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stephen perry
12-21-2009, 11:11 AM
The topic here is the effect powder fouling does or does not have on cast bullet shooting. Now I am a full fledged NBRSA benchrest shooter but I started Cast 15 years before, 1962, before I pull off my first BR trigger. I am a student of Francis Mann and proud of it. Mann the ultimate lead bullet tester of his time gravitated into full gas check bullets mostly fmj's but his heart was with lead.

Dr Mann talks less than none about cleaning barrels saying only that concentrated ammonia was a god send to taking care of primer fouling assuming I guess that powder fouling was part of the deal too.

Well with our primers of today less poisened and particle matter being a part of the powder fouling I say we be concerned with powder fouling in cast shooting. Some powder fouling fills the nooks and crannies of a barrel close to the breech the rest present an obstruction with high and lows in barrels as the bullet heads for the exit door. These barrel accelerations work out to a muzzle velocity but fight the twist all the way. Bullet stability better sooner than later determines arc the projectile travels. A true parabolic arc shot after shot makes those cloverleaf groups you guys like to display. My question is always the same show me the group before and after.

What I use to clear powder fouling is a wet patch of rubbing alcohol soon after firing a group. This pushes powder out the bore then a solvent cleaning follows. If I don't have time in a match I go with a alcohol patch only dry patching good. I find that if shooting in the same conditions that after alcohol patching my first shot hits where my last group formed no 2/3 fouling shots to get back in the groove. Try the alcohol patch without a full cleaning see if I'm not right.
Done.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

stephen perry
12-21-2009, 07:14 PM
I going to advance this Thread one time only. I wrote this early this morning. I feel it has some merit and will let it go from here.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

captaint
12-22-2009, 02:29 AM
Well, stephen perry, I'll try your alchohol patch!!! Why not?? I'll try anything once. I used to always soak my rifle bores with solvent at the range while they were still warm. An old friend said it made it easier to get them clean that way. I suppose it worked - I always got em clean.... enjoy Mike PS. Pretty quite around here lately huh?? Guess everybody's got the last minute crazies!!

joeb33050
12-22-2009, 06:45 AM
His name was Franklin, not Francis. Unless there's a Francis who did a lot of CB work.
I know everything about cleaning cast bullet gun barrels. I learned it here. Barrel/load combinations vary greatly in cleaning requirements. Some shooters don't clean guns ever, others clean infrequently, yet others clean every 10-15 shots.
Shooters use an enormously broad range of solvents to clean cast bullet guns, ranging from the expensive bottles of cleaners such as Hoppe's #9 to Ed's Red to Marvel Mystery Oil to alcohol or paint thinner to Kroil to ATF to water. Yes, water. Does a good job.
I have never, that's NEVER, seen any test data for cleaning frequency vs. accuracy with cast bullets.
I tested Ed's Red vs. Marvel Mystery Oil over a long period of time, and found no advantage to the Ed's Red.
I have used patches cut from paper towels for ~ 2 years now, after hearing how the paper will wear the bore. No problems so far.
I shoot low velocity cast bullets, so high velocity results are outside my experience and may require different cleaning materials or procedures.
Some would interpret what's written above as the notion that "all guns are a rule unto themselves". I disagree, and believe that like bullet lubes, it just doesn't matter much what you use or how.
Merry Christmas or whatever you celebrate
joe b.

Bret4207
12-22-2009, 08:01 AM
Joe is right, it was Dr Franklin Mann, not Francis. But I disagree about fouling. I believe on some gun and load combinations fouling has an effect. What the effect is varies, but some guns seem to do better with a fouling of the lube used when you change lubes and some seem to need a fouled barrel to do their best work.

RogerWatsonfromIdaho
12-22-2009, 10:03 AM
Stephen,

... a solvent cleaning follows.

Which solvent do you use?

Roger

44man
12-22-2009, 10:48 AM
I can only talk about my revolvers with cast. I have tested many lubes and never cleaned between them because any change a lube made in groups or POI showed up with the first shot. I found a clean barrel does not matter much with my revolvers but before hunting just one shot is enough to foul and get rid of oil or solvent left in the bore. I usually leave my barrels dry after cleaning because they are stainless.
I have never believed in "conditioning" a bore by shooting 20 or 50 shots first because a good lube will keep fouling soft and fouling shoots out with the next shot so that it never builds up any more then the first shot left behind, even a good BP lube will do the same with BP but they can go south fast with weather conditions. Not so with smokeless.
Leading is a different story and it must be cured.
Alox smokes and burns in the bore so I think it will leave more and more fouling buildup because it is too dry. (Ash.)
Any lube that leaves a grease ring on the muzzle will work fine all day.
I can clean a revolver and go shoot the same groups that I get with a dirty gun shot for 6 months. I clean when the cylinder pin starts to get too dirty but sometimes I only clean and lube the pin, the heck with the rest of the gun.
Now my single shots or rifles shooting bullets have to be shot ONCE before hunting or target shooting because the first shot will miss from a clean bore. Changing the friction coefficient is the culprit.
IMHO, if your boolit fits, does not lead the bore, you have a good lube and tailor the alloy to the initial chamber pressure, you should be able to shoot all day without touching the bore and just maybe, shoot all year. If anything is wrong, you need a cleaning rod.
Lead or copper buildup will be the worst enemy.
All of my revolvers in the safe are FILTHY and I know for a fact that I can take any one of them and center a pop can at 100 yards from bags or Creedmore, or to drop a deer off hand at 100, the ONLY thing to cause a miss is ME.
I learned a lot shooting muzzle loaders most of my life. I could shoot over 200 rounds at a match with TIGHT balls and thick patches like a .450 ball and .010" patch in a .45 or a .535 ball and a .022" patch in a .54. Using the right lube I NEVER wiped the bore but was still able to hit chickens off hand at 200 meters because bore condition never changed all day. The lube was the secret. So I applied that to revolvers and it works.
Do I have to say again how much I HATE Alox? [smilie=f:

stephen perry
12-22-2009, 11:45 AM
So what I got the book you got the name.

For all you generic correct cleaning dudes business as usual.

Roger most times I use Old Hoppes I get from Bruno. I like Shooters Choice and I have a Home Brew.

Home Brew

1 64 oz glass bottle.
3 cans 15 oz GM Top Engine
1 Kroil 8 oz
Fill Remainder of bottle with White Household Ammonia.
Blend Well.
Fill 1/2 full 4 oz bottles when Needed.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

leadman
12-22-2009, 12:11 PM
Some guns do require more than one shot to get the boolit going to the right place.
I have a Contender carbine in 30-30, a lightweight 21" barrel.

With the hunting load of 28grs. of H4895 and a 311041 it takes 3 shots to come to the point of impact it will maintain. At 100 yards the first shot lands approx. 4" to the right with the 2 next moving to the left.

I am going to try different lubes and see what happens. I am now using LBT Blue Soft.

44man
12-22-2009, 01:13 PM
Some guns do require more than one shot to get the boolit going to the right place.
I have a Contender carbine in 30-30, a lightweight 21" barrel.

With the hunting load of 28grs. of H4895 and a 311041 it takes 3 shots to come to the point of impact it will maintain. At 100 yards the first shot lands approx. 4" to the right with the 2 next moving to the left.

I am going to try different lubes and see what happens. I am now using LBT Blue Soft.
Yes, my 30-30 Contender was the same with cast but I have not noticed enough with revolvers to worry about. But then again, I did not have a good lube when I had the Contender. My lube was too hard back then.
It still depends on everything you do and use as to what your gun will do.

stephen perry
12-22-2009, 04:52 PM
I do as you do after a days shooting. After a days shooting whether it be my BR gun or a Range gun I run 2 wet patches of old Hoppes and take the guns home. Sometimes I clean same day sometimes not. When I do clean I start with 2 more wet patches let soak 15-20 minutes. Then I brush with a bronze brush leaving the wet patch solvent in ftom before. I do this to use the powder fouling as a mild abrasive along with brush action. I brush twice leaving everything in for another 15-20 minutes. First patch is a dry patch next several patches are alcohol patches. I dry patch next till I get a reasonably clean patch and then patch out the chamber. Next I use my Siebert bore scope and inspect the lands and grooves ahead of the chamber.

I do a double cleaning same procedures a couple days later if feel my groups need some help. I run solvent saturated patches of ISSO or JB in the barrel. What I'm going after is Powder fouling. I use Sweets to check for coppering but if Cast I skip this step. Last when I am content I have done my best to give my barrels a chance to perform I run 2 patches of old Hoppes and put them away. Before I go shoot again I run the alcohol patches to remove the Hoppes. I leave the barrels dry feeling the cast lube or the lube I leave on after pointing up my jacketed will lube the barrel. Must be doing something right all my barrels 60+ shoot well.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima