Uberti 45-90 problems

[Lemi]

I am a new member to this forum and needing some assist. I bought a new Uberti High Wall in 45-90 which is driving me crazy. I cast a Lee 405 gr. boolit using wheelweights. I started using 16 gr. Trail Boss, I could not hit the broad side of a barn and keyholing. I next went 4759 starting at 32 grs. better with one keyhole in 20 rounds. I next went 34 grs. tighten a bit with no keyholing but accuracy 10 inch groups. For my next range trip later this week I have loaded 5 rds. with 35 gr. 4759. and 5 with 64 gr. of Jim Shockey's Gold. I am worried this gun is just not accurate. Any advise? Thank's in advance. P.S. I have ordered a Lee a 500 gr. Lee mold to see if that helps.

[HORNET]

Have you slugged the barrel to find out what the groove diameter is? What diameter are you sizing the boolits to? Are you getting leading? Are you seating to touch the rifling or short of it? How much short? Need more information to analyze problem. The keyholing suggests undersized boolits.

[Lemi]

I am sizing the Lee's 405 Gr. .458 Dia. I tried slugging the barrel but found it difficult measure, but might be .456 Dia. I don't believe leading is a problem.

[pdawg_shooter]

A .356 45-90?

[Lemi]

Sorry! I sized them to .458 Dia. Measured at .456 Dia.

[Pepe Ray]

Hi Lemi;
Just a POI here,
Whereas all of the above info is good stuff, you may have a different problem.
IF the maker followed the Winchester design, your boolets are too long/heavy.
The 45-90 was an express ctg. designed to shoot a 300 gr. boolet at higher velocity than the 45-70. So possibly the twist is too slow for your heavier boolets.?
Just something else to check on.
Pepe Ray

[mag44uk]

I have a Uberti 1885 "carbine" in 45-70. I use the Lyman postell which is nominally 535gn.
It shoots little groups at 200 yards and does particularly well with the wonderous black stuff.
I run the boolits through a 0.460 sizer and they just get loob on them as they cast at 0.459.
It also shoots very with a Lee 6 cav GB,a 420 grainer that drops at 0.461.
I have another Lyman mould,457xxx, and it will not shoot out of this gun as it is too undersize.It key holes a treat! Ask the butt markers about when I first used them at 200 yards!
They got showered with wood!
I would suggest you try a larger diameter boolit.
45-70 seems pretty forgiving in the powder department but definately not on boolity fit.
We will help you out best we can.
HTH
Tony

[Lemi]

I do appreciate all this advice and will try each of them as I go along thanks.

[mag44uk]

Do let us know how you get on. Your experience solving this problem will help others.
Good luck.
Tony

[montana_charlie]

Are you aware that your '64 grains' of Shockley's Gold is not to be weighed on a scale to reach 64 grains?
CM

[Lemi]

Yes! I marked the bullet base on the case and filled the powder to approx. 1/16" over that mark. I just weighted the powder to see where it came in at. Thanks!

[Buckshot]

............Lemi, first of all, welcome to the board.

I tried slugging the barrel but found it difficult measure, but might be .456 Dia.

What problem did you have? What OD boolit did you use? What are you using to measure the slug?

I don't believe leading is a problem.

Could be it isn't. DOES it lead? If it does then there is a problem somewhere even if you don't think so. SOMETHING is causing your problem and leading is an indicator of something not right. First place to look is the boolit OD/sizing. If you're not having any luck with cast, invest in a box of jacketed slugs and try 3-4 recommended moderate loads and she what she does.

Finally it could be the barrel. When you push a patch sloooooowly through the barrel does it just gliiiiiiiiiide on through?:-) I have a Uberti Hi-Wall in 38-55 and it cost me money, time, and just plain aggravation to get it taken care of. I bought it from Cimarron and will honestly say they took care of me, no excuses or whinning but I did have to pay shipping and insurance TWICE to 2 different places to the total tune of about $90 and the time.

My first barrel had about 5 distinct hitches in the barrel where you could feel it get tight, or rough and draggy. You could look down the barrel and not necessarily identify each bad spot, but you could for sure see places that didn't look like a nice new smooth barrel should look.

First place Cimarron had me send it was in Indiana. About 3 weeks later I get a call from the place in Indiana. He said he saw some "Wavyness" in the lands in some places, he could see a couple gouges in the barrel, and the crown was bad. I asked if he'd put a new barrel on it. He seemed surprised and said no he'd fixed the crown and said furhter that that would probably take care of it. Probably, I thought? I was a bit vexed after having spent close to $1200 for the thing to have it PROBABLY fixed.

I mentioned this and was told basically did I want eggs in my beer? These are after all aimed at the Cowboy Action shooters. Like that makes a *** rifle okay? Regardless, I'm NOT a Cowboy Action shooter and I didn't buy it expecting 4" groups at 50 yards. I got it back and it shot no better. I dithered around a couple months halfway accepting the fact I'd just have to pay to get a new barrel put on it. I then said screw that, as it's simply not right so I e-mailed Cimarron again.

They got right on it and ordered a new barrel and said they'd let me know when to ship the rifle.

On Oct 29th 2008 they said the barrel had been ordered.

On Dec 15th I sent: It's been 6 weeks. Any word?

Got no answer

On Jan 13th I sent: Close to another month gone by. Still no word from the factory or is the waiting list that long? Anyone have a clue?

No answer

On Jan 16th I sent: 2nd request

Got no answer

On Jan 21st I sent: 3rd request. If I'm wasting my time here, I sure wish someone would simply tell me so I could do something else to get this rifle's issues taken care of.

I got an answer, YAY! :-). It said: Rick - You are not wasting your time nor are you wasting mine. I have been in the factories face trying to get your barrel. We both are at their mercy. I do expect the barrel in short order. I am waiting on a response from them now.

I shipped the rifle upon their receipt of the barrel on:

SHIP DATE
Monday, February 9, 2009

EXPECTED DELIVERY DATE
Thursday, February 12, 2009 End of Day

I got the rifle back in April 2009.

I got the rifle back with a new barrel and it's a shooter! So from Dec 2007 until April 2009 I either didn't have it or might as well not had it as it's only usefull purpose was to prop a door open or as a really long paper weight.

I hope you do not have a bad barrel!

Also check: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=19451

...............Buckshot

[Trifocals]

There are a lot of suggestions in this thread as to what may be causing your rifle to shoot poorly. If it were mine I would:

1) carefully slug the barrel to ascertain tight or loose spots
2) do a chamber cast to determine what size bullets to use
3) determine the barrels twist rate (as mentioned, perhaps the twist is too slow for heavy bullets)
4) try a bullet in the 300gr - 350gr range

Try this load. It shoots fantastically well in .45-70's.

Lyman 457122 bullet (sized properly for your barrel, WW alloy), 27gr 4759 powder

LOL

[KCSO]

Measure the barrel at the Breech and at the MUZZLE. With all cut rifled barrels there is a back end and a front end. As you cut the grooves the cutter compresses slightly as it goes through and the breech is always larger than the muzzle as the blank is rifled. No what happens is that if the fellow who screws the barrel on to the gun isn't paying attention he threads the wrong end and your barrel is say 1 thou BIGGER at the muzzle than at the breech. Then you have a gun that shoots poorly with cast bullets.

Your problem sounds more like undersized bullet and I would try the bullet with out sizing it and see just how it shoots. The last Hi Wall Uberti I had in 45-90 had the same twist as the 45-70 and even if it were 1-18 to 1-22 it stil should group 405's. In theory a 1-18 would be best for a hevier slug and 1-22 for a lighter faster one but the military stuck with the 1-22 for the 500 grain bullets and had no problems.

[Lemi]

After reading all this good advice, I am coming to the conclusion you are right the barrel is over sized. I am going to load some without sizing the boolits. I am also going to try some 350 Gr. jacketed bullets. Thanks

[Buckshot]

After reading all this good advice, I am coming to the conclusion you are right the barrel is over sized.

You're guessing or assuming unless you slug it

I am going to load some without sizing the boolits.

What size are they? And what if THEY don't work?

I am also going to try some 350 Gr. jacketed bullets. Thanks

...............Buckshot

[Lemi]

I have made two attempts to slug the barrel of the 45-90, first time with a wheel weight boolit, 2nd, time with plumbers lead. I have miked them to the best of my efforts. It appears to me on both lead samples it looks like .455 to .456 dia. Asking the forum members does that sound normal? Thanks in advance!

[montana_charlie]

I have made two attempts to slug the barrel of the 45-90,

It appears to me on both lead samples it looks like .455 to .456 dia.!
Twice, you ave indicated some difficulty in getting an accurate measurement from your barrel slug.
When trying to measure a slug to learn the 'groove' diameter of the barrel, you just measure across the 'ridges' on the slug.

When you measure across the 'valleys' in the slug (which sometimes can be difficult to do) you get the 'bore diameter'.

When you get .455-.456 from your slug...are you measuring the ridges, or the valleys?

CM

[Lemi]

I believe across the ridges.

[montana_charlie]

I believe across the ridges.
You 'believe'...?

Perhaps it would be helpful if you tell us what kind of difficulty you are experiencing when trying to measure the slug.
Include number of rifling grooves, type of measuring instrument, and anything else that causes difficulty.

One we understand that, it should be easy to tell you how to get a number that you (and we) can trust.

CM

[Lemi]

six grooves, Dial Caliper.....

[bootsnthejeep]

http://www.meisterbullets.com/slugyourbarrelsdetails.asp

[montana_charlie]

six grooves, Dial Caliper.....
Ok, you have an even number of grooves and lands, so you don't need any 'special aids' to get a reading.

Hold your dial calipers fully closed with gentle pressure on the thumb wheel, and make sure the reading is exactly 'zero'. If it isn't, adjust the dial.

Bracket two opposing 'ridges' on your slug with the flat part of the caliper jaws.
Don't use the knife edges, as they can sink into the lead and give a false reading.
Hold the caliper closed on the slug using the same amount of gentle pressure on the wheel that you used when checking zero.

We can be sure the 'jaw' is reading above .4", so what is the reading from the dial?

Check all three pairs of 'ridges' and post the largest number.
CM

[Lemi]

Still .456 dia.

[montana_charlie]

It appears to me on both lead samples it looks like .455 to .456 dia. Asking the forum members does that sound normal? Thanks in advance!
We can be sure the 'jaw' is reading above .4", so what is the reading from the dial?
Still .456 dia.
If you still get .456 then it's .456...and it doesn't really matter whether that's normal, or not.
You are currently sizing to .458" and that should work pretty well.

I seriously doubt that using different powders will/will not cause keyholing, but go with whatever indications seem to tell you. I would be much more suspicious of the bullets, themselves...if they won't fly straight with moderate charges.

They are of a suitable length for your rifling twist rate, but they may have imperfections which unbalance them...making stable flight unlikely.
If you are casting your own, it might be a good idea to weigh them to see if you have unusually large variance...possibly indicating voids.

You said you have no leading in the bore, but it wouldn't hurt to check that again. It can certainly cause unstable flight.

And, my final suggestion is that you don't use 'heavy loads' unless you are sure your alloy is strong enough to handle the speed.

CM

[Lemi]

I appreciate all the advice. I thought about the boolit's being the problem. However, I shoot them in my three trapdoor rifle's with acceptable group's, about 3' to 4" average at 100 yds. I going to go back to excessive leading in barrel.

[docone31]

Ever thought of wrapping with paper?

[Lemi]

No! But an interesting thought. I will look into it. I have scrubbed the bore for the past hour with a wire brush and copped wrapped on an old brush dipped in Hoppes 9. It appears was still getting some lead residue on the patches. So, that might be the problem Thonking back I had tried some 45-70 boolit's in when I first got it. After reading on this site advising against it because of leading, I stopped doing it. Maybe I was not doing a proper cleaning. Montanna Charlie eluded to leading being a strong possibility. The paper wrapping or jacketed bullets might be the answer. Thanks for the advice.

[docone31]

It sure solved a lot of my woes.
MC is a wrapper for 45 cal. Does a good job also. He might have some sound advice.
Ectually, Iffen you come on over to paper patching, there might already be some threads started on what you are attempting.
If nothing else, paper does indeed get the lead out of the bore.

[Buckshot]

..............Lemi, paper patching has it's uses. They'll also mask or take care of some ill's a naked lead slug might have issues with, but in a nice new barrel you really shouldn't HAVE any issues. And you should only have to paper patch because you want to, not because you HAVE to. You'd said the groove was .456", and then confirmed again that it was indeed that, and I suppose .456" isn't wrong, it's just not that common nowadays in a 45 caliber rifle. If the bore is .450" then the grooves are still .003" deep, which is a thousandth less then is common but it should still get the boolit spinning.

If you have to shoot jacketed or paper patched lead in order to get any accuracy and avoid leading, you have something going on in that barrel that isn't quite up to snuff.

http://www.fototime.com/60E6988607F591E/standard.jpg

When I got my Uberti Hi-wall in 38-55 back with it's new barrel I swaged up and paper patched this ammo just for it. These 10 rounds made a hole that represented (as close as I can figure) a group of an inch to an inch and an eigth. The only thing is, it will also do that with 260gr Saeco's (flat nose plain based) over 20.0grs of SR4759. The old barrel leaded and pretty much delivered 4" groups at 50 yards.

...............Buckshot

[montana_charlie]

I have scrubbed the bore for the past hour with a wire brush and copped wrapped on an old brush dipped in Hoppes 9. It appears was still getting some lead residue on the patches.
What do you see that you are calling lead residue?

You are using a bronze brush with copper 'wool' wrapped on it to scrub the bore.
And, you are dipping in Hoppes #9.

Hoppes is real good at washing out smokeless powder residue, and it is able to dissolve copper fouling. While it's dissolving the copper in the bore brush and copper wool, where do you think that solution is being deposited?

When you run a clean patch through the bore, it comes out with 'something' on it.
You can be sure to have 'dissolved copper' (from the tools you are using to clean with), and that might look like 'lead residue' to some.

Describe what you see...and tell me what brand of cleaning rod you use.
CM

[Lemi]

The patch now is coming out white, prior was a grey ring around the end of the jag. I am using an enamed rod and using a brass bore guide.

[montana_charlie]

I asked what brand of rod you use to get an idea of how 'tough' it's built.
Forcing a very tight patch through the bore (soaked with Kroil or turpentine) is how I remove lead. It doesn't come as dark smudges on a patch. Rather, it is short strings and small speckles of shiny metal.

But it takes a rod that will stand some 'abuse'.

CM

[Lemi]

I am also using Pro-shot 1 step gun cleaner & lubricant. The cleaning rod is a Kleen Bore. During the cleaning I did notice a few specks of shinning metal I took to be lead.

[405]

Lemi,
Over the years I've had a few guns that were buggers like this. Eventually, most were "forced" to shoot right.... after a lot of brute persuasion (experimentation :)).

But The unstable bullets indicate something way out of kilter.

Looking back over the thread, I see at least one post suggesting trying shorter bullets.... like 300-350 grains. After thinking on it a bit and considering your bore may only have .003" groove depth and may be set up more for "Express-like" loading.... a different approach may be worth a go.

I'd try the RCBS 300 FN Gas Check bullet. With a soft alloy like BHN 11-12 it will likely drop a bullet closer to 325 grains. Use a fairly soft lube. Use a Lee push thru sizer for .457". Load to about 1200 and no faster than about 1350 fps. Seat the front drive band on the bullet to just touch the lands when chambered. Use no crimp or minimal crimp. Use a light charge of appropriate powder like 5744 to achieve the desired lower velocity.

[Lemi]

405, I like your idea, except when I tried very slow loads, it key holed often. I have some 350 gr. jacketed I am going to try at a moderate velocity. I have a 500 gr. Lee mold on order that I am going to try also at different velocities. The paper patching looks good, but difficult to do. I think bothering everyone with this minor problem. But I want to thank everyone for such good info.

[405]

If you get the same problem with the 500 grain bullet, wouldn't cost a great deal to try the other way with the shorter bullets. Bottom line, it sounds to me at least, like the loads you've tried along with the shallow groove depth may be causing the bullet to either strip some thus not taking full rotation to stabilize and/or the bore twist is slow and not spinning the bullet enough. Either way or a combo of the above seems the most likely culprit in causing the unstable bullet, like you described.

A much less likely cause may be found at the time the bullet exits the muzzle.... blown or flawed bullet base or bad muzzle crown. But those conditions usually lead to poor accuracy and not necessarily unstable bullet flight (yawing flight).

You mentioned that slowing the bullet way down also yielded unstable conditions. Again, to me at least, that indicates not enough rotation (spin) to the bullet. One other thing you might do is check the twist of your bore. Easy to do with a tight patch and small tape measure. If the twist is 1:22" or slower heavier (longer) bullets may not stabilize. If it is somewhere between 1:16" and 1:22" then that should be enough twist for the common bullet weights.... which leads to the other possibility of bullet stripping or not taking the full spin from the rifling. It can become a catch 22 in that faster and faster twists may strip bullets more easily. A harder bullet with a gas check can overcome some of that type of stripping. Trying the lighter jacketed bullet may shed some light on the issue.

[leftiye]

Lemi, what twist is your barrel? You can probably calculate the longest boolit that your barrel can stabilize from your twist, and velocity. If your barrel won't stabilize what it should theoretically, then there is probly a problem with groove depth, uniformity or some such.

[Lemi]

I tried a few 350 Gr. Jacketed bullets at 50 yds. in which the gun shot about a 2" group. I next tried some of my cast 405 Gr. with a relatively hot load, including a similar velocity using Jim Shockey's Gold imitation black powder. The group was about 5" with a fair amount of leading in the barrel. The results suggest that I am better off with jacketed bullets. For all the good advice, thanks!

[Buckshot]

I tried a few 350 Gr. Jacketed bullets at 50 yds. in which the gun shot about a 2" group. I next tried some of my cast 405 Gr. with a relatively hot load, including a similar velocity using Jim Shockey's Gold imitation black powder. The group was about 5" with a fair amount of leading in the barrel. The results suggest that I am better off with jacketed bullets. For all the good advice, thanks!

...............Sounds like you got yourself one of those world famous Uberti rifle barrels. If I were you (and I HAVE been there!) I'd contact the distributer that imported it (the place your gunshop bought it from) and and tell them you're very dissatisfied with the barrel. Believe you me you won't be the first with that complaint! I wouldn't simply roll over and let them pass off more junk. Of course if you're happy with it, then by all means enjoy it! :-)

..............Buckshot

[Lemi]

Went to the range to day with the 45-90 trying some Lee 500 Gr. boolit's using SR4759. Pretty much the same results, about a 5" group at 50 yds. with one bullet key holing. I think I am going to sell it and for get about it.

[Jon K]

Let me ask.........which end did you slug?

Slug the chamber end...just enough to drive in the length of the slug, then drive it back out, then measure. DO NOT DRIVE IT ALL THE WAY THRU THE BARREL...THE MUZZLE END IS SMALL!
I go along w/mag44uk to try .459, it is a more common size for the caliber, but try to size .001-.002 over the groove diameter.

You might also consider BP...try 78 gr Swiss 1.5 FG/.060 wad.

Jon

[405]

Have you checked the twist in your barrel yet? IT'S EASY TO DO!
If Uberti by some off chance used the old Winchester 45-90 specs (Express Rifle) for that cartridge having a 1:32 twist there is no way no how it will stabilize the heavier bullets..... no matter about anything else going on.

With the gun in a cradle of some sort.... use a jagged patch on a cleaning rod. Patch needs to be fairly snug in bore. From the muzzle end, insert the rod an inch or two. Mark the top center of the rod at the muzzle face with a dot from a visible colored marker of some sort. Use a tape measure or yardstick and place dots down the top center of the rod measuring from the muzzle..... put dots at the 14", 16", 18", 20", 22", 24", 26" points. Slowly push rod in and watch the dots circle around as the jag follows the rifling. The dot that comes back up to top center after one full turn is the twist of the bore/barrel. And for the really slow twist possibility.... the 14" or 16" inch marks stopping at bottom center position (1/2 turn) indicates a 28" twist or 32" twist respectively.

By knowing the twist rate of your barrel, you can either blame or eliminate "twist" as the culprit in not stabilizing the heavier bullets.

[Lemi]

I contacted Uberti 2 weeks ago in reference to the twist. They finally emailed me today and advised it was 1-20". Cleaning the rifle very carefully today I found a goodly amount of lead in the barrrel, makes me think the bore is oversized. Selling it seems like a good idea.

[405]

Yes, 20" twist should be OK for the bullet weights you're shooting. Too bad on the rest of the story. Could be a rough or otherwise poor bore. I remember following Buckshot's similar months long hassle. I guess some of the CAS crowd can live with so-so accuracy but no reason for that type gun to be made for only that purpose or to those minimum standards. You could probably work thru the issues and achieve decent accuracy with some work but doesn't seem right to have to do that with a modern gun. There have been some good posts in this thread about suggestions for bullet sizing/lubing/loads, etc. I guess there is still some uncertainty about what the bore and groove diameters really are? The post about slugging only the throat/leade area may help. I've found that using an over-sized, long tapered bullet works best for doing that.... about .460 + diameter. Good luck no matter which way you decide.

[Lemi]

Yes! it seem's odd in this day of computer programed machiney that we would have such poorly made barrels. The fact that this particuar rifle is a very handsome gun. The wood is beautiful, the case hardening is attractive, and to boot has a decent trigger. But, thanks again for your help.

[Buckshot]

Yes! it seem's odd in this day of computer programed machiney that we would have such poorly made barrels. The fact that this particuar rifle is a very handsome gun. The wood is beautiful, the case hardening is attractive, and to boot has a decent trigger. But, thanks again for your help.

..............As I said before, you need to get ahold of the distributer and get it taken care of. You didn't manufacture the thing so that part is not your problem. However you know the thing is a *** so who ya gonna sell it to? Sell it to someone you know? Probably be better to sell it to someone you DON'T know, as that way when you tell them what a tackdriver it is it won't come back to bite you.

That was the main reason I finally got ahold of Cimarron and told them they needed to make it right, and they did. There was no way I was going to stand there in front of someone or reply to someone's e-mail and tell them, "Oh yeah, this thing is VERY accurate. I'm only selling it because.........." --insert whatever BS it takes to get it sold.

I contacted Uberti 2 weeks ago in reference to the twist. They finally emailed me today and advised it was 1-20". Cleaning the rifle very carefully today I found a goodly amount of lead in the barrrel, makes me think the bore is oversized.

The twist is immaterial except to accuracy, and you've had leading issues which is not relevant to the twist, so you slugged it and said your bore (I assume you meant GROOVE) was .456". And now you also have confirmation form Uberti that your twist is 20". We can now forget the twist as it's fast enough. If your GROOVE is actually .456", what is the BORE (lands)? If it's .450" as normal, in a good barrel it should be accurate, and Hardly oversized. In fact, for a 45 caliber rifle it would be considered tight.

On the other hand, if your BORE was say .452" and your GROOVE was your quoted .456" you very well could have accuracy issues and leading, as those grooves would be pretty shallow. It wouldn't necessarily account for the rather poor showing with jacketed, but it could.

As I said in my previous post, you have one of those poorly made Uberti barrels. And again I will stress that you need to contact the distributer about it and have it made right. On the other hand if you're determined to send it down the line it would be incumbent upon you and the responsible thing to do to be truthfull about how it shot for you. Anything else would be a lie.

................Buckshot

[Jon K]

Sell??? You know it will be at a loss..............another alternative is maybe to reline the barrel. You can make it size and twist you desire.

Just an idea.......saves the time and frustrtion of waiting for Uberti to make it right, and less than the cost to rebarrel.

Jon

[Lemi]

Uberti through their distributor Stoeger declined to accept any responsibility to the poor performance of the 1885 Highwall 45-90. A local dealer fell in love with it and traded me a 1886 Browning Limited Edition in 45-70 for the Uberti and a poor condition Trapdoor Carbine. I am convinced the Browning will be far superior to the Uberti in accuracy and value. Again thanks to all of the site members who offered their assistance which was of great help.