reference to powder volume?

[bobke]

have all of the usual suspects in custody for powder burn rates-is there a reference out there anywhere with some format for comparing powder volume to a standard, burn rate and volume not always in concert with each other? playing with marlin 45-70 and would like to fill more of case without getting out of pretty conventional velocity range, 457122 and a 350gr flatpoint being in ample supply. have pretty good results with 4198, but have to use a filler and would prefer to stay at that velocity(about 1375 or so) and not use same, if able to maintain accuracy and consistency. volumetric chart being pretty handy in doing so. any assistance appreciated.
b

[rhead]

There are density tables in the Lee manual. If I understood your question you can calculate it from those.

[lwknight]

Some powders can fill the case and some that you had better not try to do that.
Thats why they make larger case capacities to get more umph instead of simply using more powder.

[fredj338]

Typically slower powder will need larger charge wts to achieve the xamwe vel. as faster powders. You can also go to one of the BP substitutes if you want a full case & not run higher vel. Although 1350fps is pretty anemic for a 350gr 45-70 load. I can almost get that in a heavy 45colt.

[HammerMTB]

There are density tables in the Lee manual. If I understood your question you can calculate it from those.

2nd that.
I use my Lee manual to determine case volume and CCs of powder. You get to where you can pretty well tell what will come just by looking at the #'s
But for large volumes of powder in rifle cases it is pretty easy to calc it as rhead said.

[bobke]

not worried about anemia with a 350gr bullet at 1350-1400fps. even at this lower power level, it'll shoot straight through any whitetail i'll see in texas, and most hogs, as well. i also shoot a 45colt with 300gr bullets at about 1000+ fps and it'll do the same. not worried about power, i can always get there with either, but that's not my choice at this point. my level of attainable accuracy is, and i've been away from shooting for over 10 years and i'm working on trigger control and repeatability, and for my program, i want to remove variables and work on my trigger and setup skills, not shoot a more powerful load and miss a target because of bad habits. kind of starting fresh, for the second time.

so back to original point, if making the grossly exaggerated comparison of trail boss and say, bullseye, both will get you to the same end, but trail boss fills more of the void/volume, with equal pressure and similar velocity, and may prove more consistent, with less position sensitivity, than bullseye, in large volume cases. i'm looking to do the same with the 45-70 and less concerned with velocity than accuracy. again, removing variables by getting more consistent load, and then shooting the hell out of it.

i'll for sure check the lee manual for same and appreciate the lead to same. want to stay with smokeless, and have lots of experience with revolver powders and their densities, just not up to speed at the lower end of rifle powder speed/volume questions. thinking out loud, maybe 5744/4759 or others, but they're not on my bench, so can't make the visual comparison. need the reference material, if for no other reason than to satisfy my curiosity.

[mooman76]

Lee has the only table that I know of but I am sure someone else has one somewhere. As a note though I find Lees table off abit. I'm figuring for a saftey factor sence the small hand laoders don't come with a scale. But they alwas seem to be under the weight amount. Not alot but by approximately 10%. They will still help get you ideas.

[wallenba]

Powder VMD chart courtesy of Lee. http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/VMD'S.pdf
Exponent on the left multiplied by grains = volume in cubic centimeters if I recall correctly.

[lwknight]

Loading without a scale is like driving without a speedometer. Oh, sure you can use the tachometer and calculate your gear ratio and tire size. Whats the difference?
Scales do not cost ALL THAT much.

[mpmarty]

Back in the "good old days" I had a converted 450/500 Martini single shot in 45/70 and used H 4831 for nearly everything as I'd bought a one hundred pound keg of the stuff. A case full with a wax wad over the mouth behind a cast 500gr boolit that was seated into the rifling gave great accuracy and no pressure problems at all. Wish I still had some of that keg today.

[fredj338]

i'll for sure check the lee manual for same and appreciate the lead to same. want to stay with smokeless, and have lots of experience with revolver powders and their densities, just not up to speed at the lower end of rifle powder speed/volume questions. thinking out loud, maybe 5744/4759 or others, but they're not on my bench, so can't make the visual comparison. need the reference material, if for no other reason than to satisfy my curiosity.
Again, slower powders will require larger charges to achieve sim. vel. so a full case of a slower powder would be better IMO, than trying to find a bulky fast burner using the Lee tables. SOmething in the burn range of Varget or IMR4320 or a bit slower will use a good size charge for 1400fps.

[bobke]

fred/others-
that's the concept i'm after. i had regularly used a poly shotgun buffer for a filler but in having everything packed up for 10 years, it's been lost in the shuffle and haven't been able to spot any locally, even at some big gun shops. may just have to order some, and have used what i could find around the house, including dryer lint and used up softener sheets, as they seem to fill the gap, the sheets are some form of poly something and they've done a fair job... and leave a 'mountain fresh' scent behind! but they're kind of a pita, and i want to experiment with the fuller case of slower powder and see if i can make it work.

for the record, i wouldn't load a single rifle round without having precisely scale weighed it, but do admit to using a lee scoop for the poly buffer when i did it in the past. looking for the volumetric reference just to see how powders of different burn rates may fill up a case of known capacity-but any/all to be weighed prior to loading, of course.

[lwknight]

bobke, you are on the right track to consider more volume of slower powders. I get more consistant shots with more forgiving powders.
One by-product of slow powder is the impressive ground shaking BOOOM that you get and also a cool muzzle flash an low light.

[fredj338]

I have to admit to not using any fillers w/ any of the loads designed for the trapdoor springfield. they shoot fine, even w/ powder rattling around abit. I have used pistol powders & 300gr LFP w/ a tuft of pillow tufting as an over powder wad. Works great for 900-1000fps loads, accurate to 100yds. I still think loading a slower powder like H4350 or sim burn rate will fill the case pretty well & give you low vel/low pressure loads.

[rickster]

SR4759 is probably your best bet. 26gr gives about 65% fill and 1375fps @12ksi. Take those numbers with a grain of salt. They were estimated using Quickload and my own values for 4759 (since QL doesnt have values for 4759).

[bobke]

thanks. going to have to pick up 4759, some 3031, varget for starters and see how it goes, initially. also stopped into walmart and got some 100% polyester pillow stuffing-for $3, it oughta outlast my tolerance for using it. will this work for a filler or does it have to be dacron? limited in choices locally, san antone or corpus nearest options.

i'm going to try to use the slower powders at first and hope for a result, can always go back to the filler for daily shooter w/457122 if it doesn't play. is there a possibility of a residue from polyester or is this a non issue? are black powder wads viable? all fodder for the cannon, so to speak-this gives me some work to do in coming weeks. we live for projects, right?

[Ricochet]

That Wal-Mart polyester stuffing is what I use when I use a filler.

[fredj338]

Lyman says 48gr of Varget will go 1379fps w/ a 330grHP As opposed to 26gr of 4759. Again, slower powders will fill more of the case for a given vel.

[bobke]

thx, fred. varget's on the top of my list, having read of very good results in other calibers, mostly with jacketed bullets, but results nonetheless. haven't had any other long guns to work with it in, so have never burnt a grain of it. but have also just picked up a contender frame for a long stored ssk 7mm jdj no.2 barrel that i might find use for varget in. gotta get that project on the ground, as well. appreciate your input.

[Jumping Frog]

For 45-70 Govt loads, Lee lists in descending order:


340 gr lead - Accurate 3100 (4.04 cc), 4350 (3.93 cc), and 2495 (3.84 cc)
378 gr lead - Accurate 3100 (3.77 cc), 8700 (3.72 cc), and 4350 (3.60 cc)

It also lists 4.06 cc as the usable case capacity, so these loads fill 90%+ of the case.

It has different loads for more modern rifles like the Model 95, bolt action, or Ruger single shot, but those loads are 1800-2100 fps range.