45-70 light cast bullets in 1:20 twist?

[SCHUETZENBOOMER]

I am working up light loads in my H&R Buffalo Rifle(1:20 twist) using the Lyman 457122 mold (330gr with hollow point/350 without). Anyone else shooting lighter cast bullets in a 20" twist with good results?

[KCSO]

You won't have any problem with that twist at hunting ranges, say to 300 yards or so. The trapdoor was a 1-22 twist and my Sharps is a 1-18 twist and both will shoot under 3" at 100 yards withh iron sights.

[SCHUETZENBOOMER]

With what bullet weight to get those groups at 100? I am specifically asking for light bullets. I would consider 350gr and under as light for the 45-70.

[Freightman]

I have shot a 300 in my Shiloh and a M1867 Rolling block with good results, I even tried a 265gr with mixed results but the 300 does fine. The Shiloh has a 1-18 twist and the best I can tell the 1867 RB has a 1-26 twist.

[Bullshop]

I have patched up 200gn .451"SWC's and shot them in a trap door. At 25 yards I could pick the head off a grouse. I have an old Ideal mold for a .457"180gn (pure lead) hollow base boolit that we use to make 45/70's shoot like 22's. The old Ideal boolit has more bearing surface than the 200gn SWC though.
BIC/BS

[JSnover]

Try 21.0 grains of SR4759. Very mild target load that actually did group 2" at 100 yds in my Buff Classic rifle with a 350 grain cast boolit.

[canuck4570]

my ruger no 1 is 1/20
and I shoot the saeco 300 gr bullet no GC with 10 gr of trail boss
group at 100 yard stay 1 to 1 1/2 all day
great for plinking and economical

[chuebner]

I cast the Lee 405 HB and 340 PB for my friend for his Buff Classic. 20gr. of SR4759 will keep 2-3" groups at 100yd.

charlie

[John Boy]

Anyone else shooting lighter cast bullets in a 20" twist with good results?
Every 45-70,45-90 and 45-75 that I own has a 1:20 twist. The lightest bullet that I use with accuracy to a maximum distance of 300yds (MOA or close to it) is a 350gr bullet. Past that distance - out to 1000yds, the bullets of choice are 500+ gr bullets ... even in my H&R, all black powder for accurate groups (20" or better at 1000yds)

And if you are looking for 'light loads' to reduce felt recoil, you a missing a real treat by not shooting the heavier grain bullets
Will the H&R Buffalo Classic Shoot 1000 Yards? Yep! (http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,119506.0.html)

[SCHUETZENBOOMER]

John Boy,
Reading your post gave me chills. Starting at about 12 years old, I was reading everything I could get my hands on regarding long range and Schuetzen style shooting. Seems like I never had the $$ for a HighWall or Ballard. THough I have been shooting all my life, I never realized my dream of longrange. Now at 50 and still lacking the $$ for the real thing, I decided to build a poormans schuetzen off the Buffalo Classic topped with the Malcolm 6x. My plan is to shoot as many thousands of the 330's/1000fps teeth as it takes to gain some degree of offhand proficiency at which point I will step up the loads and bullet weights. Many of us must have hatched in the same nest....I have the 38-55 Target rifle still in the box that I plan on setting up with vernier and globe. Just to prove how hopelessly addicted I am, I am designing a Pope style false muzzle and bullet starter for the 45-70.

Thanx to all for the great posts and continued motivation! Keep 'em coming.

[John Boy]

Boomer, your real lucky to be 50 and have the itch. I got into BPCR in 2003 - guess that's when I was 61. My 1st BPCR SS was the H&R, the BC and Target Model 38-55 barrels.
True story, the bullet in the provided tread is a bullet that was ill designed for long range. In fact, one could only 'pack' 53gr of FFg into the 45-70 case. My very first trip to the range with my 1st used BPCR, the BC with 20 reloads of the Big Lube 500gr loaded with 52 grs of Triple Seven. Fifteen rounds at 100yds trying to get a vernier setting. With 5 rounds left went to our club's 600yd range. Guessing off my trajectory table, I put 153 MOA on the staff and rapid fired the last 5 rounds. Two club members were on the line watching and we went to the pit to have a look see.
Three of us witnessed a group I have never been able to duplicate, with any of my subsequent rifles ... 3 holes one could cover with a silver dollar and a 5 shot group of 2 1/14 x 7" ... with an H&R and NO CAMERA!

My 38-55 barrel has been a Closet Queen. My advice is have the chamber reamed to accept a true 38-55 reload with a 380 base cause H&R cut the chambers for 375 jacket bullets. Then buy the re-make of the Ideal 375166 mold, cast up some 1:20's and load the cases with 42 grs of FFg.
Here's a thread with targets shooting the H&R 38-55 with Lyman 378674 bullets and where to buy the 375166 mold ... http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=34651

And out a HighWall, here's what the Ideal 375166 can do, and I mean ... Do!
First Range Test - the 38-55 Ideal 375166 (http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13911&highlight=375166)

Green Mountain made both barrels for the H&R and there is no doubt the rifles will shoot 'nasty' groups! ;) :smile:

Boomer - enjoy your rifle and let us all know how you make out making the false muzzle. That has been a passionate desire of mine

[SCHUETZENBOOMER]

JohnBoy,

Your post and attached links made my weekend!

This is the stuff I live for. I am all ears as far as suggestions on chamber dims for the 38-55. I have been doing chamber work for 20 years and years ago developed my "Perfect10".....a set of cartridges ranging from 6mm to .375 all based on the 7x57 parent cartridge with the Ackley shoulder. It all started after I chambered my first customer rifle in a .257Robert's Ackley Improved. It was nothng short of a phenominal cartridge. I felt that there was more potential yet so rechambered one for myself moving the shoulder forward another 2mm. All my cases are based on this premise. All have the exact same shoulder height. I'll post a pic when I find one. The .330GP and .375GP were my favorites from day one and the "new" Hornady rounds prove I was right on track. These two offerings filled a BIG hole in the cartridge market. More proof that a contingent of "big-bore" fans still exist. Wish I had been more proactive in marketing 20 years ago! I have thousands of rounds thru the .250GP, 6.5GP, .330GP, 350GP and .375GP. Ackley knew what he was doing with cartridge design....the std deviation on several of these 10-shot loads are single digits.

[SCHUETZENBOOMER]

Just got back from a fun afternoon of shooting the Buffalo Classic. 27 degrees and no wind. As noted the loads were Unique and the Lyman 457122 350gr.(w/o the hollow point)

Halfway thru the session I got my best yet group and thought I was finally onto something! Wrong.......that would have been way to easy. Pic "A" shows my first group. This group and all succeeding groups in the top half of the sheet(with two groups per sheet) were shot with the front rest located exactly under the forend screw. Rear rest was a Caldwell bag. These loads were identical except incrementally increasing powder by 1/2 grain as noted. Notice the cloverleaf just to the right of "E". Those (3) shots were successive shots with the next two 1 o'clock high. Group "B" and all succeeding groups in the lower half of the sheet were shot with the rest under the very front of the receiver with the bag almost touching the front of the trigger bow. I got excited when I shot this group. My excitement quickly ebbed as I shot the remaining (4) groups.

I would appreciate any feedback from you folks as to patterns that you may see that I have missed? I am about ready to give up on these 350 grainers.....then these cloverleafs sneak in......?

[Shooter6br]

I use 4759 with 350g Ranch Dog. I use between 23 and 24.5( I use Lee dippers since the powder "bridges" with my BR-30 measure. No wad or filler 23 g is 1188 fps is my 22 in barrel 26 g is 1350 fps

[JSnover]

Got some veretical stringing there. Check your breathing, make sure the rest is under the same spot under the rifle every time. Might also help to orient the powder by raising the muzzle and giving a light pat on the receiver to settle the charge into the bottom of the case before every shot.

[bubba.50]

i got 1in groups @ 75yds w/my buff classic using as cast 340gr boolits from a lee mold using 25gr 4759 and blackpowder lube. for what it's worth, bubba. good luck and merry christmas to you.

[Jeffery8mm]

Boomer, I toldja those 457122 were the bomb in the 45-70. did you get to 13gr of unique??
Jeff

[SCHUETZENBOOMER]

Jeffery8mm,

I am not there yet, not even close.....with the exception of Group "B" these are 3 1/2" groups at 60 yards. Group "B" tell me that something was right. The rest tell me I need to figure out what. It will take cloverleafs at 100 before I am happy.

Indications a couple of times was that groups were tightening up as I increased charges(velocity)...until that 11gr group had the audacity to show face.

I will load (10)ea of 12 1/2gr and 13gr for the next session of church.

[John Boy]

Boomer. I replied on this thread instead of in the Group Buy because your Q's are not related to the Group Buy of the Ideal 375166
A few questions:


I have yet to do a chamber cast on the H&R 38-55. What would you consider "ideal" chamber/throat clearances/lengths for the Lyman 375166? Though it has been a few years, I have worked exclusively with Dave Manson for my custom reamers. He has never let me down.
Just ask him for the standard 38-55 match reamer and your bullet bases are 380 - he'll know which on
What brass are you using?
Starline
Are you happy with the consistancy of this brass?
Of course, otherwise I wouldn't use Starline to reload using about 2000+ Starline cases
How are you resizing after fireforming?
Neck expander only
Smokeless or Black powder?
Original Gunpowder
Why does Starline offer 38-55 brass in (2) lenghts?
Because with the antiques and the new rifles, ther are 2 differnent chamber lengths. The 2.125 will work fine in the H&R. Tell Manson this also if you plan to use the 2.125's. He'll know what to do

[405]

Looks like you're having fun! That's what it's all about.:)
I shoot quite a few of these type loads/twists you're interested in. Namely, two 45-75s and three 45-70s that REQUIRE the lighter bullets and loads. I'll leave the 300 yard and beyond launching for other guns/loads better suited for the purpose.

The best I've found in the class of loads I believe fall within your objectives are:

300 - 325 gr. GAS-CHECKED bullet (the RCBS 300 FNGC is ideal for this!)
19-21 gr. 5744 with low density dacron filler (about .5 - .75 gr)
Or- I can substitute blackpowder in these loads for equally good results...

If the bullets are sized correctly for the bore (.001 larger than groove) and kept at about 11-14 BHN.... I can shoot with minimal leading, minimal recoil and maintain accuracy commensurate with the gun and sights up to 100 yards.

The chronograph which has nothing to do with how much recoil and may only have indirect relationship with accuracy in these loads shows some of the lowest velocity SDs I find in ANY of my low vel/low pressure cast bullet shooting.... many times averaging SDs in the 5-7 range.

[SCHUETZENBOOMER]

BINGO 405!

This is exactly the kind of info I am looking for. I have NO experience with 5744, any hints? What type and make of blackpowder. Any BP substitutes? Any good results with non-GC teeth?

By the way......I am having a ball with this stuff! Victory will be sweet.

[405]

No reason the plain base types can't be made to shoot well with smokeless with not much leading. It just takes more luck and/or time and piddling/working with loads to get there. I've found with non-gas-checked designs over smokeless a few general rules of thumb can help. Flat, plain-based is best. Low velocity is best. Softer alloy to start. A slightly softer lube helps. For the alloy, maybe BHN 8-10 to start then try 11-14. There are bores and then there are bores so a good bore to begin with helps a bunch. Unfortunately, we're all stuck with the bores we have so have to work thru all the variables and imperfections. Once in a while a bore just won't work then it's decision time :(

Blackpowder is the original for these type cartridges so lots of info out there about using it. A few things.... cleaning blackpowder is not more difficult than cleaning smokeless. Shooting blackpowder does build troublesome fouling so has to be managed.... soft blackpowder type lube helps and for absolute best accuracy swabbing between shots is called for with something like a mix of Ballistol and water. After shooting, the brass has to be cleaned.... using something like hot soapy water. It's not hard to do with a little tub in a sink and a small test tube or bottle brush.

The bore doesn't require the strong solvents common with smokeless... just keep pushing jagged patches thru soaked with Ballistol and water mix or just soapy water until clean then a light coating of oil as per usual. In some ways easier than some smokeless cleaning. If there is any leading, that is where the real work is.... but seems more common to get leading problems with smokeless than with BP.... probably has to do with higher pressures and velocities with smokeless.

As for BP loads... really pretty easy. FFg is commonly used. I quit the substitutes over 30 years ago and only use BP in both BPCR and muzzleloaders.

Figure where you need to seat the bullet in the case. Add to that length the thickness of a hard fiber card wad... commonly .030-.060" thick. (The wad seems to help plain base bullets by giving some protection to the base in BP loads- the 100% load density of BP allows easy addtition of hard fiber wads..... not so with smokeless low load density loads). That seating depth in the case neck is where the BP is filled to.... plus a smidgeon of BP more so that when the bullet is seated to the OAL there will be a little compression to the powder (<.1" is common). I know the original 45-70 cartridge designation calls for 70 grains of BP. It's very difficult to get that much in a case so no worries when you come up with a load column height and it only allows say 55 grains of BP. In some ways all the better for lower recoil and less fouling :).

5744.... somewhat similar to IMR 4759. These are fairly bulky, low density, large grained, fairly fast burning powders that lend themselves to low velocity/low pressure loads to better duplicate black powder type ballistics. There is quite a bit of data available for both. Lyman 48th and 49th editions have data as does Accurate. One symptom of burning 5744 for low pressure straight-walled cast bullet loads are the unburned kernals of powder it leaves. Use to bug me no end until I figured out it doesn't hurt anything and is only a "cosmetic" nuisance :)