brittle bullets?

[semtav]

Been playing around with different alloys from my scrap pile to see how they cast and shoot in my 40-65.

Looking at some of the slugs after they've gone thru three refrig doors, two pallets and ricocheted (sp) off a piece of metal in the back.

Some are just bent, but a few have broke in half and look real grainy and brittle.
am I shooting too brittle of alloy or is that how they typically look inside?

Using 4.5 lbs lead 1.5 lbs WW and 1 lb monotype.
and 4 lbs lead, 1.5 lbs WW and 1.5 lbs monotype

I run my small bullets with a lot less lead and lot more antimony.


I thought i knew what frosty looked like, but some of these have a galvanized look. they start out, with a few bullets looking nice and shiny, then go to a batch that looks frosty, then to the galvanized look. they continue to look galvanized, even when I get the temp down.

When they get the galvanized look, the spru almost falls off (breaks off) when i start to move the plate.

Been trying to stay in the 700 range, +/- 25 deg. altho once in a while the pot gets above 800.
Thanks

[Cactus Farmer]

For larger game I like my boolits a little softer so they stay together. Varmits are another thing. Hard brittle bullets at somewhat higher velosities are death on vermin. My 22 Hornet will just destroy a prairie dog at 200+ yards if I get the wind drift right. My 30s and larger still fragment well if I'm using WWs with a little tin so my molds fill out better. The larger boolits for bigger game are more lead less WW for weight retention and penatration. Fragmented boolits cause more meat to be destroyed too. I don't eat vermin so I don't worry about fragments then......might be giving the coyotes some lead problems though......Don't tell AL Gore....I hear he's looking for a "new cause"...........:groner:

[303Guy]

Any chance of pictures, semtav?

I have an interest in this as I am planning on switching from J-words to paper patched cast for all my shooting and this very question on boolit brittleness versus sufficient hardness for the velocity intended comes to mind.


My 22 Hornet will just destroy a prairie dog at 200+ yards ...
I would like to hear more about your hornet loads and boolits, Cactus Farmer.

[lwknight]

Using 4.5 lbs lead 1.5 lbs WW and 1 lb monotype.
Equates to 95-2-1.25 Lead-Antimony-Tin


and 4 lbs lead, 1.5 lbs WW and 1.5 lbs monotype
equates to about 94-4-2

Your first formula might be a bit brittle for lack of tin.
I suggest adding another ¾% of tin

Your second is not even as much antimony as “Hardball”
Which is the commercial recipe 92-6-2

I don't know why they would be so brittle.

[Jim]

You want brittle? Drop a whole roll(minus the spool) of 94/4/2 lead free solder in a Lee 20 lb. pot, top off with straight WWs and water drop them. Shoot a thick steel plate with them and they disintegrate as if they were cast iron. But, boy, buddy, will they penetrate!

[rob45]

Looking at some of the slugs after they've gone thru three refrig doors, two pallets and ricocheted (sp) off a piece of metal in the back.

Some are just bent, but a few have broke in half and look real grainy and brittle.
am I shooting too brittle of alloy or is that how they typically look inside?

Using 4.5 lbs lead 1.5 lbs WW and 1 lb monotype.
and 4 lbs lead, 1.5 lbs WW and 1.5 lbs monotype



For your first recipe (1 pound monotype) the approximate final percentages should be close to 1.5% tin, 3.5% antimony, and 95% lead. In other words, this recipe is equivalent to clip WW with an additional 1% tin added.

Your second recipe (extra half pound of mono and decreased lead) yields close to 2% tin, 5% antimony, and 93% lead. This is very close to the "hardball" formula of 2/6/92.

Neither one of these recipes should yield the extreme brittleness with which you're concerned, especially the one which replicates WW. The hardball alloy is considered too brittle by some people, yet plenty of people use it successfully even for hunting. For those who consider it too brittle, additional tin (bringing it up to something like Lyman No.2) will help offset the brittleness of the antimony.

From what I gather about your test parameters (three doors, two pallets, and stopped by a metal plate), you're pushing the bullet integrity to the extreme. Put it this way, simple wheel weights with tin have most likely been used successfully on every game in North America. So do the same test with bullets made just from wheel weights and see if you get the same type of results as your recipe alloys. You could even cut all three different types (your two different recipe bullets and the WW bullet) in half and see how they compare to each other inside.

Under the assumption that your test parameters are similar, if shooting the WW bullets shows considerably different results, i.e., they do not seem to be as brittle or break apart, I would consider the following:

Perform a hardness test on your bullets. Assuming you did not water-drop, "recipe #1" should give close to 12 BHN, just like WW+tin. "Recipe #2" should be close to 14 BHN. If these (air-cooled) bullets are considerably harder, then you have more antimony in your base materials than you assumed.

Many people unknowingly add foundry type (considerably higher in antimony) instead of monotype. This is a very common mistake for people that are not familiar with type metals. I'm not saying that you don't know what you're doing; I'm just saying that if your bullets are considerably harder than as stated above, that is the most likely explanation.

As far as frosting/galvanizing, that is an indication of excessive mold temp with any antimonial alloy. At first your bullets are shiny, then they frost as the mold warms up. The best solution to it (if it's a problem for you) is to drop the bullets sooner. I seem to get this problem most often with very hot aluminum molds. Same thing if I'm pouring ingots in an aluminum ingot mold. Since aluminum transfers heat so quickly, the molten metal solidifies quicker. The longer it sits in there after becoming solid, the more intense the exterior effect. I do get frosting when using iron, but the only time I have obtained the "galvanized" appearance is with hot aluminum in conjuction with leaving it in there too long.

Good Luck.:-)

[armyrat1970]

Shiney boolits. Then frosted. Then heavily frosted. You can do one of two things to correct that. Drop your alloy temp a little or slow down in your casting routine. If your sprue seems to just drop off when cutting, your mold is way hot. It takes a combination of all three (alloy temp, mold temp and casting speed) to get what you want but you only have to change one to get what you want. Your mold temp can change by changing the alloy temp or casting speed. And it takes some experimentation to get it right. Different calibers will also give different results.

[semtav]

Thanks for the replies.

I was wondering about the mold being too hot. plus, I think I need to try letting the pot temp settle down before I start.

I should have mentioned, I'm only shooting silhouettes (Quigley style) so I'm only interested in accuracy, not killing power.

I'll try to get a few pics.

[lwknight]

Most of the time the boolits actually liquify about 1/2 of the leading part of the boolit when it hits metal. Evidence of this is in the trap where the lead piles up into a large solid mass from the spatter,

[Dutch4122]

A good all around alloy that is used for hunting is 50% wheelweight and 50% pure lead. Adding tin is optional and I only do so to aid fillout.

The boolits will be soft (around 8 or 9 BHN) if allowed to air cool. If you water drop them straight from the mold into a bucket of water and give them a couple of weeks to stabilize hardness they will be 22 BHN. You can lower the hardness of water dropped by increasing the amount of pure lead to wheelweight in the mix. A good start with your 40-65 might be 1/3 wheelweight to 2/3 pure lead water dropped; or 1/4 wheelweight to 3/4 pure lead water dropped.

The water dropped alloy will be hard, but not brittle. I'm shooting the 50/50 alloy water dropped in my .444 Marlin @ 2200 fps with no leading. Accuracy is excellent.

Hope this helps,

[beagle]

I'm with Dutch...I like my bullets a little softer. I think the tendency is for softer bullets to seal better and give more accuracy.

Hard/brittle. I beleive the two go together. My old shooting partner got antsy one time and bought a load of #9 Magnum shot to make bullets from. They made nice, hard bullets and he was shooting them in a .32-40 at paper. Good accuracy or at least acceptable accuracy. Then we started recovering a LOT of .32 bases from the backstop as we always looked at what we shot. These were the base pieces and broke off about two lube grooves up from the base and I mean broken off like a fractured break with crystaline structure. We attributed this to the higher than normal antimony content in the #9 Magnum shot.

When he fired, a puff of white smoke immediately came from the muzzle followed by the normal smoke from lube. From this we deduced that he was getting blowby as the bullets were too hard.

The next step was to skim some of the antimony/lead "foam" off the top before fluxing. This was saved for alloying pure lead later. The bullets then became softer and accuracy went up and we found no more broken bases.

If accuracy is there and you're popping paper or plinking, don't worry about it. For hunting or varminting I'd go to a softer mix.

I know that cast wisdom over the years has specified the hardest bullets possible but I'm not one of those disciples./beagle

[felix]

That's where your copper laden babbit comes into play, John. But, you know that. ... felix

[semtav]

Thanks for all the ideas.
As a bonus, I went out today and tried another round to test the same loads again. literally couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. ( or refrig door)

Disgusted, I'm sitting here tonight and decide to push a patch thru it with a dowel I have handy just to wipe off the crud in the barrel.
I thought it didn't feel smooth so I double patched the dowel (5/16) and put some hoppes on it and drove it down the barrel.

Lots of slivers of lead came out. after 4-5 sessions of this, I think I got all the lead out and shoving a patch thru feels smooth as silk.

so to top it all off I've got a serious leading problem.

[armyrat1970]

Thanks for all the ideas.
As a bonus, I went out today and tried another round to test the same loads again. literally couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. ( or refrig door)

Disgusted, I'm sitting here tonight and decide to push a patch thru it with a dowel I have handy just to wipe off the crud in the barrel.
I thought it didn't feel smooth so I double patched the dowel (5/16) and put some hoppes on it and drove it down the barrel.

Lots of slivers of lead came out. after 4-5 sessions of this, I think I got all the lead out and shoving a patch thru feels smooth as silk.

so to top it all off I've got a serious leading problem.

To hard and to fast will produce leading as the boolit is skimming across the lands and shaving the alloy.

[Dutch4122]

One more quick & easy trick you could try; measure the inside diameter of the case neck on a fired case. If the measurement is larger than you are currently sizing your boolits to you should seriously consider sizing to that diameter or .001" below that measurement.

This technique and a softer alloy water dropped to a BHN that matches the pressures of your cartidge should eliminate the problems you are having.

Hope this helps,

[Lloyd Smale]

keep in mind what your shooting through, not to many bullets are going to hold together shooting them through steel doors.

[semtav]

my case measures .4115. my snover bullets are dropping .409.

I've got a different bullet that is dropping .4105 so I'll try that before I try switching alloys or enlarging my snover.

[Dutch4122]

I've got a different bullet that is dropping .4105 so I'll try that before I try switching alloys or enlarging my snover.

That should be just right. Give it a try and let us know how it shoots.

[semtav]

They shot great, I had 5 out of the ten almost touching at 320 yds, but had a couple flyers too. Had a little leading too, so maybe the flyers were the last couple I shot after it started leading. (a good spotting scope is on my wish list, cause I'm too lazy to walk down after each shot.)

Still need more work on the leading problem.

[beagle]

Yep! That was back when Petey was playing with #9 shot. Kept telling him they were too hard and finally he listened and was happy about it./beagle


That's where your copper laden babbit comes into play, John. But, you know that. ... felix