What to Expect on Cast Rifle Bullets

[CajunRebel]

Bought some 1/25 lead, have a Hoch .322-200gr no-taper mould for fixed ammo for .32-40 Highwall. Out of 200, I randomly selected, sized (.321), and lubed (SPG) 50 boolits to see how they would come out. Weighing the 50, the weight varied from a low of 197.4 to a high of 212.8 grains, averaging 208.224gr, std deviation 3.257gr. Is there something I should be going to narrow the minimum and maximum weight, or is this typical when moulding bullets?

[JIMinPHX]

That's kind of a big spread. Are the heels & band corners sharp & well filled out? Are the bases flat? Can you post some pictures?

[CajunRebel]

Need to get new camera, sorry. Hochs are top pour. Bullets are in great shape, all edges are sharp, especially base. Nose cut clean, no cavities, np waves, no frsoting, etc. Tossed all bad bullets back into melt. All I can think of is temperture variations. Or my little MTM electronic scale is on the fritz.

[AZ-Stew]

I'd suspect voids due to not leaving a generous sprue puddle for the cooling boolit to draw from. If you're ladle pouring, leave the ladle in contact with the upright mould for 5-10 seconds before removing it. If using a bottom pour pot, pour a generous puddle of alloy on top of the sprue plate and let it sit for 5-10 seconds before cutting the sprue. You can see it cool and you can see the dimple form in the puddle as the boolit cools inside the mould and draws metal from the puddle. This should give you boolits of more consistent weight.

Regards,

Stew

[JohnH]

While that does sound like a big spread, taking it that you are perhaps new to casting can explain some of that spread. The technique you use can influence that tremendously. If you preheat your mold or not before casting, if you add lead back to your pot and don't allow recovery time of the melt, if you stop and "fool around" with something or another during the session. Everything you do and how you do it has an effect on the overall run.

Two things. First, before making any judgements, go shoot some and see how they do. You'll likely be surprised how well they will shoot. Second, segregate the boolits into lots that are seperated by only a few grains and shoot them as lots. Again, you'll likely find very satisfactory performance.

I have the RCBS 30-150 CB, it is a plain base boolit meant for cowboy action shootzen. Over the course of a 500 boolit run I'll see about 12 grains of extreeme spread. The boolit shoots as well for me just grabin' a bunch up, lubin' and loadin' and they do sortin' by weight. 1.5" at 65 yards. Don't sound too great on one side, but they do that from 3 different guns with 3 different loads.

As well, a few years back I was shootin' an NEF in 38-55 using the Lyman 379244, a 265 grain gas check boolit. I could do no wrong with that boolit in that barrel, it shot well with everything I tried. A short time later I found myself playing with a 375 JDJ barrel on a TC Encore and no matter what I did that boolit barely shot 2" groups, 3" being more the norm. 4" groups were easy to get. And so were cloverleaf groups with the Hornady 220 J-word with most any powder charge under it.

As to the statisics you are applying to your boolits, that really don't tell you as much about your boolits as it tells your about your process. The more consistant your process, the lower those numbers will be. But if that boolit won't shoot, or your barrel don't like it, it won't matter how good the numbers are. And how well a boolit shoots has a lot more to do with things like barrel condition, the load and it's suitability for the boolit/cartridge/alloy/velocity than with your pouring technique between 1 and 1:30 and 1:30 and 2:00.

So, go shoot some of 'em and see how they do, as that is the real quality test.

[John Boy]

Any nose pour molds have to have a high temperature of the melt when casting large weight bullets. That said, then the rhythm has to be consistently used for pouring. If not done this way ... the bell curve weights will be all over the place. When the large sprue puddle frosts at 10 - 12 seconds, the melt temperature is correct and your bullets will drop within a small bell curve.

I've got a double cavity nose pour 535gr Modified Gunn 549 mold. Unless the melt temperature is 780-800 degrees, the weights are all over the place. But when I hit that magic number, alloy dependent, it's a fun casting session with consistent weights within 1 grain variance

[Leftoverdj]

I'd check that scale.

I'd also check the distribution of weight. Are the weights all over the place or are just few bullets giving you that extreme spread with the majority clusterd in an acceptable range?

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I have a 180 grain nose-pour PB Hoch mold. For Match shooting I typicaly hold the bullets to +/- 0.15 grain extreme spread.

This is easily do-able. Just follow the advice of the other members on the thread.

Good evening,
Forrest

[KYCaster]

Gentlemen;

I have a 180 grain nose-pour PB Hoch mold. For Match shooting I typicaly hold the bullets to +/- 0.15 grain extreme spread.

This is easily do-able. Just follow the advice of the other members on the thread.

Good evening,
Forrest




Do you mean 179.85 to 180.15? Very possible but difinitely not easy, especially with a multi-cavity mold.

I think for anything up to 200gr. +/- 2% is OK for most applications and +/- 1% is a very good run. 250gr and up, you should be able to do a little better.

Jerry

[runfiverun]

put a clock that ticks in your casting area and follow the ticks,pay attention to the closing and holding closed tension of your mold,if you really want to get consistent get a cabinetree mold lock.
keep a consistent mold fill and closure time along with alloy temp and mold temp will narrow down your weights.
also weigh before you size and lube.

[FAsmus]

Jerry;

The Hoch mold is a one cavity tool. My casting technique is regular stuff and I shoot mainly 25/1 alloy bullets in a 30 Herrett LN single shot.

The weight as-cast goes into the 187 grain range usually and yes, I can hold them pretty consistent to the specified +/- 0.15 grain spread.

I find, in this bullet-weighing deal that weight inspection is useful in finding bullets that are visually good but way out of weight - indicating a void - so I keep doing it.

On the other hand I cast lots of heavy bullets - going into the 500 - 700 grain level and weigh them too. I must say that a +/- 1% or (even worse) 2% range on bullet weight seems out-of-the-envelope; we can do better, even much better than that! ~ Why a 2% allowance would run my 690 grain match bullets into the +/- 28 grains variation! My normal "Match" level spread for this tool is +/- 0.6 grains.

And, sure, I don't get all crazy about it - only "Match" grade bullets have to make the close inspection - it takes something like a +/- 2 grain problem to toss them back into the pot. All others are used for enjoyment and practice.

By the way my particular method for experimenting and attaining very close bullet-to-bullet weights was gained by weighing each bullet as it was cast on the electronic scale. This method will instantly show a change in casting cadence, alloy and mold temperature or ladle technique.

Good morning,
Forrest

[wickerbill]

CajanRebel, I've been using a Hock mold for about 10 years now. There are a few tricks to getting a consistent pore. First and foremost is a higher than normal temp on both the alloy and the mold. Second is the temp has to be consistent. Third is timing, you can't get in a hurry. You have to let the boolit cool enough inside the mold before you release the the pressure on the mold handles. I wait for a 15 second count after the sprue turns a dull color, before I release the pressure on the handles and dump out the boolit. John boy mentioned keeping the temp at 750 to 800 deg. Sence I'm casting a 525 gr boolit, so I have to keep the temp a little higher temp. I keep my alloy between 800 and 825 degs. It's so big a boolit, it doesn't frost at that temp.

The veriation in weight you are having is extreme for that size boolit. You are most likely having some voids up at the tip, because the alloy is not hot enough and cooling before the air escapes. I had the same problem when I first got my mold. I called Dave Farmer and he said raise the temp. I did and I haven't had any problem sense.
Bill

[CajunRebel]

:oops:Well, now for the rest of the story. I went back and carefully looked at those 50 bullets, wearing glasses this time. I eliminated the two light ones, for indeed they did have tiny holes at the nose. I used a knife to open them up and found little cavities below. The remaining 48 had a spread of 202 to 212.8grsm with an average deviation of 2.858. So I don't know if a 10gr (5%) spread is more typical. I also remembered I was using both a Lyman Mini-Mag and the Mag 20 Furnace, having problems getting the Mini-Mag to get the gheat up. I realize I was doing a lot of things wrong. I appreciate the input. Since this was my first run, I guess I better work a little harder and pay more attention; and only use the Mag 20 since it heats up properly. Thanks everyone!

[FAsmus]

Cajan;

It just picked up on somethng here ~ You aren't trying to cast bullets with one of those bottom-dump pots are you?

If so, give it up right away ~ for there is no way you'll ever, ever cast good bullets that way.

Sure, if all you want is to run off a few hundred pistol bullets or non-prcision plinkers they're OK. For anythng really exact get a ladle and go with the winner.

Good evening,
Forrest

[CajunRebel]

I remember reading that about using ladle pours. The reason I got out the Lyman Furnace bottom pour was the little pot was just not heating up enough and I was getting a lot of swirls and incomplete noses. I'll try again and let the little pot heat up more.

[mpmarty]

Ladle pouring is not one bit better than bottom pouring unless you want lots of impurities and slag in your boolits. I quit ladle pouring twenty five years ago and never looked back. I cast .30, .40, .452 and .460 diameter boolits in multi-cavity molds and cannot imagine trying to produce the quantity and quality I get using a ladle.

[303Guy]

The bottom pour has one advantage over ladle pouring. One can keep a molten supply of lead at the sprew until the cast is properly frozen and that molten supply is under pressure. OK, two advantages. Plus, a well made bottom pour can dump the lead into the mold real fast, eliminating 'twirl folds'. Make that three advantages.

[geargnasher]

Cajan;

It just picked up on somethng here ~ You aren't trying to cast bullets with one of those bottom-dump pots are you?

If so, give it up right away ~ for there is no way you'll ever, ever cast good bullets that way.

Sure, if all you want is to run off a few hundred pistol bullets or non-prcision plinkers they're OK. For anythng really exact get a ladle and go with the winner.

Good evening,
Forrest

Forrest, I must call BS on your statement, especially when dispensing advice to a relatively new caster. I frequently cast lots of 500 or more with my cheapo Lee bottom pour and have 255 grainers within 3/4 grain +- and and 161 grainers at +- 1/2 grain. I do get the occasional inclusion, but that is around 2-4% and often throws the weight 2-5 grains under, so they're easy to find. Most of my stuff I don't bother checking that closely because I can't tell much difference at the ranges I shoot, but those are a couple of recent examples of stuff I actually checked.

I throw back know culls at the time I cast them. I know the rhythm needed for each mould, and if I break that rhythm for any reason I cull the next several pours, regardless of appearance, until I know I'm back at the right temp.

Nothing against ladle pouring, it is an excellent way to get good boolits, but not the only way.

Gear

[Bent Ramrod]

As other posters have suggested, turn up the heat. That big top-and-bottom sprue plate on a nose pour mould soaks up a lot of heat and then lets it radiate off into the void when the cutter is swung out and away.

Don't know if this is anyone else's experience, but it has always seemed to me that Hoch moulds take a session or two of casting to break in. The blocks don't heat-blue quickly like Lyman or RCBS blocks do, and that little bit of surface oxidation seems to help the casting fill out better.

[FAsmus]

Gear & others;

Sure, we all have our view points. Just this time I had to put in my own regarding bottom-dump pots.

Everyone will undoubtly go their own way regardless but for me the alloy control possible with the ladle is far better than the pot .. I could go into detail but doubt it would be of much interest to the membership.

Suffice to say that I wouldn't even try to cast any of the big stuff (500 - 700 gr) by the pot method ~ it sounds too much like a time-consuming way to make scrap bullets.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[leftiye]

Plus 1 on turn up the heat. The top - in this case the nose end - of the boolit has to remain liquid while the rest of the boolit solidifies. This allows the bullet to freeze at full mold size and to replenish the shrinkage metal from the sprue puddle. So you see why it has to be molten until after the rest of the boolit freezes. In a Hoch mold the small mass of the nose makes this a problem to achieve - thus the need for a hotter mold.

Fas, I use a bottom pour, so I mabbe should not comment. But it is very fair to say to each his own on this issue of ladle versus bottom pour. There are many of us casting perfectly filled out boolits with no voids by both methods. There are also many threads here on this subject and good arguments both ways. Don't be so foolish as to run the BPCR creed on us please. There are other places in this world to be. And they're valid too.

[FAsmus]

Leftiye;

In this instance I accidentally touched a subject that is excessively hot, thinking it might be interesting. Apparently the membership has had energetic exchanges I didn't know about. It won't happen again.

I wouldn't think of running a BPCR deal on anyone ~ I've never done that kind of shooting and don't plan on it anytime in the future.

However, I didn't know it was a sore point either .. how did that come about?

Good morning,
Forrest

[leftiye]

Not to worry. Seems that I too jumped to conclusions.

[AZ-Stew]

FAs,

It's not so much a "sore point" as it is a "point of lively discussion". So long as no bruises are formed, nor blood drawn, let the discussions continue. That's why we're here. If we all agreed on everything there would be no need for the Cast Boolits forum (Heaven forbid!).

Regards,

Stew

[Tazman1602]

:oops:Well, now for the rest of the story. I went back and carefully looked at those 50 bullets, wearing glasses this time. I eliminated the two light ones, for indeed they did have tiny holes at the nose. I used a knife to open them up and found little cavities below. The remaining 48 had a spread of 202 to 212.8grsm with an average deviation of 2.858. So I don't know if a 10gr (5%) spread is more typical. I also remembered I was using both a Lyman Mini-Mag and the Mag 20 Furnace, having problems getting the Mini-Mag to get the gheat up. I realize I was doing a lot of things wrong. I appreciate the input. Since this was my first run, I guess I better work a little harder and pay more attention; and only use the Mag 20 since it heats up properly. Thanks everyone!

Mini-Mag should work great -- if not it's broke. First, make sure you fill it up before you shut the heat off every time. Then when you plug it in to heat it up get a timer and set it for 30 minutes and walk away. Flux often (every 20-30 minutes) and I won't tell you what I use because the guys here hate it......

This next step is very important to me. Pour with the regular glasses, inspect with the high strength bifocals........<GRIN>

Art

[Tazman1602]

Leftiye;

In this instance I accidentally touched a subject that is excessively hot, thinking it might be interesting....................................... It won't happen again.

Good morning,
Forrest

Aw hell no, keep talking. Personally I like to hear all sides of the story. I changup techniques frequently just to see how they work. I figure if there's 1000 ways to screw up a cast bullet, I know about 100 of them now.............not like deer hunting, I know 998 ways to screw that up.

Just so's you know I don't own a bottom pour pot but I'm gonna have one someday.......they gotta be faster for making handgun bullets that the two-bangers I've got now!

Art

[HamGunner]

It certainly does seem that the BPCR fellows can get a bit opinionated. But they need to throw in input also to keep all the knowledge flowing. As long as they accept the fact that their way is not the only way.:razz:

I used to only pour with a dipper when I started out with a 10lb. pot on a coleman stove. I got some great shooting bullets for my old .44 for which I could cover the groups with a quarter at 25yds. and I used a Lee Loader to load them with. But, I mostly bottom pour nowdays except for my larger bullets.

My first Lee (a six holer) gave me fits until I got the hang of it as did my first RCBS. I think each mold and especially different makes of molds will want just a wee bit of fiddling with to find the just right combo of timing and temperature to get it right. Of course good clean fluxed metal is very important. And with a bottom pour, I keep a layer of sawdust ash on top of the melt the whole duration.