Adventures with a used 1860 Army

[zardoz]

Today was my first purchase of a cap and ball revolver. Now I've got a couple of smoke poles in the collection here, both percussion type 50 cals, so the black is something I have a little experience with.

It is a Pietta 1860 Army Colt. I really wanted a 3rd model Dragoon, but this one leaped at me from the showcase, and you know how it goes......followed me home.

So, I get it home, and want to get it apart to check it out, and see if everything is copacetic. Easier said than done. I cannot get the wedge pin out. I ended up taking the little screw on the left side of the gun out, and then cannot get it back in. The leaf spring is in the way.

Long story made short, the previous owner had put the wedge pin in BACKWARDS. I only discovered this by examining high resolution photos of the gun from websites. The English translation of the Pietta manual left a lot to be desired and confused me totally.

It was jammed in backwards, so I had to get serious. I found that a WW lead ingot put on the wedge pin face, hit with serious dead blow hammer licks finally got the thing out. I had an array of wood blocks covered in towels to support the rest of the gun. I need to invest in some good brass drifts, but in this case, the lead ingot did not mar or mushroom the wedge pin face, and eventually budged it to where I could get the thing out. Then the gun came apart easily.

So now I could put the screw back in the hole, and with the wedge pin in properly, it now disassembles like it should, and fits together and operates properly.

Hopefully tomorrow, I can actually SHOOT the thing.

Where do these people come from??? :mad:

[Razor]

......from cousins marry'n up wiff cousins ???

Yore gonna love it ...25~30 gr fffg with REM caps = FUN :redneck:

[Gerry N.]

......from cousins marry'n up wiff cousins ???

Yore gonna love it ...25~30 gr fffg with REM caps = FUN :redneck:

Sometimes, looking at guns some drooling mouth breathers have out for sale, I'm tempted to ask, "If your parents got divorced, would they still be brother and sister?"

Gerry N.

[zardoz]

It has been raining around here most of the day, but it finally lightened up enough to go out. I was just itching something fierce to try the Army Colt out.

Since this BP revolver stuff is new to me, I spent a bit of time reading up from various sources. I did not have any FFFG black, only FFG. I did have two pounds of Pyrodex RS, and decided to give that a go for the first time.

Measured out 20 grains Pyrodex carefully on the scale for each cylinder, not having any knowledge of what the thing is supposed to look like. I did note the Pietta manual said no more than 15 grains, but I figured that was for legal sake for brass frame guns. Mine is the steel frame one, and figured 20 grains would be a great start load to see how things shook out.

Had some manufactured Traditions balls that indicated .451 diameter on the box, but they all shaved a nice little thin ring at loading, so that seemed to be OK. I had also put some pre-made patches over the powder charges. Everything seemed OK. I waited until I got to the range before putting on caps. Those were some Remington no. 11, and I was very worried about fit and chain fire. The caps fit perfectly, and after three inspections, I was finally ready to go.

I had forgotten the black ignition sensation. A very pleasant thump...WHUMP! Not like the smokeless cartridge at all. Plus!......the big cloud of smoke. Everything was perfect, and the first three shots were way off, but the final three were in a 2 inch circle at 15 yards. Amazing. Shoots a little high and to the right. But thats OK, I was just happy to have the thing work like I wanted.

Back in the house, and all apart for cleaning. This time that wedge pin came out with just a few light taps of the plastic mallet.

Life is good......

[lathesmith]

zar, I think the 1860 Army is one of the best-handling firearms ever made. Of course, I admit, I am a revolver fan, I love wood and steel, and I just don't seem to have much use for black plastic...
These Uberti's are great guns, mine has very nice fit and finish, and is beautifully blued and color case-hardened. I finally went all the way with mine. I fitted it with a Kirst Cylinder conversion, and made a spring-loaded ejector set-up out in the shop. I know, I know, the '58's are better, the Colt's can't handle 44 mag pressures like a Ruger can, they're too expensive, ...blah blah blah. Whatever...Like I said, I just love these old Colts and their repros, they are a heckuva nostalgia trip for me, and they have a secure place in history, which I like to revive every once in a while. So enjoy that smoker, it's a great piece!

lathesmith

[StarMetal]

zar, I think the 1860 Army is one of the best-handling firearms ever made. Of course, I admit, I am a revolver fan, I love wood and steel, and I just don't seem to have much use for black plastic...
These Uberti's are great guns, mine has very nice fit and finish, and is beautifully blued and color case-hardened. I finally went all the way with mine. I fitted it with a Kirst Cylinder conversion, and made a spring-loaded ejector set-up out in the shop. I know, I know, the '58's are better, the Colt's can't handle 44 mag pressures like a Ruger can, they're too expensive, ...blah blah blah. Whatever...Like I said, I just love these old Colts and their repros, they are a heckuva nostalgia trip for me, and they have a secure place in history, which I like to revive every once in a while. So enjoy that smoker, it's a great piece!

lathesmith

I think the 1860 Colt is most handsome revolver ever made. Classic lines.

Joe

[northmn]

I have an 1860 Army I like very well. I put a higher front sight on mine so it would shoot to point of aim. Liked to shoot a full cylinder, meaning that when I loaded the ball was flush with the end of the cylinder. When I shot competition we had a variation of the bowling pin shoots where we put four blocks of wood on a platform and timed how fast they could be knocked off. Won a couple with it. Most fun came when I beat a real good pistol shot that made his own singleshots. He used a 6 o'clock hold and they put up a buffalo novelty target. I more or less patterned all over the scoring ring like I usually do. He had a pretty nice tight group at the top with two no scores. Of course I did not say anything about using an Italian made revolver against his very nice custom pistols that would sell for many times the price. His pistols no longer were sighted in for 6 O'clock after that.

Northmn

[leadeye]

1860s balance and point better for me than any revolver so it's been a long series of experiments to make a blackhawk feel like one.

[crazy mark]

ZARDOZ,
Word of caution. Get a volume measure for BP/Pyrodex. It's measured by volume and not by weight. Check your 20 grs weighed by 20 grs volume and you will see a difference. Mark

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

nice pistols, but I fell in love with the squareback 1851 Navy Colt the first time I saw one. The gripframe worked well enough to make it to the SAA minus the squareback feature.

Rich

[StarMetal]

Another classy looking Colt is the 1860 with fluted cylinder and the 1862 Colts.

Joe

[Geraldo]

Another classy looking Colt is the 1860 with fluted cylinder and the 1862 Colts.

Joe

They certainly are, but you left out the 1861 Navy. The 1860 Army, 1861 Navy, and the 1862s have the best looks of any cap and ball revolvers IMO.

I had a repro fluted cylinder '61, which I couldn't shoot worth beans and needed serious cleaning after twelve rounds, but dang did it look good :D I'm waiting on my not so good looking ROA to arrive so I can start over with BP revolvers.

[StarMetal]

They certainly are, but you left out the 1861 Navy. The 1860 Army, 1861 Navy, and the 1862s have the best looks of any cap and ball revolvers IMO.

I had a repro fluted cylinder '61, which I couldn't shoot worth beans and needed serious cleaning after twelve rounds, but dang did it look good :D I'm waiting on my not so good looking ROA to arrive so I can start over with BP revolvers.

Yes sorry, I meant to put that 1861 in there too.

Joe

[zardoz]

ZARDOZ,
Word of caution. Get a volume measure for BP/Pyrodex. It's measured by volume and not by weight. Check your 20 grs weighed by 20 grs volume and you will see a difference. Mark

Yes, I figured this out. I do have a couple of volumetric measures. Per TC, 52 grains Pyrodex has the same volume as 70 grains BP. Thus a correction factor would be to multiply weight of Pyrodex by 1.346 to get BP equivalent (or so they say.). A 20 grain by weight charge of Pyrodex, would then supposedly yield the same energy as almost 27 grains of BP. Is there really that much more energy available in Pyrodex as opposed to BP per given weight unit? Or is it burn rate, and time to peak pressure?

BTW, on my TC volumetric measure, I had to set it at almost 30 grains to get close to 20 grains by weight of Pyrodex.

In all of this, I am curious about true peak pressures of equivalent weights of BP versus Pyrodex, all other factors being the same. Surely someone here has the low down on this subject.

[lathesmith]

zar, from what I understand, Pyrodex and BP have very similar pressure curves, with Pyro perhaps having a small (10-20%) higher peak. This small difference should have no practical effect in real-world shooting, as your safety margin should(better be!) far higher than this.

I have seen all the old corrosive arguments, BP vs. Pyro, and to me this is just a "less filling vs. tastes great" dead end, bottom line is you better clean your piece pronto after using either one. However, as you noted, Pyro requires a lighter WEIGHT to achieve the same ballistic performance, and because of this, fouling volume is noticeably less for me than BP.

lathesmith

[crazy mark]

Zar,
If you look at the size of the grs of Pyro Vs BP you will see the Pyro is bulkier. I played around with measured 80 grs by weight VS 80 grs by volume and there is a big difference. Pyro in my testing seems to age better than BP. I have ran some loads over my Crono and checked the results. The Pyro was only 20-30 FPS slower and the BP of the same age was 50-60 FPS slower. Not to say everybody will have the same results. The powder had aged 5 years. Of course my testing was done using a 50 cal rifle and not a pistol. I also can fire 20-30 shots with Pyro with no barrel fouling where 10 shots with BP will cause some fouling. Mark

[Dframe]

I've had my best luck with real black powder. 20-25 grains 2F or 3F) with RB and T/C bore butter over the top. Shoots great, easy to clean.............love it.

[StrawHat]

My favorite 1860

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/1860Snubbieyetagain003.jpg

[zardoz]

I never saw an 1860 snubby before! Pretty good there Strawhat.

Went looking for some FFFG black this past week, and apparently this stuff is considered more dangerous than plutonium or something around here anymore. I did find something interesting, that I tried out. They were Pyrodex P preformed pellets for a 44 caliber. Indicated 30 grain volumetric equivalent.

I weighed the pellets, and they average around 24 grains each. A little stouter than my first loading of Pyrodex. I noted the pellets had a hollow core to them. This reminded me of the hollow core in solid propellant rocket cores. Even the space shuttle has a hollow core in its solid boosters to expose more fuel surface to the flame front. I wondered what effect that would have.

The loading was quick and easy with those pellets. Just drop one in, put a wad over, and then ram the ball. When I got out to the range, the ignition was quite noticably faster. Almost as fast as smokeless cartridges. I figure that hollow core was the feature that allowed that.

I had my shots far better centered this time, but still went high. I read where the gun is sighted in at around 75 yards or so, so figured that was the reason why. The group was quite tight this time, as opposed to the first time.

This time for clean-up, I took the whole thing apart, and dumped all the metal into a sink full of hot water and soap. There was gunk that came out, that I bet had been in there for ages. After a compressed air dry, oiling, and assembly, the gun feels a whole lot smoother and precise.

Got to thinking, you never see the hero in western movies taking the 1860 completely apart for full cleaning. The most you ever see is them wiping them off with a rag or something. Doesn't make for great entertainment I suppose. :p

[StrawHat]

I never saw an 1860 snubby before! Pretty good there Strawhat.



Thnak you.

I first saw the snubbie 1860 in some movie with Chuck Heston, he played Brigham Young. At that time nobody made one so I took one of my 1860s and a hacksaw. You can see the results. I put the big front sight on and have since filed it down to impact at 25 yards. The frips are elk stag with the bark removed.

I hear that one of the Italians is making something similar.

[freedom475]

I have gone to using .457's in all my C&B's.. It is lot more assurance that the ball/cylinder is sealed, even if the spur gets rotated to the side a little. The bigger ball also gives more sureface area to the rifleing.

Pyro "P" will give me a littel more velocity in my Rem58. ...

My chrono results from the Rem 58 with the .457 all weights were Volume from a little brass measure. I believe it was set at 30 for these tests but it may have been just over @ 35?? (But loads were all the same volume amount in anycase)

30gr. Graphs 3ff = 750fps

30gr. Graphs 4ff= 925fps .......This load is great and fires fast (locktime).. I have killed several Whitetails with this load and the balls shoot clear through there ribs and out the other side.

30gr. Pyro "P"= 1000fps

Pyro will compress a looong ways..

A full chamber of Pyro with the .457 compressed down on it still pushed the ball down past the cylinder face quite a ways and yeilded a velocity of 1220fps... Only did this once and 6 rounds put a pretty good mark in the basepin:shock:

Of all my expensive pistols this is the one I usually shoot and carry.

http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae243/7xleather/DSCN0391-1.jpg

[Smiling Bob Masterson]

StrawHat,

Sent you a PM.

Smiling Bob Masterson

[1874Sharps]

Freedom475,

That is a fine deer you got with that there pistol! I am wondering a bit about that load of 30 grains of 4fg. Is that a typo? All the literature says to only use 4fffg as a flashpan primer, as dangerous pressures will result if used as if it were 3fg.

[Willbird]

I have done all my shooting with a ruger old army, and I consider a maximum load to be the most ffffg as I can fit into there and still rotate the cylinder.

I read a test where the author used jacketed bullets in several cap and ball revolvers....he had to hone the cyl on a few brands but ruger was not that required rework....anyway in that gun pyrodex gave less velocity than 4f.

Bill

[freedom475]

Freedom475,

That is a fine deer you got with that there pistol! I am wondering a bit about that load of 30 grains of 4fg. Is that a typo? All the literature says to only use 4fffg as a flashpan primer, as dangerous pressures will result if used as if it were 3fg.

Thank you!

Yeah, I use the 4f... I know the info available says not to. I have been doing it for so long in my c&b's that I wounder if it is another lawyer thing...My Pietta manual that came with it also says to use 15gr. of 3ff as my load:!: Most folks say "Do as your manufacture recommends"... I think this is silly as with 15gr. my rammer won't even get the ball to the powder. We all know that short loading a BP rifle can cause a ruptured barrel. And even the old 1800's Rems were (and still are) shot with 30gr 3ff

I am sure pressure is higher, it fires very fast compared to 3ff (yes it does "Crack" instead of the "Phooom") Pyro seems to hang like a flinlock after shooting the 4f. :lol:

I am sure some of my faster velocity is from the fact that I am putting quite a bit more of the 4f in as I use a volume measure and have not weighed the charge.

I have a some big hand cannons that I shoot if I want Power..so that is not what I am trying to do with my Rem. I just like the way it fires faster and the load is about perfect for hunting...I just couldn't get that with the 3f..750fps was just to slow. Pyrodex was not near as accurate, a lot more violent to shoot and the lock time was horrible.

Merry Christmas all!!

[northmn]

The old Lyman catalog lists velocities for 4f in revolvers. Their velocities were not any improvement over 3f. In 36 the 4f gave amax of 1090 and the 3f a max of 1097 and in a 44 the max for 3f was 1062 and for 4f 960. The 4f was slower in both. Interesting your results were different. You should not be able to overload a revolver with black powder as the chamber will not hold enough. A few of the old Walkers blew, which is why the Dragoons were made with less capacity. I doubt if the new Walkers would blow as they have better steel. An 1860 army or Remington should be able to hold enough powder so that the ball will barely clear the barrel when the cylinder is turned. I always loaded them in that fashion as that is what they were designed for. I agree that pyrodex does not work that well, nor did 777 in mine.

Northmn

[1874Sharps]

Gentlemen,

I'll be. I learned something new. You are all certainly right about the superiority of modern steels compared to 19th century steels! The Walker could sure hold alot of powder and I can see how that would be mighty hard on an original. In fact, my CAS shooting buddy had a non-catastrophic failure of his brass framed spaghetti (that is what I call my Italian repros) Walker. After shooting a substantial number of loads, the wedge pin deformed and the cylinder pin stretched.

For a while I was shooting an original Rem New Model from mid 1865 and a Starr Model 1863 (made in 1864) in CAS matches. That is, until the Rem malfunctioned after a part broke in the middle of a match. The gunsmith found some original parts and I ought to get it back soon. I am truly enamored with the Starr. Its accuracy rivals a modern pistol's accuracy and I think its innovative design was the best of the era. It had a pivot in the front of the cylinder and a generous rear bearing surface and so there is never any binding from fouling of a cylinder pin that happens with Colts and Rems after repeated firing. Also, a cylinder can be swapped out quickly by removing the knurled frame pin on the right side by the hammer and then tipping the barrel and top frame down. How slick is that?!!! Below is a photo of the old Starr, which has become one of my very favorite shooters.

[Mk42gunner]

I didn't realize that Starr's had a hinged frame. Learn something new everyday.

Going in another direction, I like the looks of the little rammerless Colts, like Uberti's 1849 Wells Fargo; they are a pain to load though.


Robert

[northmn]

I didn't realize that Starr's had a hinged frame. Learn something new everyday.

Going in another direction, I like the looks of the little rammerless Colts, like Uberti's 1849 Wells Fargo; they are a pain to load though.


Robert

Before you buy a 32 revolver look at the ballistics. They are about as powerful as a 25 pocket auto. They benefit from 4f a little. Surprisingly they were one of Colts most popular pistols, although rumor had it that a heavy leather coat would stop the ball. The 36 Navy was a tremendously popular pistol with the power of about a 380 auto. That being said I did take a forkhorn buck with one at very close range. I shot it head on between the shoulders and the ball went to the back of the rib cage. It was a b___h to track as it did not leave much of a blood trail but it only went about 75 yards. The grooves in the Colts cylinder pin were said to alleviate binding of the cylinder due to fouling better than the Remington. The Remington is still a very nice pistol, I just like the aesthetics of the Colt. You can get up to 35 grains 3f or better in a Colt or Remington if you just grease the front of the cylinder and do not use wads. Pyrodex is about 80% weight to volume of BP. 30 grains of Pyrodex is supposed to be equivalent to about 38 grains of BP. They recommend that you load it by volume not by weight. When I loaded 777 or pyrodex by volume I would take a measure and find the right volume for BP and then use that for the phoney powders. Powder measures marked for BP vary according to lots, granulations and inaccuracy. Its best to see how they do on a scale. I use the 454 ball for my pistols. After seeing the picture I am getting kind of an itch for a Remington again. Seems all of them benefit if you can raise the front sight to get them to shoot on as they were fighting guns. Aim at the belt buckle and you get a hit out to a pretty good range, same as with a rifled musket.

Northmn

[Mk42gunner]

Before you buy a 32 revolver look at the ballistics. They are about as powerful as a 25 pocket auto. They benefit from 4f a little. Surprisingly they were one of Colts most popular pistols, although rumor had it that a heavy leather coat would stop the ball. The 36 Navy was a tremendously popular pistol with the power of about a 380 auto. That being said I did take a forkhorn buck with one at very close range. I shot it head on between the shoulders and the ball went to the back of the rib cage. It was a b___h to track as it did not leave much of a blood trail but it only went about 75 yards. The grooves in the Colts cylinder pin were said to alleviate binding of the cylinder due to fouling better than the Remington. The Remington is still a very nice pistol, I just like the aesthetics of the Colt. You can get up to 35 grains 3f or better in a Colt or Remington if you just grease the front of the cylinder and do not use wads. Pyrodex is about 80% weight to volume of BP. 30 grains of Pyrodex is supposed to be equivalent to about 38 grains of BP. They recommend that you load it by volume not by weight. When I loaded 777 or pyrodex by volume I would take a measure and find the right volume for BP and then use that for the phoney powders. Powder measures marked for BP vary according to lots, granulations and inaccuracy. Its best to see how they do on a scale. I use the 454 ball for my pistols. After seeing the picture I am getting kind of an itch for a Remington again. Seems all of them benefit if you can raise the front sight to get them to shoot on as they were fighting guns. Aim at the belt buckle and you get a hit out to a pretty good range, same as with a rifled musket.

Northmn

The little 31's don't have a lot of power, but since I only plink with mine occasionally, the power doesn't bother me. Colt actually made 28 cal in the Root sidehammer models, and I think in the Patterson, also.

I can think of a few reasons why the small revolvers sold so well:

1. Who wants to get shot with anything?
2. They were small enough to fit in a pocket, especailly with a 4" or shorter barrel.
3. No antibiotics, a hit with anything could kill you.
4. Being smaller, were they cheaper than the .36's and .44's?

After Rollin White's patent expired, Colt made several models of small revolvers; even though the movies would have you think they only made SAA's from the Civil War onward.


Robert

[looseprojectile]

StrawHat;
Nice looking gun. You been looking at some James Triggs paintings? Good photo.
Back when they were way cheaper I did some altering of guns and came up with some interesting pieces. "Back when", I sawed of an 1849 pocket model colt and made a loading press from the rammer. If Colt didn't make them that way he should have.
http://www.philsp.com/data/images/a/argosy_195609.jpg

Life is good

[StrawHat]

StrawHat;
Nice looking gun. You been looking at some James Triggs paintings? Good photo.
Back when they were way cheaper I did some altering of guns and came up with some interesting pieces. "Back when", I sawed of an 1849 pocket model colt and made a loading press from the rammer. If Colt didn't make them that way he should have.

Life is good

Thank you

Not familar with Trigg? I take it he was a western artist.

I just lay my props down on a piece of firewood and take the photo. Sometimes I use a piece of my fence or even the siding on the garage, although I might fib and say it is on the outhouse. sunlight is good enough for me. I like the photos guys do with light boxes and such just never took the time to try that way.

[looseprojectile]

Triggs used to paint guns and accoutrements as though you could pick them up from the paper. Did magazine covers on gun magazines, catalogs and such. I think he used the fool the eye technique. He could paint your gun and make it look more real than the real thing. James triggs, Artist.

Life is good

[jhrosier]

....
I hear that one of the Italians is making something similar.

I bumped into this somewhere on the net.
It is a Pietta, apparently discontinued:

http://images51.fotki.com/v1584/photos/5/590147/4595648/1860snubbiem-vi.jpg

Jack

[1874Sharps]

Gentlemen,

I wanted to mention that about ten years or so ago I broke a Colt 1860 44 caliber by loading the cylinder to max volume possible with a charge of 777 and round ball. After about fifty shots the alignment pins of the bottom front of the frame that fit into the barrel assembly broke clean off. Nowadays I am a BP purist and load quite a bit less.

[northmn]

Thats a problem also with brass frame revolvers. If you load compressed loads the pins starting loosening. They will over time with any loads. I am wondering why the pins would break on a heavy load. Usually frames stretch and that sort of thing. 777 is considered to have a little more umph than BP but I have loaded it equal volume to BP with fair results. They do recommend that one does not compress it much. Trying to use heavily compressed loads can be hard on a revolver. Really if one needs more power a single shot patched ball pistol will work better and they are more accurate. We shoot the things for fun anyway. As MK42gunner implies, he wants a 31 Colt for fun, which is what the game is about. They will take small game if one can hit them with them. I think their popularity was due mostly to the fact they were small and easy to carry and had a deterrent effect when pointed at someone. A large number of people that carry pistols for self defense have never used one for that purpose or have shown that they were armed. I remember a waitress that claimed showing her 25 auto changed someones mind about his intent. Another pistol everyone should own at least once is a ML Deringer. If I used the recommended 15 grains behind the 45 ball, mine would not shoot through a piece of 1/2 inch plywood at 25 yards. If you loaded it so that you could see the ball looking down the muzzle it had some authority. As to accuracy???

Northmn

[Willbird]

When I did most of my shooting with my Old Army I was only 16. And having horsepower on tap was a BIG thing, so was being deadly accurate with it :-). One of my dads friends had a 4" security six, and we would drink beer (yea I know...sigh...but I survived) and fill the empties with water and set them on an old foundation out 50 yards or so, and set against the house and shoot them.

Well he would get ^%$#@*&^ because I would hit ALL of them and he did not get to hit any, I would fire 6 times, reload, and fire 6 more and they were all gone...and he had not hit a single one.

I have a walker reproduction flask with the built in powder measure.

After I got that pistol for Christmas we hit the gunshow, and I did not find a round ball mold, but I DID find the lee conical mold just for the old army. I lubed them with javalina, not knowing that was a deadly sin (worked fine for me) and shot up a hell of a lot of them, including some made from dad's lino stash...those lino round noses propelled by a compressed load of fffg were like armor piercing ammo compared to any cartridge revolver that friends had to go shooting with :-).

Bill