Help me find the truth

[Jim]

2ndAmmendmentNut started a thread that really got me to thinking.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=68944
Like many people, I've heard it said many times that using handloads for self defense can create lots of problems if you're sued by the perp's surviving family and/or the state. So far, I know of only one individual that has made that claim.

I'm looking for solid documentation that this was brought up in court and pursued by the plaintiff's councel or the DA. If anyone knows of such a case, please post the reference so it can be studied. If anyone knows how or where to find any such documentation, again, please post any link that might help put this matter to rest.
Like many others, I'd like to really know what the law would have to say about this.

Thanks, fellas!

[HollandNut]

I have "always heard" this one as well .. However you know of one more "documented case" than I do ..

I also saw an article some years back saying that it isnt so ..

On the surface I could see an argument made as to you "building a homemade round for self defense" , that given to a jury that may not know squat about such things could be convincing to them ..

[Bret4207]

If you find anything verifying that claim, you'll be the first. The ONLY case I know of that comes close is a shooting in which a guy claimed his wife offed herself but he was charged with her murder. The loads in the gun were handloads and the powder burn pattern was completely different than the factory loads used in the test. Any lawyer worthy of his BMW should have been able to get the proper ammo itroduced or won an appeal based on the grounds that the ammo was different.

FWIW- I questioned Mr Ayoob on this and never did get an answer. I use and will continue to use handloads in all applications.

[Jim]

I found this. Consider the source.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2129976&postcount=140

[9.3X62AL]

Lotta new folks here, so I'll re-describe my career bit briefly--28 year LEO, of which a substantial part of the gig was spent as a "crimes against persons" detective. Area of work was inland southern California.

I investigated or assisted on several dozen homicide cases, several hundred firearms-aggravated assaults, to include citizen-involved and officer-involved defensive shootings and homicides. I was a rangemaster/trainer for uniformed personnel, detectives, SWAT teams, and citizen CCWs. I did expert testimony on firearms identification, ballistics, forensics, and usage.

Not once at any point of any investigation involving "firearms use of force" did the question of "factory load vs. handload" ever arise. Internally and administratively, my agency would confirm that issued and approved ammunition was carried and used by our personnel projecting firearms force--that's it.

The question never arose at a staffing by the District Attorney's Office. Never. The shooting's circumstances were either justified--or not. That is the extent of the criminal inquiry.

As for the civil side of things, it doesn't matter how righteous the shooting is--you'll get sued. Period. The Castle Doctrine doesn't apply in CA, 'cause too many lawyers feed at that trough and the CA Trial Lawyers' Assn. is MONDO powerful in our Legislature. Vicarious liability supports lots of sailboats. Anyway, the lawyers show up and start rooting for justice, and your homeowners' insurance carrier's lawyers throw between $5K and $15K at opposing counsel--which is nearly always accepted. The shot-up "victim" and/or his babymama, heirs, and assigns get new 22"'s for the roach coach--the lawyers get a couple Range Rover payments and declare "Justice served" (medium-well), and the game resets and waits for the next citizen or officer to start the music all over again.

My experience--"factory load vs. reload" don't matter a bit. That gunwriter mentioned in the other thread must work in a very different court environment than I did. Indeed, I wonder at times what color the sky is in his world.

ETA--While this is not being presented as The Truth, it has certainly been a truth in my area of the State of California. Unlike the gunhack, I make no recommendations either way. I carry factory rounds in my defensive firearms.

[NVcurmudgeon]

2ndAmmendmentNut started a thread that really got me to thinking.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=68944
Like many people, I've heard it said many times that using handloads for self defense can create lots of problems if you're sued by the perp's surviving family and/or the state. So far, I know of only one individual that has made that claim.

I'm looking for solid documentation that this was brought up in court and pursued by the plaintiff's councel or the DA. If anyone knows of such a case, please post the reference so it can be studied. If anyone knows how or where to find any such documentation, again, please post any link that might help put this matter to rest.
Like many others, I'd like to really know what the law would have to say about this.

Thanks, fellas!

Jim, dunno if anyone has ever been convicted of murder for using "devilish" handloads for self defense, but consider this:

In fifty years of handloading I have had a few misfires with my handloaded pistol ammo. I load handgun cartridges for economy and volume, and not as meticulously as I do rifle ammo. OTOH never has a reasonably fresh American factory pistol cartridge misfired in any of my handguns. I carry every day, "never leave home without it." Make mine premium factory loads, please.

[257 Shooter]

Al, Thanks for the info. In Texas we have the "Castle Doctrine" and it works. I used to carry Federal Hydro Shoks but after a couple failures in testing I carry boolits in my Springfield 1911 .45ACP. I have the new Mehec 200grn Cramer and cannot wait to test booits with the 5 sided pins.

[Jim]

Been doin' a lot of diggin'. Still can't find anything other than Ayoob's statements.

[Bret4207]

I found this. Consider the source.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2129976&postcount=140

Well, that makes it exactly one case in which the issue of a handload came up, the other one I already mentioned didn't really fit the issue.

So it looks to me like the last time it was an issue was in the 1970's in a police shooting. Not much of a concern IMO.

Funny, he wanted to send me his educational records when I questioned him about it. I wonder why he didn't refer to any of those cases then?

[HollandNut]

Seems like it was back inna mid to late 70's , I first recall MA speaking of it ..

Never cared much for him anyways , expert or not ..

Always remember what we used to say back in the day ...

An expert is somone who knows more and more about less and less until they know absolutely everything about nothing ..

[9.3X62AL]

Been doin' a lot of diggin'. Still can't find anything other than Ayoob's statements.

Which may be significant, in and of itself. There might not be any there there.

[HollandNut]

And if there are no cases what would be MA's line of thought other than supporting self defense ammunition from whomever other than yourself ??

[mooman76]

On another site I frequent there is a Lawyer that has been for a long time and a very proment and he researched it and says there has never been a documented case where someone was prosecuted for using handloads in self deffence. If you really think about it what basis could they use? You used poisoned bullets or something.

[theperfessor]

I used to only carry factory loads in my .38 and .44 snubbies, but several things changed my mind.

1. There is only one example that has ever been cited where handloads were an issue.

2. Most "high- performance" factory ammo won't shoot to poa in a fixed sight snubby.

3. I encountered a lot of really bad factory ammo from a well known American brand of .44 Special ammo. Bad enough that after the first five shots I paid close attention to the target I was shooting to make sure the bullets in the poof-not-bang loads actually cleared the barrel and made it 7 yards. I've NEVER loaded ammo that bad.

I now use the 358429 bullet and the 429421 bullet over the proper charge of powder to hit where I want with my sight picture.

P.S. I 100% inspect every round at every stage of the reloading process (I hand prime and use a single stage press, not a progressive). Does any factory do that?

[Bret4207]

And if there are no cases what would be MA's line of thought other than supporting self defense ammunition from whomever other than yourself ??

He may well have had the purist of intentions when he wrote that. His perception of the issue may have lead him to that belief. The problem is perception is often flawed. 99.9% of us will never, ever have to pull a gun on anyone much less shoot them. Since there's no way to say when or if that will ever happen then limiting myself to factory loads on the off chance I might have a deadly encounter reeks of lawyer inspired fear to me. In my case I simply don't have a single round of factory loaded 38 ammo other than 19 rounds of ancient Federal Nyclad I got at a yard sale. The other 30 bazillion rounds are all handloads. As it happens my speed strip has 5 rounds of the Nyclad in it currently, but the 5 loose rounds for the Bodyguard are 358477's over 5.0 Unique. Should I worry that on the off chance I get in a gun battle in my garage with a horde of MZB's that I should try and miss with the first 5 rounds and hit only with the Nyclad? Sorry, not gonna happen.

I enjoy Ayoobs writing and I'm sure he's a great guy. He just stepped on his tongue when he wrote that line. It needed a whole lot more explanation than it was given.

[pdawg_shooter]

I will stick with my handloads. I can get out of jail, not so sure about getting out of dead. My self defense ammo is loaded with the utmost care and am willing to stake my life on them.

[pmeisel]

I spend some time over at the highroad and read that whole thread in real time. I also used to read a lot of the gun mags, and Ayoob's position on factory vs. handloads is 20 years old that I know about. In all those years of reading I have seen a couple other examples cited, not that I remember the details anymore.

Somehow I think carrying properly assembled handloads is a lot less dangerous than running with scissors. Like Bret, I don't have but a partial box of factory ammo in the place, except for 22, and two boxes of 32 S&W (haven't shot enough of that to justify buying the dies).

Every board has it's own personality, and the high road has a lot of people who are interested in guns primarily for urban and suburban self defense as opposed to their many other uses (recreational bullseye shooting, plinking, practical outdoors tool, hunting, etc.) The posts over there reflect that bias -- quite a few folks who have not been in a gunfight and may never be in one but spend a lot of time thinking about it. Not knocking it, each to their own, but that's not me.

[DHORNE]

As a 20 yr career officer myself, I have never ran across any case that factory loads vs hand loads were made an issue. Having to use deadly force on someone creates more issues to be concearned with than this. If the need ever arrises I'm not going to care if I have factory or hand loads, would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six.

[mike in co]

Jim, dunno if anyone has ever been convicted of murder for using "devilish" handloads for self defense, but consider this:

In fifty years of handloading I have had a few misfires with my handloaded pistol ammo. I load handgun cartridges for economy and volume, and not as meticulously as I do rifle ammo. OTOH never has a reasonably fresh American factory pistol cartridge misfired in any of my handguns. I carry every day, "never leave home without it." Make mine premium factory loads, please.


consider that in my years of reloading, i have had factory..premium defense loads, MISFIRE.


there is two sides to every story. i have factory in some guns only because i have not fired it all up. most my guns have reloads....some are just copies of premium, some are cast.

mike in co

[KYCaster]

Jim, dunno if anyone has ever been convicted of murder for using "devilish" handloads for self defense, but consider this:

In fifty years of handloading I have had a few misfires with my handloaded pistol ammo. I load handgun cartridges for economy and volume, and not as meticulously as I do rifle ammo. OTOH never has a reasonably fresh American factory pistol cartridge misfired in any of my handguns. I carry every day, "never leave home without it." Make mine premium factory loads, please.


I've been an NROI certified range officer since 1984 and have worked at more IPSC and USPSA matches than I can remember. I have seen numerous unexplained failures with factory ammo and have seen two failures of factory ammo due to no flash hole in the brass.(one 223 and one 45ACP)

I know of one professional shooter who refuses to use factory ammo in competition. He claimes that he has found several primers that didn't have any priming compound in them. He also claims that a failure of factory ammo cost him first place at the Bianci Cup and the $25,000 first prize.

Jerry

[Bad Water Bill]

Bret Ask him to send a complete rundown of his employment since college. Bet he will not answer that either

[Bret4207]

I've come to the conclusion that there are lots more important things to deal with than a blurb in a magazine i disagree with. Ayoob, overall, is one of the better writers. He's feeding his family, he;s pro-gun and a staunch supporter of police officers and law and order. While I wish he;d stop trying to portray himself as a "street cop" (he's not) overall he's one of us.

[JIMinPHX]

In the Fish case, Harold Fish got raked over the coals for carrying a 10mm Kimber. The overzealous prosecutor made a big deal out of him having shot the thug with a super powerful cartridge. He made the stink about the choice of caliber, not the type of ammo. Fish was carrying factory 10mm loads as far as I know.

I sifted through the Lexus Nexus law service, when I had access to it, looking for a case where hand loads were an issue. I didn't find one. It's possible that the word "hand load", or the other search words that I chose simply were not used in some case that did make an issue out of it, but I couldn't find it. Then again, I'm not a lawyer & I don't have much experience with that system, so I may not have been the best person to be trolling through there.

[Jim]

Well, I'm satisfied with all I've seen on this thread and the other one. I think it's a non-issue.

[azrednek]

When I was serving as a juror on a Grand Jury. During a smoke break I asked one of the prosecutors about reloaded ammo in a justifiable homicide. He said if it is justified it would be a non issue as far as he was concerned. He did say though in a pre-meditated situation it could be a factor. He was unaware of any case that reloaded ammo was considered.

[stephen perry]

I work for the County of San Bernardino the real Wild West. Our Engineering building is next to Sheriff's. Amazes me when I see the incarcirated how meek and obliging they are. Some of us have a loud bark but little or no bite. My buds in Arizona and Texas think they are a man's man because they can go heeled. Some dress the part military fatigues bad haircuts hide behind sunglasses and attitudes that keep people away. Break them down to the essentials as Stallone said ain't so bad.

But we claim our rights as citizens as we should not Judge Roy Beans. I stay within the law in Public, at the Range, and in the field while hunting. I could whip most any Nut anywhere but why bother. I walk alone in peace and harmony knowing a superior being has planned my life.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :holysheep

[BruceB]

A couple of points:

1. I have a much higher regard for Ayoob than many posting here. After following his advice and techniques for decades now, I'm satisfied that he knows whereof he speaks. Whether or not he has endured a gunfight means nothing.

1a. What I read about Mas on various Internet boards (including this one) has a striking similarity to BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome) and PDS (Palin Derangement Syndrome), meaning that the authors don't want to either hear about, or acknowledge, REAL ACCOMPLISHMENTS by the subject of their scorn.

2. I'm going to carry what I have decided to carry, and I am neither going to change anyone else's mind, nor are they going to change mine.

That's the Truth as I see it.

[stephen perry]

BruceB
Since the Bush / Palin accomplishments were metioned could you list a couple for both. No dreaming.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :holysheep

[Rocky Raab]

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c170/RockyRaab/GIF/beatdeadhorse5.gif

This topic ALWAYS degenerates into chaos and leg whizzing. Inevitably, somebody will take a swing at Massad Ayoob. Somebody will make the "original" comment that it's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. Somebody will thump his chest and say nobody's gonna tell them what they can't do. Somebody will claim that no intelligent jury (!) would ever convict...

It never, EVER changes.

The bottom line is still this: do what you want, but don't cry "unfair" if YOU become the first to get convicted because of your ammo choice.

[HollandNut]

BruceB
Since the Bush / Palin accomplishments were metioned could you list a couple for both. No dreaming.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :holysheep

What Bruce is saying here in English is when someone disagrees with a political or public figure , ( or anyone else for that matter ) the person disagreeing is so blinded by their disagreement , that they refuse to believe or see anything good in the person that they are burning at the stake ..

I can give you lots of good for Bush and Palin , much more than his predesessor or his relief .. But as you say no political threads ...

[chris112]

Well, that makes it exactly one case in which the issue of a handload came up, the other one I already mentioned didn't really fit the issue.

So it looks to me like the last time it was an issue was in the 1970's in a police shooting. Not much of a concern IMO.

Funny, he wanted to send me his educational records when I questioned him about it. I wonder why he didn't refer to any of those cases then?

You might want to take another look at that posting. There are at least 3 cases mentioned in it. I didn't go all the way to the bottom.

[Bret4207]

Three cases, only one of which a handload was an issue in court. I did read the entire post, thx.

[cajun shooter]

In my time on the streets of Baton Rouge, La. we have several areas that we call war zones. I have seen that orange ball coming from the other direction. At each and every court case that I was involved with I never once heard What were you shooting factory or reloads? I did hear, Why did you shoot the suspect? or Why did you shoot at the suspect?I also heard and had to answer the following question. Why did you shoot so many times? My riding partner, Jimmy Matthews was killed while knocking on the door of a camp that a call for help had been received from. The suspect fired through the door with a 12ga shotgun taking out his heart. His family sued because we shot him over 30 times. No questions about reloads though. I think that if the time comes for you to use deadly force the fact that your gun contains reloads should be the lest of your worries.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
10 yrs. in law enforcement, dept. mandated factory fodder, never heard of a case where handloads were an issue in UT.,