Massive Leading

[Bass Ackward]

I loaded up 200 of the custom 240 grain PB, .434, multiple length 44 bullet we had done up a few months back. I loaded these up with 8 grains of Herco because I had some teens coming over with some shooting experience, just not with heavy boomers. This load has proven to be a consistent 2" performer at 25 yards. I thought it would be good entertainment for them and I was right. I handed them two Redhawks and got them started on chipmunks in the woods. After covering all the safety bases, I briefed them to watch their rate of fire. After a couple of cylinders full of proper operation I left them in the hands of their father and I left for a bathroom break. While in the midst of ...... deliberation in my only library in the house, I heard what sounded to be a reproduction of the gun fight at the OK Coral. By the time I got back down there, several cylinders had been expended and my worst fears came true. I no longer had any rifling in the guns that I could see.

After counseling their father who turns out was the first violator, (I wanted to do much more) I ended the shooting right there. I took the guns back to the house and decided to empty one of the boxes that had 16 shots left out of 100. I shot two targets at @ 50 yards Creedmore style. To my surprise, I had two, 2" groups! Remember, this load would have been a 4" to 5" performer from a clean / lead free gun. After that shock, I decided to see what happened at longer range and I busted the first blackbird I saw at about 125 yards.

I was going to put some low velocity GCs through to remove the bulk of the leading, but I decided to leave it for awhile to see how long it takes for accuracy to go south.

The saga continues.

[44man]

Hey, I didn't know you liked smoothbores!
First question is why they leaded, even with fast shooting?

[Bass Ackward]

First question is why they leaded, even with fast shooting?


Why?

The bore condition was not smooth enough nor bullet hardness high enough to prevent the heat buildup from pressure and friction that broke down the lube's ability to perform at that temperature. :grin:

Translation: They leaded.

[45 2.1]

And what lube were you using????

[Bass Ackward]

And what lube were you using????


Bob,

Sorry, missed your post until I revisited here.

LLA. This bullet works very well (If you don't go beyond the lube) with LLA because of the multiple crimp grooves.

Anyway, I let the gun sit for a few days and then repeated the tests since I had another box of shell to dispatch. Accuracy was still good right up until the end. It would have still been OK, but I wanted to clean the gun and repeat the tests with a clean tube. Sure enough, groups went back to about 2" at 25 yards from a clean gun.

What this basically shows me is that you can over come just about anything in a handgun and find a load that will shoot. I was fairly amazed even though no accuracy records were set. I have had loads in the passed that shot well with streak leading, but never what I would diagnose as .... heavy leading. I can clearly see why some guys never clean their guns. They have found loads that work for them under those particular (blackbore) conditions.

I thought I was going to have a mess to clean up but I have a 225 grain bullet that the only lube groove on the bullet is a .150 wide GC groove. So on went some LLA and I loaded up 6 with 5 grains of Bullseye. After the six shots, there was virtually no lead to remove. Just the light streaky stuff that had I not been lazy and loaded up 6 more, I probably would have been clean. It helps to leave the grease groove empty of hydrolic lube, thus the LLA, to give the lead scraped off the barrel a place to build up so the check can carry it out. Took 30 minutes to restore to a lead free bore and night stand cleanliness.

But I still prefer loads that don't lead. Just call me biased in that regard.

[45 2.1]

That boolit was designed to be used with a full lube groove of very soft lube. Give it a try that way.

[Bass Ackward]

That boolit was designed to be used with a full lube groove of very soft lube. Give it a try that way.

Bob,

I have. And it does. This bullet has been a complete 180 from my expcetations. I purchased it for use as a rifle bullet at .434. But because it tapers, or for some other reason, it doesn't outperform other bullets I have for that same purpose.

But it has turned out to be a very .... flexible bullet for handguns. I have accurate loads from 800 fps to over 1500 fps and they are accurate out to the 200 yds I have tested it. For moderate velocity loadings, I size to an even .431. For the slow powders, I just lube it and let the cylinder size it. Here, the taper works out just dandy. Funny how things work bass ackward to expectations sometimes. This has become my everything or catch all bullet design because it works fairly well under a broad set of situations which is great considering I have bullets sitting all over the place from the 6 cavity mold.

I was just in a hurry to get these shells loaded (and loaded cheaply) for various reasons. It won't lead with LLA as long as the firing rate does not over heat the barrel. In fact, low velocity loads with this bullet using medium to fast powders have actually worked better for accuracy without any lube in that groove for some reason. I even tried pure bees wax in that groove and LLA over that. Now if I run it up, I use a hydrolic lube. But this bullet is great for loading as a plinker that way. Just size, lube, load, shoot.

[45 2.1]

I use the Old NRA lube formula with it: equal parts by volume of; beeswax, parafin, vaseline. What alloy and hardness you using?

[Bass Ackward]

I use the Old NRA lube formula with it: equal parts by volume of; beeswax, parafin, vaseline. What alloy and hardness you using?


Bob,

Low velocity (pressure) stuff is 50/50 ACWW / Pb at 9 BHN.

18,000 psi and up is ACWW +2% tin or 50/50 HTWW/Pb. (14-16 BHN)

If I HT those with the load that leaded, it would probably not lead, but the idea of that load is simplicity of reloading steps so that's why the LLA. That's my load and go load and when snake, turtle, or frog hunting around the ponds. All you have to do is get close. :grin: Shooting at slow(er) rates of fire, it doesn't lead. But since this is a new load in a newer gun, I may have problems later this summer. We'll see.

[45 2.1]

Please keep us posted on how it does. Have you tried Green Dot or other powders than Herco with it yet?

I've used that low pressure alloy for a very long time. When I want expansion and velocity with it, I Freecheck the boolit. It provides clean bores thru 1700 fps. I really haven't pushed it past that, but the pressure was about 38,000 psi.

[buck1]

Bass , this is most likely no help , But FWIW I once loaded up 50 rds of 10 gr 2400, 240 gr SWC, mag brass ,and .431 BHN 19 , lbt blue lube..
From my rest they would hold 2.3 to 3 in at 25.
After the box was shot up at slow fire, I had a redhawk with a bore like yours.
I assumed it was the low pressure doing something strange but I never figured it out for sure. FWIW....Buck

[Bass Ackward]

Please keep us posted on how it does. Have you tried Green Dot or other powders than Herco with it yet?

I've used that low pressure alloy for a very long time. When I want expansion and velocity with it, I Freecheck the boolit. It provides clean bores thru 1700 fps. I really haven't pushed it past that, but the pressure was about 38,000 psi.


Bob,

No Green Dot. I kind of inherited a bunch of powders that another guy didn't want anymore and I have had no trouble finding a load 2" / 25 load with any of them yet.

Two that have performed better than the rest have been AA#5 and WW630. (Actually 2400 is the best, but I meant of that I was given.)But this is only marginablly so, Maybe 1 3/4" groups. But I sleep with the 630, so everything else is being used first. So far the worst powders have been with Unique and 800X which are normally staples. I will bet that I just need to play around and correct something and life would improve in that regard as well.

I find that this design is very flexible. By that I mean the difference between my best and worst groups is not as wide as some other designs and powder charge is not that critical. Take the Herco. Anything between 7 and 8 grains makes the grade. But I have not had great success with anything except 2400. One strange thing for my guns though is that it shoots the best deep seated where I have the most bullet jump with fast powders and seated out with 2400 or slower. Sorta bass ackwards really.


Buck,

You could be correct on the low pressure. Quickload makes that out to be about 6,000 psi. I say about because seating depth is critical to pressure, but even if you seated over the front drive band, it would still have been fairly low.

I had good success with 2400 around 12.5 - 13 grains with that weight slug. Then again at 15 / 15.5 grains and then 18 - 20 depending on the road you wanted to go down. Those powder charges work for several designs for me from 225 grains up to 285 which is as heavy as I go now. Only powder that I EVER found three points like that across multiple slugs. Most are one or maybe two. But that's why I hold a lot of 2400 downstairs. It can do so many things in so many different things.

[44man]

I don't know, Bass, I don't think anyone will ever convince me that L.A is. a good lube. I got a bunch when I ordered size dies and have tried it with all kinds of alloys and loads. I always had leading with the stuff in any gun. Yeah, I read a lot of posts that say it is great stuff and some guys swear by it but that has not been my experience. I am very stubborn and when I have to work too much to make something work, it just goes away, never to be played with again. If the alloy has to be very specific for a lube to work, it is not worth the trouble. I have never been too picky about alloys. When I make one and it varies a little from time to time, so what? For general shooting, plain WW's work fine and I would never waste my pure lead to soften it. Adding a little tin to WW's does not show any improvement in casting or shooting either so I no longer waste tin.
For long range and hunting I add tin and antimony to WW's.
Using the best lube in the world---Felix----I can shoot until I can fry eggs on the barrel of any of my revolvers with zero leading.
As far as boolits that are too small and have to be soft to "bump up", it is far easier to make the boolit larger and forget all that stuff. Fit the boolit to the gun and cast harder. I have never under any circumstances had good luck and no leading with soft boolits even when they fit. There is just no lube that will support a ball of soft putty being driven down a tube.
Your distance may vary, but I read too many posts about leading, accuracy problems, lube failures and on and on. I don't have those problems because I am a stubborn old man and if any of those problems crop up trying something, it is recorded and disposed of right away, never to be tried again. I refuse to work all year trying to make the wrong boolit, lube or alloy work.

[Bass Ackward]

I refuse to work all year trying to make the wrong boolit, lube or alloy work.


44man,

Don't ever assume that I am saying that LLA is a "good" lube. But it is a "convienient" lube that I would give my left *#& if I could make it work as well as others do. I could sure get rid of a lot of equipment. I think success is simply a confluence of the right conditions of which I probably don't have. Just like the guy that uses no lube at all and gets no leading. Bet he would think LLA is great stuff!

And as to your statement above, if I ever found everything to work, I would have to take up another hobby. "For me", "Its not the destination in life, but the journey, Grasshopper".

[Bucks Owin]

I don't know, Bass, I don't think anyone will ever convince me that L.A is. a good lube. I got a bunch when I ordered size dies and have tried it with all kinds of alloys and loads. I always had leading with the stuff in any gun. Yeah, I read a lot of posts that say it is great stuff and some guys swear by it but that has not been my experience. I am very stubborn and when I have to work too much to make something work, it just goes away, never to be played with again. If the alloy has to be very specific for a lube to work, it is not worth the trouble. I have never been too picky about alloys. When I make one and it varies a little from time to time, so what? For general shooting, plain WW's work fine and I would never waste my pure lead to soften it. Adding a little tin to WW's does not show any improvement in casting or shooting either so I no longer waste tin.
For long range and hunting I add tin and antimony to WW's.
Using the best lube in the world---Felix----I can shoot until I can fry eggs on the barrel of any of my revolvers with zero leading.
As far as boolits that are too small and have to be soft to "bump up", it is far easier to make the boolit larger and forget all that stuff. Fit the boolit to the gun and cast harder. I have never under any circumstances had good luck and no leading with soft boolits even when they fit. There is just no lube that will support a ball of soft putty being driven down a tube.
Your distance may vary, but I read too many posts about leading, accuracy problems, lube failures and on and on. I don't have those problems because I am a stubborn old man and if any of those problems crop up trying something, it is recorded and disposed of right away, never to be tried again. I refuse to work all year trying to make the wrong boolit, lube or alloy work.

I've found that LLA works "OK" when used with a hard alloy and a boolit with a lot of bearing surface. (eg 310 Lee .44) I haven't had much luck with it using shorter .44 cal boolits or any .357s....

Your results seem about the same...

Dennis

[44man]

There is just so much other stuff to play with like different boolits, primers, powders that there is no reason to get bored. I can spend every second of every day playing at the bench and at my range. That is what is nice about making my own moulds. If a boolit doesn't work, I throw the mould in the drawer and start again. Same with a powder or lube, if I am not satisfied, it goes in a drawer to gather moss. Some day the drawer will need cleaned out though. Once I find a load that works, I only use that load for target or hunting but that does not stop me from testing in the hope of finding one just a little better. Of course I find some much worse but always have my good loads to fall back to.
All I can say to all of you is to never be satisfied and keep on playing, after all, these are our toys.
I knew too many guys with no hobbys and they plopped in front of the tube or drove all over the country after retiring. They are all dead and gone now.
I feel bad for a fellow that has one boolit, one load, one lube and just quits, when the process is never ending. Anything that makes loading easy is just not right either. I feel 20 perfect loads is better then 10,000 quickly thrown together scrubs that don't perform. I bet I spend more time and effort on those 20 then some of you do on a whole pile of loads!

[44man]

Bass, I too have all the equipment but I usually sit and rub lube into the grooves with my fingers then push them through an oversize die or brass tube to remove the excess. Takes time but the only place I have to go is to be sprinkled on the ground in my woods so the deer can poop on my ashes.
Here are some of the tools. Nothing expensive or sophisticated.

[Dale53]

>>>I feel 20 perfect loads is better then 10,000 quickly thrown together scrubs that don't perform. <<<

What is even better is 10,000 quickly thrown together loads that DO perform. That is always my goal. Just goes to show that there are different strokes for different folks. I prefer to shoot but am willing to do the work (cast and load) to enable me to do so. But loading and casting is NOT the goal, for me. A good shooting load that can be assembled quickly and easily is my path...

Dale53

[44man]

I didn't mean you have to take forever to load, but to spend some time working to find the right one so you can then make a bunch of good ones. if you are going to do more testing, then take your time again.
Some of my friends just pick any load and rush to fill every piece of brass as fast as they can.
I work in small batches and always have to have some empty brass to work with. Once a good load is found, then I will load a few hundred, but I never load all of my brass because I never stop testing and will need it.
We do think the same and if I was sure I had the best load ever, I would love to have 10,000 of them. I am just never satisfied 100% so my work is a lot slower. I do have a few boolits that are run through the over size lube-sizer but I also have a bunch that I don't want a sizer to touch so I hand lube them.
Besides, I am retired! I can also load 20, go down to my range, shoot them and come back up and change something. I can leave my equipment and gun down on the bench until I have some more to shoot. That will make you feel bad if you have to drive 100 miles to the range.