WC 820 help

[RayinNH]

Let me start off by saying that I've used WC820 for several years in the .44 Special with great results. A load off 11.9 grs. behind a 240-250 gr Keith style boolits is very accurate and predictable. I've always treated it like AA#9 for load data.

The problem has arisen with the .357 mag. There again I've consulted Accurates load data. For a 158gr. lead boolit they suggest using 12.2-13.5 grs. of powder. I chose as a first load to use 12.6 grs simply because one of the Lee auto disks dispensed that quantity. Upon shooting, some of the loads went off as expected, potent and typical recoil. Some went off with a boom and a good sized fireball and not too much recoil. Others, only the primer went off and lodged the boolit anywhere from 1-3 inches down the tube and had to be beat out off the barrel. The ones that had to be forcibly removed had the powder compressed into a powder pellet either at the end of the cylinder or behind the boolit.

At this point accuracy was suffering because I never knew if they would go off normally or not. I tried tilting the gun barrel both up and down to position the powder forward or back but to no avail. So the ignition is erratic but I don't know if I need to up the charge or crimp harder or what? Out of the 50 rounds, 7 had to get the brass rod treatment to remove them. I did however get 7 nice barrel slugs.:-D

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance...Ray

[Scrounger]

Could well be a bad lot of primers. Easiest thing to check would be to try a different lot or brand. Personally, I wouldn't use CCI primers if they gave them to me. Could be contaminated or damp powder, too.

[Buckshot]

.................Same powder out of the same can does that? I'd confirm a good solid grip on the boolit, then confirm a nice crimp rolled in. Last would be the primer unless they were REALLY crappy you shouldn't see that.

I confess that this is not form my own experience but from Dean Grennel. He'd loaded some 44 mags to test some new bullets. He said he had a crimp on'em like a rabid weasel. They did all manner of weirdness like you're describing. Come to find out he said you could grab the bullet and turn it in the case. There was simply way less casegrip then he'd desired :-). The crimp was wonderous, but the casegrip was limp.

He decanted the loads, re-sized the brass, and reloaded. This time they all went off with the same energetic recoil and noise he'd expected. His lesson was that a good crimp is neat, but if the case isn't also getting a grip on the slug it just isn't going to work. He was using either H110 or 2400, I forget now.

...............Buckshot

[RayinNH]

Jeez, I thought I covered all bases in my post but about 15 minutes after posting and killing the computer for the night I realized I didn't mention primers. The primers are Winchester WSP (non mag). The primers are from the same brick I've been using right along with no problems. The crimp die is still set the same as I've been using with other powders. I still have 50 more loaded so a tighter crimp will be a simple solution. I really hate to think I have to pull them all down. No shooting today but some night this week I'll try them and post back results...Ray

[Junior1942]

I had the same problem with my 44 SBH, and mag primers cured it. WC820 is hard to ignite in medium loads, especially in a revolver with a pressure-robbing cylinder gap.

[Bodydoc447]

I had the same problem with some Ruger-only .45 colt loads. The switch to magnum primer resulted in complete success. Try switching to a magnum primer and see if that doesn't solve the problem.

Doc

[9.3X62AL]

Another vote for magnum caps with slow-for-pistols ball powders like WW-296, H-110, AA-9, and WC-820. I always use magnum primers with these fuels, and always load them near full potential and high density. One exception is the 10mm, where LP primers do fine work with AA-9 and WC-820.

[454PB]

I agree on the magnum primers, but I think Buckshot is on to something. I've used buckets full of WC820 and never had it act as you've described. I have had H-110 do those tricks!

[Dale53]

>>>I confess that this is not form my own experience but from Dean Grennel. He'd loaded some 44 mags to test some new bullets. He said he had a crimp on'em like a rabid weasel. They did all manner of weirdness like you're describing. Come to find out he said you could grab the bullet and turn it in the case. There was simply way less casegrip then he'd desired . The crimp was wonderous, but the casegrip was limp.<<<

Years ago, when H110 first came on the market, I had that same experience with my .44 using C&H .44 Special dies. Investigation showed that the bullets had little or no case neck tension. The answer was a tight sizer and a smaller expander button. The problem has NOT returned. Relatively slow powders require serious case neck tension (at least .003"-.004") and no amount of crimp will solve this. Elmer Keith reported this with 2400 in the .44 magnum so it is not a new problem. Most modern dies size the case enough. The problem is generally the expander button. Get a smaller one and I would guess your problem will go away.

Dale53

[biggome]

Since these straight walled cases don't get pulled over an expander button like a bottlenecked case, the case is only being flared enough to permit proper bullet entry and can be easily adjusted to reduce the flare. I have had the straight walled case expander dies not flare enough, no matter what I did, because of build up on them preventing proper insertion from extended bulk loadings without cleaning the dies but never have had a problem with too much flare not being able to be adjusted out. If the case is sized down enough, the dies are fine.

As far as WC-820 goes, I have shot thousands of rounds of 357 Mag loaded with WC-820 PD and standard WSP primers. As long as I keep the load at 15.5 grains with a 158 grain SWC cast bullet or 13.5 grains with a 180 grain cast bullet all is well. I only use magnum primers with full house 125 grain JHP loads which are all treated as if THEY MIGHT HAVE TO PERFORM PERFECTLY rather than my megabulk cast loads which are for less important use.

I once (early on in my WC-820 PD trials) loaded quite a bit of Lee TL356-124-2R, 9mm bullets over 13.5 grains in the 357 with WSP primers. Though they were fine in warm weather (before a larger loading run followed of course!) and worked well as a plinking load in a lightweight revolver, they weren't worth a damn in cold weather and gave me a bullet stuck in the barrel result as well as finding out they had a slightly too long overall length for some of my other revolvers. Not wanting to pull them all down I decided to do something stupid. I ran them all back through a seating die and carefully pushed the bullets down lightly on top of the powder charge. By doing so, I removed the crimp on the bullet all together, cuting a ring of lead much like loading a cap and ball revolver does. These rounds performed perfectly though the previously 38 Special load level looking fired primers were now flattening out a bit but not nearly as bad as factory 357 Mag ammo looks so I knew the pressure had climbed quite a bit but was still within reason. I have also loaded quite a few rounds of 357 ammo with 148 grain wadcutters seated in their normal position with the remainder of the case filled (not compressed) with WC-820 PD with similar results, no ignition problems, good accuracy and mild primer flattening to create a midrange (for me) load with an otherwise full house application powder.

I am not suggesting any of these loads, they worked well with my lot of powder, in my guns and are just shared with you for what they are worth.

Paul

[RayinNH]

Thanks all for your replies so far. Like I said, I still have some loaded rounds so I'll just recrimp these a bit harder. My second option I'll up the charge a bit to see if that helps. If neither pans out I'll have to buy some mag. primers as I don't have any of these yet for small pistol...Ray

[bobthenailer]

try magnum primers ive shot this powder for at least 15 years and have burned at least 30 lbs of it in 22 hornet, 32/20 , 30 carbine, 38 super, 357 mag, 44 mag, 454 casull and have never had any problems or seen any problems , except when std primers or a to far reduced load was used , i know alot of people personaly who use this powder and that was the only problem that came up!

[Bucks Owin]

Thanks all for your replies so far. Like I said, I still have some loaded rounds so I'll just recrimp these a bit harder. My second option I'll up the charge a bit to see if that helps. If neither pans out I'll have to buy some mag. primers as I don't have any of these yet for small pistol...Ray

Don't get TOO energetic with roll crimps or you'll actually loosen the bullet in the case as the case wall tries to buckle away from the projectile....

Just FYI,

Dennis

FWIW Junior, I'd think that by the time the boolit got to the barrel/cyl gap, the fire would already be lit?

[Junior1942]

FWIW Junior, I'd think that by the time the boolit got to the barrel/cyl gap, the fire would already be lit?Maybe, maybe not.

[lar45]

I had this problem crop up in my 454 when shooting in cold weather. I switched to mag primers and didn't have any other problems.

[RayinNH]

Someday I'll get to the range to try these out if it will only stop raining in the Northeast...Ray

[Lloyd Smale]

ive used 820 with std primers even in the 500 linebaugh with full loads and never had a problem. But it could be just a different batch that ignites a little harder.

[Poygan]

I've had 820 fail to fire with standard primers in both 357 and 45 Colt. It burned some of the coating off the powder and pushed the boolit into the barrel but that was it. Switched to magnum primers....

[RayinNH]

Well I checked to see if any of the boolits would turn in the case by hand and none would . I recrimped a little tighter anyway and took them to the range. What a world of difference that made. They all did as they were supposed to with no duds as mentioned in my previous post...Ray