Using neck split rifle cartridge cases

[Wally]

I may well be stirring up a hornets nest with this....

I have accumulated a no. of neck split rifle cartridge cases in the .22-250, .243 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, & the .30-06. As I use these calibers with GC-cast bullets at velocities in the 1,600~2,200 FPS range I decided to shoot a no. of rounds with the neck split cases and another batch with normal cases....surprisingly I found little, if any, accuracy differences. My results were so good that I routinely use them, but I keep them segregated from my "good" brass. I only use in bolt action rifles and I load them "single shot".

[StarMetal]

I may well be stirring up a hornets nest with this....

I have accumulated a no. of neck split rifle cartridge cases in the .22-250, .243 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, & the .30-06. As I use these calibers with GC-cast bullets at velocities in the 1,600~2,200 FPS range I decided to shoot a no. of rounds with the neck split cases and another batch with normal cases....surprisingly I found little, if any, accuracy differences. My results were so good that I routinely use them, but I keep them segregated from my "good" brass. I only use in bolt action rifles and I load them "single shot".

You may get a high pressure gas cut in the chamber where that splits lays. Sort of like a primer leak cuts the bolt face.

Joe

[rob45]

The issue of shooting split necks is no big deal as far as safety goes; after all, it's the case walls near the head with which we're primarily concerned.

I most certainly agree with StarMetal on the issue of gas cutting in the chamber neck.

As to stirring up a hornet's nest, the people of concern are the serious competitors and accuracy buffs. They are about to come out the woodwork and tell you things about neck thickness and concentricity, even pressure characteristics, consistent bullet pull, etc. These things do indeed make a difference in a seriously accurate rifle, so if you're getting nearly identical accuracy with poor ammo, then the rifle itself is not accurate enough to tell the difference between the two grades of ammunition.

Not everyone's accuracy needs are of that extreme, but even so, I would not gamble on the gas cutting theory. Why step over dollars to pick up pennies? Take care of the rifle; don't risk it to save the brass.[smilie=1:

[Ricochet]

That gas cutting thing isn't going to happen. First, you're not going to get the splits consistently lined up as you'd have to do. Secondly, the case body behind the split is going to obturate against the chamber wall, sealing it and preventing gas from escaping. No moving hot gas, no cutting. Even case head separations won't hurt anything, other than leaving stuck case bodies.

The Germans fired lots of separate loaded artillery ammo with a case head and short brass cup behind a bag charge.

[Larry Gibson]

Concur with Ricochet.

Larry Gibson

[AZ-Stew]

U.S. Navy 8 and 16 inch guns used only bagged charges. No cartridge base to seal the breech. The breech block face and its mating surface at the barrel breech were machined for a sealing fit. The breech block and barrel used an interrupted screw thread locking mechanism that forced the two parts tightly together.

Regards,

Stew

[StarMetal]

That gas cutting thing isn't going to happen. First, you're not going to get the splits consistently lined up as you'd have to do. Secondly, the case body behind the split is going to obturate against the chamber wall, sealing it and preventing gas from escaping. No moving hot gas, no cutting. Even case head separations won't hurt anything, other than leaving stuck case bodies.

The Germans fired lots of separate loaded artillery ammo with a case head and short brass cup behind a bag charge.

On a primer leak John it only takes one time. I probably didn't make that clear.

You can't deny it doesn't carbon up the neck area more.

Joe

[StarMetal]

U.S. Navy 8 and 16 inch guns used only bagged charges. No cartridge base to seal the breech. The breech block face and its mating surface at the barrel breech were machined for a sealing fit. The breech block and barrel used an interrupted screw thread locking mechanism that forced the two parts tightly together.

Regards,

Stew

Why not use a muzzeloader as an example?

Joe

[Cannoneer]

U.S. Navy 8 and 16 inch guns used only bagged charges. No cartridge base to seal the breech. The breech block face and its mating surface at the barrel breech were machined for a sealing fit. The breech block and barrel used an interrupted screw thread locking mechanism that forced the two parts tightly together.

Regards,

Stew


You forgot to mention that the breech block on the big guns have a split ring and an obturating ring, made out of a ruber composite material, that seals the breech when the gun is fired. the Obturator forces the split ring to spread and the the obtuating ring expands keeping the propellant gasses in the tube until the scavanger system clears the barrel of gas.

[muleequestrian]

You forgot to mention that the breech block on the big guns have a split ring and an obturating ring, made out of a ruber composite material, that seals the breech when the gun is fired. the Obturator forces the split ring to spread and the the obtuating ring expands keeping the propellant gasses in the tube until the scavanger system clears the barrel of gas.

+1 with Cannoneer. I know about the split rings and obturator too. I was a Marine Corps artilleryman for over a decade..... I had plenty of practice on the M-198 , stripping the breech rings off our guns to clean them on MANY occasions. The type of breech locking mechanism is called a " step threaded interrupted screw. "

Battery G 3rd Bn 10th Marines, and Battery A 1st Bn 12th Marines......

[Ricochet]

On a primer leak John it only takes one time. I probably didn't make that clear.

You can't deny it doesn't carbon up the neck area more.

Joe
A primer leak is a different animal. Yep, that's bad.

[JIMinPHX]

The amount of safety issue depends on the gun you fire the split cases in. An older version of the Spanish Mauser (pre gas vent port) would be a particularly bad choice of gun to use for something like that.

[StarMetal]

A primer leak is a different animal. Yep, that's bad.

The difference in the primer leak is more pressure longer, for one.

Joe

[StarMetal]

You forgot to mention that the breech block on the big guns have a split ring and an obturating ring, made out of a ruber composite material, that seals the breech when the gun is fired. the Obturator forces the split ring to spread and the the obtuating ring expands keeping the propellant gasses in the tube until the scavanger system clears the barrel of gas.

And the big guns have absolutely nothing to do with a split case neck or leaking primer.

Cannoneer, can you explains exactly how the scavenger system works>

Joe

[Ricochet]

But in NO gun is there a safety issue, or a gun damage issue, involved in firing cartridges with (only) a neck split. The only potential problems are with loss of neck tension allowing a bullet to be pushed into the case or pulled out and left in the chamber.

[mrbill2]

Wally, I thought I was cheap but you got me beat. Even I throw them away. If you pay the postage I'll send them to you?

[lead-1]

If there is no neck tension from a split neck then there is a big chance that the case isn't going to build enough pressure to swell the case shoulder to the chamber where it seals the pressure to the barrel side of the neck. If the bullet jumps to the barrel without the case swelling then the pressure can bypass the shoulder and release back into the bolt area, now with the pressure relief hole in the receiver you shouldn't have a problem with the pressure venting into your face, but what if the loss of pressure doesn't force the bullet to leave the barrel and the shooter don't catch it. Then there is going to be a round fired into a round already there causing a bad thing to happen. My understanding is that when you see soot or burn marks on the neck or shoulder then that is a sign of too little pressure or too light of a load. Your milage may vary, this is my understanding, too light can be as dangerous as too heavy and this is why we have minimum as well as maximum load listings.

[Mk42gunner]

And the big guns have absolutely nothing to do with a split case neck or leaking primer.

Cannoneer, can you explains exactly how the scavenger system works>

Joe

Joe, I don't have any experience with the separate (bag) loaded guns. I was under the impression that a scavenger was a muzzle brake designed to evacuate the bore by using the venturi effect.

My guns (MK42 Mods 9 & 10) were semi-fixed. We had gas ejection systems that utilized the ships HP air reduced down to 175 PSI. The breechblock tripped a lever actuating a diaphram on the way down allowing a 6-9 second blast of air through six ports in the breechblock guides. Gas Ejection Air was a disqualifier if it wasn't there during prefire checks. I remember shooting without it once, that was enough.

I also remember the snipes always griped when we shot to starboard.

Robert

[JIMinPHX]

But in NO gun is there a safety issue, or a gun damage issue, involved in firing cartridges with (only) a neck split. The only potential problems are with loss of neck tension allowing a bullet to be pushed into the case or pulled out and left in the chamber.

I respectfully disagree with that statement.

[Ricochet]

OK. What's your proposed hazard of split necks?

[captaint]

Wally - It's just brass. Toss it and get some more. Harmful or not, I wouldn't do that with my guns. Mike

[snowwolfe]

While I am not aware of any safety issues using split neck cases I have to ask why in the world even take a chance?
Bench rest shooters go to great lengths to insure neck tension is uniform to rule out this variable for affecting accurracy. Sorry, but I just can't accept using split neck cases would not affect the accurracy enough to be noticed unless the loads you are shooting were not reasonably accurate in the first place.

[303Guy]

Bench rest shooters go to great lengths to insure neck tension is uniform to rule out this variable for affecting accurracy.So what's the best way to eliminate neck tension variables? Eliminate neck tension!:rolleyes:

Not to 'stir the hornets nest' so to speak but this is exactly what I do in my 22 hornet.:mrgreen: I have a few cases with a split or crack midway in the necks. I reload these along with my good cases and guess what? Those cracks or splits don't even blow out the lube that's in them! (I do not use cases that have splits all the way though!) I continued using those cases just out of curiosity.

I'm with Ricochet.
Gas or flame erosion can only take place if there is actually hot and high velocity gas present. With a split neck, there is hot gas but no velocity. Case pressure build up to seal the case? No problem. Bullet mass and hence inertia causes pressure build up. After all, don't we often hear of folks with sooting around the case necks when the charges are too low? (I had that on Sunday - and the primer confirmed insufficient pressure to seal the neck). By the way, there is no difference between the gas temperature or pressure at the neck crack as there is in the chamber throat area. In fact, maximum gas temperature and pressure is reached long after the boolit/bullet has left the case neck or chamber throat.

However, there is no actual need to use split necked cases and they likely will result in a POI shift if neck or FL sizing.

[JIMinPHX]

OK. What's your proposed hazard of split necks?

As I've stated above, guns with poor/no safety venting in the chamber area.

The neck is usually the place where the gas seal first takes place. If the chamber is oversized in that area, or if the neck is split, then the chances of hot gas escaping around the brass & coming back towards the shooter are increased. This is especially true with low pressure loads, like cast shooters often use. The further below the maximum pressure you run a piece of brass, the less likely it is to make a good seal in the chamber when fired. A split neck makes that problem worse. I quoted the old Spanish Mauser as a particularly bad example, because that's the one that speckled my shooting glasses about a year ago. I later found out that the improved version of that rifle had a gas vent port. When I fired modern commercial ammo in that gun, it shot fine. When I tried some old surplus ammo, that I later noticed had split necks, I got a face full of fire.

[JIMinPHX]

So what's the best way to eliminate neck tension variables? Eliminate neck tension!:rolleyes:


I've reloaded brass that had not been resized at all & fired the loose necked cartridge in a single shot rifle before. The results were OK with fast powders, but the cartridges were tough to handle without pushing the boolits into the case deeper. The results with slower powders like Reloader 15 were dirty & erratic.

[Rodfac]

Can't say I've ever seen damage or even additonal soot in the neck on cases that were fired once. My practice is to sort them before each loading. I can say that I've seen velocity differences twice over the chrono when I had a case neck crack while firing. And it did show on the target...but both were pistol rounds....again can't say how much they would have affected a rifle round. In the two cases mentioned, the difference was over an inch out of the main group at 25 yds. Good discussion on naval and artillery firing...I learn something new each time I loggin. Regards, Rodfac

[jonk]

I will use a split neck case sometimes but usually resize it to something else. So when an 06 neck cracks, I size the case down to 8X57 Mauser. When that cracks, down to 7.65 Argentine.

My rule of thumb is, if the neck crack is between the shoulder and the end of the neck itself- the case mouth if you will- but does not fully split the case, i.e. doesn't quite reach the mouth but is a burn through or whatever on the side of the neck only, I keep using it. As soon as it spreads to the shoulder or all the way to the mouth, I reform if I can or otherwise scrap it.

[largom]

Wally - It's just brass. Toss it and get some more. Harmful or not, I wouldn't do that with my guns. Mike


Agree 1000%

Larry

[eka]

I'm with Jonk, I do the same thing. Split '06 get re-purposed to 8MM. A buddy of mine got a batch of surplus 30-06 military, maybe Greek stuff, one time and they pretty much all split on the first firing. I collected them up, formed them to 8MM, and annealed. They're still going strong.

Keith

[Range Gypsy]

OK guys , you caught my intrest.

I have often fired split neck cases in my 44-40 (pistols and rifles) for practice. And was unaware of potential problems. I really like my guns, and don't want to chance any damage.

I have never heard of a leaking primer. What is this ? I know of some rifles with head space issues that "bump " primers, is this similar? What is the danger of damage to the gun?

~ Range Gypsy

[Wally]

If there is no neck tension from a split neck then there is a big chance that the case isn't going to build enough pressure to swell the case shoulder to the chamber where it seals the pressure to the barrel side of the neck. If the bullet jumps to the barrel without the case swelling then the pressure can bypass the shoulder and release back into the bolt area, now with the pressure relief hole in the receiver you shouldn't have a problem with the pressure venting into your face, but what if the loss of pressure doesn't force the bullet to leave the barrel and the shooter don't catch it. Then there is going to be a round fired into a round already there causing a bad thing to happen. My understanding is that when you see soot or burn marks on the neck or shoulder then that is a sign of too little pressure or too light of a load. Your milage may vary, this is my understanding, too light can be as dangerous as too heavy and this is why we have minimum as well as maximum load listings.

I have never had this happen..no soot marks of any sort... the split neck holds the bullet tighter than obne might think. I don't use for maximum loads either.

[Wally]

Wally, I thought I was cheap but you got me beat. Even I throw them away. If you pay the postage I'll send them to you?

Too cheap as postage is high...btw I won't even mention my using cases with loose primers--I use epoxy to seal them..don't tell anyone else on this forum as it would freak them out---

[Wally]

So what's the best way to eliminate neck tension variables? Eliminate neck tension!:rolleyes:

Not to 'stir the hornets nest' so to speak but this is exactly what I do in my 22 hornet.:mrgreen: I have a few cases with a split or crack midway in the necks. I reload these along with my good cases and guess what? Those cracks or splits don't even blow out the lube that's in them! (I do not use cases that have splits all the way though!) I continued using those cases just out of curiosity.

I'm with Ricochet.
Gas or flame erosion can only take place if there is actually hot and high velocity gas present. With a split neck, there is hot gas but no velocity. Case pressure build up to seal the case? No problem. Bullet mass and hence inertia causes pressure build up. After all, don't we often hear of folks with sooting around the case necks when the charges are too low? (I had that on Sunday - and the primer confirmed insufficient pressure to seal the neck). By the way, there is no difference between the gas temperature or pressure at the neck crack as there is in the chamber throat area. In fact, maximum gas temperature and pressure is reached long after the boolit/bullet has left the case neck or chamber throat.

However, there is no actual need to use split necked cases and they likely will result in a POI shift if neck or FL sizing.

I have used them, as mentioned, with no harmful effects and for my "plate busting" shooting, they are accurate.

[Wally]

I've reloaded brass that had not been resized at all & fired the loose necked cartridge in a single shot rifle before. The results were OK with fast powders, but the cartridges were tough to handle without pushing the boolits into the case deeper. The results with slower powders like Reloader 15 were dirty & erratic.

I use Unique...I would not use a slower burning powder that requires better neck tension for consistency in ignition.

[StarMetal]

OK guys , you caught my intrest.

I have often fired split neck cases in my 44-40 (pistols and rifles) for practice. And was unaware of potential problems. I really like my guns, and don't want to chance any damage.

I have never heard of a leaking primer. What is this ? I know of some rifles with head space issues that "bump " primers, is this similar? What is the danger of damage to the gun?

~ Range Gypsy

Range, if you're talking about a split about 1/16 th long down from the mouth...that doesn't count. Now if you tell me the whole portion that the bullet rests in, you're as the say down South...You're Not Right!

Joe[smilie=s:

[Wally]

While I am not aware of any safety issues using split neck cases I have to ask why in the world even take a chance?
Bench rest shooters go to great lengths to insure neck tension is uniform to rule out this variable for affecting accurracy. Sorry, but I just can't accept using split neck cases would not affect the accurracy enough to be noticed unless the loads you are shooting were not reasonably accurate in the first place.

I have used them enough to know that it is not a safety issue.

As far as neck tension goes---I neck size most of my rifle brass than use a Lyman "M" die to bell the case---by doing so I've found that there is little consistency in the amount of force neccessary to use the "M" die..the case tension in my brass varies quite a bit--so much so, that Ijust pay no attention to it. Some bench rest shooters only neck size the very end of the case just enough to hold the bullet in the case neck.

My accuarcy test is simple--shoot at a steel plate with a rest at 200~250 yards--after sight in, fire five shot strings with regular cases and with neck split cases and record the no. of hits. Time after time the diffeneces were negligible. That did surprise me..btw.

[303Guy]

When I load for the hornet without neck sizing I actually seat the bullet in a paper cup and 'glue' the seated bullet by dipping the bullet end into molten 'waxy lube' which soaks up into the porous paper (paper towel). The lack of neck tension does make a difference. I need a heavier load of Lil'Gun and a heavy bullet to get consistant pressure. Performance is way above what a hornet should deliver. (55gr J-word at ± 2700fps. Plus actually, going by bullet drop). With AR2207/H4227 there is no apparent difference (and no performance advantage).

[AZ-Stew]

You forgot to mention that the breech block on the big guns have a split ring and an obturating ring, made out of a rubber composite material, that seals the breech when the gun is fired. the Obturator forces the split ring to spread and the the obturating ring expands keeping the propellant gasses in the tube until the scavenger system clears the barrel of gas.

Sorry, I never worked on the 16 inch guns and my Gunner's Mate "A" School training was 40 years ago. I don't remember whether they taught us about the additional breech seals. I was just making the point that the Navy guns didn't need the partial cartridge to seal the breech as described by Ricochet.

Regards,

Stew

[gray wolf]

I can't shake my head anymore or I will get dizzy-er than I am .

[StarMetal]

I suggested on my ship we shoot cast loads out of our 5 inchers, but they wanted to take me to the Navy shrink. [smilie=s:
I also suggested shot loads for tanks in Nam....same results.

Joe

[Cannoneer]

And the big guns have absolutely nothing to do with a split case neck or leaking primer.

Cannoneer, can you explains exactly how the scavenger system works>

Joe


IIRC, a Scavenger System forces clean air into the chamber of a large caliber gun to purge the propellant gases from the tube prior to opening the breech.

On a tank or SP Artillery like the M109 series, the gun tube has a bore evacuator mounted on the barrel that is pressurized as the gun is fired and expells a jet of gas toward the muzzle after the pressure in the gun tube drops when the round leaves the tube. At the same time the breech opens up at the end of the recoil and clean air rushes in to help push out the propellant gases so they do not enter the crew compartment.

[Linstrum]

Evacuating the barrel is pretty darned important as already mentioned, since the gases are poisonous besides irritating. In Tenney Davis' comprehensive textbook on powder and explosives chemistry, he lists powder decomposition products and they may contain hydrogen cyanide as well as ever-present carbon monoxide, both equally deadly in tiny amounts, plus the various oxides of nitrogen (major components of smog) and ammonia that are highly irritating. I don't recall all the compounds listed, but just about all of them are pretty unhealthy!

A lot of smokeless powder "exhaust" smells good to me after it gets diluted a bit with air downrange from the muzzle, kind of like a manly perfume.


rl684

[snowwolfe]

Some of you guys are scary in your attempts to save a few pennies:)

[rob45]

...btw I won't even mention my using cases with loose primers--I use epoxy to seal them..

Wally,
Setting aside any differences concerning the use of split necks, if you're tired of gluing in your loose primers, then check out this thread.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=69231

[Cadillo]

OK. What's your proposed hazard of split necks?

My experience in this area is with handguns, so it may not be entirely relevant to this discussion. Back in the late '80's, we were issued .38 Special Blazer ammunition for practice in our .357 revolvers between quarterly qualifications. This ammo was aluminum cased and pure junk. Many of the cases split causing gas cuts in the cylinders.

Two of the officers in my station shipped their personal weapons off for replacemment of the cylinders at the expense of the manufacturer of the Blazer ammo. I had one case to split and it made a nasty gas cut inside that chamber of the cylinder in my S&W Model 66. One was enough for me, and I gave away a bunch of the ammo to other officers who were aware of the problems and risks involved. I never replaced my cylinder and the cut is still there. I think that mutiple occurances would really booger up a chamber.

I scrap anything that looks like it is split.

[lwknight]

What if the case didn't have a neck at all? How would that differ from a split?
I'm referring strictly to safety and gun wear. Not accuracy and bullet holding or any of that.

The case neck itselt barely seals the chamber if at all. The neck almost always has powder residue on the outside, meaning that its job is just to hold a bullet in position till its fired.

[lwknight]

BTW: I throw any of my split cases in the junk. I don't want boolits wallowing around in the mag well because the case neck couldn't hold them in place.

[Oldtimer]

Me too. May or may not be a problem. I been doing this almost 40 years. I've thrown away a good many split neck cases. I dont think I could bring myself to put a case with a split neck in a thousand dollar rifle. They dont cost that much for me to take that chance.

[Ricochet]

I have never heard of a leaking primer. What is this ? I know of some rifles with head space issues that "bump " primers, is this similar? What is the danger of damage to the gun?
Gas leaking around a primer from a deformed primer cup or damaged primer pocket, or from a punctured primer in a high pressure rifle can cut a channel in the face of the breech with a single shot, or can burn away part of the firing pin tip.

I have a hard time believing gas cutting from split .38 Special cases. We've discussed .38 specials in .357 Magnum chambers, and .44 specials in .44 Magnums, at length. They may (and do) foul the exposed part of the chamber, but don't erode it significantly. Some fouling can be very adherent and hard to remove. I wonder if a line of deposited material might have appeared to be a burn?

Believe and do what you are comfortable with. I've fired many cartridges with fully split necks in old milsurp batches of 8mm Mauser, 7.62x54R, and 7.62x25mm. I've never seen any damage to chambers, and the only rounds that have ever "spit back" at me have been from the rare punctured primer or from the low pressure, steel cased Romanian 8mm rounds that don't obturate and seal the chamber. If I run across any more split ones, I'll shoot them, too. Won't hurt a thing.

[303Guy]

Interesting Ricochet.

This leads to the question of rifle case necks that split on firing. How different is that from loading and firing a case that already has a split neck? Wouldn't that imply that waiting for the neck to split before tossing it is kinda pointless?

Just for the record, I do not re-use cases with fully split necks and even the partially cracked ones normally get tossed (partially cracked necks are rare and I have only had that with hornet brass from another rifle).

P.S. Cases don't need to obturate to seal the chamber. Elastic expansion is all that is needed. :kidding:

[lwknight]

I still think that the case neck does nothing more than holding the boolit in place for you while you light the fuse.

[303Guy]

Gas leaking around a primer from a deformed primer cup or damaged primer pocket, or from a punctured primer in a high pressure rifle can cut a channel in the face of the breech with a single shot, or can burn away part of the firing pin tip. Please believe it! Just don't ask me how I know.[smilie=1:

[lwknight]

Once part of the firing pin tip is burned off and leaves half a sharp firing pin, it will puncture everyone of the primers.
So how do you get the firing pin out of a M1 Garand? Just kidding. Don't answer. Thats another story.

[303Guy]

Once part of the firing pin tip is burned off and leaves half a sharp firing pin,I was lucky. No serious damage but I should never commit a crime with that rifle as the forensics boys would have me! P.S. Do not get clever and think you can modify old 303 Brit brass with it's large copper berdan primers to accept shot-shell primers! They fit and work and all that but ...... [smilie=1:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-752F.jpg

[Larry Gibson]

I don't make it a habit to shoot bottle neck cases with split necks more than once. Most such case, found by me, occure when the neck splits while seating the bullet. Or at least that's when I find them as I always do a pre-inspection of cases before sizing. I have always used those for fouler/sighters whether they were cast loads of J bullet loads. They always went to the same zero as non-split neck loads. I've even chronographed a few and the velocities were quite consistent within the ES of that load. I have shot several thousand Turk 8x57 milsurps of which probably 10%+ had split necks. Those who have shot the Turk milsurp know it is loaded right up there as my M43 pressure testing has confirmed.

With handgun straight walled cases I have also shot lots of .38s, .357s, .41s and .44s with the case mouth slightly split.

I also shoot lots of gallery loads out 7.62x54R and 7.65 Argie using cases with split necks. These are expensive cases or are formed from '06 (7.65) and I prefer to get all of the caselife I can out of them. The load is 3 gr of Bullseye under a swaged Hornady/Speer 90 gr HBWC or the Lee TL314-90-SWC. I also use cases which show that speckled circle of incipient case head seperation for these gallery loads. These are single load rounds and I have shot thousands of them in several rifles.

I have not, in all the years I have been shooting such as mentioned found any hint of damage to any chamber of any firearm including the M48 in which lots of split neck full pressure 8x57 loads have been fired. I also have fired lots of full pressure 5.56 and 7.62 NATO cartridges through HK91/G3s and 93s. These are all considerably more expensive than "thousand dollar rifles". For those who don't know the chambers of such rifles have fluted chambers to induce/allow the hot high pressure gas to get between the case and the chamber walls. They do not have erosion or get damaged chambers from such.

I will mention though that I do not shoot those which have a split case lengthwise, bottle necked or straight walled, down below the neck in bottle necked cases or below the bullet in straight walled cases. All can do as they wish for whatever reasoning they come up with. I'm just mentioning what i do and have done for a lot of years without any damage to any firearm or hint of damage to me or any bystanders.

Larry Gibson

[405]

Some of you guys are scary in your attempts to save a few pennies:)

Couldn't have said it better myself. The whole notion of "penny wise- pound foolish" seems to be alive and well in the ranks. Sooner or later Darwin shows up.
:shock:

[TAWILDCATT]

it is an indication that the case has deteriated and the necks split from strain[expanding]or age.the whole case is in question.it has reached its end of life.annealing before it reaches that stage may save it.
I have done many things in past that would not be wise,and got away with it.
why chance it.you know those split cases have fatigued.thats why they split.if the rest of case is brittle do you realy want to play.:coffee:

[Cadillo]

Gas leaking around a primer from a deformed primer cup or damaged primer pocket, or from a punctured primer in a high pressure rifle can cut a channel in the face of the breech with a single shot, or can burn away part of the firing pin tip.

I have a hard time believing gas cutting from split .38 Special cases. We've discussed .38 specials in .357 Magnum chambers, and .44 specials in .44 Magnums, at length. They may (and do) foul the exposed part of the chamber, but don't erode it significantly. Some fouling can be very adherent and hard to remove. I wonder if a line of deposited material might have appeared to be a burn?

Believe and do what you are comfortable with. I've fired many cartridges with fully split necks in old milsurp batches of 8mm Mauser, 7.62x54R, and 7.62x25mm. I've never seen any damage to chambers, and the only rounds that have ever "spit back" at me have been from the rare punctured primer or from the low pressure, steel cased Romanian 8mm rounds that don't obturate and seal the chamber. If I run across any more split ones, I'll shoot them, too. Won't hurt a thing.

Comparing a split case to the use of .38 spl cases in a .357 mag cylinder is apples and oranges and dumbfounding. Even harder believe is that someone would endorse the shooting of cases with split necks as being anything other than unsafe and unsound. I have a hard time believing that someone could make such a statement, not to mention pose for a photo in a Santa hat once past puberty.

Now I know to pass over the posts from the Santa hat man.

Ho Ho Ho! Oh No!

[Ricochet]

I started to respond to that, but why bother? You're not receptive to reason. Carry on.

[303Guy]

That was a bit harsh!

Bad day at work? Happens to all of us. :sad:

Just because many or most of us have had split necks in our rifles with no harm to the chamber or by-standers does not mean that a split neck in a pistol cannot or will not do damage similar to the damage to my rifle's firing pin. Blaser ammo might well cause damage. After all, the original 357 maximums suffered flame cutting of the topstrap directly above the cylinder to forcing cone gap.

[243winxb]

Buy a bore scope and have a look at your chamber. See photos here> http://www.stevekershawfirearms.co.uk/problembarrels.htmlGas cutting or brass shoulder collapse can happen or brass in your face.If the bullets base leaves the case mouth before the nose of the bullet seals the bore, there is extra gas cutting of the chamber throat and leade. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_R-Cutting-S.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/R-Cutting-S.jpg) Hey load this one up again > http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_fireform.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/fireform.jpg) http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_M16A1_20090401_8.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/M16A1_20090401_8.jpg) If the brass neck does not seal the chamber this can happen.> http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_collapsedshoulder.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/collapsedshoulder.jpg) FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS IN RELOADING MANUALS. CRACKED OR SPLIT NECKS ARE NOT TO BE USED. [smilie=b:

[lwknight]

Thats a shoulder spllit. And the eroded bolt face is from a leaky primer pocket, not something to do with neck and shoulder unless its the wrong brass to start with.
What difference does it make whether the neck splits before or after you light the primer?
I still throw split cases in the junk anyway.

[Cadillo]

I started to respond to that, but why bother? You're not receptive to reason. Carry on.

If not drinking the Koolaid you offer, and not cheerfully accepting your insinuation that I made up the story about gas cutting due to split cases in revolver cylinders is the criteria for being tagged "not receptive to reason", I'm Guilty!

Merry Christmas!

[Cadillo]

Back in '84 I was slightly injured by a case failure, when I was offered the chance to fire a friend's new to him handgun. It was not caused by a split case, but rather a case that blew out through the webbing; a different type of failure, but one that will forever make me leery of cases or guns that are suspect for any reason.

The gun was a Colt 1911 .38 Super that had been modified to fire .38spl. wadcutters. The owner had it stoked with some handloaded wadcutters, which worked just fine in his revolver, but as most here know, the .38 spl. case is very thin and weak in the web area, and as a 1911 modified to chamber them lends no support to the web area, loads for this type gun must be on the very low end with regard to pressure.

My friend had fired a magazine through the 1911, then it was my turn. The first shot I fired, I got swatted hard in the face by gas, powder and brass particles. Much of the force of the escaping pressure had been vented back between the slide rails into my prescription eyeglasses and face. I was a bit blackened, and bleeding slightly from having been hit by several small shards of brass. My eyeglasses saved me from what I believe would have been certain blindness. Both lenses were ruined by brass particles that were fused into the glass lenses.

The blown cartridge would have been OK in a revolver, which properly supports the .38 spl. case, but blew because it was fired in a gun not suited for its particular pressure level. The gun was not harmed and later that day the owner fired a box of factory .38 spl. wadcutters through it without incident.

How does this relate to loading ammo with split case necks? It doesn't really, except in a very general way; that being that pressure should always be given its due respect.

I urge everyone to always wear eye protection whenever shooting. But for my eyeglasses that day, I would have been blind for the last twenty-five years.

Merry Christmas and beware the Koolaid! It may be spiked. :-|

[gray wolf]

I can't believe this topic is still alive and well. Perhaps someone will get the message and avoid hurting themselves.
I THINK WHEN WE BREAK THE GENERAL RULES OF SAFETY WE SHOULD NOT BRAG ABOUT IT.
IF IT WORKS FOR YOU GREAT IT'S YOUR FACE AND YOUR LIFE. tHIS SITE IS ABOUT SAFE FIREARM HANDLEING AND PASSING SAFE WAYS TO HANDLE FIREARMS ON TO OTHERS.

Just my thoughts

gw.

[StarMetal]

I can't believe this topic is still alive and well. Perhaps someone will get the message and avoid hurting themselves.
I THINK WHEN WE BREAK THE GENERAL RULES OF SAFETY WE SHOULD NOT BRAG ABOUT IT.
IF IT WORKS FOR YOU GREAT IT'S YOUR FACE AND YOUR LIFE. tHIS SITE IS ABOUT SAFE FIREARM HANDLEING AND PASSING SAFE WAYS TO HANDLE FIREARMS ON TO OTHERS.

Just my thoughts

gw.

I have to agree with that. Do we purposely drive around on tires that a bald and split? No. The cases we use for our firearms are suppose to meet a criteria and split necks aren't one of them. It sounds too that some have shot rifle cases with necks split then just a little more. Soon as I get a split case, zip...in the trash unless I can make it into something else.

Joe

[armexman]

Please do not throw away money; BUT do throw unsafe cases into a recycling container before you have to permanently stop posting to this board (Because you lost your eyesight and there are no Blind-Assitant shooting eye Dogs!!) Save old crushed cases and recoup some money to buy brand-spanking new cases from Graffs, Midsouth, Natchez, your local gunshop (BUT NOT Midway;)) Please their is not a single store on earth that sells brand new eyeballs. Faces yes, but you have to settle for a French Face.

[Ricochet]

People, shooting cases with split NECKS is not violating a "general rule of safety." It's not unsafe.

Cadillo, I offered a possible explanation of your reported chamber damage with split .38 Special cases. You responded churlishly with a personal attack. That was the rejection of reason.

[Wally]

Boy, I sure stirred up a Hornet's nest...many of us have strong opinions and there is nothing wrong with that.

For the record, I use rarely ever use split neck, bottle necked rifle cases with cast bullets...my point was, when I have, I was surprised that they were as accurate as with normal brass.

For those that abhor ever using them..fine by me, just recycle them.

[Cadillo]

People, shooting cases with split NECKS is not violating a "general rule of safety." It's not unsafe.


“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy

[mpmarty]

Split necks do not contribute to proper bullet pull and therefore I won't use them. Split necks cannot provide the same performance as good fresh brass will and this presents just one more variable to be avoided in the search for accuracy. In pistols and revolvers I don't believe there is a danger in using split cases beyond a bit of powder and debris blown around.

[Larry Gibson]

Boy, I sure stirred up a Hornet's nest...many of us have strong opinions and there is nothing wrong with that.

For the record, I use rarely ever use split neck, bottle necked rifle cases with cast bullets...my point was, when I have, I was surprised that they were as accurate as with normal brass.

For those that abhor ever using them..fine by me, just recycle them.

That's alright Wally. I think most here misunderstand that those of us who occasionally shoot cases with split necks do not as a rule do so. We just find that there is not a danger to it...split shoulders, split sides and split case heads we do not use as that possibly does get into the "dangerous" arena. Much ado about nothing......

Larry Gibson

[303Guy]

If the brass neck does not seal the chamber this can happen.
http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_collapsedshoulder.jpgNow here is an interesting thing. I had this effect just once. There was no obvious evidence of gas from the combustion process getting between the case body and chamber wall. That doesn't mean it wasn't the cause but how does one determine what acually happened during firing to cause a case dent like this?

I would suggest that if gas leaking past the neck before it seals is the cause then a split neck would actually prevent this phenomenon. (Just a thought here, not a recommendation or anything).

This thread started out with a simple question regarding the wisdom using split necks. All we have to do is have a discussion. If we think it is unsafe we can explain why we think so. Some of us have anecdotal evidence suggesting there is no danger in it and I think we have all had a split case and have survived to talk about. We have one example of splitting necks (or cases) causing chamber damage and a two case dents with causes that cannot be proved one way or the other (although it is hard to imagine what else could have caused it!)

:Fire: What about case head separation?

If a dangerous gas leak is going to happen this will be it. But here's the rub. I have had several head separations and no evidence of the fact until the breach is opened and only the case head drops out!

Then there is the question of a split necked cases being fired in a rifle that has no gas vent system. Is it the split neck that is dangerous or the rifle without the gas vent?

There are rifles that will direct gas leaks down along the bolt body as well as down the locking lug channels and straight into the shooters face! Those rifles are dangerous and should be treated with great respect. We have an example of a pistol doing that but unfortunately, we do not have any idea of the actual mechanism that caused the injury. (No one had a high speed camera running at the time. Pity but that's the way it normally is).

[lwknight]

Brass is cheap, T
he only thing cheaper is the reloaders themselves.
There is no sense using split brass.
But, still it peeves me to hear all these cock and bull stories about how it will blow your ass off.

[Linstrum]

Let's please remember that this site is one of the best in the world, and it is that way in part because we seek the "light" of knowledge.

We can get "light" without needing to resort to the "heat" of getting personal about one's choice of attire that celebrates a season of peace and goodwill or alluding that what somebody says is comparable to the soft drink used by Jim Jones to assist his followers in committing the tragic mass suicide that occurred in 1978 at Jonestown, Guyana. Those statements have nothing to do with helping us understand the mechanics of how guns work and are not in keeping with the highly positive spirit of this site that has made it one of the foremost gun-related sites in the world.


rl

[dualsport]

Any experiences with surplus ammo that is so old the necks have split but have never been fired like the 1947 Turkish 8mm that I bought a ton of? It's original loading, goes bang most of the time on the first hit. I got several thousand rounds back when it was practically free. The cases are brass, look ok, but some of them have a small split in the neck. Am I messing up my gun with gas cutting?

[lwknight]

You will get some powder residue around the chamber where the neck splits.
You will get some powder residue around the chamber if the neck is not split.
The opinions on this matter are from one extreme to the extreme other.
I can't see it cutting the chamber because its not a by-pass channel for plazma gasses to pass and cut. its just a dead pocket of no brass area.

And half the folks will say the extreme opposite.

[303Guy]

Let's please remember that this site is one of the best in the world, and it is that way in part because we seek the "light" of knowledge.
There is no sense using split brass.Exactly!

A perfect example of what this thread and indeed forum, is about is dualsport's question.

dualsport, I know what I would do but I do not feel at liberty to say. (For starters, I would get flamed by some. Secondly, I just do not know one way or the other!)

I had a batch of ammo for my 25/303 which was splitting half the necks on firing. On inspection I found a few that had already started to split and realised they were made by sizing down factorey 303 Brit ammo whith primers in place so no neck annealing had been done. I pulled the remaining bullets and annealed the necks. I was able to save most of the remaining cases. (I think I dumped the powder).

[Larry Gibson]

Any experiences with surplus ammo that is so old the necks have split but have never been fired like the 1947 Turkish 8mm that I bought a ton of? It's original loading, goes bang most of the time on the first hit. I got several thousand rounds back when it was practically free. The cases are brass, look ok, but some of them have a small split in the neck. Am I messing up my gun with gas cutting?

As I mentioned earlier I have fired several thousand rounds of Turk ammo, including quite a bit of '47, through my "shooter" M48 Yugo. Many of them from all lots (mid '30s to early '50s) had split necks before firing them or the necks split on firing. There is absolutely no indication of gas erosion in the chamber neck or shoulder area. The throat is showing the usual amount of erosion for the number of rounds through this rifle. The rifle was a rebuild with a new rifle when I got it some years back. BTW; a bore scope was used to inspect the chamber and bore. I still have a little over 4 thousand rounds of Turk and Equadoran to shoot in this rifle. That will probably be the end of it's best accuracy but I have an excellent condition K98 barrel to put on it then. Back when the influx of Turk ammo hit I picked up the M48 rifle (I also have one in new condition). For what i paid back then when I shoot up all the milsurp 8x57 ammo and if I also threw away the rifle it would have only cost me $.07 per shot. Wish I had bought a lot more of that ammo back then.

Larry Gibson

[dualsport]

Thanks guys, I'll scratch that off my list of things to worry about. I have limited the use of the unbelievably filthy nasty dirty Turk ammo to one gun, a Turkish Mauser, of course. I had a sweet Lyman receiver sight put on a few years ago, the sight radius now is about six ft., or so. I bust it out at the range, offering guys 5 shots offhand for a dollar! If they hit whatever the target is(like a can or something reactive) they get their dollar back. It's been the source of a lot of fun at my range, I belong to the Yolo Sportsmen's Association north of Sacramento. Even the serious BR guys with a wheelbarrel full of stuff stop shooting to come over and play. These days with the cost of ammo it's fun to be able to hand my kids or friends a bandoleer of ammo and say go for it.

[StarMetal]

Would any writer in a gun rag advise to fire split neck cartridges? I don't think so. Wonder why? I'll tell you why. Liability law suits. I hope some noob cruising the gun forums on the web doesn't come across all our resident experts saying it's perfectly fine to fire split neck cartridges in your firearms and by such weird quirk he does and something goes wrong...........well you know the rest. Ken gets sued. Don't think that could happen? Think again. It's a darn stupid thing to tell anyone, especially any who might be real new to shooting and reloading to do such a thing. I sure as heck wouldn't teach anyone to do. What does the military do with defective ammo upon ammo checks? Huh?

Joe