Lightest 9mm load w/ bullseye

[d_striker]

What's the lightest charge you've used with bullseye in 9mm with cast bullets? I plan on getting some reduced power recoil springs. I have heard that loading too light could cause a kaboom. Oh yeah, boolit is 124 grains.

[Windy City Kid]

With the Lyman 356402 mold. It's the 120gr. TC boolit. With my lead alloy the boolits weighed 125grs. I loaded it with 3.8grs of bullseye, they would just cycle in my Springfield XD-9 Tactical. This was a very soft shooting load and was accurate @ 25yards.

3.7grs of Bullseye wouldn't cycle reliably with the stock recoil spring.

With a lighter recoil spring you could go down to 3.5grs of Bullseye and still pretty accurate. This is a real powder puff load, it recoiled like a .38spl. 148gr. WC with 2.8grs. of Bullseye.


WCK

[Edubya]

For each gun it will be different. The most popular .38 target load is 2.8 BE. I imagine that you could do that in a 9mm also. The kaboom thing is caused if you squeeze off a round and it does not exit (a "squib load"), then you squeeze off another one and it impacts the first one, you've got a kaboom!
EW

[jonk]

I have fired 2 gr of bullseye behind a 158 gr bullet. In a 9mm. Just barely operated the gun. 2.5 was happiness and very accurate. This was the Lee 158 gr GC SWC.

Bottom line is you won't know what the minimum is to operate YOUR gun.. Start at 2-2.5 gr and work up in batches of 5 .1 gr at a time.

[d_striker]

I have fired 2 gr of bullseye behind a 158 gr bullet. In a 9mm. Just barely operated the gun. 2.5 was happiness and very accurate. This was the Lee 158 gr GC SWC.

Bottom line is you won't know what the minimum is to operate YOUR gun.. Start at 2-2.5 gr and work up in batches of 5 .1 gr at a time.

wow. Do you know the approximate velocity of 2.0-2.5 gr?

[beagle]

3.5 gr of Bullseye and a 356402 functions both of my High Powers and gives me 1010 FPS.

I imagine I could come down on that load and have it still function. Kind of depends on the gun I'd think.

That load shoots accurately and functions posittively so I keep it as my shooting load./beagle

[rwt101]

I ave a new S&W SW9VE and I just got back from the range and had to run 4.2gr BE with a 130gr LRN at 1.140 oal. It cycled good. I had tried 4.0 and had problems with not cycling.

Bob T

[d_striker]

3.5 gr of Bullseye and a 356402 functions both of my High Powers and gives me 1010 FPS.

I imagine I could come down on that load and have it still function. Kind of depends on the gun I'd think.

That load shoots accurately and functions posittively so I keep it as my shooting load./beagle

Yeah, 3.5 gr be will function 98% of the time in my xdm. 2 out of 100 rounds will fte. 3.8 gr functions reliably.

I'm going to try 2.5-3.0 gr with a reduced power recoil spring.

[awaveritt]

I've just started casting Lee TL-356-124=2R and loading with 3.5 gr. BE.

I've fired 15 test cartridges in my CZ75B successfully cycling the action and plenty accurate at 15 yards. I've since loaded up another 300 and am waiting for chance to go shoot 'em up. I'll report back.

[Wally]

Next spring I'll be using 3.5 grains of Bullseye with the Lee 102 RN bullet--this will be my can plinker load.

[jonk]

Not offhand, no, but I should chronograph it.

I won't be repeating it soon as I got 1000 jacketed bullets at a garage sale for 2 cents a bullet not long ago...

[JIMinPHX]

I'll assume that you are asking about 9 x 19 Luger caliber. I've used 3 grains of BE under a 105 grain SWC in a few compact Stars that belong to different people. They all functioned normally & were very comfortable to shoot. Accuracy was very good. I don't remember the velocity off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure it was over 1,000fps. It may have been closer to 1200, but my range record books aren't handy right now.

[fecmech]

I've used 2.5 BE and a 158 RN in the 9mm for 814 fps out of a Browning HP. IIRC that functioned with the stock spring. I also loaded 2.8 grs of BE and the Lee 121 TC which was accurate (about 2"@ 25 yds). That load chrono's at 860 fps. but it needed an 8 lb. spring in my Hipower to function( stock spring is 13 lb.). Hope this helps.

[lwknight]

The downside about lowering the rebound ( not recoil) spring is that you may not get enough rebound to go back into battery

[helg]

This can be calculated.

According to conservation of momentum principle:

m * v = ( Ms + Mb ) * V

where m and v are mass and muzzle speed of a bullet, Ms, Mb and V are masses of slide, barrel and their speed when bullet leaves the barrel.

Then, movement energy of a slide should be enough to push recoil spring, which gains spring energy. This is written with the statement

Ms * V ^2 / 2 > F * S / 2

where F is recoil spring strength, and S is a slide travel.

With the above two formulas, minimum muzzle speed to operate action should be

v > (Ms + Mb) / m * sqrt ( F * S / Ms)

In the formula masses are in kilograms, force - in Newtons, distance in meters, and muzzle speed in meters per second.

Taking a random gun from a safe gives the following measurements (YMMV at this point)

Ms = .32 kg
Mb = .14 kg
F = 16lbs = 16*4.45 N = 71.2 N
S = 1.2" = .03 m
m = 124 grains = 124 / 7000 * .454 kg = .008 kg

The above formula calculates the minimum muzzle speed as 150 mps or 492 fps. Hmmm, looks too small, but the above math seems to be correct. OK, the slide energy is not completely converted to the recoil spring energy, some is lost in slide-to-frame tension, and a brass-to chamber tension, which may be significant.

Then, a time for QuickLoad: how little of the Bullseye is needed to have such a small muzzle speed. 124 grains bullet loaded with OAL of 1.169" (max SAAMI) reaches 500fps with just 1.57 grains of the Bullseye. Looks pretty light charge, and losses due to tension and extraction will definitely add to this minimum charge. A few numbers for the light charge: 2 grains push to 617fps, 2.5 grains push the bullet to 745fps.

Anyway, the above is honest attempt to estimate the charge without shooting.

[lwknight]

OK, I'll go first. I'm a redneck not an engineer. I already know that it takes 4.0 grains bullseye to operate my pistol. I got that by loading 3.0 grains in 5 rounds since my loading block is 5X10 array. Then I loaded 3.1 grains in five more second row. and so on.

It is great practive to learn how to clear a SP and FTE effectively and quickly. Also bringing the gun down and clearing it then going back to the target over and over will make you a better shooter than just standing there popping rounds till the mag is empty.

Being a redneck can have benifits.

[awaveritt]

So. . . . . . . . . . . my 3.5 grains of BE should work, huh?

[lwknight]

Depends on your gun but, mostly, yes.

[d_striker]

This can be calculated.

According to conservation of momentum principle:

m * v = ( Ms + Mb ) * V

where m and v are mass and muzzle speed of a bullet, Ms, Mb and V are masses of slide, barrel and their speed when bullet leaves the barrel.

Then, movement energy of a slide should be enough to push recoil spring, which gains spring energy. This is written with the statement

Ms * V ^2 / 2 > F * S / 2

where F is recoil spring strength, and S is a slide travel.

With the above two formulas, minimum muzzle speed to operate action should be

v > (Ms + Mb) / m * sqrt ( F * S / Ms)

In the formula masses are in kilograms, force - in Newtons, distance in meters, and muzzle speed in meters per second.

Taking a random gun from a safe gives the following measurements (YMMV at this point)

Ms = .32 kg
Mb = .14 kg
F = 16lbs = 16*4.45 N = 71.2 N
S = 1.2" = .03 m
m = 124 grains = 124 / 7000 * .454 kg = .008 kg

The above formula calculates the minimum muzzle speed as 150 mps or 492 fps. Hmmm, looks too small, but the above math seems to be correct. OK, the slide energy is not completely converted to the recoil spring energy, some is lost in slide-to-frame tension, and a brass-to chamber tension, which may be significant.

Then, a time for QuickLoad: how little of the Bullseye is needed to have such a small muzzle speed. 124 grains bullet loaded with OAL of 1.169" (max SAAMI) reaches 500fps with just 1.57 grains of the Bullseye. Looks pretty light charge, and losses due to tension and extraction will definitely add to this minimum charge. A few numbers for the light charge: 2 grains push to 617fps, 2.5 grains push the bullet to 745fps.

Anyway, the above is honest attempt to estimate the charge without shooting.

Wow....Your work is not going unappreciated...

Think you can crunch that again in Quickload using 1.115 as the OAL?

[helg]

Wow....Your work is not going unappreciated...

Think you can crunch that again in Quickload using 1.115 as the OAL?

1.115" OAL, 124 grains lead bullet of .610" length (Lyman mold), 5" bbl. My previous calculations were for jacketed bullet.

1.5 grains - 496 fps, 4636 psi/13% of the SAAMI max
2 grains - 636 fps, 7437 psi/21%
2.5 grains - 768 fps, 11181 psi/32%
3 grains - 894 fps, 15965 psi/46%

4" bbl calculates muzzle speeds to about 6% smaller than the 5" in all of the above. Jacketed bullet adds less than a percent to the muzzle speed. OAL, adds about 1% per .01" (of the muzzle speed, the pressure raises more significant) shortening. Obviously, having bullet longer by .01" for the same bullet weight is the same to pressure and muzzle speed as having OAL shorter by the .01".

[EMC45]

I am running a Browning Hi Power MK3 with a 120gr. Lee TC bullet and 3.5gr. Bullseye and it feeds/functions/fires just fine and is quite accurate!!!

[d_striker]

1.115" OAL, 124 grains lead bullet of .610" length (Lyman mold), 5" bbl. My previous calculations were for jacketed bullet.

1.5 grains - 496 fps, 4636 psi/13% of the SAAMI max
2 grains - 636 fps, 7437 psi/21%
2.5 grains - 768 fps, 11181 psi/32%
3 grains - 894 fps, 15965 psi/46%

4" bbl calculates muzzle speeds to about 6% smaller than the 5" in all of the above. Jacketed bullet adds less than a percent to the muzzle speed. OAL, adds about 1% per .01" (of the muzzle speed, the pressure raises more significant) shortening. Obviously, having bullet longer by .01" for the same bullet weight is the same to pressure and muzzle speed as having OAL shorter by the .01".


Thanks...I just loaded up 100 rounds using 2.8 grains Bullseye. 2.8 is the lowest I can go using the Lee disks...Now I just have to wait for my reduced power springs to show up.

Here's a separate question...At which pressure do you start have to worrying about squibs in 9mm?

[d_striker]

I've used 2.5 BE and a 158 RN in the 9mm for 814 fps out of a Browning HP. IIRC that functioned with the stock spring. I also loaded 2.8 grs of BE and the Lee 121 TC which was accurate (about 2"@ 25 yds). That load chrono's at 860 fps. but it needed an 8 lb. spring in my Hipower to function( stock spring is 13 lb.). Hope this helps.

How low did your 2.8 grain load shoot low at 25 yards?

[helg]

You are saying a hundred? I start new load with no more than 20 rounds, not to be sorry of disassembling a big batch.


At which pressure do you start have to worrying about squibs? I was not trying to load that low. Anyway, let us see

QuickLoad suggests the following values for "shot start(initiation) pressure" - to overcome pull-out resistance and engrave into rifling:
lead handgun bullets: 1160 psi
jacketed handgun bullets: 2175 psi
With bullets seated to touch rifling add 7200 psi to the start pressure
Stronger crimp also adds to this. Crimp that holds by 100 lbs of the bullet pull-out strength in .124 sq in bore diameter requires 800 psi (100 / .0124) to overcome.

This is not maximum pressure in the barrel, like calculated above, this is the one that should be built up before bullet jumps into bore.

If the initiation pressure is too high, then bullet dies not leave the brass. QuickLoad calculates that the following initiation pressure does not let the bullet leave the shell.

1.5 grains - 3619 psi
2 grains - 5026 psi
2.5 grains - 6555 psi
2.8 grains - 7537 psi
3 grains - 8222 psi

You see from the above that under some circumstances, even 2.8 grains may not be enough even to start bullet movement.

[d_striker]

You are saying a hundred? I start new load with no more than 20 rounds, not to be sorry of disassembling a big batch.

I was not trying to load that low. Anyway, let us see

QuickLoad suggests the following values for "shot start(initiation) pressure" - to overcome pull-out resistance and engrave into rifling:
lead handgun bullets: 1160 psi
jacketed handgun bullets: 2175 psi
With bullets seated to touch rifling add 7200 psi to the start pressure
Stronger crimp also adds to this. Crimp that holds by 100 lbs of the bullet pull-out strength in .124 sq in bore diameter requires 800 psi (100 / .0124) to overcome.

This is not maximum pressure in the barrel, like calculated above, this is the one that should be built up before bullet jumps into bore.

If the initiation pressure is too high, then bullet dies not leave the brass. QuickLoad calculates that the following initiation pressure does not let the bullet leave the shell.

1.5 grains - 3619 psi
2 grains - 5026 psi
2.5 grains - 6555 psi
2.8 grains - 7537 psi
3 grains - 8222 psi

You see from the above that under some circumstances, even 2.8 grains may not be enough even to start bullet movement.

Thanks for the info..


Yes I said 100. I got a little overzealous. I figure, assuming the bullet will actually leave the barrel, I need at least 100 rounds to determine if a load will reliably function. But yeah, if they don't work, it's going to be a little bit of pulling.

[Windy City Kid]

d striker,

You said earlier you are shooting these out of a Springfield XDm-9.

2.8grs. of Bullseye will go down the barrel, they won't squib, but they won't cycle your XDm-9.

The factory recoil spring for the XDm-9 is 18lbs., Wolff makes 14lb. & 16lb reduced power recoil springs.

I would say the lowest you could go with a 124gr. boolit is 3.1grs. or 3.2grs. of Bullseye with a 14lb. reduced power recoil spring and cycle reliably.

Try 3.2grs. of bullseye with the 16lb. reduced power recoil spring first, you don't want to beat up your pistol. If it don't cycle with the 16lb. recoil spring then go to the 14lb. recoil spring.

WCK

[fecmech]

How low did your 2.8 grain load shoot low at 25 yards?

I don't remember but it was not that far off my normal sight setting on my BHP. My Hipower had adjustable sights and they never got moved more than a few clicks even between 147's and 121's. I got rid of all my 9's a couple years ago, the data I gave you is from my chrono notes. Sorry I can't be more specific.

PS.. Just reread my notes, stock Hipower spring is 17 lb. not 13 as I said before, but the 158 operated on both 17 lb. and 13 lb.as I said. The 121 with 2.8 BE needed the 8 lb. spring to operate. A 121 gr bullet at 800 fps does not have much recoil!

[d_striker]

d striker,

You said earlier you are shooting these out of a Springfield XDm-9.

2.8grs. of Bullseye will go down the barrel, they won't squib, but they won't cycle your XDm-9.

The factory recoil spring for the XDm-9 is 18lbs., Wolff makes 14lb. & 16lb reduced power recoil springs.

I would say the lowest you could go with a 124gr. boolit is 3.1grs. or 3.2grs. of Bullseye with a 14lb. reduced power recoil spring and cycle reliably.

Try 3.2grs. of bullseye with the 16lb. reduced power recoil spring first, you don't want to beat up your pistol. If it don't cycle with the 16lb. recoil spring then go to the 14lb. recoil spring.

WCK

Yeah it's an xdm 9. I just sold two of my other 9's so this is the Only 9 I have now. I've got a 14 and 16 lb spring on the way. Looks like I'll have some pulling to do. Or I could mix a couple in each mag with regular loads and practice some malfunction drills.

Thanks for the info. I'm going to go load some more.