Mixed feelings about antlerless elk

[superior]

I was planning on applying for a cow elk tag this year since I know where to find them and I haven't figured out how to eat horns yet. I was told today that the season runs from December to around May. I was also told that if I'm lazy and wait until later in that season that there is a good possibility that a shot elk cow will have a fully developed calf inside of it. Now I'm having mixed feelings. I want the elk but I don't want to abort a baby elk, especially when it's close to being born. Is this true??? How do you guys feel about that? I was so stoked about the prospect of hauling out hundreds of pounds of some of the best meat I've ever tasted but when I learned of the pregnancy situation, my fever turned to a chill. Have any of you faced this decision?:(

[357maximum]

Never hunted elk but I feel mixed emotions of guilt and mischief anytime I shoot a doe whitetail. I love to shoot and eat them occassionally....do not get me wrong on that, but somehow I never feel that tinge of guilt with a buck. That is very likely the reason I kill 8 or so bucks for every doe I kill.

right/wrong/or otherwise it is just the way it is with me personally.


I am not an expert on elk breeding cycles but all the elk are already pregnant by now very likely, so what difference does it truly make how far they are along. If you shoot a cow elk in september that is not been bred yet she is not going to calf and if you shoot her later when she is pregnant she is not going to calf. No matter how you slice it you killed 2 or 3 elk with that one boolit. I think that is why I feel the guilt with a doe and not with a buck.


Steelhead are kind of the same paradox....I have seen spring stream anglers almost kill themselves releasing a hen. That same angler out in the Great Lakes in september will greedily kill their limit of them. It is truly a paradox to me as the final result is the same.

This falls under the heading of what is right for you , going by your thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. and is different for everybody. In the end it is up to the person pulling the trigger on them elk in question.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

For me, I'd go huntin' . . . if it has a baby inside, so be it . . . like 357 Max said . . . if you shot her in the fall the day after she was bred, it is still a baby that is not gonna make it full term.

Don't be lazy . . .go get one now!

Shoot a smaller "yearling" less likley to be carry young . . .

Enjoy the meat.

[MT Gianni]

Most of the old timers prefered cows to bulls 75-100 years ago. Cows carried fat into the winter, bulls lost most during the rut. A "Spring" elk may have lost some reserves and not be as good tasting but it is still great meat. If the herds are healthy I would have no hesitation shooting one.

[Screwbolts]

Because I am a farm boy, I know that we created the environment that has allowed wild life to reach the numbers it has today. I also know that every living thing likes a free lunch, and that is exactly why there is such a good population of all game animals, we have given them a free lunch. There for it is our responsibility to help maintain the heath of these God Given Herds.

Being involved with Dairy farming, I know that we replace 1/4 to 1/3 of the heard every year to keep it healthy and strong. These are all Female cows, think Does, Cow Elk for you non agricultural people. The Bulls/ Bucks have nothing to do with these numbers.

Now Folks, because we created the food, cover and conditions that have allowed the God Given gift to thrive, it is our responsibility to help maintain it. This means that we need to harvest 1/4 to 1/3 of all adult female of the heard to keep it Healthy, Young and Strong. yes some yearling also get Harvested, it happens and it is OK. Now the fetus that you may find in a late harvested cow will not make a difference in the numbers. You see if you had harvested that Cow after she was serviced but before you could recognize the fetus, the end results would ultimately be the same.

You should rejoice in the ability to harvest a Doe/Cow, In reality you are actually helping the Health of the entire herd.

Please try to understand that it is our responsibility to help maintain the Heath and strength of this God given herd.

I do hope that my simple explanation will help you rejoice in the harvest of Cow or Doe of any game species.

Ken

Central NY

[superior]

Thank You for the replies. It's comforting to know I can count on you guys for support whenever I need help. I didn't know about that aspect of dairy farming and it makes sense. I will go ahead and apply for the tag. If I'm lucky enough to get one, then it was meant to be.

[Larry Gibson]

Superior

Are you talking about a December - May cow elk hunt in Oregon? I've seen late season cow elk hunts (agriculture) that went to the end of December but never saw any Dec - May. Have I missed something?

Larry Gibson

[superior]

Superior

Are you talking about a December - May cow elk hunt in Oregon? I've seen late season cow elk hunts (agriculture) that went to the end of December but never saw any Dec - May. Have I missed something?

Larry Gibson

Larry, I'm going by what I was told by a co-worker who was born and raised here.
I was asking him yesterday about how it all works and that's what he told me. I may be the victim of bad information. Please correct me (him) if it is wrong. He's here now telling me that the 600 series starts from Dec 1st- march 15th. He says that land owners (40 acres or more) can even get later.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

The general season is listed as Oct 17 - Nov 27 depending on species/location for rifle . . .bow is Aug29 - Sep 27 & Nov 28-Dec13

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/resources/hunting/big_game/regulations/seasons.asp

There is a tab/clicky about "Controled/Special Hunts" maybe that is what he is talking about?

[superior]

The general season is listed as Oct 17 - Nov 27 depending on species/location for rifle . . .bow is Aug29 - Sep 27 & Nov 28-Dec13

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/resources/hunting/big_game/regulations/seasons.asp

There is a tab/clicky about "Controled/Special Hunts" maybe that is what he is talking about?

Yes, the antlerless tag is a lottery pull. It's a controlled hunt and if you draw the tag, you cannot hunt during the general season.:cbpour:

[Larry Gibson]

Went to the ODFW site and they did have a Dec - Mar emergency hunt for elk in a couple units this year. Seems strange to have one in Wallowa County as the wolves, cougars and bears are now feeding more and more on elk since there aren't many deer left except around the towns. Perhaps they'll do the same in 2010. I have very mixed feelings on that........

BTW

The 600 series is for deer.

Larry Gibson

[OBXPilgrim]

Feel bad about it? Drop a wolf while you're out there, then SSS - be happy, enjoy the elk meat.

[clodhopper]

If its has no horns and is small that's my deer/elk.
I am very unlikley to ever again shoot a stinky ole mule deer buck in rut.
Would rather drag and eat a calf elk.
Still will kill a buck whitetail.
What Screwbolts says is so true, There is only so much space for game. Their ability to breed will over fill what ever area there is for them.
If for some reason the game fall behind on breeding, your state game and fish dept who moniter game numbers will restrict the season.
Warning, late season bulls/bucks may have lost their horns. Kill one who just barley survived the breeding season you will have a freezer full of meat that just won't go away.

[jnovotny]

There is no shame in shooting does, I have a doe to buck ratio of 5 to 1. Would rather butcher a doe than a buck anyway. Darn horns get in the way when you drag it, load it, and butcher it. If you are worried about finding a little one inside it. Then get out as soon as the extended season opens and lay one down. Won't likely find one then.

[Larry Gibson]

Guys

I've no problem with shooting cow elk or doe deer, I have shot lots of them. The problem I have is shooting doe deer, especially mule deer, in NE Oregon. There are so pitifully few of them that it is just not good management anymore. If the touchy feelies that moved out into every nook and cranny of the deer/elk winter range that complain about them eating their bushes and damaging their fences that are the cause for the emergency seasons. I won't let greedy rancher/farmers off the hook here either. The touchy feelies complain about hunting "bambi" yet want them removed when it is their rose bushes that get eat. The farmer/ranchers now have land owner preference tags and sell them for big bucks (pun intended) and should not complain either. There are precious few mule deer left in NE Oregon. You se one, two or maybe five or six where there used to be heards of 20 - 200. The habitat is still there to support that many is still there. It is the over shooting of does, the inability to use dogs, trap or bait bears and cougars and now the introduction of wolves that has led to a drastic reduction of the deer herds. Very poor management for the deer herd any way you look at it. When the deer are gone the elk calf survival rate is and will plumate.

Larry Gibson

[scrapcan]

If it is population control that is sought, you should help the managment agency by taking the females. One male can cover many females, if the females are not there even the inferior males cannot cover and create more numbers.

We have created some interesting selctive gentic breeding programs by taking only males. One area in Northeat Wyoming has a huge population of three point mule deer. They never get more points, just very large 3 points. That is a result of many years of 4 point or better restrictions. They had a huge number of 3 points of many age classes. They finally had to remove the point limit and start shooting does/fawns to control the numbers.

As far as the control hunt in your state, you may want to check if it includes cow or calf. It is hard to be a nice size calf for eating.

[Ivantherussian03]

I would not worry about it too much.....when they issue cow tags it is because problems animals, usually being a high population. If you dont knock a cow down she may end up being hit by car, and hurting someone. Plus hunting is hunting, I would focus on the positives and enjoy yourself.

If you want to do something good to repent you can knock down a coyote or wolf quietly. Either that donate money to the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. Or volunteer your time with ODFW.

But if you cant get past shooting cows.....then dont go.

[high standard 40]

I don't hunt elk but do hunt deer. The same principals apply. If you take a cow in Sept or March it matters not one bit. That cow is not going to bear a calf either way. I helped on a deer management program here in Louisiana years ago in conjunction with LSU and we had to remove the uterus from all does we took so they could age the fetus to determine when they bred. I thought about the same things you are now. But the truth is that cow is not going to deliver a calf no matter what time you take it.

I don't let it bother me. If it bothers you, you should never kill any elk, cow or bull for the same reason. Not trying to flame anybody. It's just the reality of what we as hunters do. We remove animals from the breeding pool.

[WILCO]

I would not worry about it too much......

Ditto for me! Go, shoot and eat. It's that simple........

[Ivantherussian03]

Sometimes I think about how I trap animals. When I started began I was squemish about certain situations. Now I dont even give it second thought. I have clubed animals that were not dead to avoid putting holes in hides, and then the finished the job with minimum problems. I know how to strangled a lynx in a leg trap without getting hurt or making the cat suffer for long. These things might seem brutal to some but that is trapping, and that is humane. It is the best for the animal and the fur. I even use the skinned bodies for bait, and that recycling too.

Hunting and trapping not sports for idealistic people. There is no perfect situation, usually just individual problems to overcome, manage, or make the best of.

The last moose I got.....we left the gut pile, lower legs, scraps and such. We went back a week later it was all gone. Scavengers gotta eat too. Circle of life type stuff.

That is my take on it...my wisdom....if I have any.

[TDC]

Game animals exist because of hunters.... pure and simple! If it wasn't for hunter political pressure that created game commissions for the management of wildlife most all species we hunt today would be long gone. We all want the best possible hunting experience and we must rely on our game biologists to help us achieve that goal.

Oregon is a prime example of how that process has been corrupted through the years through meddling by mis-informed do-gooders and idealists infected with the "Bambi syndrome." They "humanize" the animals, then try their best to stop the sport we all love so much.

Our biologist have the thankless responsibility of determining huntable deer and elk populations based primarily on available wintering habitat. Those prime wintering areas are rapidly declining due to all forms of encroachment by people. Never-the-less, that kind of assessment is predictable and calculable. There are a couple of major new and unforeseen management problems that have disrupted all former management techniques and they are directly attributable to political decisions. The result is they are simply devastating our herds.

Recently, in addition to those problems common to most other states, the "environmentalists" in Oregon have won a political decision to abolish hunting Cougar with hounds. The only truly feasible way to hunt Cougars is with dogs so there has been a huge explosion of Mountain Lion numbers throughout the state. I've seen some of the most spectacular Mule and Blacktail deer hunting areas reduced to non-existent animals because of the Lion depredation, and not just in small isolated areas either.

The second issue complicating ODFW management is the introduction of deer "Wasting Disease" that hasn't been a problem in Oregon before. The game commission doesn't acknowledge its existence here but I believe its here. Add a few wolf packs here and there... well.... you get the picture. Those population threats combined with the politically charged hound issue involving Cougars leaves us with a very dark hunting future for deer, elk and even Pronghorns.

How does this relate to the taking of cow elk? Normally I would have absolutely no problem with shooting cows or a doe as a proper management tool. But the situation in Oregon is becoming so dire we'll need all the female animals that can survive to replenish our herds. There seems to be no real desire by our legislators to change the hound usage issue so it appears we're on our own.

To keep Oregon a viable big game hunting state we have to do everything we can to change these stupid politics. In the mean time, pray for Oregon...

End of rant......

[RP]

If your raised in a hunting family hunting is not a big deal cleaning gutting a animals is nothing. Let a few come over when a deer is hanging up being cleaned and deboned you get diff reactions some are man that is cool never knew thats how you its done to OMG thats nasty. So alot of it has to do with what your around and how you understand how a hamburger gets to McDonalds its all not a smiling clown but somewhere a animal died.

[454PB]

Nearly 40 years ago, my hunting partner shot a cow Elk, and I was nearby. I got there in time to help him gut her. She had a calf, which was so confused he stood within 100 feet of us all the time we were gutting and dragging the Elk. That bothered me for a long time, as I know the calf was too young to survive without it's mom.

That said, it doesn't bother me to shoot a cow Elk, I've done it several times. You never know if they are pregnant, they breed just before rifle season opens.