Lee "collet" Die question

[Jeffery8mm]

Are the Lee Deluxe Rifle Dies with the Colet neck sizer all they are touted to be?? Lee stated that they come with a full length die and the neck sizer die.
Lee Deluxe Rifle Die Set. Claims TEN times the brass life!!!!
From Lee::

The patented, world record setting Collet Neck Sizing Die is teamed up with the patented, Lee Full Length Sizing Die! There is no loading system that will load more accurate ammunition than the Lee Collet Die. No one but Lee has ever dared to make a guarantee like this - Smallest group size or your money back. In addition to the guaranteed accuracy, you will extend your case life ten times, no lubrication is required and dead length bullet seating.
If you're like most reloaders you have a ready source of empty cases that were fired in another gun. In the past, you had to purchase a full length resizing die set separately to use this brass. Not any more - the Deluxe Die Set includes the full length die. And all this for less than others charge for a standard die set.

The Lee Deluxe Die Set is the most flexible and accurate die set available. The Lee Collet neck sizing die is enhanced by the addition of the patented Lee full length resizing die, which allows us to produce ammunition to factory-new specifications using cases fired in other guns. Your precision fire-formed brass can be used to reload the most accurate ammunition for your gun using the Lee Collet neck sizing die. No other die can produce more accurate ammunition. We are so confident, we guarantee it. In addition to the best accuracy, you get these benefits:

* No case lubrication required
* Reduced or eliminates case trimming

Thanks for any advice!!
Jeff

[RobS]

I like my lee collet dies and have used them on 270, 303 brit, 308, 30-06, 300 WM, as well as with the 375 H&H. If you shoot your brass from only one rifle this die is excellent if not then you may have to full length size so your reloads will work in both firearms that is unless you would happen to sort your brass to each rifle.

I would say that lee did it right on this one and yes I've noted extended brass life, most definately, vs full length sizing.

[Shiloh]

Used them in .30-06, .30-30, 6mm Rem. .223. Plan to use them in 8mm Mauser as well.
I love 'em. Easy to use, extended case life.

Shiloh

[Buckshot]

............I'd suspect that 10X brass life may be if you were FL sizing before and the rifle's chamber didn't allow an excessive amount of caseneck exspansion. If you do have such a chamber the collet die isn't going to really help. Fully 98% of all case failures I've experienced have been neck issues such as cracks developing at the mouth, or cracks that appeared and ran from the mouth to the neck-shoulder junction. Their main attraction for me is that no caselube is required.

The fact remains, the caseneck expands at firing then is sized back down, then may or may not get expanded up a bit more via a caseneck expander, and finally may or may not get a crimp. The only other failures I've had have been a crack or burnthrough somewhere on the case body and have been VERY rare. If the chamber allows excessive expansion the only thing you can do to increase case life is by annealing on some schedual you've worked out.

...............Buckshot

[lwknight]

One way to help extend case neck life is to properly champher inside and out after trimming.
Any nicks or sharp corners will be a place where work energy will concentrate and start a fissure. Kinda like getting on a tear.

[Poodleshooter]

They're good for getting decent accuracy,like any neck sizing die,but I'm not sure that they prolong life much more than you could get from just being conservative with a FL sizer die and not bumping the shoulder back all the way every time.
I use a FL sizer,and get pretty good case life by just bumping the shoulder back a tad,not as much as in the instructions. I just test a deprimed,sized case in the rifle it will be used in. Usually my belted cases fail just above the belt (they expand so much that the sizer ring binds above the belt when sizing them),rimmed cases like 30/30 fail in the middle (paperclip test usually finds them before they get loaded),and I generally only get very small neck splits after a number of reloads with regular bottleneck headspacing cartridges.

BTW,what they aren't telling you is that chambering will often be quite tight. FWIW, That's been a pain in one or two hunting situations I've been in.

[mpmarty]

Collet neck sizer is a great idea and I use one on all my bottlenecked cases. It saves lubing and cleaning after sizing to remove lube. My AK 7.62 Nato treats brass rather harshly and I have to full length size those cases. Makes me less frustrated by the rifle tossing empties into the next county.

[yondering]

So how about the accuracy claims for the collet die? Anybody here done a comparison of concentricity and bullet runout of ammo made with the collet die vs a common neck sizer die?

Does the collet die have a neck expander button inside like normal die sets, or do you adjust the collet for correct neck tension?

[Hickory]

I started using the collet dies on my 30-30 about 4 years ago. I don't have to worry about collapsing the shoulder and neck area with the thin brass that the older black powder cases have.

I feel also, that the collet die gives a more uniform crimp.
That gives better groups.

I also use the collet die with my 32-20 and love the results there too.

Lee collet dies are the best thing ever for crimping thin wall cases.
And you don't have to worry about over doing it.:wink:

[mpmarty]

Let's not confuse the lee collet neck sizing die with the factory crimp die which also uses a collet type compression device to squeeze the crimp in.

[Jeffery8mm]

Let's not confuse the lee collet neck sizing die with the factory crimp die which also uses a collet type compression device to squeeze the crimp in.

RIGHT!!
Jeff

[Hickory]

I guess I got confused.
Sorry folks.

[Jeffery8mm]

Thats cool, Hickory, A rather enjoyed your applause of the FCD. I have one for 30-30 and 45/70 but have yet to use them. You got me wanting to now!!!
Jeff

[jhrosier]

...
Does the collet die have a neck expander button inside like normal die sets, or do you adjust the collet for correct neck tension?

The collet neck sizing die has a steel mandrel that is just under the boolit diameter.
The fingers of the collet squeeze the neck down until it touches the mandrel.
The only practical way to adjust neck tension is to change the size of the mandrel. If you need smaller, polish it down to suit. If you need larger, the Lee custom shop will make a mandrel to your requirements.

BTW, if you buy a collet die set, read the instructions carefully before starting. It is not adjusted the same as a conventional die.
And never run the ram up on the collet without a case in place or you will crush the collet.

Jack

[Dave B]

Will they work well for a 30-30 lever action Marlin, if used in the same gun?

[405]

So how about the accuracy claims for the collet die? Anybody here done a comparison of concentricity and bullet runout of ammo made with the collet die vs a common neck sizer die?

Does the collet die have a neck expander button inside like normal die sets, or do you adjust the collet for correct neck tension?

I've used them quite a bit alongside the Redding Comp Neck Bushing and Wilson hand dies. One caveat is that if the brass starts out lopsided or has uneven wall thickness NO die will correct it. But, starting with good quality brass the Lee collet die will produce very concentric, neck-sized cases about on par with the Redding and Wilson. In regular dies where the neck button is drawn back out of a resized case that has been taken down a bunch.... you know the ones that bind and grind and require a lot of force to pull back thru.... the neck concentricity will almost always get worse sometimes much worse. I think that stage of re-loading is where most of the runout is created.

I have checked the runout among those types.... the standard with neck button, the Redding Comp, the Wilson and the Lee collet. All things being equal with comparable, high quality brass I can expect, with bottleneck cases, a neck runout range of about .002"- .015" with the standard neck button die. With the Lee collet, Redding Comp and Wilson neck the runout is usually .000"- .002".

For hunting loads where reliability is near the top of the list along side accuracy then chamber checking before hunting is a good idea with neck sized ammo.... and prolly a good idea with any ammo.

The Lee collet die has a tapered mandrel that is case length and is centered in the primer flash hole. Near the top of the stroke the collet squeezes the neck down around the mandrel.

[462]

Dave B,

For a lever-action rifle, you want a full-length sizer, to insure proper feeding.

No doubt, others will disagree.

[yondering]

The collet neck sizing die has a steel mandrel that is just under the boolit diameter.
The fingers of the collet squeeze the neck down until it touches the mandrel.
The only practical way to adjust neck tension is to change the size of the mandrel.

Thanks, that helps. I was wondering if the collet sizer die was similar to the collet FCD, which can be adjusted for the amount of crimp. You answered my question.


In regular dies where the neck button is drawn back out of a resized case that has been taken down a bunch.... you know the ones that bind and grind and require a lot of force to pull back thru.... the neck concentricity will almost always get worse sometimes much worse. I think that stage of re-loading is where most of the runout is created.

I hear ya, and agree 100%. Dealing with the neck button stickiness is the only part of reloading I dislike. I've minimized it by reducing the bearing surface of the neck button and grinding a tiny shoulder into it, but it sounds like the Lee die eliminates that completely.



I have checked the runout among those types.... the standard with neck button, the Redding Comp, the Wilson and the Lee collet. All things being equal with comparable, high quality brass I can expect, with bottleneck cases, a neck runout range of about .002"- .015" with the standard neck button die. With the Lee collet, Redding Comp and Wilson neck the runout is usually .000"- .002".



Excellent post 405! Thanks for the info. It's nice to read details like that from someone who's really done their homework. You've got me convinced, I better buy a few of these dies.



FWIW, the case life issue, while important, can also be improved significantly with an Ackley chamber. I have two, a 6mm Rem Ackley and a 35 Whelen Ackley. In the 6mm, my only case failures have been loose primer pockets after 5-8 loadings, with hot loads. In the Whelen, I have a batch of cases with 14 or more loadings on them, and not a single failure yet. (also with full house loads). Somewhat off topic, just thought I'd contribute to the case life discussion.

[405]

Yes, to the idea that the "shape" and design of the case has a lot to do with longevity. Most of the rimmed carts can have really good longevity. Certain bottleneck varieties, especially with full pressure loads, can have fairly short lives :( Headspace control is usually the culprit. Not normally visible above about 30,000 psi, but very real, is the stretching that happens to those bottlenecks with small and sloped shoulders. That can be compounded by max headspace in any particular gun. The 35 Whelen AI design certainly helps minimize that unseen stretching by increasing the effective headspace datum on the sharper shoulder.

[12glocks]

I have read on other forums that a lot of people have trouble using these. I think if you Google it you will stumble across some forums addressing the issue,

Well I will be the first one to post that I damaged my Lee Collet Sizer die. I adjusted the die per the Lee instructions but my Rockchucker torqued the die (I believe) when my press cammed over.

Apparently these dies work splendidly on Lee presses because they don't cam over. I would like to try and set one up on a Lee press to see what happens.

FWIW, I called Lee and told them I damaged it. They told me to ship it to them, a few days later I got it back repaired at no charge.

[MtGun44]

No lube required, accurately straight neck after sizing, extended brass life compared to
full length sizing, I have had some very accurate loads with the Lee collets.

Will almost certainly not work if you shoot brass in one gun and then Lee collet size and
expect to shoot it in another gun. Could happen, but bet against it.

I like them.

Bill

[jhrosier]

I.... I adjusted the die per the Lee instructions but my Rockchucker torqued the die (I believe) when my press cammed over.....

When I use the collet die in my Rockchucker, I run it in an extra turn more than Lee recommends to keep it further from that point. The die needs very little pressure to properly neck size the case (.308). It is hard to explain, but the amount of pressure that you could apply with your fingers, not the palm of your hand, is enough. There is never any need to stand over the press and put the weight of your body on the handle.

After you have done a few you will start to feel when the collet is in full contact with the neck, and then the slight movement from there to when the inside of the neck touches the mandrel.
No amount of pressure beyond that will change the neck size further, but forcing the press to cam over will collapse the fingers of the collet.

Some of the dies have a rough surface on the collet that will tend to gall and stick in the die. It doesn't hurt to take the die apart before you use it and examine the angled surface of the collet that closes it. If it is rough (common), a bit of hand polishing with some fine abrasive paper will help the mating surfaces slip over each other. When you put it back together, a dab of automotive anti-sieze or stiff grease will keep it working smoothly.


Jack

[Ricochet]

They work very well, until the necks eventually work harden and won't stay squeezed down enough to grip a jacketed bullet. At that point, turning down the mandrel won't help, even taking the mandrel plumb out and letting the collet squeeze completely together won't. The brass springs back. Only annealing it will fix the problem. With larger diameter cast boolits, enlarging necks usually are no problem. I've yet to find a situation where the body of the case expanded and eventually required full length sizing, when the brass is used in one bolt action rifle.

[softpoint]

I have my first set. .22 Hornet for my CZ. The hornet is notorious for short case life, So we will see.No problems loading my first batch of ammo with them:castmine:

[Gee_Wizz01]

I have a box of .303 Brit that has been reloaded 21 times now and I haven't lost a case yet, using the Lee Collet Sizer. They have been annealed twice, as I typically anneal after 10 loads. Using a full length sizer die I could never get 6 loads out of the .303 Brit, but the Lee Collet changed that. I would set the full length sizer so that it just sized enough that the bolt would close with slight resistance, but I still couldn't get the brass to last more than 6 loads. It's also speeds up reloading because you don't need to lube and then clean the lube off.

G

[JSH]

I have used several better mouse traps when it comes to neck sizing.
I tried the collet sizer and one thing i didn't see mentioned above was to keep cases trimmed to an equal OAL length. I found it made a large difference.
I won't say it is a cure all for sizing. I still like the bushing dies a lot better and no lube. Yes they are a bit pricey.
I think the biggest thing on these types of sizers is not dragging the neck back over an expander. It an do crazy things to a neck/shoulder area.
Someone here was using the lee collet die and had trimmed some off of the top of the collet. It left a good enough bell on it so that you didn't need to flare or mdie the brass when done. I have yet to modify my 30-30 die to try this on.

jeff

[mrbill2]

I never liked the way you are suppose to FEEL how much pressure you have on the neck with the Lee Neck Die. I start with a case in the press, adjust the die to hit the shell holder, then I lower the die a little at a time till I get the neck down to the size I want with the press going over center. Lock the locking ring so that you can return the die to that same position each time. Different locking ring than the Lee. With the die adjusted like that I don't have to guess how much pressure I'm putting on the neck, it's the same every time the press goes over center. I've been doing it this way for years and have never broke any dies.

[yondering]

I never liked the way you are suppose to FEEL how much pressure you have on the neck with the Lee Neck Die. I start with a case in the press, adjust the die to hit the shell holder, then I lower the die a little at a time till I get the neck down to the size I want with the press going over center. Lock the locking ring so that you can return the die to that same position each time. Different locking ring than the Lee. With the die adjusted like that I don't have to guess how much pressure I'm putting on the neck, it's the same every time the press goes over center. I've been doing it this way for years and have never broke any dies.

Sounds like the logical way to do it. Lee probably doesn't specify that method because of their lousy locking rings. Those locking rings are a big downfall of Lee dies. I have a pile of Forster rings that I use on Lee dies, works great.

[jhrosier]

... Lee probably doesn't specify that method because of their lousy locking rings. Those locking rings are a big downfall of Lee dies. I have a pile of Forster rings that I use on Lee dies, works great.

I have been throwing away the oring and flipping the Lee locking rings over for many years. They work just like any other ring when you do that.:cool:

Jack

[mrbill2]

I started to drill and tap mine for a set screw. Drop a shot pellet in the hole, then the set screw. I haven't found a use for the O-rings yet.

[ubetcha]

I have used the Lee collet dies for my T/C contender in 30-30 for several years now for Silhouette shooting and have not had to trim any cases per say.If they do,its a very tiny sliver to the point that it could be used as is and not caused a problem.I agree with the locking ring situation and as stated,drill and tap for a set screw.I will have to try the shot insert thing.Never thought of that!
I now have a Lee collet for all my rifle shooting also

[fourarmed]

Two things I have learned about the Lee collet necksizer: When you buy one, disassemble it and put a little grease on the bevel surface of the closer, or you will eventually get galling of the collet and closer bevel which will lead to all sorts of problems such as setting back the shoulder of bottleneck cases. Second, you can reduce the ID of the sized neck almost a thousandth by sizing, turning the case part of a turn, and sizing again.

[Rick459]

So how about the accuracy claims for the collet die? Anybody here done a comparison of concentricity and bullet runout of ammo made with the collet die vs a common neck sizer die?

Does the collet die have a neck expander button inside like normal die sets, or do you adjust the collet for correct neck tension?

this link is why i purchased a Forster Co-Ax press and started using my Lee Collet neck sizers again. fo years using my RCBS RochChucker II and the Lee Collet neck sizer dies i could only get from .003-.005 neck run-out which will still produce accurate ammunition, but now with the Forster Co-Ax and the Lee collet neck dies i get a consistant .001 or less neck run-out and my groups are even tighter. HTH.
Rick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZEas38vkKg

[HangFireW8]

Are the Lee Deluxe Rifle Dies with the Colet neck sizer all they are touted to be?? Lee stated that they come with a full length die and the neck sizer die.

All of Lee's equipment makes better ammo, he said so himself! :smile:

He also said he has gotten returns on this die, but complained that those darn handloaders were comparing their accuracy with already optimized loads, and therefore there was no additional accuracy to be found from his dies.

Darn handloaders.

-HF

[405]

HangFireW8, quote,
"All of Lee's equipment makes better ammo, he said so himself!

He also said he has gotten returns on this die, but complained that those darn handloaders were comparing their accuracy with already optimized loads, and therefore there was no additional accuracy to be found from his dies.

Darn handloaders.

-HF"


I think there is some truth in what you say about some of the Lee marketing. But in my experience, the complaints about relative accuracy are mostly subjective and case specific. There are a few times where it seems Lee has come up with some really good, inexpensive, innovative equipment. While I like the neck collet die..... the O ring non-lock ring and slipping, sliding decapping rod are not two of their better ideas :)

For example: If a competitve BR shooter with good rifle, good reloading equipment- like custom dies, Redding Comp dies or Wilson dies and good knowledge of how to use it all were to take a Lee set with the collet die and try to improve upon the basic accuracy of his loads.... he may well say the Lee collet die loads show no improvement. But if another shooter with decent rifle and comparable shooting skills but reloading with odd mis-matched brass and components and standard dies were to use better components along with better reloading techniques and better dies..... even including the Lee neck collet die..... I would think the answer may be quite different.

Yet another example might be: A shooter who has less than stellar shooting skills and a rifle that is simply not capable of very good accuracy who has always accepted "minute of 5 gallon jug across the gulley" as good-n-uff.... starts using the best components, loading techniques and reloading equipment in the world.... might mumble something like, "Them spendy bulletshells and fancy new fangled dies don't do no better!". :roll:

[HangFireW8]

I agree, there are so many variables, it is amazing that he (Richard in this case) offered any kind of guarantee at all.

I also like some Lee equipment, the handgun full-length factory crimp dies (not the rifle collett Factory Crimp!) are keepers. I have some Lee 9mm dies that I kept meaning to replace but darn it, they work better in my Hornady progressive than my Hornady 38 Super and 45ACP dies do, so why bother replacing them?

I'm also not in love with the O-Ring on the die nuts. Easy enough to replace, though. And more die makers should put wrench flats on their dies as well.

-HF

[DLCTEX]

Dave B; I have used the collet neck sizer for my Marlin 30-30 and have no problems chambering rounds after 4 reloadings so far.This is with cast boolits and mild loads, so I don't know if this will hold true loading hotter jacketed loads, but since the 30-30 is not a high pressure round I'll bet I can reload with the collet die several times before having to squeeze them back down with the full length sizer.