357 Maximum lever rifle

[badgeredd]

OK guys...put on yer thinking caps for a few minutes please. Another member and myself have been thinking about a 357 Maximum lever gun. As far as I know there isn't one on the market currently. SO...I have been thinking about possible candidates for modification to function with it. After looking at a couple 357 Mag rifles, I doubt they would work because there is so much difference in the length of the the 2 cartridges. Any suggestions as to a posibility? I may be forced to build another wildcat if no one comes up with a workable idea and Lord knows, I don't need yet ANOTHER wildcat.....maybe.

Edd

[lathesmith]

badger, why not a 357/44 B&D levergun? No length or carrier mods necessary; all you need is a suitable barrel to turn to size, then rechamber, and you are off and running. Most any old 44 mag levergun would do.

I've thought long and hard about this very conversion myself, I was thinking of using my Ruger 96/44. That gun has been discontinued though, so it's now a "collector" piece and too valuable to modify. It feeds 357/44's just like 44 mags, and I suspect about any other levergun would do the same.

lathesmith

[docone31]

How about a .44/38?
Should be close.
should chamber easily.

[jbunny]

me thinks a savage 99 with the internal rotory magazine would work.
jb

[dsmjon]

I've thought about this. I like the thought of this. I NEED one of these.

[357maximum]

badger, why not a 357/44 B&D levergun? No length or carrier mods necessary; all you need is a suitable barrel to turn to size, then rechamber, and you are off and running. Most any old 44 mag levergun would do.

I've thought long and hard about this very conversion myself, I was thinking of using my Ruger 96/44. That gun has been discontinued though, so it's now a "collector" piece and too valuable to modify. It feeds 357/44's just like 44 mags, and I suspect about any other levergun would do the same.

lathesmith



Let's pretend it needs to be a "straightwalled cartridge of less than or equal to 1.8 inches in case length and 35 caliber or over " to be legal....just to keep Edd's post on track.

[badgeredd]

I probably should have mentioned that there are other forces at work here, but I didn't want to muddy the waters so to speak. You see, IF they allow rifles in the southern portion of Michigan's Lower Peninsula, the proposed rules will include the things 357 Maximum mentioned. That is, 35 caliber or larger, straight wall, and 1.8 inch long case or less. SO...I have already got an idea for a wildcat cartridge that would be legal, but I really would like a 357 Maximum in a lever. Any ideas? :bigsmyl2:

Edd

[docone31]

What about a Winchester 94, or a Marlin 336 in 38/55?
That shouldn't be too difficult in those actions.

[JohnH]

I don't know beans about the mechanics of lever actions, what will or work in a given action length. But it strikes me that Puma chambers their Model 92 in 454 Casuell, but I think that will still leave you some .2 or so on the long side witha 357 Max. The Speer manual #13 references lever guns being so chambered and owners being quite satisfied with them. I had a single shot rifle (NEF) a few years back and it was as nice a light rifle cartride as I've ever had. I have imagined a lever gun so chambered myself, but I've too great a fondness for single shots to pursue the idea. It ought to make a great companion.

[Nrut]

BLR
Rebarrel, use a clip/mag to accomodate the .357 Max round..

[Heavy lead]

I've been thinking about this too, I have an old 94 in 44 mag that is a little rough and has a 1/38 twist, I've completely tore this rifle down to understand the mechanics and modified the follower to feed much longer boolits than it would before (specifically the Lee 310 to the bottom crimp groove as well as any Keith boolit) before it would not feed either, but rather just the Lee 310 to the upper crimp groove. Don't know why this wouldn't work just fine with a .357 barrel rechambered with some follower work. Never had a max, but would like one.

[jhrosier]

One thing to consider is that many lever guns don't feed long straight cartridges well.
Many of the .44 Mag and particularly .45 Colt lever guns have funnel shaped chambers to allow the cartridges to feed smoothly. This does nothing for the brass life.
A Winchester Model 94 in .357 Magnum could be easily modified to handle the longer .357 Maxi, but I wouldn't want to bet that it would feed well without belling the chamber mouth deeper than I would be comfortable with.

Jack

[badgeredd]

What about a Winchester 94, or a Marlin 336 in 38/55?
That shouldn't be too difficult in those actions.

I am thinking that if I can't figure a way to use the 357 Max in a lever, then I will build a Long 375 Super Mag or a short 38-55. Notice the case length limit of 1.8".

jhrosier,
Yep my thoughts too. As far as I can tell the 92 simply won't allow the length of the 357 Max and the 94s chambered for 357 mag seem to be darn rare in this area. Besides the problem you mentioned is also a show stopper for me.

nrut,
Hadn;t thought about the BLR. I'll have to look into that.
possibly the Savage 99 might work also. especially one originally chambered for 25 or 30 Remington If there was such a critter.

I have a Handi in 357 Max and it is pretty inpressive for such a little gun, hence my interest in it in a lever.

I do appreciate all of your thoughts and suggestions.

Edd

[OBXPilgrim]

Would 360 Dan Wesson get the performance you're after?

I know Blammer's Win 94 angle eject (beatiful rifle to boot) is chambered for 360 DW. He'd be a good one to answer some of your questions, but I got a feeling he's been in the woods.

[missionary5155]

Good evening
I now for sure My 375 Win will cycle 375 Supermag rounds. Does not shoot so good But if the barrel was set back it sure would. I rethreaded a 375 Win barrel to fit my Post 94 30-30 frame and all cycles just fine.
Me I am looking into a 414SM lever gun. The 444Marlin is already there so the 445 SM is a MUTE subject. But a 414SM with a 265GC would be one fine rifle in my rack.

[jhrosier]

I am thinking that if I can't figure a way to use the 357 Max in a lever, then I will build a Long 375 Super Mag or a short 38-55. Notice the case length limit of 1.8". ...

You can make brass for this one cheap:

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd357herrett.jpg

And it should run through a 94 or 336 pretty slick.

Jack

[Blammer]

I have a Win 94.

A 357 Max case is too long for it to work through the action.

A 360 Dan Wesson will work.

You will have to modify the guide rails, filing on specific places to get the case to feed properly.

If you get one and want to do the conversion I have some specific articles you need to read to see how it's done.

I have done this conversion and shoot 360 DW cases exclusively now. I also borrowed a 357 Max finish chamber reamer to make my chamber nice and smooth so the cases fit nicely in the chamber.

Win 94's in 357 mag are going for a heafty price last I saw. Dang near $900 for one.

I have searched around and have found no lever action rifle that is suitable for a conversion to 357 MAX.

I currently shoot 185 gr boolits out of my 24" brl 360 DW at about 1700 fps. I've shot many 1" groups at 100 yds with it and several boolits and powder combinations. I've also take two deer with it. It is a neat gun.

[jhrosier]

For the .357 Herret, I was thinking of a rebarreled 30-30 or 32 Spl.

Jack

[Blammer]

ah a deer hunting project rifle!

gotta be a straight walled pistol case right?

360 DW will be your ticket in the Win 94, don't think you can do the conversion in a marlin or Rossi.

[jhrosier]

a...gotta be a straight walled pistol case right?...

Well, that puts a crimp on my idea.:(

Jack

[MT Gianni]

yea I was thinking of the 357 Reeder aka 357/41 Mag.

[leadman]

MT Gianni, I have what you are calling the 357 Reeder (356GNR) in a Ruger Blackhawk with 2 cylinders. 356 GNR & 357 Mag.
The 41 case is necked down to 357 but it has an extremely short neck and does work with cast, but not very well. All gas checked boolits are below the neck and you need to be extremely careful when belling the neck.
Probably will not meet the requirements of a straight walled case.
With full power loads it reminds me of the 30 carbine in a revolver as far as muzzle blast.


I have never examined a lever gun in 32-20, but the case is only about ten thousands shorter than a 360DW but don't know what would have to be done to make it feed a 360DW. Probably too expensive to by and convert also.

What about a widcat on the 30 Remington case?

[357maximum]

If this new law comes to pass I will very likely just order a longer 357max MGM barrel for the encore........but I sure would like to see the levergun 357max pan out. ...and since I am dreaming out loud...that extra .2 inches in length added to the 357max would be nice also....then I could drop back a few burnspeeds in powder and reduce my pressures a bit........my 357max MGM encore 15 incher runs a little warm ;) in the PSI department in order to get me to where I wanna be.

[45 2.1]

While your looking at rifles, research their pressure limitations. The standard Win '94 action is just about a 40K action while the '92 and '86 run closer to 50K. A lot of rifles have been trashed due to smithing to a higher pressure cartridge.

[jlchucker]

How about a 336 Marlin in 35 Remington?

[1Shirt]

What we really need is to have 357Max in factory lever action. I am not into conversions or wildcats except for simple rechambering, but I would buy a new off the rack 357Max Lever made by Marlin.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[badgeredd]

BTW happy belated birthday 1 shirt.

I am in FULL agreement with a factory chambered 357 Max but it seems the manufacturers like to make extremely long throats for this particular cartridge in general.

The straight wall cartridge limitation is the bugger in most of the 35 cartridges...and the case limitation of 1.8" is the other. While there are an abundance of factory cartridges in 35 caliber, their shape and or length eliminates their use according to the proposed rule changes here in the southern half of the Lower Peninsula of Michigan.

The idea appears to be limited by at least 2 obstacles as best as I can see. [smilie=b: First, the rim diameter of the Max causes problems, and secondly the case length is a bit short or long to be viable. I'm wondering if a cartridge along the lines of a 32-40 could be configured within the rules. Not a truly straight wall but a very long taper with no bottle neck and about 1.775" or so long (to stay below the 1.8" limitation. I kinda arrived at that idea from looking at my 35/30-30 cases.

It appears to me that if one cut down a 375 Winchester or a 38-55 case to 1.775 one would be totally within the guide-lines and would have a very usable cartridge. I personally have a Dan Wesson 375 Super Mag and have found it a great cartridge. I also own a 375 Winchester which is a fine cartridge so the "375 SO-MI Maximum (SOuthern MIchigan)would be fantastic. Ballistics would be slightly better than the Super Mag but less than the 375 Winchester. So much for my brain-storming.

Thanks guys for your input.

Edd

[wiljen]

How about a .444 Marlin rebarreled and the bolt face closed up? for that matter, why not cut a .444 to 1.8 and just use it as is?

[BABore]

If I did it on a Marlin, I would start with a 450 Marlin. The thread design is different than all the rest of them. They changed the thread type to boost strength in that area. Marlin spec'd max pressure at 42,500 psi. With a smaller case body and rim of a 357 Max, you could likely exceed that a little.

[Blammer]

Does it says Pistol cartridge or just straight walled case?

[BABore]

From what I've seen it says "Straight Walled" and max case length of 1.8. Pretty much the same as our handgun regs in the same zone.

Probably the thinking was so the 460/500 S&W are included. I also believe it has to be available in a commercial gun. Doesn't neceassarily mean that yours has to me commercial, just that one is available.

I was thinking of getting a 45-70 pistol bbl for my Encore for this same hunting zone til I get into the "staright walled" aspect.

[GrizzLeeBear]

This is right from the text of the proposed bill on the MI legislature's website.

"A .35 caliber or larger rifle loaded with straight-walled cartridges with a minimum case length of 1.16 inches and a maximum case length of 1.80 inches."

Doesn't say anything about having to be a commercially available gun or caliber.

If it passes, my .357 Magnum Handi will become a .357 Maximum. 8-)

[Dutch4122]

If it passes, my .357 Magnum Handi will become a .357 Maximum. 8-)


Same here. Lets keep our fingers crossed that it does pass!:rolleyes:

Edit: On the other hand I could just take my Marlin 1894SS in .44 Magnum, right? :)

[anachronism]

A Winchester 94 should do the trick. The same action is used for 30/30, so all that's really needed is to figure out what the differences, besides the bolt faces are. I'm positive the cartridge lifter is different between the two, so perhaps a 30/30 lifter would work for the 357 Max. The 357 mag lifter may be adaptable to the extra length if you cut the cartridge stop is cut back. We used to do this to 357 1894s to allow the use of longer bullets, like Keiths. I imagine Mic McPherson could probably tell you what you need to know, although he seems to work more with Marlins these days. Wild West Guns in Alaska might have some more recent information that mine, which I freely admit is rather dated. I know it can be done, but I just don't have an 1894 around to look at & compare to a 30/30.

[MT Gianni]

This is right from the text of the proposed bill on the MI legislature's website.

"A .35 caliber or larger rifle loaded with straight-walled cartridges with a minimum case length of 1.16 inches and a maximum case length of 1.80 inches."

Doesn't say anything about having to be a commercially available gun or caliber.

If it passes, my .357 Magnum Handi will become a .357 Maximum. 8-)

My guess is the stamp will still read 357 Mag. Mine does.

[badgeredd]

Can you name the cartridges?

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee338/badgeredd/PICT0417.jpg

Hint: TWO are commercial.

Edd

[OBXPilgrim]

41-30/30?
30/30 Win
35-30/30
357 max
360 DW

But, I guess that puts me at 3 commercial, so I must be wrong

[Mk42gunner]

Shortend 38-55 or .375Win, .30-30, .35/30-30, 35/32-40Short, .357Max.


How did I do?


Robert

[badgeredd]

Shortend 38-55 or .375Win, .30-30, .35/30-30, 35/32-40Short, .357Max.


How did I do?


Robert

Darn good! The 35/32-40 is a good description of what I formed up this afternoon. It has be cut to 1.785 to keep it within the 1.8 maximum length and seems to cycle very well into my 35/30-30.

Edd

[rockrat]

Why not use a a 35rem gun for the conversion? .440"rim VS .460" rim should work, and .3" in difference in length. Solder a spacer on the carrier for the shortened cartridge.

I would love a 357 max . levergun. Have a rechambered Ruger #1 in that caliber and I am amazed just what the round can do.

[badgeredd]

Why not use a a 35rem gun for the conversion? .440"rim VS .460" rim should work, and .3" in difference in length. Solder a spacer on the carrier for the shortened cartridge.

I would love a 357 max . levergun. Have a rechambered Ruger #1 in that caliber and I am amazed just what the round can do.

You may be on to something there Rockrat. I have a 336SC that needs some (actually quite a bit) of TLC. I loaded 3 dummy cartridges into the magazine, and they seem to feed ok. One might have to add metal to the cartridges stop and would definitly have to change the extractor, but it does look to be do-able. Hmmmmmmm...maybe cut the barrel off and set it back for the new chamber?
It would result in a shortened carbine like barrel but I think it is possible without great expense. Gonna have to study this idea more.

If you look at the picture above(post #16), notice the cartridge second from the right. Does it appear to be "straight walled?" My idea if the Max won't work. Since I am very partial to 35 caliber guns, it is my preferred alternative. Second choice for an alternative and likely a bit cheaper to build would be the left cartridge, a shortened 38-55.

Edd

[McLintock]

When I got my first '94 in 38-55, it was a Oliver F. Winchester commemerative with a 24" barrel. As I got it for Cowboy Action long range side matches, I needed to get nine rounds in the mag for most 10 round shoots, so I'd only have to load one round on the clock. I started shortening the cases until I got down to 1.90" and got the nine rounds in the mag. It fed good and functioned fine, but that rifle had a quirk I couldn't get out of it. With a cold barrel it placed the first shot about 15-18" high, the second half that or so and the third about a quarter of that, no matter the case length, but once the barrel heated up a little it shot good.
The point is I think shortened 38-55 rounds will work good through a '94 action and shoot good if your gun doesn't have a quirk like that one did. I got 1450 fps with that shortened load and a 250 gr bullet, with IMR 4227 powder. After I basically did away with the original gun, sold the action and still have the barrel and wood, I used the shortened cases in my Browning '85 and it shot like gangbusters, very consistent and accurate. So, I wouldn't hesitate to shorten to 1.8", you can seat the bullet out a bit if you need a longer OAL. I did that with 265 gr gas check bullets for the single shot and a pretty hot load with both IMR 3031 and RL7.
McLintock

[badgeredd]

Same here. Lets keep our fingers crossed that it does pass!:rolleyes:

Edit: On the other hand I could just take my Marlin 1894SS in .44 Magnum, right? :)

Yeah Dutch, but what's the fun in that? :p I think I have a reason for another rifle here. [smilie=l:[smilie=l: And of course the idea of something different is a really siren for me. Gun cranks just gotta. :smile:

Edd

[Nrut]

Edd,
What boolit do you have loaded in the 35/30-30 and 35/30-40?
Is it the NOE 358318 FN?

[JFE]

As someone has already suggested you really need to start with a Win 1894 in 357. Something similar has been done before by a guy called Tycer. Not sure whether he is member here but he posts on the leverguns website and is very approachable and helpful.

Here is a link to an article on what he did with his conversion.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/Trapper.html

Its not quite a 357 Max conversion, but you could take his concept a little further and it should be inexpensive and relatively easy to perform.

Joe

ps. BTW there no reason you couldnt do the same with a Win 1894 in 44 or 45LC and go to 445 and 460S&W respectively. It would need to be handloads only though as the 1894 isnt designed for high pressure loads.

[Four Fingers of Death]

When I started reading this post I immediately thought 360Dan Wesson., minimal work to be done to get that to work, just open up the chamber and check the feed I suppose. An 1894 Marlin springs to mind with a few mods to allow the slightly longer case. I wonder if I could rechamber my 92 Rossi (the one n my avitar) to 360DW and still feed 38s for cowboy stuff?

Paco Kelly bought out an a$$ kicking load using a 38+P+ case and the 180Gn XTR bullet. I can't find it anywhere, but it had serious whoompum!

[badgeredd]

Edd,
What boolit do you have loaded in the 35/30-30 and 35/30-40?
Is it the NOE 358318 FN?

Nrut,

That boolit is my own creation. It is a Lyman 358315 modified to the nose profile you see. Weighs 235 grains with lube and check. A friend talked me out of that particular mold so I have to make another for myself. I am told that it works out to 200 yards so far with no stability issues. My idea was to have a LARGE meplat with slight engraving on the nose which I achieved, Now I have to duplicate the cutter I made it with to make a new mold for myself. The friend would likely let me borrow it back...but then again maybe not.:bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

Edd

[Old Ironsights]

Yep. I've seen Tycer's .360DW. Being the Political Animal I am that fought the Indiana PCR fight so I could use my .357 Rossi, I can understand the legal issues...

But I really don't see why (other than "cool factor") you would want to go through the stress of building a max gun. The .357 with the Buffalo Bore/Junior C358180RF load will stomp 'em stone dead out to 100+ yds with ease. Once I worked with that load in my Rossi a bit, I lost all desire for a Maximum/B&D project.

[NHlever]

I guess my question is why? Why expose your nice lever gun to pressures it was never designed for to gain a very few yards in practical performance? Standard pistol calibers are proven deer rounds so I really see little point in the exercise. Call me a PIA, but I think a scoped muzzleloader using pellet powder, and sabot bullets is stretching the idea of a primitive hunting season further than it should be stretched anyway. Of course I guess the object is to "win", no matter how far you have to stretch an idea. How you can call a 10 shot lever action repeating rifle "primitive" hunting is beyoned me. Since it is so primitive, maybe we should allow hunting at night with lights........

OK, end of rant. It is always fun to experiment with new calibers, or play with modifying the ones we have........

[badgeredd]

I guess my question is why? My question is why not!Why expose your nice lever gun to pressures it was never designed for to gain a very few yards in practical performance? I don't understand your thinking here. The 357 Max has no more pressure than the 35 Remington. The law will allow a straight walled cartridge up to 1.8" long and I love the 357 Max. Perhaps you're talking of a different cartridge than what I assumed you were(OP was for the 357 Max)...if so I apologize for the rant. It just seems to me that our hobby is full of people that want to try something different and I see that as a good thing.Standard pistol calibers are proven deer rounds so I really see little point in the exercise. The 357 max IS a pistol cartridge, although I guess one could say not a general standard.Call me a PIA, but I think a scoped muzzleloader using pellet powder, and sabot bullets is stretching the idea of a primitive hunting season further than it should be stretched anyway. How does this apply to the centerfire season here? Of course I guess the object is to "win", no matter how far you have to stretch an idea. How you can call a 10 shot lever action repeating rifle "primitive" hunting is beyoned me. I don't understand this statement either. This isn't the primitive season I am talking about. BTW, as best as I can figure, it (custon 357 Max rifle) would have no more than a six shot magazine capacity. Since it is so primitive, maybe we should allow hunting at night with lights........As to the primitive season, I prefer my underhammers or my cap locks.

OK, end of rant. It is always fun to experiment with new calibers, or play with modifying the ones we have........AND ther you have it. Just something a bit different cause I can.

Interesting comments, but I don't understand where they came from. In this area of the state a centerfire rifle hasn't been legal for years. I personally detest shotguns for deer...not saying they won't do the job...just don't like them for myself which I believe is my option. Since I now may have the option of using a rifle I would like to have, I'll indeed take advantage of the opportunity. AND if I can build a rifle to do it why not go for it. IF it was legal in my area, I'd likely use a tirty-tirty or my 35/30-30 and be happy as a piggie in mud.

Edd

[bearcove]

I've thought about this too. Simplest way I could see would be a 336 in 35 Rem. Set the barrel back and rechamber. Probably need to fiddle around with feeding but seating bullets out as long as possible might help. Then you would need to deal with that extra case capacity. Bummer, bit more powder maybe. I want to do one with a new barrel that has ballard rifling. Be a great deer rifle. With the smaller case capacity a 18 inch barrel would be ideal.

I think its a great idea by the way. And I don't NEED one for where I hunt!

[badgeredd]

Bearcove,

After looking over my 336SC I have come to the conclusion that the 35 Rem to 357 Max may well be the answer. I am assuming the carrier will have to be slightly modified and the extractor will need changed, but everything else seems to be pretty straight forward. And yes I'd prefer Ballard type rifling BUT if I can get this to work the way I think it will, I can always swap in a new barrel after I've proven out the concept. I really don't think that one would be required to seat the boolit out to affect proper feeding, but that will be determined as the project proceeds. My thinking is that the original barrel will lose about 1.6" to eliminate the original chamber, leaving an 18 3/8" long barrel....perfect carbine length in my mind. While talking to a friend yesterday, I voiced the thought of shortening the barrel and forearm to maintain existing dovetails in the SC barrel which seems to be a pretty good way to cut down on the work involved in the conversion. The mag tub could be shortened appropriately also so everything in front of the forearm would remain basically the same.

I don't "NEED" this conversion either...just want it CUZ! :bigsmyl2:

Edd

[NHlever]

I was under the impression that there are a couple of states that allowed pistol calibers for primitive seasons, and thought you were talking about that. My mistake, and I'm sorry, pistol calibers are a viable alternative to shotguns. I also thought the .357 Maximum was a 50,000 cup pressure caliber, and the load information I have shows 46,900 lbs cup which is quite a bit higher than the .357 mag, etc. I do know that when fired in a single action revolver with the original ammo it would stretch a frame enough to allow full grains of powder to escape in a cardboard box when the barrel / cylinder gap was less than .003. The .35 Rem data I have is held to 35,00 CUP.

I apologize if I came across to harshly.

Now, just for the sake of saying it, a .223 case is the same diameter as a .357, but headspacing off the case mouth might be a bit iffy in a rifle. Was there ever a .222 rimmed?

[felix]

Yes!!! ... felix

[GLL]

My .357Maximum "lever rifle" ! ;) ;)

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/A2E9333082F31F9/standard.jpg

[badgeredd]

I was under the impression that there are a couple of states that allowed pistol calibers for primitive seasons, and thought you were talking about that. My mistake, and I'm sorry, pistol calibers are a viable alternative to shotguns. I also thought the .357 Maximum was a 50,000 cup pressure caliber, and the load information I have shows 46,900 lbs cup which is quite a bit higher than the .357 mag, etc. I do know that when fired in a single action revolver with the original ammo it would stretch a frame enough to allow full grains of powder to escape in a cardboard box when the barrel / cylinder gap was less than .003. The .35 Rem data I have is held to 35,00 CUP.

I apologize if I came across to harshly.

Now, just for the sake of saying it, a .223 case is the same diameter as a .357, but headspacing off the case mouth might be a bit iffy in a rifle. Was there ever a .222 rimmed?

Totally understood. No problem.

Yes I believe you are correct about the pressure thingy (I was thinking the max was about 40000 psi or less), but I have to believe the bolt thrust of a 357 Max is going to be considerably less than say the 45-70 in the 1895 Marlin. H&R chambered the 357 Max in their Handi Rifle (I have one) so the operating pressure and bolt trust I believe should be safe in a 336. I WILL have to verify the pressures before I proceed though.

Yes there was/is a 222 Rimmed version which I believe can be formed from 357 Max brass or at least nearly so. So one would be going the long way to get there so to speak. A 223 could be used as you mention, but I honestly don't care for cartridges that headspace off the mouth of the case ala 45 ACP in a rifle type situation. Probably nothing wrong with it, but just my likes.

Edd

[badgeredd]

My .357Maximum "lever rifle" ! ;) ;)

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/A2E9333082F31F9/standard.jpg

Jerry...you are a mean man. :kidding: :grin: :grin: :grin:

I'd love to go that route but I am kinda settled into the Lever/repeater idea. Besides the money tree here died this last fall so I have to be more careful about spending it. ;-)

Edd

[bearcove]

Yes , I think the money tree is going extinct due to a variety of exotic conservation measures.

[NHlever]

Industry standard pressure for the .357 Max is 48,000 cup. That is still under the 375 Winchester though, and a few Marlins, and the BB Winchester's were chambered for that.

[badgeredd]

Industry standard pressure for the .357 Max is 48,000 cup. That is still under the 375 Winchester though, and a few Marlins, and the BB Winchester's were chambered for that.

Thank you. That was my main reason for wanting to use a 336 since they seem to be the strongest lever action on the market now.

Edd

[45r]

I hope the 357 max thing comes about but if not I can see a 45 colt cowboy with a 24 inch barrel putting out some deer stomping loads using 296 or H-110 with 240 and 300XTP mag condum bullets and some 315GC boolits.A 357 cowboy would see some use also.Michigan must be wanting to be as cool as Ohio and Indiana about letting people hunt with more stuff.Hunting with a 357 to 45 levergun is what a lot of people will like.

[NHlever]

My .357 Mag Winchester 94 Legacy feeds, and functions just fine with the RCBS 35-200 FN seated to the crimp groove. I can't tell you the OAL off hand, but it is quite a bit longer than a standard .357. Feed, and function wise, I think that would be the place to start.

[Mugs]

FWIW on Rossi 92 pressures. Go to www. gunblast.com archives and read Paco's Dec. 2002 test of the .454.
Mugs
IHMSA 5940L

[GrizzLeeBear]

. . . the RCBS 35-200 FN seated to the crimp groove. I can't tell you the OAL off hand, but it is quite a bit longer than a standard .357. . .

I have done exactly that in the handi with .357 mag. brass and Lil Gun. That boolit carries much of its weight in the nose so it leaves the same powder space as a 158 grainer. It also gets the boolit nose closer to the rifling. Shoots very well, even better when I run the Forester hollow pointer in about 1/3 of the nose length. Would whack bambi out to 150 yds easy.

[Four Fingers of Death]

" Was there ever a .222 rimmed? "

I didn't see anyone answer this NHLever, but this is a reasonably popular round in Australia and New Zealand. It was hugely popular some years back. We use it in Martini actions as a rule. You can still get brass here, although supply is a bit patchy at times and not many shops sell it.

I actually bought a 17cal based on this round recently.

[AJMD429]

me thinks a savage 99 with the internal rotory magazine would work.
jb
How about a Ruger 96/44 . . . ?

[excess650]

Why not use one of the 1895 Marlins in 45-70 and use a shortened 45-70 case? I don't recall the case length, but the .475 Linebaugh was one of those.

A 336 action with 30/30 bolt face should handle a shortened 38-55 round without problem. The 375Win was chambered in the 336 at one time.

I HAVE a Savage 1899 rebored/rechambered from 30-30 to 38-55. The most difficult part, other than finding someone to do the rebore, was modifying the rotary magazine to feed the straight cases.

There was a later model 99 chambered for the .375Win cartridge, so would lend itself to a 375 Supermag conversion rather easily IF you could find one.

[shdwlkr]

Some please explain to me what I am missing here if the overall length of the 357 max is 1.990 and the case length of a 30-30 is 2.039 why won't a 357 max work in the model 94 winchester? I would look for a bb winchester action myself just for the extra metal and go from there. If it can take the pressure of the 307 and 356 cartridges I would think it would handle the 357 max.

I am looking at building a 256 win mag and have decided on one of the new miroku winchesters because of the better steel being used. Also if I start with a 357 mag rifle the changes are only a barrel and mag tube to meet my needs. Was going to use a early model 92 but the pressures on the cartridge I want to use and what the old ones were made for made me just a little uneasy.

[badgeredd]

I have found that one can convert a Marlin 336 in 35 Remington to 357 Maximum. One has to modify the carrier by adding material to align the cartridge with the chamber for more consistent feeding and one needs a longer boolit than the typical 180 grain j-words or cast boolits. It appears one can use the RCBS 35-200 FP or a similarly shaped boolit to achieve reasonable feeding. The existing extractor for 35 Remington will work consistently with a little tweaking of the bolt face and extractor. I still haven't found the perfect fix for totally reliable feeding, but am figuring that one will have to make the first shot count and then methodically rack another one into the chamber. More to follow....

Edd

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have found that one can convert a Marlin 336 in 35 Remington to 357 Maximum. One has to modify the carrier by adding material to align the cartridge with the chamber for more consistent feeding and one needs a longer boolit than the typical 180 grain j-words or cast boolits. It appears one can use the RCBS 35-200 FP or a similarly shaped boolit to achieve reasonable feeding. The existing extractor for 35 Remington will work consistently with a little tweaking of the bolt face and extractor. I still haven't found the perfect fix for totally reliable feeding, but am figuring that one will have to make the first shot count and then methodically rack another one into the chamber. More to follow....

Edd

What advantages does the 357Max have over the 35Remington? Seems a lot of trouble for maybe not much gain.

I have always fancied a 35 Rem and have never seen one for sale in Australia, until last night on an Aussie gunshop's internet site. D'Oh!

[Old Ironsights]

The "advantage" exists if and only if you ALSO have a .357 MAX pistol.

With the exception of specific Local Laws (like in Indiana), the "raision d'etre" of Pistol Caliber Rifles is to be able to share ammo between your Rifle and your Pistol.

My .357 Pistol is stout enough to handle my .357 Rifle Loads. That's ALL I care about when the Firing Pin hits the Anvil...

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Have about 400 rounds through my 414 Supermag Marlin 336. JES did the boring and rifling and I bought a reamer. The action will cycle fine as long as you keep the cartrige OAL long so the boolit nose will will guide correctly into the chamber. I seat a modified RD .411 255 GC out to the forth ring (2nd grease groove). This also gives a bit more case capacity which is great using slower powders.
So there is no reason the caliber .357 Supermag (Max) should not also be a winner.
I await the year the great state of ILL lets us use pistol caliber rifles to smack whitetails. Saw 8 yesterday within 35 yards of my stand. My recurve abilities limit my launching to 22 yards. But that Supermag would easily reach out there.
Mike in ILL

[badgeredd]

What advantages does the 357Max have over the 35Remington? Seems a lot of trouble for maybe not much gain.

I have always fancied a 35 Rem and have never seen one for sale in Australia, until last night on an Aussie gunshop's internet site. D'Oh!

I added the last post to a thread I started some time ago (nearly 3 years ago) so everyone could get the history behind the idea. In my part of Michigan, we are not yet allowed to use a rifle BUT there is a chance that in the near future they will allow a STRAIGHT walled cartridge 1.16 inch case to 1.800 inch long case. They also require 35 caliber or larger. The 35 Remiington is not straight walled and is too long as is. :bigsmyl2: Therefore the labor to get something Marlin should build.

Edd

[No_1]

Do you / can you also shoot 38 Special or 357 Mag through it accurately? I am curious since I also have a #1 (Highway Patrolman) .357 Magnum from a trade and was considering either 358 Winchester or 357 MAXIMUM.


My .357Maximum "lever rifle" ! ;) ;)

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/A2E9333082F31F9/standard.jpg

[Four Fingers of Death]

I added the last post to a thread I started some time ago (nearly 3 years ago) so everyone could get the history behind the idea. In my part of Michigan, we are not yet allowed to use a rifle BUT there is a chance that in the near future they will allow a STRAIGHT walled cartridge 1.16 inch case to 1.800 inch long case. They also require 35 caliber or larger. The 35 Remiington is not straight walled and is too long as is. :bigsmyl2: Therefore the labor to get something Marlin should build.

Edd

OK, I remember now!

These laws don't make sense, but they obviously made sense to someone at one point in time!

UPDATE:
I decided not to go ahead with the 35 Remington Marlin, much as I would like to try one. I am a bit strapped for cash at the moment and would have had to sell my pre 64' 94 Winchester 30/30 to get it.

The shop that was selling it had four packets of ammo and a ring around failed to find any brass or ammo in my state. (it is virtually impossible to ship ammo here for the average guy). Looking down the barrel at new dies, get a friend to pick up the mega dollar expensive ammo 500miles away and I will probably see you at a shoot early next year, couldn't find anyone with dies, etc, etc, etc.Starting to get too difiicult.

I took the 94 to the range to show my friend who is a dealer and fired off some factory ammo while I was waiting for him. I think I will keep it and forget the 35Remington for the moment. He didn't appreciate what he was looking at, kept telling me about how good his 44Mag Legacy was.

It was a pre 64 kind of day,I also fired my 1949 built Model 70 in 270Win.

I can see now why I bought them in the first place, great guns.

[JHeath]

FWIW on Rossi 92 pressures. Go to www. gunblast.com archives and read Paco's Dec. 2002 test of the .454.
Mugs
IHMSA 5940L

The .454 carbine exceeds the allowable pressure on the owner's shoulder. I fired two rounds of 300gr, wearing a thick high-power shooting jacket, and that was enough. i confess to having a bony, easily bruised shoulder, but that carbine with that load hurts on both ends.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The .454 carbine exceeds the allowable pressure on the owner's shoulder. I fired two rounds of 300gr, wearing a thick high-power shooting jacket, and that was enough. i confess to having a bony, easily bruised shoulder, but that carbine with that load hurts on both ends.

I always say,'you can't fight Physics!' Anything throwing that much lead, that fast in front of a case with such a high pressure load, mannnnn, that's gotta hurt! Great handy rifle for lots of carrying and the odd angry shot at something that bites and scratches!

Gotta try one of these one day!

[badgeredd]

I have found that one can convert a Marlin 336 in 35 Remington to 357 Maximum. One has to modify the carrier by adding material to align the cartridge with the chamber for more consistent feeding and one needs a longer boolit than the typical 180 grain j-words or cast boolits. It appears one can use the RCBS 35-200 FP or a similarly shaped boolit to achieve reasonable feeding. The existing extractor for 35 Remington will work consistently with a little tweaking of the bolt face and extractor. I still haven't found the perfect fix for totally reliable feeding, but am figuring that one will have to make the first shot count and then methodically rack another one into the chamber. More to follow....

Edd

Well guys I got er dun.
Here is a picture of it. You'll notice I have shortened the barrel, magazine, and fore-end. I threaded the barrel and fit it to the receiver, chambered it to 357 Max, and then the fun began. I modified the bolt facr a bit to help the feeding along with adding metal to the carrier cartridge stop, added metal to the carrier to elevate the cartridge a bit, and worked on the extractor to get better cartridge feed. All in all, it wasn't horribly difficult, but definitely was trying at times. The feeding is pretty good with a 210 grain boolit I made years ago from a modified 358156 mold. It is similar in profile to the RCBS 200 FN but has a second crimp groove that allows me to seat it out further. I have been unable to get the Glenn Larson 180 grain boolit to function. It appears that the extra length of the 210 os needed to reliably feed.

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee338/badgeredd/357Maximum.jpg

I forgot to take a picture of the target, but my initial loads grouped fairly well in a 2 1/2" group at 50 yards. Currently, I am awaiting a custom mold from Accurate Arms that I designed primarily for this rifle. It is in his catalog as a 360-207B and also has 2 crimp grooves. The reason behind the custom design was to increase the bore-ride section ahead of the top driving band to .355 which is what my barrel bore measures. Hopefully the added support of the nose will improve accuracy.

Edd

[Dutch4122]

So, when do the rest of us get to try out your new toy? [smilie=s:

I suggest you inspect all outgoing gun cases before a certain friend of ours leaves after his next visit!:bigsmyl2:

[badgeredd]

So, when do the rest of us get to try out your new toy? [smilie=s:

I suggest you inspect all outgoing gun cases before a certain friend of ours leaves after his next visit!:bigsmyl2:

YEP...that is a definite "need to."

Edd

[357maximum]

Glad to hear she is done EDD......looks purdy too. If they pass that carbine in the the southern zone law you better heed Matt's advice on the case inspection...I know a guy that might just do such a thing. :shock:

[Four Fingers of Death]

Some years back, before the short and super short actions hit the scene, guys used to cut pre 64 Model 70 Winchesters and Mausers to make shorter (and less often to make longer ones). The round bolt bodies of the Mod 70 and Mauser would make it a lot simpiler (notice I didn't say simple). Perhaps a mid length 92 or 1894 Marlin? I think I'd rather cut up two Rossis than two ZMarlins though.

I have an article somewhere where a guy made a shortened Mod 70 and used the cut out bits to lenghten another.

A gunsmith in Australia Damien Connelly (currently living and working in the States) once had a 'I don't care what it costs, this is what I want project' where he cut two Lugers lengthwise, slightly off centre to make a slightly wider Luger, chambered for 45ACP! Shows you what you can do if you have the smarts and the skills, buttttttttttttttttttt, you gotta have deep pockets as well!

I have a beater Mauser in the safe downstairs, I have often considered operating on that.

[KCSO]

With a 357 Max in a 94 winchester you need to either modify the carrier or use a carrier from a 38-55. It can be done but if you can't do the work yorself look a cubic dollars.

[helice]

Well guys I got er dun.
Here is a picture of it. You'll notice I have shortened the barrel, magazine, and fore-end. I threaded the barrel and fit it to the receiver, chambered it to 357 Max, and then the fun began. I modified the bolt facr a bit to help the feeding along with adding metal to the carrier cartridge stop, added metal to the carrier to elevate the cartridge a bit, and worked on the extractor to get better cartridge feed. All in all, it wasn't horribly difficult, but definitely was trying at times. The feeding is pretty good with a 210 grain boolit I made years ago from a modified 358156 mold. It is similar in profile to the RCBS 200 FN but has a second crimp groove that allows me to seat it out further. I have been unable to get the Glenn Larson 180 grain boolit to function. It appears that the extra length of the 210 os needed to reliably feed.


http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee338/badgeredd/357Maximum.jpg

I forgot to take a picture of the target, but my initial loads grouped fairly well in a 2 1/2" group at 50 yards. Currently, I am awaiting a custom mold from Accurate Arms that I designed primarily for this rifle. It is in his catalog as a 360-207B and also has 2 crimp grooves. The reason behind the custom design was to increase the bore-ride section ahead of the top driving band to .355 which is what my barrel bore measures. Hopefully the added support of the nose will improve accuracy.

Edd

Edd,
Finally. Congratulations. What a beauty.
If you recall, Edd, I have an LBT mould, a WLN of about 240 grains with a bevel base. It was this boolit that made me get a beer can check die made. Veral said it was made for the Max. Contenders. Do you want me to send you the mould? :confused: It might be fun and it just might work.??????:confused::veryconfu
I've also got an LBT-WFN that drops about 225grains. If you'd like I can send you the total length and nose to crimp etc.
Karl

[NYBushBro]

Perhaps a bit off-topic... but would a Winchester model 1910 in .401 WSL be legal in MI (ie: 200 gr bullet in a straight-walled 1.5" case - in a semi-auto)?

[NYBushBro]

What might be the ballistics of the .357 MAX (or a .414 Super Mag, for that matter) out of a 20" barrel with a 200 grain bullet? I'm curious...

[357maximum]

With an attentive handloader 2200 fps with a 200 grain boolit is about the limit on can get regardless of barrel length. After about 15 to 16 inches of barrel the 357MAX gains nothing other than sight radius as you increase barrel length, there is simply not enough "fuel" to make the longer barrels better.

I got to shoot Edd's 357MAX lever last weekend.....it was an absolute treat, and he needs to watch that gun while I am around.....it might grow legs and walk away. :lol:



As far as the 401WSL it would currently be legal in a pistol as the bill that will make it legal in a rifle/carbine is just sitting there in the legislature 1/2 of the way to it's destination. It does not "exist" as a law "yet". Our state allows very young deer hunters not but it makes 1/3 of them use guns that knock the living daylights out of them (slugs)................the rifle length pistol rounds would fix that issue, but apparently "they" do not give a flying **** about it as the bill just sits there tabled for now.

[BAGTIC]

I have a Marlin M1894 .357 modified to .357 Maximum. It is not very satisfactory. First it requires a much lengthened lever throw which results in rough feeding. If the lever is worked fast it works mor or less but forget trying to gently slip one into the chamber. Actually in the shorter barreled carbines you are not going to gain all that much velocity. The .360 might be a good idea if it is a stronger case. I would not worry about the pressures at least within SAAMI limits. These guns are chambered for the .44 Magnum which generates more bolt thrust than the .357 Maximum or .30-30. I hav a fairly recent Winchester M94 Trapper in .45 Colt I lengthened th carrier (lifter) by grinding back the shoulder. It accepts .45 Colt loaded to 1.85 inch and feeds them interchangeably with factory length. Seating the bullet out permits lighter weight (300-350 gr.) to duplicate factory .45-70 ballistics. If your gun already has a long throat it might be enough to lengthen your carrier and continue using the shorter cases. With heavier bullets they will probably reach far enough to seat in the shorter cases. Anyway the working ballistics will not be much lower than the longer case. Sometimes "The best is the enemy of the Good." --Enough

[Captain O]

Many people view this as an exercise in futility. I think that if one would have a custom barrel made and the proper carrier installed, the .357 Maximum Cartridge would make a dandy whitetail deer carbine. 200-grains of hard cast boolit with a 2-grain gas check running at 1850-1875 fps from an 18-20" barrel, generating 1520 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle and about 1000 foot-lbs at 100 yards is more than enough to effectively harvest deer. Lighter cartridges and higher energies in a smaller package make this a handy package when "woods tramping". What's not to like?

Welcome to the 21st century.

[farmbif]

I must be missing something or I dont understand but then again im not a gunsmith. both the marlin and winchester 375 win work perfect the 357 max is shorter, why wouldn't it work.

[Moleman-]

I must be missing something or I dont understand but then again im not a gunsmith. both the marlin and winchester 375 win work perfect the 357 max is shorter, why wouldn't it work.

I've done a 30-30 336 to 357Max. MI where I hunt won't allow 35Rem in a rifle. It feeds 38, 357mag and 360DW. Either I got extremely lucky or it isn't very hard to do. Only needed mods to the bolt: extractor slot deepened so the extractor could reach the smaller rim; ejector slot deepened so the ejector could hit the smaller rim. The carrier; metal added to the top to keep the smaller rims from falling into the lever clearnace cut and guide the rims to the loading gate; a cartridge stop added for the shorter length cartridge; metal added to the bottom to start lifting the carrier up sooner for the smaller dia and shorter case.