Another shooter sprayed from side of my .44 Mag

[ghh3rd]

As I was making ready to leave the range today, I had a fellow ask me what type of revolver I had been shooting (it was my SBH .44). I didn't notice him, but apparently he was shooting at the next bench.

He said that several times he was hit in the side of his face by something as I shot, although not enough to hurt him. He said it wasn't lead, because it wasn't hot.

I figure that it must have been some Felix lube from the tumble lube boolits spraying from the cylinder gap. Next time out, I'll have to remember to set up something to trap some of it for inspection.

Randy

[MT Gianni]

Odd but it would be nice to know if the cylinders are aligned. Lead, unburnt powder or lube are all possible.

[Shiloh]

It wouldn't be the first time that has happened to me either. Both lube and shaved lead.

SHiloh

[243winxb]

Check the gap between the cylinder and barrel with a feeler gauge. Should measure between .004" to a max of.009" from
what i understand.

[JSnover]

How are your targets? I had a .357 that was out of time. Along with spitting lead it would keyhole every 5th or 6th round.

[docone31]

I have had both my Dan Wesson, and Ruger SuperBlack Hawk be out of time.
In both cases, they sprayed. It showed up at the IMHSA matches.

[Ekalb2000]

I dont mean to hijack the thread, but since the out of time subject came up, how does one go about checking and putting a revolver back in time?

[docone31]

That was simple,
I went to Monson Mass to Dan Wesson. They took my pistol, gave me a cup of coffee and brought it back. While it was there, I also had a trigger job done.
Wonderful.
I later went to Bridgeport Conn. Ruger just plain took care of it. In and out painlessly.
Both times a great experience.

[lwknight]

Check your forcing cone too. A lead build-up can cause peeling or splattering..
I have a SW29 that peeled copper out the side and even cut a guy next to me. I took it to a gunsmith and had a Ruger forcing cone cut into it and solved the problem. I also ended up with a superior shooting revolveer.

[mrbill2]

"He said it wasn't lead, because it wasn't hot."
Curious, is lead hot when it sprays out between the cylinder gap?

[beagle]

My shooting partner has a SBH like that and it spits shavings. Not every time but occasionally. Send it back to Ruger. Needs timing and tightening up./beagle

[lwknight]

I would think that sprayed lead would be very hot. The lead deposits around the steel plate targets look like they were liquid when they built up. It sticks together like its soldered.

[jdgabbard]

I sure would look into it. Its kinda like a car. The little things turn into big things. And not to mention the safety issues with the shooters near you.

[243winxb]

Are you shooting big fat oversize bullets to fill you cylinder throat? Anything larger than .430" could be shaving lead on the forceing cone.

[1Shirt]

My brother had a 29Smith that had one chamber of his cylinder that was just slightly off center. Was sitting next to him when he shot off the bench one day, and got hit in the forehead by a small half moon of lead shaving that stuch in my skin, and drew a bit of blood when I pulled it out. Got my attention. It shot ok and was accruate except for that one chamber, and that was one that he kept empty under the hammer. Never had much use for Smith's after that.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[pjh421]

I had a Python like that but sold it before I got around to fixing it. It was stolen from the guy I sold it to. S/N E47499 if anyone runs across it. Seems like after enough shooting like that the forcing cone could crack or break off a piece where its thinnest.

Paul

[machinisttx]

I dont mean to hijack the thread, but since the out of time subject came up, how does one go about checking and putting a revolver back in time?

Fit and install a new hand to correct slow timing.

[AZ-Stew]

Once when I was young and inexperienced, I used a vertical post that was holding up the range roof cover for a rest, placing my left hand on the post and then using that hand to help support my M-28 Smith. The loads were high-end, using 2400 powder. Part of my left hand was even with the cylinder face. When I fired the revolver I got a blast of gas and powder particles on my left hand where my index finger joins the palm. I ended up with about half a dozen powder particles embedded in the skin. The revolver was properly timed, I was just stupid for putting my hand near the cylinder face.

My point is, it wasn't necessarily a lead shaving that hit the guy. It may have been a powder particle, and there may be nothing at all wrong with your revolver. When I train new shooters I always tell them to get shooting glasses with side shields. I had a guy shoot a revolver next to me one time that spit something out the side. It went behind my nifty looking Bushnell Aviator Style (no side shields), amber lens shooting glasses and embed itself in the skin just below my eye. 3/4 of an inch higher and it would have been in my cornea. I didn't blame the gun, I blamed my poor choice of shooting glasses.

Regards,

Stew

[44man]

As long as the chambers are OK up and down, the timing must be corrected by shifting the cylinder latch sideways. Very few revolvers depend on the hand to hold the cylinder in position and it makes no difference if the latch is off. Changing the hand does not fix anything.
Those guns that have one chamber out of time with the rest OK will need a new cylinder.

[mike in co]

It wouldn't be the first time that has happened to me either. Both lube and shaved lead.

SHiloh

in a good tight revolver i would go with powder.

poor quality, worn revolvers may have timing issues that lead to shaving/spiting.

????
mik ein co

[454PB]

While a timing or alignment problem can cause this, I agree with AZ-Stew. All revolvers discharge high pressure gas, lube, and particles of unburned powder at the barrel/cylinder gap.

There's no way to get a perfect seal for the pressures involved without fitting the cylinder so tightly that it will bind once the gun warms and begins to build fouling.

[wallenba]

My 45 Colt BH occasionally hits me in the cheek (left side only) with a tiny stinging particle that I have not been able to capture. Thought it might be some unburned powder or residue from the lube (Clays and orange magic). Now I'm really thinking it's an alignment problem since to hit on point of aim the rear sight is cranked way over to the right compared to most of my guns. Any one have a Ruger that needs that much adjustment? The forcing cone shows no obvious signs of lead shaving or build-up.

[Phat Man Mike]

While a timing or alignment problem can cause this, I agree with AZ-Stew. All revolvers discharge high pressure gas, lube, and particles of unburned powder at the barrel/cylinder gap.

There's no way to get a perfect seal for the pressures involved without fitting the cylinder so tightly that it will bind once the gun warms and begins to build fouling.

I thought those M/N revolvers sealed up pretty good:shock: guess I learn some thing every day!!![smilie=w:

[Bass Ackward]

It's a revolver for goodness sakes. There could be something or nothing wrong.

EVERY revolver is misaligned to a degree on every chamber. Even a line bored cylinder has to have .001 or .002 slop in the notch to allow it to enter for this to occur. Plus, there has to be slop in the frame slot to allow free and speed motion of the cylinder stop too. That's more slop.

SA Rugers tend to run about .004 -.008. That means that until that gun shoots enough rounds to shoot in it's own Taylor throat over that ....slop range, every cylinder can / will be in misalignment every once in awhile. Ruger generally cuts in a slight taper, (Taylor) in their barrels the degree of which can vary. Works wonders if they don't crush it out of existence when they put the barrel on.

The trend to have something spit will be worse for light bullets too. How can that be?

As a cylinder is on one extreme of the notch a bullet begins to exit hitting the forcing cone. The cylinder begins to rotate toward the other side permitting alignment. Since the slug is short, eventually enough bearing area passes and because the cylinder has mass and is in motion, it continues to rotate to the other extreme as the base breaks the seal on the cylinder face unevenly thus spitting. Shooting bore sized bullets will allow this more than throat sized slugs that will FORCE alignment better, but also cause more wear.

Ever hear the one about shooting the heaviest bullets per caliber?

After it breaks in, the bullet exits without moving the cylinder anywhere across the range of the notches it is resting in and there will be little stress on the gun. But .... the heavier the slugs you shoot, the longer the cone will eventually become. Just picture the angles required in your mind.

But you can have buildup occur in your forcing cone that finally breaks off and clears under the pressure of round number ______. Happens to line bore ones too. Got a mark on the hood of my car to prove it.

So end the myth, there is no such thing as a revolver with perfect alignment or the stop could not enter the notch. Every revolver will spit occasionally. Ever wonder why Tailoring improves accuracy so much? Tailoring is a machined in version of a shot in throat.

Then you can believe that powder gases ate that metal away lengthening your cone. :grin:

[Shuz]

All revolvers will occasionally spit powder,or lube or lead particles. A good "rule of thumb" is to ALWAYS stand behind, and never directly beside someone shooting a revolver. Another good idea is to buy, or make outta plastic milk jugs, sideshields that can be attached to your shooting glasses.

[geargnasher]

34,000 psi through a .005-010" gap = sidespitter. Comes with the territory. As has been neatly said yours may be excessive or it may be normal, no way for us to tell without being there.

Revolver etiquette (Gear's rule #3) dictates one observe and properly warn insufficiently protected bystanders of potential injury. Same goes for pelting the guy on your right at the public range bench with hot brass from an autoloader.

Just the way I see it.

Gear

[Jayhem]

I have never seen a revolver that didn't spray....that's how they function. That gap between cylinder face and barrel is never sealed off from gas escape.

[Bucks Owin]

As an aside, the face of my old "Shooting Chrony" is so splattered with lube and unburned powder that it's hard to read at times, and I'm considering a printer for it! There's a lot of junk flying around from a sixgun discharging that you rarely see. As was mentioned, keep hands/fingers away from that B/C gap!.....FWIW, Dennis (BTW, good post BA!)

[44man]

It's a revolver for goodness sakes. There could be something or nothing wrong.

EVERY revolver is misaligned to a degree on every chamber. Even a line bored cylinder has to have .001 or .002 slop in the notch to allow it to enter for this to occur. Plus, there has to be slop in the frame slot to allow free and speed motion of the cylinder stop too. That's more slop.

SA Rugers tend to run about .004 -.008. That means that until that gun shoots enough rounds to shoot in it's own Taylor throat over that ....slop range, every cylinder can / will be in misalignment every once in awhile. Ruger generally cuts in a slight taper, (Taylor) in their barrels the degree of which can vary. Works wonders if they don't crush it out of existence when they put the barrel on.

The trend to have something spit will be worse for light bullets too. How can that be?

As a cylinder is on one extreme of the notch a bullet begins to exit hitting the forcing cone. The cylinder begins to rotate toward the other side permitting alignment. Since the slug is short, eventually enough bearing area passes and because the cylinder has mass and is in motion, it continues to rotate to the other extreme as the base breaks the seal on the cylinder face unevenly thus spitting. Shooting bore sized bullets will allow this more than throat sized slugs that will FORCE alignment better, but also cause more wear.

Ever hear the one about shooting the heaviest bullets per caliber?

After it breaks in, the bullet exits without moving the cylinder anywhere across the range of the notches it is resting in and there will be little stress on the gun. But .... the heavier the slugs you shoot, the longer the cone will eventually become. Just picture the angles required in your mind.

But you can have buildup occur in your forcing cone that finally breaks off and clears under the pressure of round number ______. Happens to line bore ones too. Got a mark on the hood of my car to prove it.

So end the myth, there is no such thing as a revolver with perfect alignment or the stop could not enter the notch. Every revolver will spit occasionally. Ever wonder why Tailoring improves accuracy so much? Tailoring is a machined in version of a shot in throat.

Then you can believe that powder gases ate that metal away lengthening your cone. :grin:
How many shots does it take to show off center wear or a lengthening of a forcing cone?
You keep saying that but I just used the brass, polishing forcing cone tool on my SBH just to clean the fouling off and I see a super nice, even forcing cone after close to 57,000 heavy rounds. I have cleaned and inspected all of my revolver forcing cones and have yet to see any changes.
How does a Tailor throat improve accuracy when the boolit is going faster when it hits the rifling so it can skid more?
I don't buy throat erosion in a revolver that incurs in a high pressure rifle unless the .460, etc will cause it. After nearly 60 years of shooting and working with revolvers, I have never seen the forcing cone get longer, wear off center or the rifling get eroded.
Now maybe a super tight Freedom might have a problem because there is zero play in the cylinder but none I have worked with has shown wallowed out forcing cones.
Since powder gas and temperature does the damage to throats, how do you say a lead boolit can damage a revolver?

[Bucks Owin]

My 45 Colt BH occasionally hits me in the cheek (left side only) with a tiny stinging particle that I have not been able to capture. Thought it might be some unburned powder or residue from the lube (Clays and orange magic). Now I'm really thinking it's an alignment problem since to hit on point of aim the rear sight is cranked way over to the right compared to most of my guns. Any one have a Ruger that needs that much adjustment? The forcing cone shows no obvious signs of lead shaving or build-up. My pre warning NM .45 BH has the same issue, the front sight lists to starboard a little so my rear sight is cranked quite a ways to the right. "Someday" maybe I'll send it home to Ruger and have the barrel aligned better and an ACP cyl fitted. In the meantime, it doesn't really affect anything except my sensibilities! [smilie=l: Dennis

[ghh3rd]

Is there a good way to trap any debris (powder etc) for a visual inspection? Maybe I should hang some flypaper around the shooting bench :-)

[jbc]

Is there a good way to trap any debris (powder etc) for a visual inspection? Maybe I should hang some flypaper around the shooting bench :-)

fly paper not necessary just hang a piece of plain white notebook paper beside the gun when firing - you will be surprised at how much junk flies out and hits the paper - just be carefull it's not too close or you might catch it on fire:oops:

[Bass Ackward]

1. How many shots does it take to show off center wear or a lengthening of a forcing cone?
You keep saying that but I just used the brass, polishing forcing cone tool on my SBH just to clean the fouling off and I see a super nice, even forcing cone after close to 57,000 heavy rounds. I have cleaned and inspected all of my revolver forcing cones and have yet to see any changes.

2. How does a Tailor throat improve accuracy when the boolit is going faster when it hits the rifling so it can skid more?

3. Since powder gas and temperature does the damage to throats, how do you say a lead boolit can damage a revolver?


1. You are on record here as saying that you forcing cone was lengthening and the barrel could use being set back. Just realize that most of the initial forcing cone that is cut is non-functional decoration only. The one that wears in is the "true" forcing cone. You polished the decorative one that performs no function.

2. You are also on record saying that a revolver is just as accurate as a rifle no matter how far a bullet has to jump until it hits the rifling. The only difference is the hardness required to survive the impact. Actually bullet design plays a big part too, but that is your statement.

To answer you specifically, lets take really low velocity and pressure so that that is removed from the equation. I have a 625 that has about 3200 rounds that went from a bore diameter of .4505 to .452 now. Actually it went to .452 around 1200 rounds or so and has stabilized. So I don't expect more for awhile. The forcing cone funnel area slugs about .455 today and is sort of a bent hot dog shaped which is rational since the cylinder rotates around a radius. That's 20 BHN and 4% antimony. Harder bullets cut faster than soft. Faster more than slower. Worse alignment conditions than better.

Smiths are not cut out (Taylored) like Rugers are, or were, (I haven't had one in years to know if they still are) so you see it more and sooner there. Plus double actions generally have more slop in the notches because they may be fired faster in double action mode and they MUST guarantee lock up. Single action is generally a slow fire episode and generally tighter. (if made properly)

Also consider that while you are wearing in a new cone, you are also shooting the gun lose mechanically. This happens until a compromise / balance is established. Then barrel wear slows. But metal that needs to be removed will be removed fairly rapidly. And a gun won't shoot until it has. Some people consider the new cone as shooting in a taper to the bore. So it depends on how you define it.

I had a SA Ruger 44 misaligned and the cylinder was pointing up under pressure. A common reason that contributes to why the single action rises so much. It wore it's new forcing cone thin on the top of the barrel and it cracked using 23 grains of 296 that it had shot for decades. (the only load I ever used back then) Round count was @ 50k. It has been redone and is now line bored. Alignment was corrected when a larger base pin was installed and the barrel location slightly changed. It has almost zero wear in it's new configuration. I had another Ruger fail in the same round count area that was rebuilt and now to a relative.

The real reason for line boring is not to build a "more accurate" gun, but a gun that is accurate sooner and for a longer period of time because of less wear.