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chemist308
12-05-2009, 11:45 PM
I've got to be missing something here. I'm looking at load data for 9mm, 38 special and 357 magnum. Everyone I'm hearing from is telling me that the 38 has better "stopping power" than the 9mm. The 9 mm has a shorter case, and will cost me an extra full grain (nearly 30% more) of Bullseye powder.

Now consider this. The shorter case alone will create higher pressure with same powder weights. But we're also adding more powder to this equation. I swear I'm not looking for a caliber war here, but why is the 9mm taking so much flack that weaker cartridges are being placed ahead of it?

Johnch
12-06-2009, 12:21 AM
I have had this debate bebate with guys before

IMO the only thing that may make the 38 a better stoper
Is the meplate of the 38 , compaired to the normal rounded profile of the 9mm

But with proper jacketed hollow pointes
IMO they are equal , but then the wonder 9 part comes into play
5 or 6 38's compaired to the 12 - 16 rnds in amny 9 MM's

That allows the under trained officer spray and pray
As not long enough 2 of Toledo's finest shot 32 times at 20-30 feet to hit the guy 2 times

John

Bloodman14
12-06-2009, 01:03 AM
I tried to qualify with a Beretta 92F (M9) while in the Army; if it wasn't for gravity, I couldn't hit the ground. It was the most INACCURATE pistol I've ever tried to use. If I recall, only 5 guys even hit the target.

blaster
12-06-2009, 01:17 AM
I qualified expert several times with the M9, I have a stock 92FS which is the same gun and it is one of the most ACCURATE pistols I have ever used. I can run 100 rounds through it at 25yd offhand and hold 3" minus a couple of fliers.

As far as powerful enough I think it is plenty powerful. If you want to go all the way try 6.9gr of v3n38 behind a 147gr XTP for aboout 1200fps. If you can find a 38 special load that can do that I'd like to see it, that is near 357magnum performance. I guess it still can't have the "stopping power" the saami spec 38 with its 11gr heavier bullet at 1000fps.

In whoever told you that's defense the 38 does look more powerful.

357maximum
12-06-2009, 01:36 AM
The 9mm is very common.. it is a decent/good round...but boring. Either one with a flat meplated boolit will do similar damage. Personally I find most revolvers easier FOR ME to be accurate with than MOST autopeestols, but there have been excepttions.

My biggest like of the 38special over the 9mm........I DO NOT HAVE TO CRAWL AROUND TO GET MY BRASS BACK........that one little fact alone has led most of my semi auto anythings into someone elses safe.


Common/boring causes alot of XXXX to be slung around about any given caliber.

comparing terminal damage cause by the 38spcl vs 9mm is like comparing deer killing power of the 308 vs 30/06..........the difference is basically nil but there will be strong opinions on both sides.

If common sense had anything to do with anything they COULD have stopped designing auto pistol cartridges with the 45acp, revolvers with the 45colt or the 38/44 and rifle cartridges could have stopped evolving with the 7X57 mauser...........humans are odd creatures.........good thing...think how boring it would get without the "need" to find the next great cartridge.

Marlin Hunter
12-06-2009, 02:04 AM
I tried to qualify with a Beretta 92F (M9) while in the Army; if it wasn't for gravity, I couldn't hit the ground. It was the most INACCURATE pistol I've ever tried to use. If I recall, only 5 guys even hit the target.


That has more to do with military firearms then the 9mm round or the Beretta pistol (I don't think to favorably at the 92F, which to me is an up-to-date P-38). Most of those pistols have had ten's of thousands of rounds through them not to mention how many times they were dropped. You should have seen what my M-16 looked like. It had actually been run over with a Bradley.

Marlin Hunter
12-06-2009, 02:19 AM
I've got to be missing something here. I'm looking at load data for 9mm, 38 special and 357 magnum. Everyone I'm hearing from is telling me that the 38 has better "stopping power" than the 9mm. The 9 mm has a shorter case, and will cost me an extra full grain (nearly 30% more) of Bullseye powder.

Now consider this. The shorter case alone will create higher pressure with same powder weights. But we're also adding more powder to this equation. I swear I'm not looking for a caliber war here, but why is the 9mm taking so much flack that weaker cartridges are being placed ahead of it?



With factory SAAMI spec ammo, the 9mm is about 200 fps faster than the 38 special (for 125 grain boolit). That sorta translates to more penetration, more kinetic energy, more velocity for expansion of hollow points. The 38+P rounds are about equal. The real benefit is that a semi-trained person can fill someone up with twice the lead in the same amount of time as with a 38 special.

A .22 LR that hits its target is more effective than a .44 magnum that misses.

Echo
12-06-2009, 02:32 AM
My experience with the Beretta 9 is limited to my foray back to Perry in '05. SAFS included shooting the Army gun, and both I shot were ***'s. Shot non-centered patterns. Would not own one - well, if it were a gift...

Regading the 9mm - I remember reading of an experience a wife had in Africa during the Mau-Mau rebelion. Her men were away tending to cattle, and a Mau-Mau tried to break into her house. She ups with her Sten, and said Mau-Mau remembers an appointment elsewhere. As he was retreating in full career, she put half a magazine in his back - and he continued to his appointment. Seems like the rebels would wear a dozen or more wool overcoats as armor. Worked for the 9 the Sten sent his way. Don't think it would have worked if she had a grease gun, or Thompson...

chemist308
12-06-2009, 02:44 AM
A .22 LR that hits its target is more effective than a .44 magnum that misses.
You know that is funny, because I tell people looking to get their first gun that all of the time. People have asked me what their first guns should be, and I always defer them to a 22 rifle and pistol--they are much less expensive to buy and to feed. Once the art of shooting is learned and the bug has bitten them, they will buy other stuff as they can afford and want. For pistols I also tell them that the one they actually feel comfortable concealing and will actually carry will be one that saves thier life. Hence why my current carry gun is a tiny 32 ACP revolver.

With that said, I just finished loading my first 9mm cast boolits--actually first time I ever reloaded 9 mm. It was tricky loading a case that small and being careful not to seat a boolit too deeply and increase the pressure even more... The 38 case seems more forgiving...

I am torn though. The 9mm is powerfull enough and holds many rounds. As someone else mentioned, the trouble is all the time you spend hunting your casings... The 38 seems more forgiving to reload too.

mike in co
12-06-2009, 02:47 AM
this has been around the block more than once.
with modern powders and modern bullets there is little difference in a single round....

as has been pointed out the real difference is in round count. the average 9 has 2 to 3 times the rounds as a 6 shooter.

only bullets that hit thier target count..

a shooting in denver. multiple cops , one bad guy with a gun...42 shots incomming...TWO HITS.


( A 158 XTP IN A 9MM WILL DO 1037 FROM A 4.6" BBL, A 158XTP FROM A 38 WILL DO 900 FPS FROM A 4" BBL, AND 1036 FROM A 6"...I CALL THAT A TIE).........

and yes i shoot 357 jacketed bullets from my nines!


mike in co

helg
12-06-2009, 03:20 AM
The thread is already stolen. May I ask another related question.

Did anybody slug bore of the 9mm 92?

I have three barrels, and they all slug to .357" or more. Chamber at neck is over .382" in all three. Needless to say that I had to make an oversized ammo to get reasonable accuracy from these barrels with cast bullets. Is it my karma, or the barrel is designed to be that loose?

jameslovesjammie
12-06-2009, 03:23 AM
I agree with 357MAX on everything he said.

If talking the same boolit design and same weight, they are nearly identical. It all boils down to which platform you prefer. However, the 9mm typically needs a smaller meplat to function. I would say that even a premium 9mm HP wouldn't do as much damage as a pure lead wadcutter. Especially a HBWC backwards.

The beauty of the 9mm is higher capacity.

The beauty of the .38 versatility. You can shoot from 100 to 180 grain boolits out of it and it will not affect the function of the gun. No FTF's, no FTE's, no stovepipes, no limp wristing. Just a point and click interface.

chemist308
12-06-2009, 03:31 AM
Mine slugs at 0.355. Hence I am not sizing my 0.356 boolits--and the lee mould really does cast at that...

lwknight
12-06-2009, 03:33 AM
Here is the skinny of it. A standard 148 grain 38 spl lead HP at 950 fps will out perform a 9mm standard load with 115 grain fmj at 1050 fps hands down,
Both 38spl and 9mm Plus P are not all that Plus.
Ammo manufacturers cannot sell high performance ammo that can be put in any old gun. There may exist 38 spl +P+ but I have not seen it.
You can get 9mm +P+ that with todays high tech bullet design and velocities at better than 1300 fps will definately be more effective than any 38spl.

One downside for the unlearned general public regarding the 9mm is that because of liability issues, 9mm +P+ ammo is marked as "Law Enforcemeny Only" and most sporting goods stores will not sell it to public. Don't be mislead. LEO only is nothing more than a manufacturers CYA. It has no legal merit whatsoever.

Currently the high end 9mm SD ammo is 147 grain HST by Federal,Speer gold Dot, aand Winchester (believe it or not) WWB 147 grain JHP. There are more like the Corbon line as well.

I'll stay with te 124,125 grain bullets jst for agruments sake. If you look up ballistics on the 357 magnum from 1970s and compare to todays off the shelf run of the mill ammo, you will see that there is a huge difference in performance. Todays common 357 magnum 125 grain ammo is about 1375 fps.

9mm +P+ 124 grain bullets can easily reach velocities of 1300+ depending on barrel length.

One advantage of 38 spl is that you can buy "Short Barrel " Ammo and all it is, is a faster powder that reaches its maximum velocity in a short barrel and will not perform any better in a longer barrel. And it will never outperforn a standard round in a longer barrel. So many people like the 38 snubbies that it gets a fair rating.

If you have a 4" barrel in 9nn you can get 124 grain JHPs to 1375 fps.

So for off the shelf standard ammo, 38 spl wins. And for specialty ammo 9mm wins.

I do know all the technical and statistical stuff but, saw no point for this current discussion.

aaalaska
12-06-2009, 04:10 AM
Powerful enough for what? Unless I'm going to spend the day in Anchorage I don't carry anything lighter than the 45 colt 44 mag, class. Guess our fuzzys make a difference.
Alex

Bret4207
12-06-2009, 08:43 AM
We have have some real blood letting over the 38-9mm debate here in the past. Both rounds can be loaded to equal the others hot loads with similar weight boolits and bullets. There isn't much difference between the two given proper projectiles for the use and proper loading. Capacity is the "advantage" to the auto 9 and the downfall too. Both can be accurate and powerful. The 38 is currently under loaded and many 9mm loads and 38 loads don't reach advertised velocity.

In short- the biggest difference is in chasing brass. The choice comes down to use and personal preference. One good hit from either can ruin your day.

bruce drake
12-06-2009, 09:25 AM
I've qualified with both the 1911 and the Beretta 92 for the Army. Both work their magic when the operator does his part. Each pistol takes a learning curve. Learn either pistol and its' particular foibles (barrel dimensions, loading criteria, etc..)and they'll hit where you aim it.

Proper training with your sidearm is the key to the effectiveness. Bret can probably chime in on this as well.

Bruce

beagle
12-06-2009, 11:24 AM
IMO, there's very little difference between the performance of the .38 Special and the 9mm with the same weight bullet. The advantage going to the .38 Special because it's more bullet design friendly. The fact that most 9mm hold 10 or more rounds and tries to make up for bad marksmanship is not really a plus.

I have several Browning High Powers and the accuracy and reliability is there and they're very handy to stick in a levi pocket when messing around the farm here but given my druthers, I'd use one of my .38 Specials with a SWC HP in a bad situation every time.

I remember the gunwriters hype years ago when they talked everyone into buying a 9mm. "The .45 Auto is dead", "the .38 Special is Obsolete".

Well, I guess events have proven them wrong again.

Nothing wrong with the 9mm. Easy to load for, accurate and plenty of loadable brass and firepower. But give me the .38 Special every time over it defense wise./beagle

Oldtimer
12-06-2009, 11:41 AM
I have 9mm, 38, 357, 40, and 45 in all shapes and descriptions. For my use, give me my Glock 30. 10 rounds of 185 gr XTP 45 ACP. Hard to beat. Bob

HammerMTB
12-06-2009, 11:53 AM
Not too much use in comparing 9MM and .38
Neither one is powerful enough, as demonstrated in many a gunfight. There's lots of data to look at on the 'net as well as off it.
Folks apparently forget why the .45 caliber was chosen in the first place.
My personal choice is a 10MM. In my Glock 20, 16 rounds better be enough. ~700 lbs ft of energy in a 40 caliber slug is up to the task of stopping the most dangerous critter in my neighborhood.

blaster
12-06-2009, 11:57 AM
I have 9mm, 38, 357, 40, and 45 in all shapes and descriptions. For my use, give me my Glock 30. 10 rounds of 185 gr XTP 45 ACP. Hard to beat. Bob

The 185 gr XTP doesn't have nearly as much "stopping power" as a 38 special. It has to be a 230 gr or your wasting your time.

Edubya
12-06-2009, 12:01 PM
I have both .38 and 9mm. One of them are on my person at all times (except when I have to fly in commercial airlines, which ain't often!). In the range that we, as civilians, would have to use a gun in SD, either one would be very effective!
Practice getting off of the "X" often and be cool at all times.
EW

StarMetal
12-06-2009, 12:42 PM
I guess with these questions about the 9mm not being powerful enough and comparing it to the 38 Special sure answers the age long debate between the 45 acp and the 9mm huh?

Joe

fredj338
12-06-2009, 12:59 PM
I've got to be missing something here. I'm looking at load data for 9mm, 38 special and 357 magnum. Everyone I'm hearing from is telling me that the 38 has better "stopping power" than the 9mm. The 9 mm has a shorter case, and will cost me an extra full grain (nearly 30% more) of Bullseye powder.

Now consider this. The shorter case alone will create higher pressure with same powder weights. But we're also adding more powder to this equation. I swear I'm not looking for a caliber war here, but why is the 9mm taking so much flack that weaker cartridges are being placed ahead of it?
You are missing a few things. Size of the case does not equal "power", size of the bullet does not equal "power". It's mas & vel. + bullet construction.
The 38sp case was designed for black powder, hence it's large size & reduced pressure levels. It runs at about 2/3 the pressure of the small 9mm. Small case usually equals higher pressure, less case volumn.
The 9mm is considered min def caliber because of the smaller bullets, 100-147gr. Unless you handload it to beyond it's working pressures, it maxes out w/ a 147grJHP @ about 1050fps in factory loads. Contrary to what some may think, that is pretty easy to achieve in heavy 38sp loads too. The biggest advantage in the 38sp is it will drive a 158grLSWCHP or sim bullet to an honest 900fps. Increases penetration & delivers a bit more "power" than the avg. 9mm load. Both should be considered minmal rounds IMO, but it's JMO.

fredj338
12-06-2009, 01:01 PM
The 185 gr XTP doesn't have nearly as much "stopping power" as a 38 special. It has to be a 230 gr or your wasting your time.
You have top be joking right? You do realize that rounds like the Rem.185grGSB have about as much horsepower as you can get froma 45acp & a pretty good street record in LEO where it's used.[smilie=l:

blaster
12-06-2009, 01:33 PM
In fact, unless you have a 308 you are underguned. Everything elses is a squrrel rifle/pistol. But it has to be a single shot 308 because you only need one round or else you are just compensating for poor marksmanship.

Finster101
12-06-2009, 02:03 PM
I won't argue ballistics, and you can criticize marksmanship all you want. Having extra ammo capacity for a situation that most hope they will never be in can be a little comforting. I'm not a bad hand at standing at the line and punching paper. The indoor range I go to has a "league" every now and then where they close the range and set up a course. you don't see the course until it is your turn. When the lighting is dim or flashing, when there is a siren or very loud music, when the silhouettes are wearing shirts and hats things change. Most people are going to be very amped up if they ever use their weapon in a defense situation. Having a few extra rounds to help is not a bad thing. Also, I have known quite a few LEOs and very few of them spend enough time with their service weapon. JMO

troy7769
12-06-2009, 02:06 PM
IMHO if i am being atacked by any of the above "lead bugs", I am not going to be concerned with, what cal.,speed, or power, it has. It is going to make for a bad day no matter what. As for being on the other end of the firearm, when I need one, I can make do with any of the above.

Dframe
12-06-2009, 02:44 PM
The 9mm with similar weight bullets is about the same as a 38 special. Where the 38 gains advantage is in it's ability to utilise heavier bullets, and bullets with better shapes,(ie big wide meplats)

chris in va
12-06-2009, 03:31 PM
This is what led me to sell my SP101. I had trouble hitting anything with 357's. People told me to use 38+p for defensive rounds, but it occurred to me...might as well use 9mm+p in a semiauto that holds more ammo.

:Fire:

Marlin Hunter
12-06-2009, 03:45 PM
( A 158 XTP IN A 9MM WILL DO 1037 FROM A 4.6" BBL, A 158XTP FROM A 38 WILL DO 900 FPS FROM A 4" BBL, AND 1036 FROM A 6"...I CALL THAT A TIE).........

and yes i shoot 357 jacketed bullets from my nines!


mike in co


I have also shot .357 Semi-Jacketed Hollow Points (125gr) out of my 9mm after resizing them to .356. It worked

What powder and weight do you use for the 158 grain boolit?

Oldtimer
12-06-2009, 03:47 PM
fredj338,
I was'nt gonna say anything. Glad you did though. Bob

blaster
12-06-2009, 04:32 PM
Obviously I was just joking. I was just trying to illistrate the common concept that whatever I have chosen and works best for me, is the best and all other choices are inferior. I'm sure that the guy that told chemist308 that the 38 special is better/more powerful than a 9mm has and perfers the 38. In reality anything .380 on up is probably powerful enough if you are comfortable with it and can shoot it reasonabley well. For that matter a 25acp beats a sharp word any day.

More select words of wisdom:
revolvers don't jam as much-autos are flatter and more concealable
lasers are a crutch for poor marksmanship-lasers are helpful in nonstandard shooting positions
night sites impove accuracy in low light-night sights can't help you see your target
SA autos have consistent trigger pull- DA/SA autos hae second strike capability
45 has a greater frontal area-9mm has greater magizine capacity-40s&w has larger magizine capacity than a 45 and greater frontal area than a 9
SWC's have a larger meplat-HP's expand better
Cartridge X isn't powerful enough for Y- I've done Y with cartridge X.
and on and on and on

I am glad that I got you 45 guys bristles up though. I always love doing that.

lylejb
12-06-2009, 05:15 PM
Balistically, 38 vs 9mm is a tie. Both have performance / hot loads available, equal modern bullets, ect. ect.

I think the better gun is the one YOU can confidently shoot better, a personal choice.

Some will say the 9mm auto's have an advantage because of large magazines. I think one well placed round may end a situation, but 15 misses likely won't.

Really, it all comes down to you. Whichever you choose to put in the time and energy to become proficiant with is the best one.

exile
12-06-2009, 05:33 PM
I had a chance to fire a friends 92F over the holidays. I was considering buying one someday, but the reports here do not give me a great deal of confidence. I guess for my part I would carry my Glock 26 for self-defense and use my 686 for fun with .38 loads. Again just personal preference.

exile

35remington
12-06-2009, 06:15 PM
"The 38sp case was designed for black powder, hence it's large size & reduced pressure levels. It runs at about 2/3 the pressure of the small 9mm."

It's more like half the pressure of the nine as many sources load it. Most Plus P 38 special ammo is not very Plus P.

If anyone's seen the data and pressures the 38 special used to be loaded to, there wouldn't be a debate. Look at the Speer #8 sometime. The loads in the manual for the two inch revolvers used to be much stouter than anything seen today. The loads for a two inch small frame revolver were only the "medium" loadings selected from the manual for the K frame , and generated up to 369 foot pounds from a two inch.

Top energies for a 146 grain bullet from a K-38 went to 545 ft/lbs. The 9mm would have to run and hide from the 38 back in the day.

Velocities of 1415 fps for a 110 grain, 1322 fps from a 125, 1264 fps from a 140, 1296 fps from a 146, and 1187 fps from a 158 were obtained.

"If you want to go all the way try 6.9gr of v3n38 behind a 147gr XTP for aboout 1200fps (referring to the 9mm). If you can find a 38 special load that can do that I'd like to see it....."


You just saw it. And then some.

In those days, the 9mm was in the 38's shadow as the boys from Speer used to load it.

Now, Plus P loads of this sort were the ones that truly loosened up small frame snubbies, especially aluminum ones, in short order. These days 38 special +P ammo is quite a bit milder than those handloads, and I sincerely doubt factory Plus P is really very hard on a small frame gun, even in aluminum, and even if not originally rated for Plus P.

lwknight
12-06-2009, 06:43 PM
Anyone can sup up a 38. They call it 357 magnum literally translated as "357 Enthusiastic"
Carry a 38 if you want a revolver and a 9mm if you want an autoloader.
Age old debate beat to death.

StarMetal
12-06-2009, 06:49 PM
Anyone can sup up a 38. They call it 357 magnum literally translated as "357 Enthusiastic"
Carry a 38 if you want a revolver and a 9mm if you want an autoloader.
Age old debate beat to death.

Agreeing with you. Supping up the 9mm is called a 38 Super.

Joe

odis
12-06-2009, 07:10 PM
I think if I was restricted to a pistol in 36 caliber I would go with the nine because of the capacity. My father gave me the best endorsement for the 45 years ago when he told me that in France during the war he discovered that he could fill 13 GI canteens with one 45 caliber hole in a wine barrel but with a 9mm he could only fill 8 before the hole swelled shut. He never said much more about the war except that he hated all europeans till the day he died in 1994, I miss him.

chemist308
12-06-2009, 08:45 PM
The 38sp case was designed for black powder, hence it's large size & reduced pressure levels. It runs at about 2/3 the pressure of the small 9mm...

That there is my point. Now, please, keep our discussions to standard loads for both cartridges. 38 +P and 38+P+ can't be shot out of all 38 revolvers without detrimental effects. And sure you can hot load a 9mm, but do it in the wrong gun and you could be in for a surprise. My point is that people are knocking the 9mm and saying that an old BP cartridge that was modernized is better. It's about as bad as the 308 vs 30-06 debate. In both cases folks are going for the older cartridge...

Which would I pick--either one actually. Heck I'm still carying a 32 ACP 5 shot revolver... I will say the 38 is much easier and more forgiving to reload, and generally it is nice not to have to hunt for my brass at the range... But semi autos are fun... I don't subscribe to the caliber wars so much as I did when I was newb, but when I see a viable cartridge getting slapped around like the 9 gets, it just doesn't make sense.

Tazman1602
12-06-2009, 08:59 PM
Age old debate that I see has been already beaten to death here. Either is a good caliber if it hits what it is aimed at and loaded properly. I have .38, .357, 9mm and like to shoot them all with handloads.

The biggest problem with Military/LEO is some moron bean counter won't supply the people with enough ammo to get enough experience to actually be effective because he wants his figures to look good. Military/LEO should be required to shoot many rounds a month at the range at our expense IMHO.

Personally I'll take my .45 over all of them in a self defense situation/CQB situation, but I carry .380 every day because of easy concealability.....OK, now you can barbecue me...........

.45 rules............

IllinoisCoyoteHunter
12-06-2009, 09:00 PM
Haven't chronod them yet. I should be able to push these to .38 SPL velocities, and maybe even +P velocitites. These shoot GREAT out of my Sig P228.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh119/kage1339/9mmLee358-158RF022.jpg

9.3X62AL
12-06-2009, 09:13 PM
This kind of subject usually doesn't appear until February, after cabin fever really sets in.

I use both calibers. I like both calibers. Both calibers are GROSSLY underloaded by the ammo makers, and the gunmakers with their Incredible Shrinking Carry Guns aren't doing us any favors either.

Now, as to which caliber I'd prefer to get shot with........is there a "Choice C--None Of The Above"?

blaster
12-06-2009, 09:58 PM
You can't forget the russian armor piercing 9mm overpressure variants that run into 2000fps from a 4" barrel.

mike in co
12-06-2009, 09:59 PM
Not too much use in comparing 9MM and .38
Neither one is powerful enough, as demonstrated in many a gunfight. There's lots of data to look at on the 'net as well as off it.
Folks apparently forget why the .45 caliber was chosen in the first place.
My personal choice is a 10MM. In my Glock 20, 16 rounds better be enough. ~700 lbs ft of energy in a 40 caliber slug is up to the task of stopping the most dangerous critter in my neighborhood.


yes....but it is not a nine nor a 38.......

and the fbi ditched the 10...because most of thier people could not hit anything with the second shot.....replaced by the 40 smith and wesson.

it was not a disscussion about how good eaither was but a comparison of the two....


maybe you could go start a disscussion on the merits of the 10 over the 45apc ?

ouch

mike in co

mike in co
12-06-2009, 10:02 PM
I have also shot .357 Semi-Jacketed Hollow Points (125gr) out of my 9mm after resizing them to .356. It worked

What powder and weight do you use for the 158 grain boolit?


accurate 7 is what i used for both comparisons

mike in co
12-06-2009, 10:05 PM
The fact that most 9mm hold 10 or more rounds and tries to make up for bad marksmanship is not really a plus.

I have several Browning High Powers and the accuracy and reliability is there and they're very handy to stick in a levi pocket when messing around the farm /beagle


b,
i'm missing something here... you say bad marksmanship in a nine, but your highpower shoots well..


we be talking guns and ammo...and hopefully not the shooter, cause we know no one is as good as you and me, and now i'm not sure about you...lol


mike in co

mike in co
12-06-2009, 10:08 PM
Age old debate that I see has been already beaten to death here. Either is a good caliber if it hits what it is aimed at and loaded properly. I have .38, .357, 9mm and like to shoot them all with handloads.

The biggest problem with Military/LEO is some moron bean counter won't supply the people with enough ammo to get enough experience to actually be effective because he wants his figures to look good. Military/LEO should be required to shoot many rounds a month at the range at our expense IMHO.

Personally I'll take my .45 over all of them in a self defense situation/CQB situation, but I carry .380 every day because of easy concealability.....OK, now you can barbecue me...........

.45 rules............

not exactly....thier lawyers/some treaty we have never signed, required then to shoot "less harmful" ammo...like ball when modern effective ammo is available.

mike in co

Tazman1602
12-06-2009, 10:34 PM
not exactly....thier lawyers/some treaty we have never signed, required then to shoot "less harmful" ammo...like ball when modern effective ammo is available.

mike in co

Hey Mike, I don't get what you're saying?? Sorry. I know the military/ball ammo thing you're talking about, what I'm talking about is some pencilneck Colonel CPA not giving our troops enough range time (along with LEO's......even though they're separate agencies..) and ammo because it's expensive to shoot. My point is (especially the Military) should be able to train our guys properly. That involves a LOT of range time if done properly and a LOT of ammo = a LOT of expense. Accountants don't like that.

I know for a fact that when Eugene Stoner designed the M-16 for extruded powder ammo and the powers that were at the time decided they would use up all supplies of surplus ball powder on hand first (due to costs....) more than a few of our guys died due to jams with the rifle and that powder. Again an example of a bean counter making the decisions for the troops.

.........or did I totally miss your point???

Art

mroliver77
12-06-2009, 10:51 PM
art, Not trying to slam you but you should do some more research on M16 history. there were troubles reaching guidelines set by the military with the stick powder. True the ball powders cruded the action and was a horrid outcome. and stoner designed the AR10 and others but the 16 was a scaled down version by two others engineers whos names I cannot remember. (Stoners grandchild?) At least the histories I have read on it tell it this way.
I agree that those who live by/with the gun should be well trained with the gun. I know no other way than to shoot buckets of bullets.
A close friend was a dispatcher at our county sherrifs office. He is proficient with the handgun and know how to service one. An officer asked him to look at his piece as it would fire only one round and stovepipe. This was his DUTY weapon!!! Unacceptable.!!
Jay

alamogunr
12-06-2009, 10:59 PM
Haven't chronod them yet. I should be able to push these to .38 SPL velocities, and maybe even +P velocitites. These shoot GREAT out of my Sig P228.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh119/kage1339/9mmLee358-158RF022.jpg

I really like the looks of those rounds. I'm going to have to try some. Keep us updated on your results at increased velocities. I assume (no comments, Please!) that loads using Bullseye could be worked up. I wouldn't want to use those boolets as a regular diet in my Sigs or the Rugers I got for my sons but an occasional heavy boolet for plinking would illustrate what the round can do. Not trying to start another thread since the subject has been pretty well pounded(http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=68944) but it might fit in as a carry round too.

John
W.TN

Tazman1602
12-06-2009, 11:02 PM
art, Not trying to slam you but you should do some more research on M16 history. there were troubles reaching guidelines set by the military with the stick powder. True the ball powders cruded the action and was a horrid outcome. and stoner designed the AR10 and others but the 16 was a scaled down version by two others engineers whos names I cannot remember. (Stoners grandchild?) At least the histories I have read on it tell it this way.
I agree that those who live by/with the gun should be well trained with the gun. I know no other way than to shoot buckets of bullets.
A close friend was a dispatcher at our county sherrifs office. He is proficient with the handgun and know how to service one. An officer asked him to look at his piece as it would fire only one round and stovepipe. This was his DUTY weapon!!! Unacceptable.!!
Jay

Man Jay now you're gonna make me dig out that old book I got that info from. You *could* be right, been a long time since I read that history. I think you're right on Stoners grandchild having some part -- and we all know writers are biased to some extent.

Yeah whatever the duty weapons of any officer should be FLAWLESS and they should be able to shoot until they are extremely good at it.

I go to "pin shoots" sometimes in the summer here and we have some LEO's who always come, the locals just tear them up and give them a hard time but we all have fun --- but it's an outside range..........

The local Native American tribe here has their own police force.......and they equip them with H&K .45's......

OK sorry for hijacking the thread. .38 is better than 9mm WAIT! Did I get that bass ackwards?

Art

Tazman1602
12-06-2009, 11:04 PM
Haven't chronod them yet. I should be able to push these to .38 SPL velocities, and maybe even +P velocitites. These shoot GREAT out of my Sig P228.



Oh that's NICE........I just cast a bunch of those and can't wait to try them.............

Art

fredj338
12-06-2009, 11:17 PM
:takinWiz:
In fact, unless you have a 308 you are underguned. Everything elses is a squrrel rifle/pistol. But it has to be a single shot 308 because you only need one round or else you are just compensating for poor marksmanship.:groner:

Ricochet
12-07-2009, 12:50 AM
That Ball powder vs. IMR powder problem wasn't foreseeable. Took a while to figure out that the lime added in processing the Ball powder (to neutralize acids) was leaving residue that clogged up uncleaned M-16s. Ball powders hadn't caused any operating problems in other military weapons or calibers. The M-16 wasn't specifically designed to use the IMR powder and not Ball powder, but the testing was all done with IMR powders. WC844 wasn't a surplus powder to be used up at the bean counters' urging, it was new powder made for the purpose. (New Ball powders can be made from surplus powders, which was what the first Ball powders were made from in the 1930s.) Retrospectively it would've been nice if they'd done more testing, but IMR and Ball powders had long been considered functionally equivalent and nobody foresaw the finicky nature of the M-16.

Southern Son
12-07-2009, 02:27 AM
You can't forget the russian armor piercing 9mm overpressure variants that run into 2000fps from a 4" barrel.

Blaster, what brand of spoon do you use and when stiring, do you use one or two hands?:bigsmyl2:

lwknight
12-07-2009, 03:11 AM
Yea, I caught that myself Southern, but i was not going to acknoledge it.

Recluse
12-07-2009, 05:39 AM
The 185 gr XTP doesn't have nearly as much "stopping power" as a 38 special. It has to be a 230 gr or your wasting your time.

I wish someone smart, knowledgeable and with firsthand experience had told a bunch of us dumb deputy U.S. marshals that back in my day. . .

Fortunately, our firsthand experience proved to the contrary. :wink:

:coffee:

mike in co
12-07-2009, 11:55 AM
Hey Mike, I don't get what you're saying?? Sorry. I know the military/ball ammo thing you're talking about, what I'm talking about is some pencilneck Colonel CPA not giving our troops enough range time (along with LEO's......even though they're separate agencies..) and ammo because it's expensive to shoot. My point is (especially the Military) should be able to train our guys properly. That involves a LOT of range time if done properly and a LOT of ammo = a LOT of expense. Accountants don't like that.

I know for a fact that when Eugene Stoner designed the M-16 for extruded powder ammo and the powers that were at the time decided they would use up all supplies of surplus ball powder on hand first (due to costs....) more than a few of our guys died due to jams with the rifle and that powder. Again an example of a bean counter making the decisions for the troops.

.........or did I totally miss your point???

Art

i do not know how much shooting time you got, but i know some who have shot tons of ammo before deployment. the availability of 223 brass at auction has not gone down much...

so my point is that i do not dissagree that practice is necessary, but the use of ecffective bullets is a bigger issue. lots of stories of multiple hits with ball ammo and the bad guy keeps shooting. move to an effective/affective bullet and me thinks the story changes.
no real argument

mike in co

mike in co
12-07-2009, 12:19 PM
I've got to be missing something here. I'm looking at load data for 9mm, 38 special and 357 magnum. Everyone I'm hearing from is telling me that the 38 has better "stopping power" than the 9mm. The 9 mm has a shorter case, and will cost me an extra full grain (nearly 30% more) of Bullseye powder.

Now consider this. The shorter case alone will create higher pressure with same powder weights. But we're also adding more powder to this equation. I swear I'm not looking for a caliber war here, but why is the 9mm taking so much flack that weaker cartridges are being placed ahead of it?


ok lets look at some history. and not here in the us of a. the iron curtain countries for years have shot 9 mak( 9mm makarov...) used mainly in blow back pistols with an operating pressure of 23kpsi. what was this 25% of the populace where the side arm was 9mak. now move to the other side of the same "curtain" and the europeans shot 9 corto..9mm browning or 380 auto( 19.5 kpsi op pressure). this was a big step up from thier prior round that was....32 auto. now move to lots of other countries..and its a big step up to...9mm luger. used around the world as an military and police round.. the bottom line is that most countries accepted 9mm luger/para bellum as an acceptable round for the mil/police.
yes some countries used revolters in 38 and a couple in 45.

its not till we hit the states that we see the race to bigger is better. going from 25-20's and less to the 45acp/10mm.
as i pointed out there real problem is bullet design. in the last 20 yrs we have made light yrs of progress in affective bullet design. let the police use them and the issue of multiple hits with no effect goes away in most cases, in my opinion. use any thing from 9/38 and up and its a non-issue.

me thinks any gun from 9mak up, with a proper bullet and a good hit, will work. this encludes 9mm and 38's, heck maybe some of the 32 revolters to.

mike in co

StarMetal
12-07-2009, 12:55 PM
ok lets look at some history. and not here in the us of a. the iron curtain countries for years have shot 9 mak( 9mm makarov...) used mainly in blow back pistols with an operating pressure of 23kpsi. what was this 25% of the populace where the side arm was 9mak. now move to the other side of the same "curtain" and the europeans shot 9 corto..9mm browning or 380 auto( 19.5 kpsi op pressure). this was a big step up from thier prior round that was....32 auto. now move to lots of other countries..and its a big step up to...9mm luger. used around the world as an military and police round.. the bottom line is that most countries accepted 9mm luger/para bellum as an acceptable round for the mil/police.
yes some countries used revolters in 38 and a couple in 45.

its not till we hit the states that we see the race to bigger is better. going from 25-20's and less to the 45acp/10mm.
as i pointed out there real problem is bullet design. in the last 20 yrs we have made light yrs of progress in affective bullet design. let the police use them and the issue of multiple hits with no effect goes away in most cases, in my opinion. use any thing from 9/38 and up and its a non-issue.

me thinks any gun from 9mak up, with a proper bullet and a good hit, will work. this encludes 9mm and 38's, heck maybe some of the 32 revolters to.

mike in co

Mike what you say is true but when our boys enter some house and there are insurgents in there, they are scared out of their skivies to start with and a calm, well places shot with a proper constructed bullet in a smaller caliber just isn't going to happen. They often pray and spray and that's where some body hit with the larger more potent caliber comes into play. A hit with it in a non vital area is better then a smaller caliber in a non vital area.

Joe

blaster
12-07-2009, 02:07 PM
Here we go. I predicted this turn in this thread back on post 26 when I threw out there that "unless you have a 308 you are undergunned." These "more powerful" threads always seem to go back to 7.62 vs. 5.56.

Again, like the 9mm vs. 38 vs. 40 vs. 45 vs. 10mm, both have their merits and limitations. From my firsthand experience with a 15ft spray and pray against a dismount the 5.56 is better but from my firsthand experience with a vehicle running a road block 7.62 is better than 5.56 and the 25mm M242 Bushmaster cannon is better still.

Tazman1602
12-07-2009, 03:02 PM
i do not know how much shooting time you got, ........

so my point is that i do not dissagree that practice is necessary, but the use of ecffective bullets is a bigger issue. lots of stories of multiple hits with ball ammo and the bad guy keeps shooting. move to an effective/affective bullet and me thinks the story changes.
no real argument

mike in co

NONE. If I had my way the boys would all be shooting Barnes X bullets out of the M-4's and either Barnes or Hornady out of the 9's.........matter of fact I'd give them back their .45's.......We are in total agreement on this issue.

I shoot almost daily these days 'cause I've got time and I'm older so eyes and reaction times aren't as good as they used to be so I have to make up for it in situational awareness.................

I'd still like to see the 9's and our men in uniform have all the range time they can stand if they have to shoot 9's. I *think*, in a CQB situation, if I had to be there, that I'd rather have thousands of hours of range time..........under stress......and the expanded capacity of the 9mm..............loaded with Barnes bullets. Or Winchester Black Talons, or Remington Golden Sabers, or......

Nope, we are in total and complete agreement on your point Mike.

Art

mike in co
12-07-2009, 03:19 PM
JOE, THERE ARE SERIOUS DIFFERENT SITUTATIONS.

my personal defense pistol.

a cop

a soldier

each have different requirements...based on deployment.


i get modern bullets/boolits, practice, and don't think i have an issue..but ya never know.

most police are not in battle zones,BUT some large cities are......they need to loaded for the bad guys but thier lawyers always say no...just bs. notice la spec force POLICE have 45's.

i think most special mil teams are back to using 45's tho there is some subsonic 9mm heavy loads used.

and the poor foot soldier has ball 9mm.....its a good thing it has a big mag....you can pound a guy to the ground...

mike in co

machinisttx
12-07-2009, 07:25 PM
I qualified expert several times with the M9, I have a stock 92FS which is the same gun and it is one of the most ACCURATE pistols I have ever used. I can run 100 rounds through it at 25yd offhand and hold 3" minus a couple of fliers.

As far as powerful enough I think it is plenty powerful. If you want to go all the way try 6.9gr of v3n38 behind a 147gr XTP for aboout 1200fps. If you can find a 38 special load that can do that I'd like to see it, that is near 357magnum performance. I guess it still can't have the "stopping power" the 38 with its 11gr heavier bullet at 1000fps.

In whoever told you that's defense the 38 does look more powerful.

IIRC, it's isn't too hard to drive a 158 at that velocity from a .38 with 12 grains of 2400. Nothing more than the 70 odd year old 38-44 HV load, which predates the .357 magnum. ;)

machinisttx
12-07-2009, 07:38 PM
Obviously I was just joking. I was just trying to illistrate the common concept that whatever I have chosen and works best for me, is the best and all other choices are inferior. I'm sure that the guy that told chemist308 that the 38 special is better/more powerful than a 9mm has and perfers the 38. In reality anything .380 on up is probably powerful enough if you are comfortable with it and can shoot it reasonabley well. For that matter a 25acp beats a sharp word any day.

More select words of wisdom:
revolvers don't jam-autos are flatter and more concealable
lasers are a crutch for poor marksmanship-lasers are helpful in nonstandard shooting positions
night sites impove accuracy in low light-night sights can't help you see your target
SA autos have consistent trigger pull- DA/SA autos hae second strike capability
45 has a greater frontal area-9mm has greater magizine capacity-40s&w has larger magizine capacity than a 45 and greater frontal area than a 9
SWC's have a larger meplat-HP's expand better
Cartridge X isn't powerful enough for Y- I've done Y with cartridge X.
and on and on and on

I am glad that I got you 45 guys bristles up though. I always love doing that.

The part in red is a lie, and I can prove it in several ways. High primers, squib loads, junk under the extractor star, extractor star coming loose from the rod it's press fit onto(S&W, happened to me but apparently very rare), ejector rod coming unscrewed, etc..

I carry and shoot revolvers almost exclusively. Revolvers rarely fail, but when they do....it's likely to be down until it can be repaired at a later time. Bottom feeders have, I'm sure, a higher incidence of failures, but the majority of them are very quickly rectified and the gun put back into action.

SierraWhiskeyMC
12-07-2009, 08:13 PM
I tried to qualify with a Beretta 92F (M9) while in the Army; if it wasn't for gravity, I couldn't hit the ground. It was the most INACCURATE pistol I've ever tried to use. If I recall, only 5 guys even hit the target.

I think it's the way they're teaching basic pistol marksmanship nowadays that's the problem, not the pistol itself.

Last week, I helped a Marine LT who's attending TBS (The Basic School); he was having problems with the M9. He was afraid that he was going to barely qualify as a Marksman. It would have sucked to have his graduation photo taken wearing a toilet seat. :p

So this is exactly what I wrote to him:

There are many more ways to screw up when shooting a pistol than when shooting a rifle.

BRASSS, stance, etc - all apply.

But here are the three things that will completely screw you up if you don't get them right:

1) Sight alignment. If you don't have your sights aligned perfectly, you will be anywhere but where you want to be. This is much more critical than with a rifle, as with a rifle you have a far greater sight radius, and only a tiny peep hole to look through. Sight picture doesn't mean a damn thing unless you have proper and consistent sight alignment. The sights on an M9 are HUGE compared to those on an M1911/M1911A1, which aids greatly in target acquisition - but sight alignment is just as critical.

2) Your hold. Be consistent. Your wrist should be centered on the slide, your elbow locked. Maintain a firm grip; not a death grip, and don't limp-wrist it, either. Index finger pad centered on the trigger, pull straight back.

3) Squeeeeezeee that trigger with the pad of your index finger. It should be a surprise when it goes off. If it isn't a surprise, you will be anticipating the shot going off, and will screw it up, guaranteed.

If you have to pick just two of these, go with 1) and 3).

I think that many have the misconception that since the sights on the M9/92FS are so HUGE (they are, compared to a GI-spec M1911/M1911A1), you don't have to worry about sight alignment. As I wrote to the young LT, the large sights help quite a bit in rapid target acquisition, but sight alignment is every bit as important as it ever was.

He went from nearly going UNQ (unqualified) to high Sharpshooter with the M9 - 333/400 (Expert is 345/400) by applying just those three basic marksmanship skills over his pre-qualification day and qualification day. The only reason he didn't qualify with a low Expert score is that he got anxious and jerked the trigger a few times during rapid fire.

The bottom line here is that it doesn't really matter WHAT the caliber is; it is where the shot is placed that counts.

blaster
12-07-2009, 08:18 PM
Thanks for the clarification machinisttx.

Who's this Guy ?
12-07-2009, 08:39 PM
Why not throw my 2cts in. I like the 9mm over the .38. Personal preference. Why? Because I reload and I'm cheap and pickup range brass. It seems revolver brass isn't lying around .38 etc. I might have to move on and buy a .40. That brass seems to have taking over the ground more lately. I know my post doesn't address the stopping power issue but this thread has already been nuetered.

mike in co
12-07-2009, 09:06 PM
"Originally Posted by blaster
I qualified expert several times with the M9, I have a stock 92FS which is the same gun and it is one of the most ACCURATE pistols I have ever used. I can run 100 rounds through it at 25yd offhand and hold 3" minus a couple of fliers.

As far as powerful enough I think it is plenty powerful. If you want to go all the way try 6.9gr of v3n38 behind a 147gr XTP for aboout 1200fps. If you can find a 38 special load that can do that I'd like to see it, that is near 357magnum performance. I guess it still can't have the "stopping power" the 38 with its 11gr heavier bullet at 1000fps.

In whoever told you that's defense the 38 does look more powerful"

maybe you can furnish us some chrono printed data to support this claim

as listed 6.9 and 147 xtp. is only 1125fps... variations happen.
BUT YOUR CLAIM IS ALSO OVER PRESUURE FOR A 9MM AND IS PHYSICALLY 20% OVER VOLUME FOR THE CASE/BULLET COMBINATION AT FULL LENGTH OF 1.169.

LISTING SUCH DATA IS DANGEROUS AND NOT GOOD FOR THIS SITE.

mike in co

blaster
12-07-2009, 10:01 PM
"Originally Posted by blaster
I qualified expert several times with the M9, I have a stock 92FS which is the same gun and it is one of the most ACCURATE pistols I have ever used. I can run 100 rounds through it at 25yd offhand and hold 3" minus a couple of fliers.

As far as powerful enough I think it is plenty powerful. If you want to go all the way try 6.9gr of v3n38 behind a 147gr XTP for aboout 1200fps. If you can find a 38 special load that can do that I'd like to see it, that is near 357magnum performance. I guess it still can't have the "stopping power" the 38 with its 11gr heavier bullet at 1000fps.

In whoever told you that's defense the 38 does look more powerful"

maybe you can furnish us some chrono printed data to support this claim

as listed 6.9 and 147 xtp. is only 1125fps... variations happen.
BUT YOUR CLAIM IS ALSO OVER PRESUURE FOR A 9MM AND IS PHYSICALLY 20% OVER VOLUME FOR THE CASE/BULLET COMBINATION AT FULL LENGTH OF 1.169.

LISTING SUCH DATA IS DANGEROUS AND NOT GOOD FOR THIS SITE.

mike in co

Published data from the powder manufacturer check their 2008 manual.


For unpublished ie dangerous and not good for this site see machinist above who recommends using 38-44 HV data in a 38special.

Nate1778
12-07-2009, 10:28 PM
http://www.chunkypop.com/m_pictures/thisthreadsucks.jpg

blaster
12-07-2009, 10:42 PM
Nate your this thread sucks graphic is a downloader, discuised as a jpg, that tripped my symantec.

cabezaverde
12-07-2009, 10:53 PM
Nate your this thread sucks graphic is a downloader, discuised as a jpg, that tripped my symantec.
+

My antivirus also.

dualsport
12-07-2009, 11:12 PM
So that's what that was. What the hell? That graphic sucks.

Nate1778
12-07-2009, 11:12 PM
Don't know why, just a linked photo. Will relink.

cabezaverde
12-07-2009, 11:20 PM
Don't know why, just a linked photo. Will relink.


Maybe you should pass - probably a virus embedded in the jpeg.

chemist308
12-08-2009, 12:21 AM
Wow, this is a lively thread. A lot of 45 and 40 guys chiming in. The 45 and 40 are both modern cartridges. Really, the original question would be akin to comparing 44-40 to 45 ACP. Though maybe in that particular case the 44-40 guys and 45LC guys may actually have one on you... :-)

On a side note, I wonder if the only reason former military guys believe 45 is the better manstopper than the 9mm is that the military is limited to fmj ammo. If you're ammo can't expand, the wider the bullet, the better.

I personally don't get into caliber wars much anymore though. Outside of war, I've always believed if you started punching 1/4 inch holes in someone that was bothering you, they'd tend to go away one way or another... Fact is, the one you carry and can actually hit stuff with will be the one that saves your life. Case and point, I currently have to aim, concentrate and pay close attention to the basics when firing my 9. Lets face it, if the SHTF and I have thing against an armed assailent, and I'm probably as good as dead. But hand me a 22 lr in semi auto, and I can walk 15 paces, turn, draw and in rapid succession empty the entire clip into a 8 inch round target or do same against 2 or more targets. Knowing that, you tell me what I'm better off carrying at the moment...

StarMetal
12-08-2009, 12:24 AM
Wow, this is a lively thread. A lot of 45 and 40 guys chiming in. The 45 and 40 are both modern cartridges. Really, the original question would be akin to comparing 44-40 to 45 ACP. Though maybe in that particular case the 44-40 guys and 45LC guys may actually have one on you... :-)

On a side note, I wonder if the only reason former military guys believe 45 is the better manstopper than the 9mm is that the military is limited to fmj ammo. If you're ammo can't expand, the wider the bullet, the better.

I personally don't get into caliber wars much anymore though. Outside of war, I've always believed if you started punching 1/4 inch holes in someone that was bothering you, they'd tend to go away one way or another... Fact is, the one you carry and can actually hit stuff with will be the one that saves your life. Case and point, I currently have to aim, concentrate and pay close attention to the basics when firing my 9. Lets face it, if the SHTF and I have thing against an armed assailent, and I'm probably as good as dead. But hand me a 22 lr in semi auto, and I can walk 15 paces, turn, draw and in rapid succession empty the entire clip into a 8 inch round target or do same against 2 or more targets. Knowing that, you tell me what I'm better off carrying at the moment...

Where to you get the 45 acp is a modern cartridge? It was designed by Browning around 1904. The 9mm was designed by Luger around 1902. The 40 S&W debuted around 1990.

Joe

lwknight
12-08-2009, 01:20 AM
The problem in a shoot out is that standing and trading shots with a BG is a no win situation.
Modern technology has bullets that will drop the BG a lot faster and give you a better chance to survive. They only drop dead in Hollywood. If the agverage total stop takes 14 seconds with cheap ammo and the high tech stuff totally stops the attack in 9 seconds, thats 5 seconds of not being shot back at. 45 acp is old but, the bullets are a lot better than they were in the early 1900s. Actually, the same for all calibers.

Russel Nash
12-08-2009, 01:46 AM
helg way back on the first page wrote:


Did anybody slug bore of the 9mm 92?

I have three barrels, and they all slug to .357" or more. Chamber at neck is over .382" in all three. Needless to say that I had to make an oversized ammo to get reasonable accuracy from these barrels with cast bullets. Is it my karma, or the barrel is designed to be that loose?

I have two Beretta 92 FS Brig Inox's and two 96 Brig Inox's. The 96's are the .40 cal versions.

Nope, I haven't slugged one barrel yet... not even my .45's.

I forgot what I got my sizing die for the Star in... if it is .356 or what?

Well, I guess I could look on the bright side... if my Star dies are too small, I can always get them opened up...if they were too big to start out with..well... I would be SOL. :groner:

But, yeah, you are not the first person I have heard actually mention the bore sizes on the Beretta 92's were a little....err.... different.

mike in co
12-08-2009, 02:06 AM
Published data from the powder manufacturer check their 2008 manual.


For unpublished ie dangerous and not good for this site see machinist above who recommends using 38-44 HV data in a 38special.


blaster...do you actually use this load ?

what is your oal
what is your case vol
how full is the case with 6.9gr

the loading guide does not show this as a compressed load, yet quick load show this load, from thier guide as 125 of useable volume and 40kpsi at 1100 fps ftom a 4 in bbl.

i'll listen but quick load has never been this far off before....maybe they got a preproduction sample.
mike in co
and yes he is next.

mike in co

mike in co
12-08-2009, 02:11 AM
IIRC, it's isn't too hard to drive a 158 at that velocity from a .38 with 12 grains of 2400. Nothing more than the 70 odd year old 38-44 HV load, which predates the .357 magnum. ;)

ANOTHER PERSON TRYING TO DESTROY OUR BOARD BY PUBLISHING DANGEROUS DATA.

I HOPE SOME GUY BLOWS HIMSELF UP AND SUES YOUR BUTT!

A 158 IN A 38 SPECIAL WITH 12 GR OF 2400 IS 25KPSI...JUST 50% OVERLOAD OF THE SAAMI 17 FOR THE GUN.....EVEN +P IS ONLY 18.5K

THAT IS WITH A LEAD BOOLIT!

SOME PEOPLES KIDS...

mike in co

Russel Nash
12-08-2009, 05:06 AM
I worked with a Marine once. I guess they drummed this mantra into him:

"I only believe half of what I see and none of what I hear."

That seems like a pretty good rule to live by, especially with anything reloading related.

Bret4207
12-08-2009, 08:00 AM
ANOTHER PERSON TRYING TO DESTROY OUR BOARD BY PUBLISHING DANGEROUS DATA.

I HOPE SOME GUY BLOWS HIMSELF UP AND SUES YOUR BUTT!

A 158 IN A 38 SPECIAL WITH 12 GR OF 2400 IS 25KPSI...JUST 50% OVERLOAD OF THE SAAMI 17 FOR THE GUN.....EVEN +P IS ONLY 18.5K

THAT IS WITH A LEAD BOOLIT!

SOME PEOPLES KIDS...

mike in co

Seems to me I've seen this before, eh Mike? Published data changes over the years and that was published data years back. So we're right back to your argument and my argument. Neither of us seems to want to use "published" data, do we?

mike in co
12-08-2009, 10:35 AM
Seems to me I've seen this before, eh Mike? Published data changes over the years and that was published data years back. So we're right back to your argument and my argument. Neither of us seems to want to use "published" data, do we?


naw ..i think you aare miss reading me.

if we are going to compare 9mm and 38 special, we need to be on a level playing field. the simple version is to use saami presure limits. i have been using std, tho we could go to plus p if we wanted. i dodnt see a need to rehash what "i do" vs what "you do". you and i have doen that before.

the original question was the 9mm enough, i saw nothing ask how hot i can load one.

so the two exceptions i have seen i have questioned. one is this one that you commented on. quickload shows the data i published. the second one if in fact listed ny the maker, but when run in quickload, it is a groos over load.....so i have asked for some data of current powder volume.

thanks
mike in co

Oldtimer
12-08-2009, 01:19 PM
I understand this thread is about the difference between the .38 and 9mm. The reason the U.S. military canned the anemic .38, was during the Philippine conflict. Our guys were getting their butt kicked because the .38 had no stopping power against the drugged up gomers that were over running them. Hence the .45. The rest is history. If I remember correctly, the 9mm was considered, but not for long. Bob

mike in co
12-08-2009, 02:00 PM
I understand this thread is about the difference between the .38 and 9mm. The reason the U.S. military canned the anemic .38, was during the Philippine conflict. Our guys were getting their butt kicked because the .38 had no stopping power against the drugged up gomers that were over running them. Hence the .45. The rest is history. If I remember correctly, the 9mm was considered, but not for long. Bob

get all the facts.....they attacked bandaged! to minimize the effects of being shot.
the 45's knocked them down......
it was a unique situtation that brought us the 1911.

again you are comparing rule controled military engagement with personal defense today with modern bullets..that will get the job done if placed well.

the fbi gave up on nines because they could not attack cars with them...they got thier butts handed to them in fla.....they over reacted(maybe) and went to the 10mm.

as self defense it unlikely you will have to attack a car.
and no i did not say that a 45acp will not work.

mike in co

sheepdog
12-08-2009, 02:08 PM
Not all 9mm loadings all the same but id put them roughly in the same range. The 38 is slower but wider with more average grain projectile.

Nice thing is you get away with using a 38 LSWC in pinch as a defensive load alot better than 9mm ball.

9mm ball only has an edge that is defeats low end body armor well.

I wouldn't want to use either in war as a sure stopper. If a guy is charging me with a bayonet or a grenade I don't want him bleeding to death over my corpse.

But CCW isn't war, I don't see the need to carry a 500 S&W to defend myself, I carry a 380 in my pocket, 40 in car, and a 357 in the wife's car (I don't trust her with an automatic). People turn their noses up at 380 but I still haven't found anyone that wants to field test the Corbon DPX. ;)

Oldtimer
12-08-2009, 02:44 PM
All things being equal, I'm not sure I could tell the difference between a gomer trying to jump in my foxhole or a spaced out druggie trying to bash out my window while sitting at a red light, or a punk gang member with a 10 inch blade trying to kill me for my wallet. I want all the horsepower I can get, cause you may not get but one. Just my feelings. Bob

Recluse
12-08-2009, 02:48 PM
the fbi gave up on nines because they could not attack cars with them...they got thier butts handed to them in fla.....they over reacted(maybe) and went to the 10mm.
mike in co

Mike, you need to "get all the facts" yourself.

The FBI left the 9mm, largely due to the Miami shootout, but not just because they "could not attack cars with them." The number one reason was that the Winchester 9mm Silvertip failed to perform as advertised and as it had under carefully controlled labratory tests.

THAT spooked the Bureau, and the Bureau being the Bureau, naturally they had to overreact, overthink, overspend and overreach. Simply changing ammo wasn't chic enough for the Gucci and Calvin Klein adorned cops. They went to the S&W 1076, an excellent gun, but the little girl agents and sissy-boy agents could not handle the gun's recoil. So, Bureau being the Bureau and federal law enforcement's poster child for Polictical Correctness and Social Equality, dumped the 10mm and went searching elsewhere for something else. And ironically, the FBI used their guns the least. I rarely met an FBI agent that even CARRIED his gun.

Yet, during the same time, the 9mm remained good enough for DEA and ATF. And during that time, .357 Magnum remained good enough for Border Patrol agents, who also had the option of carrying either a Sig or a Glock 9mm. Younger guys went for the 9mm, older experienced guys stayed with the .357.

In the Marshals Service, we had an issue gun--A S&W 64, of which the only time I shot it was during the initial qualification at the academy. We were allowed to carry anything we wanted so long as it was .380 or larger and first trigger pull was DA. I carried a Beretta 92 for a while, traded it for a Taurus 92 (which I still have and carry regularly) as it had the "cock & lock" frame-mounted safety I prefer. With +P+ 124 gr Hydroshocks out of the 4.92" barrel, I had VERY close to .357 Magnum ballistics--but with 15 of them in the magazine.

But, I finished up my time carrying a Sig P220 as my last station was a smaller field office and I covered a lot more country in remote areas of western Texas, western Oklahoma and most of New Mexico. I rarely had backup, so I wanted a knock 'em down hard bullet.

However, when I was tracking a real bad apple of a fugitive, I carried a six-inch 686 in a shoulder holster loaded with 125gr Federal .357 Magnums. I feared nothing and nobody with that gun. I still don't.

The Navy SEALs have killed a lot of bad guys with 9mm rounds. Conversely, for years, the FBI's primary issue-round was the tried, tested and true .38 Special in a 158 gr LSWCHP.

I'm pretty much of the training I got way back when: Long as it's .380 or bigger, I'm fine with it depending upon what circumstances I could possibly be in.

:coffee:

lwknight
12-08-2009, 02:55 PM
What Recluse says it the real facts of the matter. Except fot the 380 or bigger statement that IMO should have been 9mm or bigger.

Bret4207
12-08-2009, 02:58 PM
Recluse- did you ever get a chance to ACTUALLY chrono that 124 +p+? I've chrono'd 357 125 factory at over 1400 from a 4" M19, some broke 1500, but the +p+ 9mm 124 I chrono'd only just broke 1200 from a Glock. Now that was a good 15 years ago, but it really put me off the 9mm.

Recluse
12-08-2009, 03:07 PM
Recluse- did you ever get a chance to ACTUALLY chrono that 124 +p+? I've chrono'd 357 125 factory at over 1400 from a 4" M19, some broke 1500, but the +p+ 9mm 124 I chrono'd only just broke 1200 from a Glock. Now that was a good 15 years ago, but it really put me off the 9mm.

Actually, we did.

We took some stuff issed to us and made for us by Federal and chrono'd it. I remember firing it from the 4.92" Taurus barrel and getting just under 1350 fps with the 124 grain bullet.

At the time, I had chrono'd some Federal 125 grain .357 Magnum I had been given by a Texas DPS state trooper. I ran it through my four-inch 66 and it was +/- 25' in the 1400 fps range.

I reasoned that I was roughly within 10% of .357 Magnum ballistics, but with almost 200% more ammo instantly available. And since at that time (mid-80's), we had started going to the double-tap, the 9mm gave me eight bad guys I could double-tap opposed to only three bad guys I could double-tap with the Model 66.

That was all fine and good when I was stationed in areas like Miami, Houston and Dallas. But when I got a field office and spent more time out in the sticks, my instincts were screaming at me to get a bigger bullet.

They were right, too.

:coffee:

lwknight
12-08-2009, 03:13 PM
I have chrono'ed 115 grain Mag-tech +p+ at 1300 from my 3.9" ruger and 1370 from a friends 4.5" Smith. I have 124 grain handloads that chrono to 1375 in the 4.5" Smith 5906 and 1300 in my 3.9" Ruger P-95. Also both rounds tested in a 5" barrel Taurus 24/7 gave only slightly higher velocities in both.
I wish I had a 9mm rifle with a 16" or so barrel to test. May end up with a Ugly cheap High Point.

StarMetal
12-08-2009, 03:14 PM
Recluse- did you ever get a chance to ACTUALLY chrono that 124 +p+? I've chrono'd 357 125 factory at over 1400 from a 4" M19, some broke 1500, but the +p+ 9mm 124 I chrono'd only just broke 1200 from a Glock. Now that was a good 15 years ago, but it really put me off the 9mm.

Gee Bret, how much you need from a 9mm, although Recluse showed hotter loads then you got? A 124 grain bullet at 1200 fps is pretty decent.

Joe

jameslovesjammie
12-08-2009, 04:11 PM
I understand this thread is about the difference between the .38 and 9mm. The reason the U.S. military canned the anemic .38, was during the Philippine conflict. Our guys were getting their butt kicked because the .38 had no stopping power against the drugged up gomers that were over running them. Hence the .45. The rest is history. If I remember correctly, the 9mm was considered, but not for long. Bob

Yes, the .38 was dropped...the .38 Long Colt. The Long Colt pushed a 150 grain round nose 770 fps.

sheepdog
12-08-2009, 05:48 PM
Yet, during the same time, the 9mm remained good enough for DEA and ATF.

Really? How'd that work out for them at Mount Carmel? ;) Think the only person they shot was Michael Schroeder (unarmed I might add).

Just kidding. The armed forces switch to 9mm had to do with body armor and helmet tests NATO did in the earlier 80s where they found even very light layers of kevlar or ballistics nylons would stop 45 acp ball while the 9mm zipped right through. Plus the vast masses of Walther P-38s left over from Germany in use by the forces stationed there didn't hurt. That couples with the same mentality of "light round = more ammo" made the switch a clear choice on paper. Why we choose to go with a foreign made sidearm though I'll never understand.

I been toying with the idea of using the 190 grain keith .358 for defensive loads for my moms 38 special. Would be slow to get started but slow to stop as well.

lwknight
12-08-2009, 06:02 PM
Mee thinks that this dead horse has been kicked to death and is getting rotten.

sheepdog
12-08-2009, 06:08 PM
Probably so. Why are dead horses so fun to kick at first?

Ricochet
12-08-2009, 08:25 PM
The 9mm was developed at the request of the Brits, who felt the 7.65mm Luger lacked stopping power. The Germans were already using the 7.65mm, but quickly adopted the 9mm.

Recluse
12-08-2009, 08:36 PM
Mee thinks that this dead horse has been kicked to death and is getting rotten.

I don't care much for "caliber wars," but I am absolutely fascinated by caliber discussions. The beauty of Cast Boolits is that we tend to have far more discussions than wars.

I've been shooting .38 Special for 40 years, and 9mm for almost as long. Been reloading both of them for decades, yet I've picked up some pretty good ideas and information just in this discussion alone.

Nobody here has argued that shot placement is key to any caliber of round, and most pretty much agree it is what you're comfortable and confident in. I've seen more people, as I suspect many other LEOs--past and present--have killed by lowly .22LR and .25ACP than I have by 9mm. I've also seen a lot of corpses who became that way due to cheap-o .38 Special "Saturday Night Specials."

In almost every case, shot-placement counted for a primary reason that the corpse became a corpse.

My bottom line? I like GUNS, no matter what caliber they shoot. And I'll take a gun, of any caliber, if I'm in a tight situation over a knife or baseball bat. :)

:coffee:

JohnH
12-08-2009, 10:50 PM
A few thoughts...

In the rest of the world, there is little to no disscussion of the merits of the 9mm Parabellum, it is and has been the service cartridge of police and military since just prior to WWII and shows no sign of being replaced by anything.

As to the physics of the cartridges, what must be remembered about foot pounds of energy is just what that is. a foot pound is the amount of energy required to raise one pound, one foot, in one minute. So if our boolit makes 300 ft. pds. and we could apply that energy to a 300 pound object, we could raise it one foot in one minute, or we could raise one pound 300 feet in one minute.

But the real question is this, since it takes moving that 115 grain boolit at least 1200 feet per second to get that 300 fpe from it, just how long can we apply that energy in a target that is only about one foot thick? Just how much work can we expect that boolit to do?

No matter how it is sliced, incapacitation is the result of one or both of these two things.... blood loss or spinal cord/nerve damage. Blood loss, while highly effective, can take time. witohout immediate attention, a human being will bleed to death from a major artery being severed in as little as 5 minutes. A lot can happen in that five minutes. A severed spinal cord may not kill, but it will certainly stop the fight.

Consider that a whitetail deer with it's chest blown out by with a 150 grain bullet at speeds between 2200 and 3000 fps can and do run as much as 100 yards from the point of impact. And consider that physiologically, humans and deer are very similar in construction. Just something to think on....

The third factor and likely the one we most count on in the heat of the moment is psychological. How a person percieves pain, percieves how they shoud act on being shot, percieves your having shot them and percieves your willingness to continue the fight have as much bearing on the outcome of a potentially lethal encounter as how much gun you use and where you place the shot.

Training, training, training, training... and train some more. IPSC or some similar (Three gun events may appeal to you more) competion will give you an edge when the balloon goes up. Punching paper is good as far as it goes for training the eye, hand and fingers, but there is mindset as well. Start with a copy of "No Second Place Winners" by Bill Jordon and enroll in a good self defense course that puts as much or more emphasis on tactics as shooting, your primary weapon is between your ears.

jonk
12-08-2009, 11:06 PM
I'd be fine with either one. My home defense gun is a 12 gauge pump leaned in the corner behind my bed. A loaded .38 is in my office (at home that is) and a loaded .32 in my bathroom.

Any one of them would be fine. I want the 12 gauge (loaded with buckshot first, then the last shell is #4 shot, figuring if they get that close it will be enough) at night as I won't have my glasses on. A .38 is fine. The .32 is a bit small, but it fits well under a towel... no one is getting me while I'm on the crapper.

As said, it's like a .308 vs a 30-06... or a 12 gauge vs. a 16 gauge at close range. Theoretically some difference but not enough to worry about. Just personal preference.

Oldtimer
12-09-2009, 12:21 AM
Now we're getting to the real stuff. A short barrel scatter gun with b-shot cant be beat at short range. Bob

crgaston
12-09-2009, 02:33 AM
no one is getting me while I'm on the crapper.


You're assuming anyone would WANT to get you while you're on the crapper!:kidding:

I agree 100% with your reasoning, though. Anything is better than nothing, and people tend to quit trying to be aggressive with appropriately placed holes in them. With modern bullet technology, the differencs between service calibers has narrowed, not increased.

Just my opinion,

mike in co
12-09-2009, 11:28 AM
I swear I'm not looking for a caliber war here, but why is the 9mm taking so much flack that weaker cartridges are being placed ahead of it?


plain and simple...bias...lack of education, narrow minded, preconcieved ideas. likes revolvers, does not like semi-autos.....

some or all of the above

mike in co

Tazman1602
12-09-2009, 11:50 AM
OK this may have been gone over and you old boys can jump me all you want. Have tried to stay away from this thread due to the arguments but there's something some of the younger shooters may not realize.

Now I ain't that old compared to some of these guys but I've got reloading manuals going back 40-50 years. I'm not gonna quote from them, don't want to start a poopstorm here again but let me tell you young shooters this:

Every single manual I've got from the late 60's/early 70's lists much higher loads than that of todays manuals. if I compare that to the data in my 2009 manuals........and for .38 special in particular.....those old manuals list some standard accepted loads that are more than the max loads listed today. 38 is still a very viable cartridge. 9mm is a good cartridge, hell the only bad cartridge is the one that doesn't go BANG! when someone is trying to kill you.

I'm *guessing* the lower load values in modern manuals are due to liability issues but I really don't know for sure.

.38 vs. 9mm? I like them both. I have them both. But give me my .45acp anyday.

OK now barbecue me guys...............

Art

lwknight
12-09-2009, 11:54 AM
Taz, would you like Hickory or Mesquite?

sheepdog
12-09-2009, 12:10 PM
http://n3t.net/humor/motivation/9mm.jpg

Tazman1602
12-09-2009, 12:13 PM
Taz, would you like Hickory or Mesquite?

At my age it doesn't matter. I've had crow fried, crow baked, crow raw, crow stuffed. I've eaten so much crow I kind of like it now...........<GRIN>

Bret4207
12-09-2009, 01:03 PM
Gee Bret, how much you need from a 9mm, although Recluse showed hotter loads then you got? A 124 grain bullet at 1200 fps is pretty decent.

Joe

Not quite what I was getting at Joe. I've heard of people claiming 14-1450 or even more from 124 9mm ammo and I've never seen anything remotely close in real world handguns.

Yeah, a 124 bullet at 1200 is fine, a 158FN at the same velocity is even more better and I can do that with a 38 or 357, or even get more with a lighter boolit. I just have a real, real heavy dose of skepticism of some of the claims made for unreal velocities from the 9mm.

Russel Nash
12-09-2009, 01:45 PM
The USPSA Open division shooters are taking regular 9mm Parabellum/Luger brass and getting 124 grain projectiles to come zipping out of it at 1, 331 plus feet per second.

See...for USPSA... it is all about the power factor, which is:

bullet weight in grains X velocity in feet per second = some number in the 100 or 200 thousands.

We typically keep the 3 digits on the left drop the 3 on the right.

So in USPSA the cutoff for major power factor is 165,000

so 165,000 divided by 124 grains = 1,330 feet per second.

As far as JohnH's post up above... I am not so sure about the energy thing.

When I think foot-pounds, I kinda automatically think of torque settings on a wrench. It doesn't matter if can put 250 foot pounds of torque on a bolt over the course of a second, or a minute, or an hour.

I think when you take some energy component and somehow factor time into it, what you are actually talking about in technical physics terms, I think, is power.

As in horsepower, where just one horsepower is defined as moving 550 pounds a distance of one foot in one second. One HP = 745.7 watts .

slight thread drift ahead...what really bugs me about all this talk of 9mm this vs. .38 Special that... or any other caliber...is that usually this picture gets posted:

http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/wp-content/uploads/handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

:roll:

(sigh)

People are trying to claim things based off a 2 dimensional static snapshot of a very dynamic process.

Watch these slow motion vids of the Barnes X bullets :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL-liPFY5-I&feature=PlayList&p=A6297D78799B8EDB&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=59

What is needed, I think, is some sort of seismograph connected to a block of ballistic gelatin. Then multiply the seismograph readings by the distance traveled.

Another thing that would be nice would be an industry accepted standard for ballistic gelatin mixtures and block weight.

Russel Nash
12-09-2009, 01:48 PM
sheepdog posted:

http://n3t.net/humor/motivation/9mm.jpg

That would look really cool on the back of a T-shirt. :bigsmyl2:

mike in co
12-09-2009, 02:54 PM
OK this may have been gone over and you old boys can jump me all you want. Have tried to stay away from this thread due to the arguments but there's something some of the younger shooters may not realize.

Now I ain't that old compared to some of these guys but I've got reloading manuals going back 40-50 years. I'm not gonna quote from them, don't want to start a poopstorm here again but let me tell you young shooters this:

Every single manual I've got from the late 60's/early 70's lists much higher loads than that of todays manuals. if I compare that to the data in my 2009 manuals........and for .38 special in particular.....those old manuals list some standard accepted loads that are more than the max loads listed today. 38 is still a very viable cartridge. 9mm is a good cartridge, hell the only bad cartridge is the one that doesn't go BANG! when someone is trying to kill you.

I'm *guessing* the lower load values in modern manuals are due to liability issues but I really don't know for sure.

.38 vs. 9mm? I like them both. I have them both. But give me my .45acp anyday.

OK now barbecue me guys...............

Art
modern intrumentation, better data for the most part...some lawyer krap in there i'm sure, but not much..it is a competitive game...my powder is bigger than yours.

mike in co
12-09-2009, 03:04 PM
Not quite what I was getting at Joe. I've heard of people claiming 14-1450 or even more from 124 9mm ammo and I've never seen anything remotely close in real world handguns.

Yeah, a 124 bullet at 1200 is fine, a 158FN at the same velocity is even more better and I can do that with a 38 or 357, or even get more with a lighter boolit. I just have a real, real heavy dose of skepticism of some of the claims made for unreal velocities from the 9mm.


as much as i hate gun rags, there was an artical in the 80's on converting a 9x19 to 9x21 to gain case capacity for shooting 115's real fast......i dont have it around, but shooting 135's in a 9x21 at 1300 has been around for a while.. that translates to 124/5 at 1400 and a 115 at 1500.....

how safe/ how long i dont know...i shot my factory cz85 9x21 for better than 10 years in ipsc...even after they were banned, i shot it in club matches. i have so much 9x21 brass i had another gun built and shoot 135s(38/357 nosler fp) at 1100/1200 fps just cause.




mike in co

1Shirt
12-09-2009, 03:34 PM
Not that my opinion on this thread counts much, but a solid head shot from either would be a dead intruder. I would prefer the 38S, but I prefer revolvers over autos. IF, I had to use either in a home defense situation, would probably go with the 9 in a High Power just due to fire power, and I am a lousy handgunner. However, am not bad with a short bbl side by side 20g, and that would be my first choice for home defense.
1Shirt!:coffee:

1874Sharps
12-09-2009, 03:48 PM
Gentlemen,

I suppose some of these issues, which are based upon subjective opinion and experience as well hard fact, will never be settled conclusively. It is akin to the 30-06 verses 270 agument, it would seem. Having read some of this discussion I am reminded what my CAS shooting buddy, Dry Creek Dan, recently told me about killing humans verses killing animals. He said how it has struck him how strangely hard it is sometimes to kill a human and then at other times how easy it is, while with animals it is much more consistent and predictable. Dan would know, as he saw much combat as a Marine in Vietnam and has been a lifelong avid hunter (thank the Lord I have not had that experience). I have heard accounts of assailants taking multiple hits with respectable calibers and not going down, especially when certain illicit drugs are concerned. What all this tells me is, "Go big or stay home." In other words, carry the largest practical handgun that you can within various parameters. When carrying concealed in public in general I carry a full size 45 ACP or 10mm in a fanny pack. Yes, I know, I probably look like a Japanese tourist, but I do not care. When in church I carry a S&W J-frame 357 or 38 in my pocket -- not as good perhaps, but probably adequate. In the past before I got the J-frame I used a 32 ACP Colt 1903 Pocket Pistol. That is admittedly on the small side, but it had to fit my pocket and it is what I had and it was certainly better than nothing.

Loads in manuals certainly have changed over the decades for the weaker. The legal climate has changed and the accuracy and means of direct measurement of pressure have helped fascilitate this. Some of the older loads, so I have read, are over SAAMI pressures as determined by modern measure. Has the safety fudge factor gotten bigger too? I am sure it has.

Tazman1602
12-09-2009, 04:04 PM
LMAO ----------

http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc336/Tazman1602/45acp.jpg

thx997303
12-09-2009, 04:23 PM
Oh, now you're just gonna start another argument. :kidding:

Bret4207
12-09-2009, 05:45 PM
Actually I have the ultimate answer- The Extreme Tactical .687 Super Sniper Long Range Tactical Extreme Operators Special Parabellum MAGNUM!!!!! Using a proprietary powder manufacturer in Sodom NY by inbred pygmy dwarf Welshmen and a specially produced depleted uranium 788 gr wasp waisted jagged edge Silver Talon protruding hollow cavity projectile at approximately 13,756 fps from the 3.596 inch barrel, previously unknown tears in the time/space continuum have been both created and closed! Just think of the possibilities! No longer will policemen be forced to shoot a bad guy, now we just shoot near them and in the blink of an eye they'll be transported into the 327th dimension and wind up on some planet like Xwebnk 3, and I think we all know what THAT means! No doubt this will negate all gang related issues, credit card debt, and the increasing presence of overweight, spandex clad women in the area near the Victorias Secret store at your local mall.

Pre-production orders may be placed by calling BR-549. Operators are standing by....

dubber123
12-09-2009, 05:50 PM
LMAO ----------

http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc336/Tazman1602/45acp.jpg

Now thas funny right there... :lol:

Tazman1602
12-09-2009, 06:21 PM
Pre-production orders may be placed by calling BR-549. Operators are standing by....

Dang it Bret I called that number and got some hillbilly feller said his name was Junior Samples? I'm not old enought to have ever seen the show but he said he was on the movin pitcher show once............

:kidding:

MT Gianni
12-09-2009, 08:18 PM
Does it shoot around corners too Bret?

MT Gianni
12-09-2009, 08:19 PM
The nine may not be ideal in all situations but I have yet to see anyone volunteer to catch one or a mag full.

chemist308
12-10-2009, 01:21 AM
The nine may not be ideal in all situations but I have yet to see anyone volunteer to catch one or a mag full.

What, no volunteers? Sissies! Hey, if she can do it:
She does it! (http://dorothydietrich.com/resorts.html)

And, this guy didn't even have real teeth:
UK Bullet Catcher with false teeth (http://www.metro.co.uk/news/world/334591-man-catches-bullet-in-teeth-spits-it-out-shooter-flees)

EDK
12-10-2009, 11:25 PM
A long time ago...pre 10 mm/40 S&W...someone made a comment when the LEOs started switching to autos. "If your issue gun is a 38 Special, a 9 mm is a step up; if you have 357 (with 357 ammo!) the only thing better about a 9 is magazine capacity and speed of reloads." Duty ammo choices back then weren't too good either...and sometimes not much better now.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

Oldtimer
12-11-2009, 11:59 AM
Where do you get dies for this new .687?

vincewarde
12-12-2009, 06:53 AM
Economy. Because it is so common, everything is cheaper. I just bought 3500 rounds of once fired brass for $40.00 plus shipping. Ammo used to be so cheap that reloading didn't make sense. Now that I cast, I can load a box of ammo for under $5.00. That gives me lots of ammo to practice with.

As for stopping power, as a former paramedic, I can tell you that shot placement is everything. A highly motivated attacker can have several seconds of useful consciousness unless you take out the spine or brain. I would rather hit center mass with a 9mm than hit a bit off to the left or right with a .45. A solid hit from either gun will stop most people, but it's amazing what people can do to others even while they are dying. Especially if they are on some of the more popular street drugs.

I think that the 9mm, and the .38 are two rounds that really need expanding bullets to be effective - but that's just my opinion. I would not want to be shot with a 9mm FMJ or a .38 158gr lead round nose.

Echo
12-12-2009, 01:46 PM
IMHO, the typical shooter, be he LEO or perp, isn't an accurate shooter. The LEO may be better than the typical perp, but still - I believe a .45 off center is better than a 9 off center. Just IMHO...

thx997303
12-12-2009, 06:04 PM
Accept nothing off center.

All rounds at least in the 6 inch center of mass. Nothing less.

Anything else is gonna get you killed.

This is my opinion.

Crash_Corrigan
12-12-2009, 06:49 PM
I had given her a LLama 380 ACP pistol which she shot well and very accurately but she {due to medical reasons} could not work the slide well. I removed a coil from the slide spring but that did not solve the issue.

I dragged her to the gun shop and showed her a Ruger LCP in .380. She did not like how it felt in her hand and she could not easily work the slide also.

Then my gunnie showed her a SKKY pistol. She liked it. It felt good in her hand. He showed her how to work the slide and she could manage it easily. It had a long double action only trigger, had second strike capability, held ten rounds, had decent sights and had a safety which she could manage while maintaing a good grip on the gun.

Bottom line is that I bought it for her. After the 3 day mandatory waiting period we went to the shop to pick it up. I aked about some good self defence rounds for it and a decent holster. We found a decent holster for it and the gunnie comes up with a box of Hornady's newest and greatest self defence rounds with a tiny polymer ball inside the folded metal petals of the bullet.

It was 9 MM! I said "ain't that supposed to be a .380?" and he said "they do not make a 380..only a 9 MM".

I about fell over. I was perfectly happy with a 380 for her but a 9 MM was like a gift from the gods. Hereabouts 380 ammo is hard to find and I do not find much brass on the range in that caliber. However I have buckets of 9 MM brass and many decent molds for that caliber. Furthermore I know that the 9 will certainly outperform the 380 in the defensive department.

I am a happy camper. Yes we did try out a variety of .38 and 357 revolvers but none of them felt as good in her hand as that cheapo SKKY pistol.

BOOM BOOM
12-12-2009, 06:54 PM
HI,
Nope the 9mm isn't enough, but them neither is the 38.
The 357 is marginal.
Start w/ 45acp in autos, or maybe a 10mm.

41 :bigsmyl2:mag in revolvers.:bigsmyl2: better a 44 mag:bigsmyl2:

lwknight
12-12-2009, 07:06 PM
I have not read every single post but, I have read most. So far no one has brought anything other than opinions and defending what they happen to own.
The FBI has a lot of statistics and so much money on research that they are considered reliable and informed even by the government hating skeptics.

This thread has gone to a worthless pointless rediculas arguement doing nothing at all to help inform someone of anything other than your favorite gun that gramma left you.
Big Deal!! What a waste of server space.

Bret4207
12-13-2009, 08:45 AM
Having been forced to use the FBI approved 9mm 147 subsonic rounds I have little faith in your biting assessment Mr. Knight. If you had nothing helpful to add, why take up even more bandwidth?

shdwlkr
12-13-2009, 12:13 PM
having read most of this thread I am left with the thought that what difference does the caliber, bullet or speed of the bullet make if you can't hit center of mass with it.
I know you can have a 22 lr all the way up to a 500 S&w and if you can't hit what you are shooting at it, you are going to get hurt or killed.
I have 9mm,38super,357mag, 44spl,45acp and they all work and will get the job done. Only difference is in the recoil you have to deal with.
Now If I maybe in combat I would rather have a 45 acp in hand then a 9mm Beretta more from a stand point of standing up to combat conditions then anything else and the 45acp has a long history of getting the job done for troops. I think it boils down to more of choice then anything else. Do I think the 45 is a better round then the 9mm don't really know just know the firearm they are in and the Beretta isn't standing up to well and many troops are going back to the 45acp and that has to say something about the firearm and round.
Me I have what I have for my reasons and my reasons only.
my .05 in the thread

Big Dave
12-13-2009, 02:08 PM
In the end it all comes down to what YOU can shoot effectivly, and by that I mean consistantly put them inside the 6 ring or better the 9, 10, or X. After that bigger is better but only if you can hit with it. I would far rather be missed with a 458 mag than hit with a 22 short. The same goes for high count magazines. If you put the first one where it needs to go you really don't need 15 follow up shots. Thats why my Dad started me and my brothers and sister out with single shot guns. Despite modern weapons theory, accuracy is still the only measure of effestiveness. Volume of fire is costly BS

NHlever
12-13-2009, 03:06 PM
A long time ago I read an article that was well written about the expansion of bullets in snubbie .38 Specials. Along with things that most folks already know, one thing I found interesting was that the Colt guns with their faster 1-14 twist barrels consistantly out expanded their S&W counterparts in the test with the same loads. It hasn't been mentioned, but with expanding hollowpoint bullets I would think that the 9mm with it's 1-10 twist (usually) would outperform most .38 specials with the same weight bullets.