Selling cast bullets ?

[405WIN]

I am thinking about starting a small side job selling my own cast bullets. Does anyone know if a person would needt to be licensed by the Federal goverment as a Ammunition mfg. to legally sell home cast bullets.?
Details would be appreciated.

[iron mule]

405win you do not need an ffl to sell ammo or reloading componets but you do need one to assemble the componets and then sell the loaded ammo/// but you also need to check your state and local regs about this
mule

[nascarkent]

I think this has been hashed out here before and there is some sort of paper work required for the sale of cast boolits[smilie=f:

[Adam10mm]

Here are the facts from an actual licensed manufacturer that knows the facts, me.

The GCA of 1968 defines ammunition as:


Ammunition. Ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm other than an antique firearm. The term shall not include (a) any shotgun shot or pellet not designed for use as the single, complete projectile load for one shotgun hull or casing, nor (b) any unloaded, non-metallic shotgun hull or casing not having a primer.

As you can see, ammunition also includes components such as bullets, cases, primers, and powder. If you manufacture any of these, example being casting a bullet, you are manufacturing ammunition. If you do it for livelihood and profit, you need to be licensed as a manufacturer.

The ATF's opinion/way they enforce the law, is one incident of selling ammunition or components you manufacture is cause to believe you did it to attempt profit and livelihood. Livelihood can be supplemental income. Selling also includes not only common currency payments but also trades for services, goods, or promises for future compensation. Selling equals compensation. If you are compensated in any way shape or form, you are "selling".

The FFL type you need is a Type 06 Manufacturer of Small Arms Ammunition Other Than Destructive Devices. The fee is $30 for three years.

Also, what a lot of manufacturers don't get is that since you are manufacturing ammunition or components that also gets controlled by the US State Department under the ITAR or International Trade in Arms Regulations.

In a nutshell, it states that manufacturers of ammunition, components, firearms, parts, scopes, etc are all manufacturers of "defensive articles". It does not matter if you are not exporting them. All manufacturers must register. There are no exceptions. The fact that you are only manufacturing articles for civilian use of domestic law enforcement use does not matter. The annual fee for ITAR registration is $2250 per year.

Here's the straight up ITAR code:


Sec. 122.1 Registration requirements.

(a) General. Any person who engages in the United States in the business
of either manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing
defense services is required to register with the Office of Munitions
Control. Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless
register.


Then there's liability insurance. A basic liability policy is a few thousand dollars a year and goes up from there.

So there you have it from someone who has been there, done that. I started my business as a commercial bullet caster in 2006, licensed as an 06 FFL, registered with ITAR as a manufacturer of defensive articles, and insured with a $1 million product liability policy. The legal way and the right way.

[405WIN]

Thanks Freakshow10mm. That is the info I have been looking for.

[mtnman31]

405Win,
If you are dead set on making bullets for money, maybe Freakshow will hire you to manufacture said bullets for him - as his paid employee. That would allow you to make your bullets and he gets to sell them using his license. Send him your resume...:D Freakshow is a nice enough guy, I'm sure as your boss he'll provide you with something nicer than a sweatshop to work in.

BTW - I think that the requirement to register with ITAR is like so many other rules - just there for someone to fleece some money from someone else.

[Shiloh]

Well done Freakshow!!

There it is folks. Some of the regs you must comply with. It isn't pretty.
Possible sticky material.

SHiloh

[Jim]

I think I'll just stick with rollin' an' smo.....uhh, I mean castin' an' shootin' my own.:bigsmyl2:

[peter nap]

Hmmm...I wonder what you have to have to sell bullet shaped sinkers???????

[Shiloh]

Hmmm...I wonder what you have to have to sell bullet shaped sinkers???????

Possibly convincing the powers that be that they are sinkers. The lube grooves are really for attaching the line to. :wink:

Shiloh

[Adam10mm]

405Win,
If you are dead set on making bullets for money, maybe Freakshow will hire you to manufacture said bullets for him - as his paid employee. That would allow you to make your bullets and he gets to sell them using his license. Send him your resume...:D Freakshow is a nice enough guy, I'm sure as your boss he'll provide you with something nicer than a sweatshop to work in.

Trouble is the business operations, ie manufacturing of ammunition, must be done entirely on the licensed premises, so he'd have to move to MI. It's cold and we just got two feet of snow with more on the way.

I do have one member on this board that helps me out when he can which I'm very grateful for, but he's local so it makes it easy and legal.:)

But company policy states you must be armed at all times while on company time. And we get to shoot machine guns and silencers when we get bored. Perks of being an 07 FFL/ 02 SOT.

[mtnman31]

I like your business policies.

I envy those of you who have the good fortune to make a living/business out of a hobby that you love. If only we were all so fortunate. I love my job - but there are other ones that I'd have more fun doing. Someday...

[405WIN]

Trouble is the business operations, ie manufacturing of ammunition, must be done entirely on the licensed premises, so he'd have to move to MI. It's cold and we just got two feet of snow with more on the way.

I do have one member on this board that helps me out when he can which I'm very grateful for, but he's local so it makes it easy and legal.:)

But company policy states you must be armed at all times while on company time. And we get to shoot machine guns and silencers when we get bored. Perks of being an 07 FFL/ 02 SOT.

My wife is from Mich. and would proably love to move back. I like it here so I guess she will have to move without me.

[Matt3357]

What about selling homemade lead shot? Is there anything in there specifying that?

Thanks,
Matt

[Adam10mm]

What about selling homemade lead shot? Is there anything in there specifying that?

Thanks,
Matt
Read what I posted above in post #4. It's already been stated in the federal code.

Here it is again for clarity:


The term shall not include (a) any shotgun shot or pellet not designed for use as the single, complete projectile load for one shotgun hull or casing,
Shot pellets, including buckshot, are not considered ammunition according to the GCA of 1968. Slugs, ie "single complete projectile", are considered ammunition.

Shotgun pellets are not ammunition. Slugs or pellets meant to be the sole projectile are ammunition.

[Matt3357]

Thanks for the info freakshow. I apologize for not catching that the first time I read this post. I can now go ahead with my plans to make a self contained lead shot maker for my Engineering Senior Design project and sell lead shot to the local gun club shooters to recoup some of the investment can go ahead. Thanks again, this Site has yet to disappoint.

Thanks,
Matt

[1874Sharps]

Gentlemen,

The above information (that a license is required to manufacture and sell bullets) just did not quite seem right to me. I called up the BATFE and got the scoop straight from the horse's mouth. That is indeed correct! It makes no sense to me, but that is the law. I guess there is no law that says gun related laws have to make common sense. You are abosoluely right, Freakshow!

[chris in va]

Are you saying the BATFE told you that manufacturing boolits at home requires a license? Or just selling them...

[selmerfan]

Just selling them I hope!!!

[StarMetal]

The ATF's website sucks. It's not easy to find what you're looking for or get a clear easy explanation. From what information I can gather you need an 06 license to manufacture bullets (except armor piercing) for sell. I see nothing about making them for yourself. That's ridiculous what the AFT told the poster. I would expect two things talking to most (not all) ATF agents over the phone: 1. They lie and 2. Most of them don't know their butt from a hole in the ground.

Joe

[45nut]

the atf,,and every other .gov regulations are vague on purpose..............

“There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.” —Ayn Rand

if regs were clear and concisely clear enough to avoid,, well,, see the quote.

[1874Sharps]

I was told by the BATFE on the phone that production of any ammunition components for commercial purposes must be licensed. I did ask in particular if it was OK to make components such as cast boolits for personal reloading and was told that was fine. The only time a license is required from the BATFE is when one is making ammo or ammo components for sale (antique guns excepted).

[Nate1778]

Most of them don't know their butt from a hole in the ground.






Last night while unwinding and reading this post, I had an alcohol induced epiphany. I have heard this term more than once in my life and never really sat down to think about it and its origin.

What circumstances came into play to derive such a comment. What awkward moment from a guy whom had to scratch his posterior and instead scratched the earth.

My final moment of realization was someone probably told someone to stick it where the sun don't shine, and that person stuck "it" in the ground instead. I also realized I had a buzz going on and went to bed.

[Shiloh]

the atf,,and every other .gov regulations are vague on purpose..............

“There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.” —Ayn Rand

if regs were clear and concisely clear enough to avoid,, well,, see the quote.

Gov't regs are vague. This allows them to be interpreted. The words can be twisted, contorted, and morphed to be applied as needed. For the benefit of enforcement, with the odds naturally going to the house.

Shiloh

[Netherwolf]

...The only time a license is required from the BATFE is when one is making ammo or ammo components for sale (antique guns excepted).

I think I'd be leery about what you were told on the phone. Some "antique guns" i.e. those manufacturered before 18... (whatever the year is), use the same style/size projos as "moderen" firearms. Manufacturing & selling 45LC projos for use in an "antique" Peacemaker, for example, might not be seen that way by BATFE. Aside from shot & single projos larger than 50cal, the "antique guns excepted" sounds like a trick bag to me with, as said earlier, the odds in favor of the gooberment house. Just my 2 cents worth.
Netherwolf

[Shiloh]

The ATF's website sucks. It's not easy to find what you're looking for or get a clear easy explanation. From what information I can gather you need an 06 license to manufacture bullets (except armor piercing) for sell. I see nothing about making them for yourself. That's ridiculous what the AFT told the poster. I would expect two things talking to most (not all) ATF agents over the phone: 1. They lie and 2. Most of them don't know their butt from a hole in the ground.

Joe

I would expect two things talking to most (not all) ATF agents over the phone:

1.) They lie.
2.) Most of them don't know their butt from a hole in the ground.

I would tend to agree with this. With emphasis on #2. The agents don't need to know, they do what they are told. This agency is a law unto themselves.

We have heard of the contortions they go to in applying the law.
A semi-auto firearm is altered in an ATF machine shop and is classified as a machine gun for prosecutorial purposes. Evidence against Randy Weaver of Ruby Ridge infamy destroyed, other evidence manufactured. He walks, gets a settlement from the gov't.

Remember the scandal of the two drunk ATF agents in a bar? When told to keep it down, they threw live round of ammo at the bar employee.
What about the pocket knives with the logo ATF, Always Think Forfeiture.

I don't want to tangle with this agency at all. The cards are stacked against you. If charged and prosecuted by this agency, it means prison at the worst,
Bankrupcy and the loss of everything at the least.

Shiloh

[outdoorfan]

Like most aspects of the government these days, they legislate and enforce under the color of law.

[ph4570]

While I have no doubts about the accuracy of freakshow's information. I wonder what it takes to get BATF modivated to go after someone (not that I intend to push that envelope). How many sellers on various forums, online auctions etc. do you suspect have the proper paperwork in place? Were the BATF to go after them all Nobama would have to swell the BATF staff enormously. But then mayhaps Nobama would like that -- job generator.

[bigboredad]

thanks a ton freakshow you probably just saved me a ton of headaches and money

[KYCaster]

I wonder what it takes to get BATF modivated to go after someone (not that I intend to push that envelope).


I can tell you about a case involving a friend of mine. It takes a call to the BATF from a "concerned citizen" with an accusation. In this case it was "He's selling machine guns".

Based on that tip alone, the ATF raided his home at 3:00 AM and confiscated every gun related object they could find, a collection of knives and martial arts paraphenalia, a couple of computers and anything else that looked like it might contain files or documents.

After nearly eight years, with failing health and failing finances he finally plead guilty to one count of selling a handgun out of state, just to end the ordeal.

And what started all this?....he traded a Dan Wesson revolver to man he worked with and the guy used it to kill himself. The guy's mother made the call to ATF.

BTW....in the stuff they confiscated they did find a Glock magazine that was stamped "law enforcement only". This was while the capacity limit was in effect and the mag was in a box-of-stuff that he had taken in a trade and he was not aware that it contained the illegal mag.

There's a whole lot more to this story than I've written here, but the point is, the raid was based on a false tip from someone who had an axe to grind and the illegal magazine was enough evidence to allow them to scrutinize everything he had ever done.

So it seems to me it doesn't take much to get their attention.

Jerry

[chris in va]

How about this...can you GIVE someone boolits as a gift if they pay shipping?

[MOUNTAIN MIKE]

Hello.

You boys are so afraid of batf.why? You get trouble when you look for trouble is whati have learned in my lifetime. Many people are happily engaged in selling bullets-cast or swages- and are making a few bucks with it.

E-mail dave corbin at corbin swage site and he will give you the low-down.

The $10.00 per year for a 3 year liscense is fair enough so quite looking for excuses for not doing something.you may not get rich doing casting but you will have good memories of the people you meet.

One last question-what would you consider being the best seller of a cast bullet? .308, 9mm,38spec hbwc,.700 monster bullet ?

Thanks,mountain mike

[mpmarty]

Years ago I had an FFL license and ran a store. My dealings with the BATF were all good. They were quick to answer questions and I never had any problems with them. Treat 'em like cops and ya do fine.

[Willbird]

BATF does not enforce the ITAR rules, they DO jam up people who have an FFL and do not follow the ITAR rules because if you have an FFL you must be in compliance with all OTHER federal, state, and local regulations as well.

ANOTHER thing about ITAR is not only do you need to have it to sell cast bullets, you need to have it to make and sell bullet MOLDS or any other tools or equipment that is used to make things that require ITAR.

Bill

[Adam10mm]

Hello.

You boys are so afraid of batf.why? You get trouble when you look for trouble is whati have learned in my lifetime. Many people are happily engaged in selling bullets-cast or swages- and are making a few bucks with it.
There's a difference between doing something and doing something legally.

[Willbird]

Hello.

You boys are so afraid of batf.why? You get trouble when you look for trouble is whati have learned in my lifetime. Many people are happily engaged in selling bullets-cast or swages- and are making a few bucks with it.

E-mail dave corbin at corbin swage site and he will give you the low-down.

The $10.00 per year for a 3 year liscense is fair enough so quite looking for excuses for not doing something.you may not get rich doing casting but you will have good memories of the people you meet.

One last question-what would you consider being the best seller of a cast bullet? .308, 9mm,38spec hbwc,.700 monster bullet ?

Thanks,mountain mike

An FFL is no big deal, but $2250 per year for ITAR IS a big deal.

[deltaenterprizes]

BATF does not enforce the ITAR rules, they DO jam up people who have an FFL and do not follow the ITAR rules because if you have an FFL you must be in compliance with all OTHER federal, state, and local regulations as well.

ANOTHER thing about ITAR is not only do you need to have it to sell cast bullets, you need to have it to make and sell bullet MOLDS or any other tools or equipment that is used to make things that require ITAR.

Bill

When did ITAR go into effect? I had 06 FFL for 12 years starting in 1985 and there was none of anything you are refering to regarding hand casting bullet casting equipment, only automated equipment. It is considered ''war machinery". I did business with at least 4 commercial loaders and NONE of them had any ITAR paper work.
I just sent a manual casting machine that produces 1500/hr to Sweden and there was no problem exporting it.

[Adam10mm]

ITAR went into effect in 1976 during the Cold War and was implemented under Ford to control certain articles and technologies to the Eastern Bloc.

[Willbird]

ATF has just recently started beating the drum about ITAR, only within the last 10 years, with increasing pressure as we got closer to present times. This is a thinly veiled attempt to force smaller mfg out of gun related business's. if you read the ITAR regs the ONLY exemptions are for shotguns and ammo for sporting use, none for sporting or defense use small arms.

The owner or Ranch products that makes moon clips for revolvers got jammed up because he was not ITAR registered.



State Dept. Cracks Down on Moon Clips

by Dave Workman
Senior Editor

Gun accessories manufacturer Steven Crawford has a problem, and anyone familiar with revolvers designed to chamber rimless pistol cartridges may find his sad tale simply astonishing.

Crawford is apparently in trouble with the US Department of State for manufacturing, and offering for export, moon clips—the thin, flat accessory into which rimless pistol cartridges are clipped so they may be used in revolvers. Even that isn’t quite accurate, because not all of the moon clips he produces under the Ranch Products banner are considered taboo, just some of them. All of this leaves Crawford scratching his head nervously, and his moon clips classified as “munitions” under the State Department’s International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR).

Topping off his woes, Crawford fears the State Department could actually declare him to have been out of compliance with the regulation since Ranch Products first began stamping out the innocuous metal cartridge clips, and that was way back in 1975. If that is the case, the agency could assess his company for “unpaid fees” dating back over 25 years.

Crawford’s problem with the State Department began in July of last year when the agency’s Office of Defense Trade Controls notified Ranch Products by mail that, “This office has reason to believe that Ranch Products is involved in the manufacture and/or exporting of defense articles.” What led that office to reach its conclusion was a visit to the Ranch Products website.

In the July letter signed by Delores T. Kinard for Branch Chief Deborah Carroll, Crawford was warned, “The failure of manufacturers and/or exporters to register and maintain their registrations with this office constitutes a violation of the Arms Export Control Act and the International Traffic in Arms Regulations and could result in criminal penalties of 10 years imprisonment and/or $1,000,000 in fine plus administrative penalties of $500,000. It is recommended that your firm register immediately.”

Crawford quickly fired off a reply to Carroll, noting, “As far as Ranch Products can determine, none of our civilian after-market loading tools, accessories, or cleaning/disassembly items have any connection or use with defense articles or defense services.”

Kinard responded to that letter, advising Crawford that, “I would advise that products manufactured and/or exported do not have to be be Significant Military Equipment to require registration and licensing. Accordingly, this office still strongly believes that registration is required and recommends that Ranch Products register immediately.”

Gun Week’s calls to the State Department were not returned by press time.

Ranch Products is based in Malinta, OH. Since 1975, the company has produced a full selection of moon clips for 9mm, 10mm, .45 ACP and .38/.357-caliber revolvers. Moon clips have been around since early in the last century, when they were used to adapt large-frame Colt and Smith & Wesson Model 1917 revolvers to accept .45 ACP cartridges. The company also produces a line of specialty loading and unloading tools, a complete selection of magazine releases for Ruger firearms, slide releases for Glock pistols, and specialty scope mounts for Ruger 10/22, Mini-14 and Mini-30 rifles, plus Mauser and SKS rifles.

According to a letter sent to Crawford by the State Department’s Carol B. Basden, Ranch Products’ moon clips, extended releases and scope mount bases are “subject to the licensing jurisdiction of the Department of State. . . .” The letter also stated that, “The items are designated as defense articles under Category I(h) of the United States Munitions List.”

When Gun Week checked the Munitions List on the State Department’s website, Category I(h) was listed only on a somewhat obscure link to the Federal Register. It was apparently added as an amendment to the List in April of last year. That subsection specifically refers to “Components, parts, accessories and attachments for. . .” arms as defined in earlier subsections. Included in those definitions are “firearms or other weapons . . . having a special military application regardless of caliber.”

The .45 ACP moon clips were originally designed to fit Model 1917 revolvers, which were military handguns early in the last century.

Crawford told Gun Week that he had sent the State Department nine copies of a nine-page report—apparently as required by the agency—explaining exactly what his products are, along with samples. Enroute, he said, the US Postal Service irradiated the package to check it for anthrax. He sent this “request for commodity jurisdiction determination” on Sept. 30, 2002. He did not get a reply until Jan. 22 of this year.


Under the State Department guidelines, according to Basden’s letter, Ranch Products needs to register with that agency under the tenets of the Arms Export Control Act and ITAR, which requires such registration of “anyone who engages . . . in the business of either manufacturing or exporting defense articles. . . .”

Ranch Products offers these moon clips and other accessories for international sale. This is where their products fall under the State Department’s jurisdiction.

Crawford contended that the term “accessories” is “very loosely defined” by the State Department. Curiously, the agency does not require licensing of loading tools for .22-caliber pistols and an unloading tool for the removal of empty cartridges from moon clips, explaining that “These accessories do not enhance the usefulness, effectiveness, or capabilities of the firearm.”

Evidently, the agency is only concerned with accessories or after-market parts that may be “critical to the proper functioning/operation of the firearm.”

Crawford has contacted attorney Stephen Halbrook at the suggestion of the National Rifle Association in an effort to straighten out this problem.

[fourdollarbill]

Gov't regs are vague. This allows them to be interpreted. The words can be twisted, contorted, and morphed to be applied as needed. For the benefit of enforcement, with the odds naturally going to the house.

That is somewhat true. If you want to read it here are the ABC's of the US Code complete from beginning to end (definitions to penalties) just for making and selling cast lead bullets.

NOTE: This is a personal digest intended to keep my a$$ out of jail and should only be used to answer one question. Can I make cast bullets and sell them legaly.

Here it is...

United States Code
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 44 - FIREARMS
Section 921. Definitions
Section 922. Unlawful Acts
Section 923. Licensing
Section 924. Penalties
Section 925. Exceptions: Relief From Disabilities
Section 925A. Remedy For Erroneous Denial Of Firearm
Section 926. Rules And Regulations
Section 926A. Interstate Transportation Of Firearms
Section 927. Effect On State Law
Section 928. Separability
Section 929. Use Of Restricted Ammunition
Section 930. Possession Of Firearms And Dangerous Weapons In Federal Facilities
Section 931. Prohibition On Purchase, Ownership, Or Possession Of Body Armor By Violent Felons



Section 921. Definitions

(a) As used in this chapter -
(1) The term "person" and the term "whoever" include any
individual, corporation, company, association, firm, partnership,
society, or joint stock company.

(10) The term "manufacturer" means any person engaged in the
business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of
sale or distribution; and the term "licensed manufacturer" means
any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

(17)(A) The term "ammunition" means ammunition or cartridge
cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in
any firearm.

(21) The term "engaged in the business" means -
(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who
devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as
a regular course of trade or business with the principal
objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or
distribution of the ammunition manufactured;

(22) The term "with the principal objective of livelihood and
profit" means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of
firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary
gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating
a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit
shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and
repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal
purposes or terrorism. For purposes of this paragraph, the term
"terrorism" means activity, directed against United States persons,
which -



Section 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful -
(1) for any person -

(B) except a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, to
engage in the business of importing or manufacturing
ammunition, or in the course of such business, to ship,
transport, or receive any ammunition in interstate or foreign
commerce;


Section 923. Licensing

(a) No person shall engage in the business of importing,
manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or
manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with
and received a license to do so from the Attorney General. The
application shall be in such form and contain only that information
necessary to determine eligibility for licensing as the Attorney
General shall by regulation prescribe and shall include a
photograph and fingerprints of the applicant. Each applicant shall
pay a fee for obtaining such a license, a separate fee being
required for each place in which the applicant is to do business,
as follows:
(1) If the applicant is a manufacturer -
(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices
or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year;
(B) of firearms other than destructive devices, a fee of $50
per year; or
(C) of ammunition for firearms, other than ammunition for
destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $10
per year.


Section 924. Penalties

(a)(1) Except as otherwise provided in this subsection,
subsection (b), (c), or (f) of this section, or in section 929,
whoever -
(D) willfully violates any other provision of this chapter,
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than five
years, or both.

[1874Sharps]

The answer to the above question is yes. If I were going to sell cast bullets as a commercial enterprise, I would get the required license, pure and simple. This does not mean that you have to have a license to sell an occasional box of boolits as long as you are not engaging in this enterprise for livelihood purposes. This is akin to selling firearms: You and I can sell a firearm here and there, but we must have a FFL to do so commercially. Where is the line between hobby and livelihood? I am sure it is not a clearcut delineation. One thing for sure, though, I do not want to see how close to this vague line that I can operate and get away with it because if the BATFE happens to not see things my way it will mean much money and grief and possible imprisonment. Why not just get the license if there is any question and be well within the lines of legal conduct? I know, I do not like intrusive baloney laws either, but perhaps this is not the front lines of that battle.

[Frankd]

EVERY single response to this thread has been about a required FFL 06. BUT all of you don't realize you actually need TO BE REGISTERED with the US State Department because manufacturing bullets IS what they consider a "defense article". Some misinformed people say this registration is ONLY for exporting or exportation. NO. That IS NOT correct. If you manufacture BULLETS, cores, brass casings, primers, propellant etc etc..( whether or not you export ) you NEED to be registered WITH the DDTC US State Department Directorate. This IS FEDERAL LAW and YOU can go straight to Federal prison for NOT registering.

This is printed RIGHT on their website:

"All manufacturers, exporters, and brokers of defense articles, related technical data and defense services as defined on the United States Munitions List (Part 121 of the ITAR) (http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/documents/official_itar/ITAR_Part_121.pdf)(PDF, 7MB) are required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC). Registration is primarily a means to provide the U.S. Government with necessary information on who is involved in certain manufacturing, exporting and brokering activities. Registration does not confer any export rights or privileges, but is a precondition for the issuance of any license or other approval for export.

Manufacturers/Exporters

Per ITAR §122.1, any person who engages in the United States in the business of either manufacturing or exporting or temporarily importing defense articles or furnishing defense services is required to register with DDTC. Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless register.
Note: U.S. distributors and other U.S. persons exporting parts and components and other defense articles and services outside of the United States are considered to be exporters.


AND under the article 121.1 Category III it CLEARLY describes BULLETS as "defense articles" - "The components, part, accessories and attachments controlled in this category include, but are not limited to cartridge cases, powder bags (or other propellant charges), bullets, jackets, cores, shells (excluding shotgun shells). PLEASE BE AWARE you cannot legally manufacture BULLETS for sale as a business within the USA WITHOUT registering with the DDTC.
The current annual registration fee is a minimum $2,250

[Frankd]

Please follow the Federal Laws and stay out of prison

[waksupi]

The way that reads, if you are going to roll a boulder down a mountainside, you would even need to register the boulder.

[fredj338]

Hmm, sell the cast bullets unlubed, then they are not completed projectiles? To sell a box here or there to friends for all cost, probably not an issue. Sell 1000s a year, it's a business. Better have your papers. It's a sad state of affairs, but we are really not free men anymore.

[bhn22]

Hmm, sell the cast bullets unlubed, then they are not completed projectiles? To sell a box here or there to friends for all cost, probably not an issue. Sell 1000s a year, it's a business. Better have your papers. It's a sad state of affairs, but we are really not free men anymore.

You noticed too, eh?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

EVERY single response to this thread has been about a required FFL 06. BUT all of you don't realize you actually need TO BE REGISTERED with the US State Department
...SNIP...



Please follow the Federal Laws and stay out of prison
Frank,
Greetings and welcome to the best castboolit website.
You've posted a couple of very interesting first posts, for a new member.
Is there anything else you'd like to tell us about the business of selling cast boolits ?
Thanks,
Jon

[PS Paul]

So you're saying that with the FFL 06, you're good to go then?

[Frankd]

""Frank,
Greetings and welcome to the best castboolit website.
You've posted a couple of very interesting first posts, for a new member.
Is there anything else you'd like to tell us about the business of selling cast boolits ?
Thanks,
Jon""

--------------
^ Yes. Thank you, Jon. I would also like to add the US State Department link where you all can be PROPERLY informed and stay legal. I noticed there are too many bullet company's selling bullets on the internet that seem to have no clue and are doing business on borrowed time. Ignorance or not knowing the law is no excuse for violating the law. Even bullet casting machine and mold manufacturing companies. They ALL need to be registered because they ALL manufacture "defense articles" or the machines, tools, and accessories FOR the manufacturing of or for "defense articles"

Go here: http://www.pmddtc.state.gov

The US State Department will be very soon tracking down everyone involved in this business and back fees/fines after arrest and prosecution will be expected. If you already know the laws regarding keeping your FFL06 current and active and in good standing, you'll already know the BATF requires ALL other laws to be followed in the conduct of your bullet manufacturing business. If you fail to register, you are automatically in violation of the requirements to keep a valid active FFL06.

If you are arrested and prosecuted for violating this required registration, you'll most likely permanently lose your FFL06.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

snip...
The US State Department will be very soon tracking down everyone involved in this business and back fees/fines after arrest and prosecution will be expected
...snip
Frank,
I clicked on your State Dept. Link
"New Items and Announcements" comes right up.
Nothing mentioned there like you claim in the statement I quoted ???
Do you have any 'confirmation' of this seemingly inside information you'd like to share ?
Jon

[cajun shooter]

Frankd, It seems mighty strange to me that a new member would come to this site and have his first postings concerning the possibility that many of the members are breaking the law.
What happened to, "What's the best mold to buy and where can I buy my lead?
Frankd, Do you a have a membership with any of the anti gun groups or work at a Government Office of any kind or retired from these offices? Later David

[ascast]

" Antique " firearm... what does that means exactly ?? 50 years old? pre 1898 ??

can someone clarify?

thanks

[dondiego]

If you have to go to prison...........a Federal prison is best. My father worked at one for 20 years. Cable TV, workout gym, dental, medical care, good food.....

[texassako]

Interesting first post since the first thing you did was pull up a random 5 year old post on selling cast bullets you had to search for just to tell someone who has not even logged on to the forum since last September to keep their nose clean. I guess this section has nothing to do with what we do here:
(3) Equipment and tooling in paragraph (c)
of this category does not include equipmentfor hand-loading ammunition.

[Frankd]

"Frank,
I clicked on your State Dept. Link
"New Items and Announcements" comes right up.
Nothing mentioned there like you claim in the statement I quoted ???
Do you have any 'confirmation' of this seemingly inside information you'd like to share ?
Jon"

---------

^ Yes. There is one other thing I would like to add, Jon.
The word BULLETS is spelled BULLETS not "BOOLITS" .. I would think grown educated people would at least know that. Seriously, if I had a choice of doing a monetary transaction with a business with the name "Boolits" in it's company name, I would buy elsewhere.

It's like buying a car at your local Chevrolet dealer that has a sign that says: Chevroolet Cars For Sale!!!
NO way I'm buying from that rube.

With a website, it's perfectly fine to have that kinda name, BUT to see grown seemingly educated adults actually USING that spelling in their writing ?? ..oh good lord

And NO I am NOT anti gun. I am a pro Second Amendment citizen.

[11B-101ABN]

How do the above rules and regulations apply to this example: A shooter who reloads and casts bullets from lead alloys, dies and the executor of his estate finds in the inventory several boxes of loaded and reloaded live ammo, cast bullets, commercial primers, commercial powder, and brass. Clearly this is a one-time event. Can the executor sell this stuff without fear of prosecution?

[coffeeguy]

Shouldn't be a problem. It's kind of like driving two miles per hour over the speed limit...Technically, it's breaking the law, but it's highly unlikely to be prosecuted. Like others, I'm not advocating breaking the law, but pointing out that if everyone complied with every single law and regulation out there, every second of the day and night, life would grind to a halt.

Unless it's Charlton Heston's vault, it's highly unlikely the BATFE would interest themselves in an estate sale...Good question, though!

P.S. Don't feed the trolls.

P.P.S. Boolits. Boolits. Boolits. :p

[TXGunNut]

I bought a Chevy from a Chevrolet dealer once. Last I heard the State Department wasn't much interested in domestic commerce but they all seem to be writing their own rules these days. Sounds a little odd to me. Doesn't matter, I can't seem to cast as many BOOLITS as I need. I don't have any for sale.

[62chevy]

The State Department has been talked about many times. And if I'm not selling Boolits then why should I care.

[sbowers]

The US State Department will be very soon tracking down everyone involved in this business and back fees/fines after arrest and prosecution will be expected. If you already know the laws regarding keeping your FFL06 current and active and in good standing, you'll already know the BATF requires ALL other laws to be followed in the conduct of your bullet manufacturing business. If you fail to register, you are automatically in violation of the requirements to keep a valid active FFL06.

If you are arrested and prosecuted for violating this required registration, you'll most likely permanently lose your FFL06.[/QUOTE]

Frankd please show where you got bit this information as it seems highly unlikely and I can find nothing to confirm your claims.
Steve

[pmer]

Has anyone seen those cartridge key chains for sale? Where a bullet is seated in an empty brass and it has a chain coming out of the primer pocket. Is that legal?

[waksupi]

Has anyone seen those cartridge key chains for sale? Where a bullet is seated in an empty brass and it has a chain coming out of the primer pocket. Is that legal?


It is in America! My part of it, anyway.

[dragon813gt]

I'm having a very hard time thinking mold makers need to pay ITAR. I have purchased many from out of country and they are listed as "hand tools". I know most of you know who this maker is. Do not mention his name or company. This new poster seems to be up to something and I don't want to give him any information.

[oneokie]

We have been spelling it boolits for 9 years and 11 months. A few have complained about our spelling, they did not make any progress, and left on their own accord when it became very clear that we were ignoring their whining.

[fishhawk]

If people can't realize that the term we use "boolit" differentiates the difference between a jacketed bullet and a cast projectile for ease of conversation well that's just to bad we aren't changing it just for them.

[pmer]

It is in America! My part of it, anyway.

Sorry, I should've been more precise. In the spirit of this thread the key chain seller would be including a projectile in the sale of the key chain. That's what made me wonder if I would have to have the above forms.

I was just wondering because I squeezed down a .38 SPL to 9MM and seated a 124 grain FMJ in it and stuck it on my key chain. Funny thing is I learned a new word from my wife though... She said it looked "phallic" LOL and I had to look it up. :smile:

[coffeeguy]

Yeah, I think the guy was trolling...Any credible source would be able to cite where his information came from. And...'Boolits'? I wonder if he refuses to buy 'Kleenex', 'Krispy Kreme Donuts', 'Mello Yello'...Hey, whatever floats his boat. I'd rather be learning and sharing knowledge about boolits.

[BAGTIC]

Just don't take them into an airport or school, etc. I had a bottle opener made by decapping a .50 BMG case, drilling out the primer pocket, inserting a snap swivel through the flash hole, and cutting an angled slot above the base of the case to grasp a bottle cap. Got me in trouble at the airport. They insisted it was ammunition. I assume if I had been in possession of one of the interior decorator cow bells or brass candlesticks made of recycled brass artillery cases the would have grabbed me for being in possession of ordnance.

[flyingmonkey35]

Just don't take them into an airport or school, etc. I had a bottle opener made by decapping a .50 BMG case, drilling out the primer pocket, inserting a snap swivel through the flash hole, and cutting an angled slot above the base of the case to grasp a bottle cap. Got me in trouble at the airport. They insisted it was ammunition. I assume if I had been in possession of one of the interior decorator cow bells or brass candlesticks made of recycled brass artillery cases the would have grabbed me for being in possession of ordnance.
Lol at what point dose a Cane become a weapon? Or how long can my walking stick be before its no longer a stick?

Is that a bolo tie or a garrotte?