass is as much fatter then the 6.5x54MS as the 6.5 Swede is then the 7.65 Argentine. It can be done with tough sizing tools.

Joe

[dbldblu]

314299 in the standard 7.65x53 case will accomplish what you state. Now, if you want to use 311467 or something, then I understand.

[Buckshot]

badger,

I'm confused...did you or didn't use the 6.5 Swede. I'll tell you why. I use 06 brass for the 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenaur and the 06 brass is as much fatter then the 6.5x54MS as the 6.5 Swede is then the 7.65 Argentine. It can be done with tough sizing tools.

Joe

............Joe, if he's using American made 6.5 x 55 brass it'd probably be fine.

...........Buckshot

[KCSO]

Case head dimensions are not always up to spec. for example the 8mm Mauser is suppose to be .469 and the 30-06 . 470 the 6.5x55 .476. I have 8MM ranging from 470 to 465 depending on manufacture and 30-06 running from 469 to 472. Add in chamber tolerance and sometimes it surprises you as to what can make what.

As to bullets that will work, yes there are some. In my gun I need to seat close to the rifling for best accuracy and I was hoping to come close to matching the versitality of the 30-30 and the 30-40 Krag when loading cast bullets. With my Krag I can load from 90 to 220 grain bullet and no matter what it is I can usually cover all the grease grooves and never drop below the neck. If I were at all practical i would just load the Krag and forget the Argie but then again this isn't a practical sport.

[StarMetal]

............Joe, if he's using American made 6.5 x 55 brass it'd probably be fine.

...........Buckshot

That would be kind of rare wouldn't it Rick? I have some Norma and PMC and I can guarantee you it's pretty fat stuff. The Norma won't even fit in an 06 shell holder and although the PMC will it's web is still very fat.

Joe

[Buckshot]

.............Joe, the key here is "American Made". Neither Norma nor PMC is American made. The Remington and Winchester 6.5x55 brass I have on hand both mic .471"/.472". I distinctly recall the major wailing and knashing of teeth by Swedeaholics that the American ammo makers were merely (and without regard to the obvious mortal danger they were placing the poor uninformed neobarb Swede owner in with undersized caseheads) using the normal 30-06 size casehead OD, and woebetide anyone stupid enough to shoot it.

.............Buckshot

[bruce drake]

Not to add another stick to the fire but aren't you really talking about the 7.7x58 Arisaka cartridge? Its 4mm longer in the neck than the 7.65 Arg and is the same caliber boolit...

[StarMetal]

Not to add another stick to the fire but aren't you really talking about the 7.7x58 Arisaka cartridge? Its 4mm longer in the neck than the 7.65 Arg and is the same caliber boolit...

The 7.65 would have a longer neck then the 7.7 Jap with KSCO's idea. The Jap brass is harder to find then the 8x57 also.

Joe

[StarMetal]

.............Joe, the key here is "American Made". Neither Norma nor PMC is American made. The Remington and Winchester 6.5x55 brass I have on hand both mic .471"/.472". I distinctly recall the major wailing and knashing of teeth by Swedeaholics that the American ammo makers were merely (and without regard to the obvious mortal danger they were placing the poor uninformed neobarb Swede owner in with undersized caseheads) using the normal 30-06 size casehead OD, and woebetide anyone stupid enough to shoot it.

.............Buckshot

Rick,

By the way I have PMC and the web is dang near to Swede specs. If the case necks were thicker (like I get with 06 formed brass) it would be perfect. The Norma I have is also thicker in the web and it's rim size is to spec also as it won't fit a shell holder for an 06.

You don't own anything that is foreign made? [smilie=l:

Joe

[Buckshot]

Rick,
You don't own anything that is foreign made? [smilie=l:

Joe

..........Yes I do. Several hundred PMC's from when they were close to the only inexpensive 6.5x55 out there in the early '90's (Hansen was spotty) and the rangemaster would pick them up and save them for me. I also have about 80 Norma cases. In addition I have a bit over 100 CBC cases in 6.5x55 which Century was selling way back when, and if you bought a Swede from them you could also buy some ammo which was CBC (CBC is the parent company for Mag-Tech of Brazil) and is very high quality brass. Or as least it was then, and of correct head OD for the Swede.

But at issue was casehead OD difference between the American made 6.5x55 brass using the std 'Mauser' size vs the larger correct Swede OD, no?

.................Buckshot

[StarMetal]

..........Yes I do. Several hundred PMC's from when they were close to the only inexpensive 6.5x55 out there in the early '90's (Hansen was spotty) and the rangemaster would pick them up and save them for me. I also have about 80 Norma cases. In addition I have a bit over 100 CBC cases in 6.5x55 which Century was selling way back when, and if you bought a Swede from them you could also buy some ammo which was CBC (CBC is the parent company for Mag-Tech of Brazil) and is very high quality brass. Or as least it was then, and of correct head OD for the Swede.

But at issue was casehead OD difference between the American made 6.5x55 brass using the std 'Mauser' size vs the larger correct Swede OD, no?

.................Buckshot

Rick,

Yes casehead as in solid web OD, not the rim.

Joe

[leadman]

I too own a '91 and think your idea would work very well. I make my cases from 270 Win. and do not get any bulge by the web so don't understand the issue of size. Seems to me if a 6.5 Swede was full length sized or put in a trim die the web area were be sized down?

I'll try this tomorrow with 7.5x55 and see what happens. I do have the trim die for the 7.65 that I use to make my cases.

I have a custom barrel for my Contender in "300 Whisper" not made by J.D.Jones. The gunsmith that made it lengthened the neck to get away from legal issues.
This is an advantage for me in a way. I make my brass from 223 and trim them long and load a .310" 314299 in it. Works very well with lots of support for the boolit.

[StarMetal]

I too own a '91 and think your idea would work very well. I make my cases from 270 Win. and do not get any bulge by the web so don't understand the issue of size. Seems to me if a 6.5 Swede was full length sized or put in a trim die the web area were be sized down?

I'll try this tomorrow with 7.5x55 and see what happens. I do have the trim die for the 7.65 that I use to make my cases.

I have a custom barrel for my Contender in "300 Whisper" not made by J.D.Jones. The gunsmith that made it lengthened the neck to get away from legal issues.
This is an advantage for me in a way. I make my brass from 223 and trim them long and load a .310" 314299 in it. Works very well with lots of support for the boolit.

Leadman,

Don't try to size down a case like the 7.5 Swiss or 6.5 Swede in a die that is even say .002 inch smaller. You will crack it. Believe me I know. It's very hard to swage down that much with just ordinary dies and press. Take the 06 for example. the fat part of the body by the web goes around .470. The Swede goes .479. The 7.5 Swiss goes .493. Please don't try it. That's way too much for a standard die and press.

Joe