How much smoke you get firing non lube cast bullets? [Archive]

Siggy226

11-26-2009, 10:47 PM

I fired 3 today to see what would happen. Boy was I shocked. Who ever posted something like this some where here, I'm experiencing the same thing. It's almost as smokey as lubed bullets.

What is this smoke I see? Is it all lead vapors? I'm using same powder (W231) for plated bullets and I don't see any smoke.

This is not good. I wonder how affective is the lube in keeping lead from melting off bullet!? I need to shoot them all outdoors. My indoor range has terrible ventilation right now. They said filters are getting clogged and nearing end of its life and should be changed within 1-2 weeks. Well, I wanted to say it should be changed right now! but I held back because I'm a noob member. We'll see how good it really is once they change the filters.

I think I got big time lead poisoned today. I fired 250rds of lubed cast bullets and lots of black snot b/c smoke stayed in my face. After emptying my mag, I purposely start picking up my brass to duck away from smoke. DOH!

I keep forgetting to mention caliber - it's 9mm for Sig P226

Bullet Lube is liquid Xlox with 2 coatings, very little lead fouling. 1 light coat was useless... major lead fouling and immediately understood what bad fouling looked like after 50rds. Going to try a batch with 3 coats and see what happens.

Fixxah

11-26-2009, 11:05 PM

That isn't good. I have yet to shoot any gun indoors, not because I am against it but because my club doesn't have one yet. I am using w231 under 230 truncated and it seems to smoke less that the red dot does. Shooting under a halogen light at night.

runfiverun

11-26-2009, 11:09 PM

try a different powder.
i used to use 231 to practice like i was using b/p.
you could also be seeing powder blow by, i've had unique smoke like b/p before too.

Ricochet

11-27-2009, 01:03 AM

Unique and its sister powders contain rosin, which makes a lot of smoke and soot.

lwknight

11-27-2009, 01:12 AM

Win 231 is sooty in light loads. I get a puff of smoke with any bullet.

lylejb

11-27-2009, 01:55 AM

Smoke comes from the powder and /or lube...not from lead. Some powders / lubes are worse than others. Alox lube, such as Lee liquid alox, or even 50/50 stick lubes will smoke, which is more noticable indoors because of lesser ventilation. Add this to a powder that smokes and you can have quite a combo.

What lube are you using?

Is it all lead vapors? Little, if any, is lead vapor.

how affective is the lube in keeping lead from melting off bullet!? You have the best answer to that in hand...or in your barrel.
If the bullets were melting in the barrel, even a little bit, you would have a heavy leading build up. Did you have a leading problem?
You didn't say what gun these were fired from, but when you say 9mm I think of a pistol with about 4 - 6 in barrel, and velocities around 1200 fps or so. I think most lubes will work in that environment.

I think I got big time lead poisoned today Fortunatly, probably not. While I DO recommend good ventilation, I don't think much lead vapor was generated. What you got was smoke. While not good for you either, it's not nearly as bad as lead.

You might try a cleaner powder, like Hodgdon universal and /or a cleaner lube.

hope this helps.

Siggy226

11-27-2009, 02:19 AM

Thanks for the info all.

I was just confused that my plated bullets using W231 did not produce any noticeable smoke compared to my cast bullet with no lube and was shocked to see all that smoke. I don't understand the science of why gun powder would not smoke with plated but will for lead, so the only thing I could think of is lead vapor. :veryconfu I'm pretty sure my cast bullet loads produce more pressue too. My hands just get a little bit black, compared to badly blackened hands with plated. LOL

I'm shooting with Sig P226. After quick experimentation, I figured I may need just a little bit more lube (liquid Xlox) and see how that'll do. But I'm seeing very little leading in the barrel after 350rds. I find that 2nd coating did wonders. 1 light coat was a complete failure. A saw a lead stick or two flaking off inside barrel! Maybe 3rd coating would eliminate. Doubt I'll ever reach point of no leading that is why I'm a little concerned about lead vapors.

helg

11-27-2009, 02:31 AM

I was just confused that my plated bullets using W231 did not produce any noticeable smoke compared to my cast bullet with no lube and was shocked to see all that smoke.
Copper gives more bore surface friction that lead. With the same charge plated bullets show higher pressure and muzzle velocity. You should see this with chronograph.

Adding that powder burns faster under higher pressure, it concludes that in your copper load the powder may have burned completely, while in the lead one it is not. Unburned powder gives that smoke.

Siggy226

11-27-2009, 02:39 AM

Copper gives more bore surface friction that lead. With the same charge plated bullets show higher pressure and muzzle velocity. You should see this with chronograph.

Adding that powder burns faster under higher pressure, it concludes that in your copper load the powder may have burned completely, while in the lead one it is not. Unburned powder gives that smoke.

Hmmm.. makes sense... I'm using 4.5 grains for plated and 4.0 for cast. It appears i'm getting signs of flat primers at 4.0 for cast and none for plated so I thought pressures were higher in the cast loads. But what do I know!? I don't know any better. LOL! But my Sig cycles 100% at 4.0. I can't change seating depth either. 1.070-80 is more or less the only thing I can do with this Lee TL-356-124-TC bullet. Seat a little higher (~1.090), bullet will hit rifling.

helg

11-27-2009, 03:03 AM

RSOJim

11-27-2009, 08:26 AM

Sometimes I am a range officer at Glock matches. Its very easy to tell when a shooter is using ww 231. It smokes using light charges. thanks Jim

Bret4207

11-27-2009, 08:50 AM

Boolits DO NOT "melt in the barrel"- period. It's not possible under the conditions we shoot under. What does happen is errosion of the lead alloy by hot gases and rough barrels, lube that vaporizes, and powder/primer smoke. What you are describing as "smoke" is probably something made up of a combination or powder residue and vaporized lube.

A plated boolit shouldn't be letting lead alloy beneath the plating errode anyway.

Ricochet

11-27-2009, 09:18 AM

Boolits DO NOT "melt in the barrel"- period. It's not possible under the conditions we shoot under.
Absolute statements aren't always absolutely true. Several years ago we had a Group Buy for a "Fat Thirty Plinker" boolit with Lee Tumble Lube style microbands and a plain base. I cast some of those out of wheelweights, water dropped, tumbled them unsized in LLA twice, and loaded them over 3.1cc (About 41.5 grains) of 7383. I fired them through my 1943 Izhevsk M91/30 with the bayonet fixed. I knew those were loaded too hot for a plain base boolit, but figured all they could do is be inaccurate and leave me with some leading to scrub out. I got the inaccurate part right, I never got any of that batch on paper. No idea where they went. But when I went to clean the rifle, the bayonet had lumpy black deposits on it on the side toward the muzzle. I tried scrubbing that stuff off with soap and water and then tried Hoppe's #9 and several other solvents. No joy. I finally tried some 0000 steel wool and found that the lumps were actually rounded droplets of silvery metal fused to the surface of the bayonet! The only way I could get it off was with careful scraping with a knife. Took a lot of work. I don't know exactly why the lead melted. Frictional heating and gas cutting were my two main hypotheses. I also found it odd that the molten lead would "solder" itself so effectively to the hot blued and oiled surface of the bayonet. But there it was. I repeated the experiment with the boolits tumbled in White Lightning Bicycle Chain Lube instead of LLA. Still got wild shooting, with no boolit on paper. The bayonet was coated with a white powdery deposit, of a sootlike texture. Took some scrubbing to get that stuff (which I thought was the burned residue of lithium soap) off, but there was no new lead deposited. I had no way of knowing whether the WL stopped the lead from melting as it did with the LLA, or whether its white residue kept the lead from sticking to the bayonet. Someone else may wish to replicate the experiment, but I'm done with it.

Siggy226

11-27-2009, 02:10 PM

I cast and shoot TL-356-124-TC. Because of the shape and OAL it does need a reduced charge, comparing with RN bullet of the same weight.

4 grains of Win231 with OAL 1.075 in 4.4" bbl of the 225 calculates to 1070 fps of the muzzle speed and 33.7K psi max pressure, which is 96% of the SAAMI (regular, non +P) max. Powder burns completely with this load when bullet travels just 3.2" through the bore. I doubt that the excessive smoke may not come from the unburned powder. Anyway, my load with this cast bullet is 3.06 of 700x with 1.065" OAL shows 1030fps and calculates to 71% of the max pressure. Only 98% of the powder is burned while bullet travels through my 5" barrel. I do not see any excessive smoke at all.

Very interesting analysis! I do have feeling that my plated loads have less pressure even with more powder. I end up with badly blackened hands. My cast loads leaves minimal black hands. What on earth is that white smoke when I'm firing non lubed cast bullets? I'm back to think it's lead vapors again. ARrgh!

The sooner i shoot outdoors (downwind) the sooner I feel better about all this... I will get lead blood test in the spring. I just started shooting heavily a few weeks ago. I need to build up lead in my blood first.

helg

11-27-2009, 02:27 PM

Siggy226

11-27-2009, 02:37 PM

Great! Please fire a few with no lube on it and see what happens. Good to hear too that you're using same Lee TC bullet too.

Just a recap that I fired 3 non lubed bullets first and all 3 produced equally as much smoke. After that, I switched to five Remington FMJ (zero smoke) and I proceeded to shoot 250rds of 4.0g, OAL 1.070 with 2x Xlox lube. Scary thing is, I noticed almost as much as smoke with 2 coatings of Xlox lube.

My brass looks pretty clean. Pretty much same as 1x fired factory.

What do you shoot it with?

Looking forward to hear your report. Thanks!

Bret4207

11-27-2009, 02:48 PM

Absolute statements aren't always absolutely true. Several years ago we had a Group Buy for a "Fat Thirty Plinker" boolit with Lee Tumble Lube style microbands and a plain base. I cast some of those out of wheelweights, water dropped, tumbled them unsized in LLA twice, and loaded them over 3.1cc (About 41.5 grains) of 7383. I fired them through my 1943 Izhevsk M91/30 with the bayonet fixed. I knew those were loaded too hot for a plain base boolit, but figured all they could do is be inaccurate and leave me with some leading to scrub out. I got the inaccurate part right, I never got any of that batch on paper. No idea where they went. But when I went to clean the rifle, the bayonet had lumpy black deposits on it on the side toward the muzzle. I tried scrubbing that stuff off with soap and water and then tried Hoppe's #9 and several other solvents. No joy. I finally tried some 0000 steel wool and found that the lumps were actually rounded droplets of silvery metal fused to the surface of the bayonet! The only way I could get it off was with careful scraping with a knife. Took a lot of work. I don't know exactly why the lead melted. Frictional heating and gas cutting were my two main hypotheses. I also found it odd that the molten lead would "solder" itself so effectively to the hot blued and oiled surface of the bayonet. But there it was. I repeated the experiment with the boolits tumbled in White Lightning Bicycle Chain Lube instead of LLA. Still got wild shooting, with no boolit on paper. The bayonet was coated with a white powdery deposit, of a sootlike texture. Took some scrubbing to get that stuff (which I thought was the burned residue of lithium soap) off, but there was no new lead deposited. I had no way of knowing whether the WL stopped the lead from melting as it did with the LLA, or whether its white residue kept the lead from sticking to the bayonet. Someone else may wish to replicate the experiment, but I'm done with it.

The second I saw your reply I knew you'd mention that event. I have the same boolt and it doesn't shoot very well for me in anything I've tried it in.

Anyway, I don't believe your boolits "melted". Vaporized by errosion of gases, yes, but not melted. There isn't time for the powder gases to transfer the heat available to the boolit and melt it. There was a post a while back here somewhere that made reference to the scientific reasons, it can't happen. If you were to think of it as a spray of lead droplets "vaporized" by the powder gases erroding the boolit then I'd agree. THe reult is the same as what we think of as melting, more or less, but the cause is different.

BTW- Is that a turtle on your shoulder?

Wayne Smith

11-27-2009, 03:02 PM

One thing I haven't seen addressed. I'm not familar with either of the boolits mentioned since I don't load for the 9x19. Are they different lengths and does one take up more room in the case, leading to higher pressures and thus more complete combustion?

fredj338

11-27-2009, 03:03 PM

AS stated before, the lead does not vaporize. Look at the base of a recovered lead bullet, it may not even have powder scortching on it depending on the powder type. You may get some lead particles stripped off in the barrel & they get blown out w/ the powder & bullet, but no lead vaporization. You get as much lead exposure from the priming compound as the lead bullet. I avoid indoor ranges, but when I do, I like to shoot plated or jacketed to lessen any exposure.

helg

11-27-2009, 03:04 PM

Great! Please fire a few with no lube on it and see what happens. I do not have an unlubed bullets of this type ready, but have some that I moly-coated. I will try with the moly as well.

What do you shoot it with? It is PT92 with 5"bbl. All barrels, which I have for the gun, are oversized, and slug to .3570"-.3572". I shoot bullets from WW+1/20tin that are water quenched to BHN around 18, and sized (sic!) to .358" within a day after casting. Good is that "as cast" diameter with this alloy from the mold is .358"+, so I am not getting undersized bullets for the big barrels - should be no gas cutting. With the above 700x load after ~100 shots bore is hardly distinguishable from a just cleaned one, and this is, probably, the main reason why I did not try other powders yet. I tried Bullseye under the same setup, and it smokes like crazy.

DLCTEX

11-27-2009, 03:21 PM

One thing, I'm surprised that it hasn't been mentioned, is that you are in greater danger of lead poisoning from the primer combustion than from the boolit, unless you are shooting some of the lead free primers. Keep that ventilation system working. Smoke of any kind is not healthy to breathe and should be avoided if possible.

Siggy226

11-27-2009, 03:42 PM

Yup... I getting double whammy of lead exposure right now. My range ventilation sucks and I complained already. They're scheduled to change filters. We'll see what it's like right after that. Still, it should be changed right now. I'm breathing in lead regardless what I shoot thx to primers too. :(

On top of what I shoot, i'm also exposed to others shooting their goodies. arrgh! I'm looking for an outdoor range this weekend. My indoor club claims to be start of the art. Yeah right... I've been to run down indoor ranges in Cali and I can feel draft in back of head. Even though I was shooting tons of factory ammo, I couldn't smell anything and don't recall getting black snot either. I smell anything I shoot out of my P226 at my indoor range and black snot is guaranteed. But let's see how it's like after filter change. At least i can still use their facilities if ventilation is good 6 out of 12 months. LOL

Siggy226

11-27-2009, 03:47 PM

I do not have an unlubed bullets of this type ready, but have some that I moly-coated. I will try with the moly as well.
It is PT92 with 5"bbl. All barrels, which I have for the gun, are oversized, and slug to .3570"-.3572". I shoot bullets from WW+1/20tin that are water quenched to BHN around 18, and sized (sic!) to .358" within a day after casting. Good is that "as cast" diameter with this alloy from the mold is .358"+, so I am not getting undersized bullets for the big barrels - should be no gas cutting. With the above 700x load after ~100 shots bore is hardly distinguishable from a just cleaned one, and this is, probably, the main reason why I did not try other powders yet. I tried Bullseye under the same setup, and it smokes like crazy.

I want to fire a few more to try out again but I don't have any left either. LOL!

Hmm... I'll definitely lube a batch with more Xlox and see if i can get same results as you. If I can't I'll know it's likely bullet sizing issue, but i can live with very little fouling after 350rds. I'm using melted down WW, water dropped. I don't know hardness. But all i know is my reloads are more accurate than me.

Siggy226

11-27-2009, 04:23 PM

helg: what software you are using to get those estimates? Sounds like a pretty cool program!

helg

11-27-2009, 05:27 PM

helg: what software you are using to get those estimates? Sounds like a pretty cool program! I use QuickLoad. The program is a bit more expensive than a reloading manual, but gives way more information for the loading.

helg

11-29-2009, 04:53 PM

I have an unopened pound of Win231 that I was planning to test with. Looks like this weekend will be proper time to make the test. So, Sunday.. I am going to test how Win231 compares with 700X and other powders under 124-TC-TL bullet with alox in smoke and brass dirtiness when loaded to the similar pressure. I just returned from the range. Unfortunately, there was a light breeze at the range, so I can not judge aссurately on the smoke issue.

I loaded the Lee bullet over 3.40 and 3.57 grains of W231 (.32 and .34 Lee disks, measured by digital scale, not by VMD table), 2.50 of VV N310 (.30cc Lee disk) and was comparing it to my standard charge, which is 3.06 of 700X. I have found some unlubed 124-TC-TL bullets and loaded then over Win231(hotter charge of the two) and 700X, 5 bullets on each charge. Rest of the box was filled by alox-lubed bullets with the above four charges. All charges are of the same pressure range (70-80% max) with 910-1030 fps. Muzzle speed was matching the calculated one for each of the charges. Needless to say that primers did not show any warnings.

There was no smoke to be aware on. Again, this was outdoors with light breeze, so the results may not be adequate. I could not say that brass after any of the powders was cleaner. All has been lightly smoked outside. There was visible leading in the breech half of the bore - see picture. I assume that this is due to unlubed bullets, does it sound right? The whole leading area is captured at the picture. Other lands at the bore and the whole area near the muzzle do not have any visible lead deposits. The other gun with bullets from the same alloy over Red Dot powder did not show today any leading and any significant dirt in the bore. My auto-focus camera can not focus at the other bore - it is that clean.

There may be more appropriate weather in coming weekends, so I could capture more on smoke issue.

Siggy226

11-29-2009, 08:18 PM

helgq: thx for the range report.

I shot outdoors for first time with my cast bullets today. Slight breeze blowing 45 degree upwind. Same loads as before (4.0 W231, Lee TL-356-124-TC) and it just made puff of smoke that left my face in 1 second. Shooting outdoors is great. I did smell a tiny bit of powder from time to time, but zero trace of black snot like at my indoor range (all the time regardless what I shoot). I have to say, 99% improvement in air quality.

Yup, smoke is not as noticeable outdoors when there's a breeze.

Unforunately, the new outdoor range I joined minimum distance is 25yards, the next one is 50. It's mainly for rifles and they just got approved for handguns recently. Best I can do is consistently hit 8.5x11" paper. No other choice. Good better or give up.

At least I can now shoot my rifles too. :)

Here are my pics of what I consider minor lead fouling from today's 300rds. 50x brush scape would clean it up 99%. The other 1% takes a few hundred. I will try my next batch of bullets (3x coated with Xlox). This is 2x lube. 1x lube was unbearable after 50rds (no pics for that).

Sorry, pics not that good. I have no excuse except for my poor macro skills. I don't blame my Canon XT DSLR.

Update: Just cleaned my barrel after soaking in hoppes 9 for an hour. 50 scrapes and it's 99% clean. Soaking it over night to deal with rest of the dirt that I cannot see but only brushing would reveal. So, do you guys find this accetable? Gun still shoots more accurate than me at 25yards is all I can say. I notice no issues in accuracy compared to 1st rd and 300th rd.

Ricochet

11-29-2009, 08:49 PM

BTW- Is that a turtle on your shoulder?
That's Zelly, my "grandtortoise." She's my daughter's baby red footed tortoise. She's a really sweet little pet!

I don't think lead vapor would've deposited in such large droplets. I don't know exactly why that lead melted in that load, and don't think I've seen it elsewhere, but maybe my Walker with the chambers .006" smaller than the groove diameter was allowing blowby gas to melt lead. After shooting it a while, the bore looked just like a battery post cleaner with all the bristles pointing toward the middle. You can see a few strands of lead like that in the above pics.

Bret4207

11-30-2009, 10:28 AM

Simple test to prove it- take a cloth or paper wad and shoot it. Is it consumed in flames? Nope, many times it's not even charred. Covered in soot, yes, but not burnt. If there isn't enough heat/time to burn cloth there certainly isn't enough to melt lead. You've got serious blowby to use the mechanics term.

Siggy226

12-07-2009, 02:12 PM

I fired 300rds of 3x Xlox lube yesterday. Amazing. Virtually no leading at all.

I don't know how some can get away with 1 light coat. Likely many factors, but this is what I do for best results. I don't resize my TL-356-124-TC casts (used WW, water dropped). After cutting down, the Xlox is still thicker than standard bottle of Alox too. But 3x coat works great for me and Xlox is dirt cheap. I think 8oz bottle (20-25% cut) will do about 5k since I have to lube it 3x time. I think they're very accurate to boot. Shoots straight as an arrow at 25 yards (no tumbling). Not able to get nice groups due to poor skills, but can easily hit 8.5x11" paper and close to bullseye with my recipe.

BTW, I'm shooting at outdoor range now. Zero black snot.

Doesn't matter what I shoot at indoor, still getting black snot. :(

Russel Nash

12-07-2009, 02:27 PM

Siggy in his original post wrote:

....Who ever posted something like this some where here, I'm experiencing the same thing. It's almost as smokey as lubed bullets...

That was probably me.

One other reason that I have heard for smokey lead boolits is that some powders are a double base and other powders are single base.

A lot of people recommend Winchester Super Target or Solo1000 for a less smokey round.

Siggy226

12-07-2009, 02:33 PM

Siggy in his original post wrote:

That was probably me.

One other reason that I have heard for smokey lead boolits is that some powders are a double base and other powders are single base.

A lot of people recommend Winchester Super Target or Solo1000 for a less smokey round.

I see, but the weirdest thing is, I'm using same powder for plated and and I don't notice any smoke. Using W231 4.6 grains for plated and 4.0 grains for cast. Pressure appears to be higher in the cast too. Noticing hint of flat primers with cast.

Russel Nash

12-08-2009, 01:30 AM

Siggy wrote up above:

I see, but the weirdest thing is, I'm using same powder for plated and and I don't notice any smoke.

helg back on the first page wrote:

Copper gives more bore surface friction that lead. With the same charge plated bullets show higher pressure and muzzle velocity. You should see this with chronograph.

Adding that powder burns faster under higher pressure, it concludes that in your copper load the powder may have burned completely, while in the lead one it is not. Unburned powder gives that smoke.

I tell ya what...I think helg summed it up pretty well right there.

I really can't add anything else to that.

Well, maybe I can... 4.6 grains takes up more internal volume than say just 4.0 grains.

Also, a plated or jacketed bullet should, theoretically take up more space inside the case because it is longer than a cast boolit. Said another way...a plated or jacketed bullet has less density than a cast boolit, since a cast boolit is all lead. Copper weighs less than lead.

Less internal volume in the case leads to higher pressure...which I am guessing produces a cleaner burn.

.... I am guessing....