Polyester filler

[Marlin Junky]

I was wondering if there's a point where one can have too much Polyester filler in a cartridge case; or, basically are there any guidelines describing how much Polyester to use?

Yesterday I was using 2.5 grains of Polyester in the 444 behind a 240 grain BB-SWC and it shot pretty good except for the fact that WC-820 was not burning consistently (vertical stringing as a result of ES's up to 300 fps on a couple occasions with most rounds hovering around 1500 fps). Those rounds clocking near 1500 fps landed in pretty well formed groups but next time out I'm going to switch powders for this application (for now at least, I don't want to exceed 1600 fps with these boolits). WC-820 burns a heck of a lot better when reduced in the 30-30 than the straight-wall .444 so I'm going to shoot for 1500-1600 fps with SR-4759 (I think I might still have some mil-surp laying around).

Back to the question at hand: could the erratic ignition been due to too much Polyester? I wanted to use enough Polyester to provide a gas seal for the boolits and keep the powder against the flash hole while limiting air space. I was going to try 3 grains of Polyester with 23 grains of WC-820 but now I'm not so sure about that. Yesterday, while shooting 22 grains of 820 and 2.5 grains of Polyester, I did find partially melted Polyester fiber (pillow stuffing) in the chronograph. I doubt another .5 grains of Polyester is going to eliminate the occasional velocity anomaly which I though for a second may have been a chronograph hiccup because of all the Polyester I was using; however, each time I recorded a round 200 fps or more below the mean, the resulting impact was way high (I'm shooting a 18.5" barreled gun at 50 yard targets with a Williams FP that's cranked way up there... I gotta get me a longer barreled gun).

I'm guessing 23 grains of 4759 and about 2 grains of Polyester should net me about 1500 fps with the 240 BB-SWC... any opinions?

MJ

[Marlin Hunter]

Wouldn't polyester residue make the barrel dirty and cause erratic pressure and accuracy?

[MT Gianni]

As an aside I've used 820 in 30-30, 7,62x39, 308 with out fillers. I'd try it without. It isn't terribly hard to ignite.

[StarMetal]

As an aside I've used 820 in 30-30, 7,62x39, 308 with out fillers. I'd try it without. It isn't terribly hard to ignite.


Those are bottle necked. Powder burns differently in bottle neck cases then straight ones. The 444 is a much larger bore too, that makes a difference.

As far as the poly filler the stuff sold as batting is pretty springy and you need only cut off a piece that will the space between the powder and the base of the bullet.

As for the powdered poly shotshell filler....better be very very careful with that stuff.

And no poly doesn't normally leave residue in the bore. Stuff like Dacron actually get's blown out the barrel and doesn't get burnt.

Joe

[405]

You might give 5744 or 4759 a try with and without a filler. Don't know if these powders will get you to 1500-1600 fps and maintain the best accuracy, though.

Seems like 2 - 2.5 gr of filler is too much. Works best for me when it's very low density with those type loads using 5744 in the 45-70. My dacron filler weighs only .5 - .75 gr. I use it by volume (not weight) based on the space that needs to be filled. I use the stuff labeled "Extra High Loft", cut into rectangles about 3/8" x 3/4" then teased out to a size a little larger than the space to be filled. Can shoot velocity SDs under 10 fps with these loads to about 1200 fps and a 400-425 gr GC bullet. Oh and they're accurate too.

[Marlin Junky]

Stuff like Dacron actually get's blown out the barrel and doesn't get burnt.

Joe

Joe,

I'm not sure what the stuff I'm using is, but I pulled it out of an old pillow and I did find some of it charred inside my chronograph.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

You might give 5744 or 4759 a try with and without a filler. Don't know if these powders will get you to 1500-1600 fps and maintain the best accuracy, though.

Yeah, I am going to try 23 and 24 grains of 4759 but I'm going to stick with 2 plus grains of the Poly filler because I think it's acting as a gas check of sorts and helps to keep the barrel clean while using my silly BB boolits.

MJ

[405]

Ya, the more dense filler could help seal the base. Looking at the wild ES of 200 fps or more seems to indicate something wacky with that powder in that load. The extra filler shouldn't cause a problem with the light loads of either 4759 or 5744. Fillers will add pressure but by staying way on the lower charge/pressure end.... likely OK with those powders.

When I see filler get blown out it is usually a cloud of shreds of the poly. When looking at it on the ground in front of the gun it is various sized pieces with no melting apparent. Maybe with some powders the melting could happen with unburned powder mixed into the fill then igniting after it leaves the muzzle. I've never seen any evidence of melted poly inside the bore after firing.

pic of how I load dacron/poly filler

[Shiloh]

Is polyester and dacron the same thing??

Shiloh

[StarMetal]

Joe,

I'm not sure what the stuff I'm using is, but I pulled it out of an old pillow and I did find some of it charred inside my chronograph.

MJ

I meant that it didn't get burned up, consumed, in the barrel. Of course it's going to get charred.

Joe

[beagle]

When I was shooting the .38-55 with my shooting partner years ago, we used a lot of dacron with AA2200.

Our rule of thumb was that when you started seeing dacron being blown out, you were using too much.

An ES of 200 is pretty indicative of something amiss in the ignition for sure but I don't beleive it's the dacron. I'd more likely suspect the WC820.

I've used WC820 in the .444, .45/70 and the .38/55. It works but I haven't used it enough in these calibers to be absolutely at ease with working with it. On the other hand, it seems to do well in .30/30, .35 Rem, .30/06 and other bottle necked cases./beagle

[StarMetal]

Yup, if it looks like you're blowing dandelions out the end of your barrel you're loading too much Dacron.

Joe

[tall grass]

Dacron is a brand name of polyester. Dupont maybe? Most cheaper pillows have polyester as the batting. It's what I use.

JIm

[StarMetal]

Dacron is a brand name of polyester. Dupont maybe? Most cheaper pillows have polyester as the batting. It's what I use.

JIm

Yup, Dacron is DuPont's name brand.

Joe

[Ricochet]

Yeah, I've used too much and had the gray dandelion fluff blowing all around, but I've never seen the stuff melt on firing.

[mpmarty]

Lyman cast book only recommends a half grain of dacron filler. I have a humongous bag of the stuff and a tiny pinch fluffed up and stuffed over powder works for me to keep the powder against the base of the case. I can't believe there is any kind of "seal" formed by this stuff, it looks like the angel hair we string on the Christmas tree.

[StarMetal]

Lyman cast book only recommends a half grain of dacron filler. I have a humongous bag of the stuff and a tiny pinch fluffed up and stuffed over powder works for me to keep the powder against the base of the case. I can't believe there is any kind of "seal" formed by this stuff, it looks like the angel hair we string on the Christmas tree.

You cannot go by a recommended grain weight, until after you have found the proper amount to fill the void between the powder and bullet base. Then that's kind of anal to weigh the stuff. One of the best methods is to buy quilt batting which is about 1/2 thick and cut appropriate size strips, then the correct length again to fill the void.

Joe

[GBertolet]

I think you are using too much filler. I use it in my 375 H&H with 4759 powder. I use just enough to hold the powder against the primer. The dacron is elastic and expands against the case wall. A little dab will do you. You do not want to fill the unused part of the case. I press it down against the powder with the eraser end of a pencil. A tiny bit goes a long way. This will hold for any reasonable handling of the loaded round. My bore is spotless with no residue found anywhere. This small amount is obviously consumed upon firing.

[R.C. Hatter]

I believe you are using much more filler than necessary. 1/2 to 3/4 gr., but not more than 1.0 gr of filler pushed lightly, not tightly, down on the powder would be plenty to hold the powder against the flash hole. The above amount is sufficient to retain the powder during any normal cartridge handling which is what you are trying to do to begin with.

[Marlin Junky]

Next week I'm going to switch to 4759 and try 25 rounds with 2-3 grains of polyester (depending on powder level in the case) and 25 without. Based on my experience so far with these bevel base boolits, I think they shoot cleaner and group better with filler than without. I know for sure that COW reduces fouling, all else equal, but I don't like using it. I'll be looking at the difference, if any, in barrel condition and chronograph stats between the two loads. The main reason for filler in this case is to protect the bases and be able to get a little more useful velocity with PB boolits... not so much just "fill the void" because I can get good results with fast pistol powders sloshing around in the case if I were happy with < 1400 fps.

MJ

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I use cotton. It burns cleanly and will not melt in the barrel as some synthetics will. Try this experiment. Burn a cotton wad then burn a wad of whatever synthetic you choose. You can see for yourself. You can buy a large bag of medical cotton balls for less than two bucks. Actually I no longer use wads with smokless. After reading an article by Steve Garbe about ringing the chambers of large calibre rifles using wads. I finished reading the piece about ten PM. Regardless of the hour I had to check. I checked my Pedersoli 45-70 and looked closely in the chamber. Sure enough, there were very faint rings at about the spot where the base of the bullit woud be. I then checked my 38-55 Win. hi-wall. Same rings. Very faint and easy to overlook but still there. I do use card board and veggie wads with black powder but the wads are already pressed against the bullit base. I can detect no problem with there use.

[StarMetal]

I use cotton. It burns cleanly and will not melt in the barrel as some synthetics will. Try this experiment. Burn a cotton wad then burn a wad of whatever synthetic you choose. You can see for yourself. You can buy a large bag of medical cotton balls for less than two bucks. Actually I no longer use wads with smokless. After reading an article by Steve Garbe about ringing the chambers of large calibre rifles using wads. I finished reading the piece about ten PM. Regardless of the hour I had to check. I checked my Pedersoli 45-70 and looked closely in the chamber. Sure enough, there were very faint rings at about the spot where the base of the bullit woud be. I then checked my 38-55 Win. hi-wall. Same rings. Very faint and easy to overlook but still there. I do use card board and veggie wads with black powder but the wads are already pressed against the bullit base. I can detect no problem with there use.

I wouldn't use cotton, it's heavier then poly. If you want to use something like cotton use Kapok. You have just gotten away with using cotton so far. Some day it will bite you. I hope it doesn't.

Joe

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Starmetal,if you will read my thread again you will notice that I no longer use wading of any kind with smokeless.

[405]

I used to think the same thing but now not so sure. I've been fortunate enough to have inspected a lot of old chambers. Both from BP era and transition era where both BP and smokeless were being shot. Guess what. Most have the small rings near where the base of the bullet sits. I know these guns never had any type of filler used. At most the BP era guns may have had a card wad on top of the powder under the bullet base. That's not to say the wrong wad or filler used incorrectly can't cause rings.... just that until folks started inspecting guns carefully, they may not have noticed the rings that were there all along.

Kind of reminds me of the days of non-toxic shot transiton for waterfowl. In different locations where waterfowl hunting is big the local club members were asked to bring their favorite old duck and goose slayers along when attending meetings to go over the steel shot/nontoxic shot issues. None of those shotguns had ever seen a steel shot round. Almost all of them had ring bulges at the choke forcing cone! :shock:

[StarMetal]

Starmetal,if you will read my thread again you will notice that I no longer use wading of any kind with smokeless.

I was talking about the cotton balls sir.

Joe

[StarMetal]

I used to think the same thing but now not so sure. I've been fortunate enough to have inspected a lot of old chambers. Both from BP era and transition era where both BP and smokeless were being shot. Guess what. Most have the small rings near where the base of the bullet sits. I know these guns never had any type of filler used. At most the BP era guns may have had a card wad on top of the powder under the bullet base. That's not to say the wrong wad or filler used incorrectly can't cause rings.... just that until folks started inspecting guns carefully, they may not have noticed the rings that were there all along.

Kind of reminds me of the days of non-toxic shot transiton for waterfowl. In different locations where waterfowl hunting is big the local club members were asked to bring their favorite old duck and goose slayers along when attending meetings to go over the steel shot/nontoxic shot issues. None of those shotguns had ever seen a steel shot round. Almost all of them had ring bulges at the choke forcing cone! :shock:

Yup that's why I try to tell members to not fool with unknown proven fillers. But as curious bunch they are they stuff just about anything into their cases especially if the stuff is free.

Joe

[GOPHER SLAYER]

405, you may be right. I have thought myself, why wouldn't a bullit sitting there in the mouth of the case cause a ring, over time , when suddenly hit in the butt with the expanding gases of smokeless powder, wad or no wad? When the same cases were loaded with black, the gas didn't have a chance to expand much before the bullit was already moving. I do remember in the articles in BPCR, the author said he would never load a black powder case larger than 45-90 with smokeless. Maybe we just have to live with it. I don't mind cleaning a rifle after shooting black powder, it's the cases I hate to clean. I read in the book, African Rifles & Cartridges, John Taylor wrote, ( I love black powder and the guns that use it). My sentiments exactly.

[GBertolet]

Using lesser amounts of dacron greatly reduces the chances of having any ringing of the chamber, versus heavier amounts. I feel the use of dacron should be used as a position retainer of gunpowder, rather than as a volume filler. I believe much, if not all is consumed inside the case on firing, at these lesser levels.

[Nrut]

I must be odd man out as I stuff the Dacron in tight and use it as a wadding similar what the "Nitro for Black" guys are doing.. They are using powders like H4198..
EDIT: While the dacron is stuffed in tight it fills the area from the powder up to the bullet base and is compressed slightly when the boolit is seated..

I have used H4198 as well as reduced loads of H4895.. All in straight walled cases so far..
I need to do some more research but I'm thinking this method might work with slower powders as well...

:coffee:

[StarMetal]

I must be odd man out as I stuff the Dacron in tight and use it as a wadding similar what the "Nitro for Black" guys are doing.. I'm talking about using straight wall cases with reduced loads of medium burning rate powders like H4895..Another faster powder used is H4198..
I need to do some more research but I'm thinking this method might work with slower powders as well...
:coffee:

I think you're living on borrowed time. [smilie=s:

Joe

[Nrut]

I think you're living on borrowed time. [smilie=s:

Joe

Yep most likely..

Read what Ross Seyfried and Sherman Bell are doing..
I am merely doing what others have already done and have tested..:-)

There is no air space between the powder and the boolit base.. The Dacron is "not" lightly teased to fill the air space but packed in the case tightly

[Marlin Junky]

I just wanted to follow up by saying that I compared 23.5 grains of 4759 and 2.0 grains of polyester pillow stuffing to 25.5 grains of 4759 and no stuffing today (all else equal). The stats over the chronograph were about the same with respect to consistency, with a slight advantage going to the stuffed load. The stuffed load also produced a pinch more velocity (roughly 2% more).

The big difference was with respect to barrel condition and accuracy. The stuffed load shot very well while the unstuffed load pretty much sucked. It was a cool, damp day and I was using BAC with a little LBT Soft Blue mixed in. Without the poly filler it didn't take long to foul the barrel (less than 10 rounds); however, while using the stuffed loads, the barrel remained in good condition through the 25 round test and the last 5 rounds shot quickly at 50 yards (FP receiver sight/Fire Sight) went into 1.25". The 10 rounds before that went into a hair over 1.5". The remaining stuffed rounds were fired at 75 yards and I didn't retain the targets 'cause that was too far for the Fire Sight today; i.e., it was too dark and I didn't have the correct target for the task at 75 yards (obvious shooter caused vertical deviation was the result).

Anyway, the 2 grains of pillow stuffing seemed to work today as a gas check of sorts, so I think I'll shoot a bunch of rounds at near 1700 fps (24 grains 4759/2 grains pillow stuffing) and see what happens.

MJ

P.S. So ya'll don't have to hunt for the other pertinent load stuff, the carbine is the short barreled Marlin 444 with the 20" twist and the boolits are some funky old BB relics (from a Magma mold) that I bought unsized/unlubed from a commercial casting outfit which weigh right at 240 grains (I sized them to .4330-.4335"). I haven't tested them for hardness yet but they're probably on the order of BHN 16... I'll test them later tonight.

[Larry Gibson]

I must be odd man out as I stuff the Dacron in tight and use it as a wadding similar what the "Nitro for Black" guys are doing.. They are using powders like H4198..I have used H4198 as well as reduced loads of H4895.. All in straight walled cases so far..
I need to do some more research but I'm thinking this method might work with slower powders as well...

:coffee:

Nrut

I offer the following as my findings with my tests and what I do, you are of course free to do as you will. It is provided for your information.

Some time back I ran a test for the boys on the single shot or BP forum regarding 5744, 3031 and fillers of dacron and COW in the 45-70. You may not be aware but I have an Oehler M43 and can actually measure pressures and observe the pressure curve. I found that with 25 gr of 5744 (old and new) under a 413 gr hard cast bullet that pressure did increase with the use of a 3/4 gr dacron filler and velocity increased approximately 120 fps over the same load used without a filler. Accuracy was also better with the use of the 3/4 gr dacron filler. I also ran the same load with a 2 1/2 gr heavily compressed dacron filler. The accuracy was also improved but the velocity was back down with the no filler load but the pressure remained the same as with the 3/4 gr dacron filler load. Thus I saw a definate benifit to using the 3/4 dacron load but no additional benifit with the use of more filler. I saw no hazard with the use of either amount of dacron as a filler.

After that test using AA5744 I decided to run the same test using 4895 since I mostly use that powder with my smokeless 400-500 gr cast bullet 45-70 loads. The results using 4895 were almost exactly the same as the results using 5744. The 3/4 gr dacron filler gave the best accuracy with additional velocity at a somewhat higher pressure but safe pressure. The use of 1, 1.5, 2 and 2.5 gr dacron fillers produced no additional benefit of accuracy or velocity and pressure did not increase. There was absolutely no indication of any spike in preassure or any dangerous level of pressure. Thus I use the 3/4 gr dacron filler in my very accurate 4895 powder using 400-500 gr cast bullet 45-70 loads for my trapdoor rifles.

However, I have not run this test with bottle neck cartridges yet. I am waiting for a tudge warmer weather. Thus I do not know what pressures do in bottle neck cases with heavy compressed dacron fillers. I shall find out.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

Larry, please do keep us posted on the bottleneck-cartridge results. It would be very interesting to see a trend with accuracy/pressure as you did with the straight-wall stuff. I'm wanting to experiment more with filler in a couple of calibers, any real-world info I can get on fillers and the effect therof would be of great help.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

Larry,

Was accuracy with 5744 increased by the use of dacron because the barrel condition improved (perhaps because of a better gas seal) or was it simply because of better stats over the chronograph due to more pressure, or was it a combination of the two, or something else I've over looked? It's definitely easier to poor a little more powder in the case for a bit more pressure but my findings seem to suggest that barrels may run cleaner with dacron added. I suppose there's always the possibility that a lube and alloy adjustment may eliminate the need for any filler but I'm trying to use up some specific boolits; and BTW, they do register a tad over BHN 16. Also, I notice that the consumption of stuffing was more complete while using 4759 opposed to WC-820. I think because I stored the rounds loaded with 820 boolit down in the box for a few days, (and drove them to the range that way) the filler may have mixed with the powder somewhat. Perhaps, using a large grain extruded powder with dacron filler is a better idea than a very fine spherical powder.

MJ

[Larry Gibson]

Marlin Junky

Was accuracy with 5744 increased by the use of dacron because the barrel condition improved (perhaps because of a better gas seal) or was it simply because of better stats over the chronograph due to more pressure, or was it a combination of the two, or something else I've over looked?

Frankly I've not found 5744 to be an efficient burner with 400 or so gr cast bullets in TD level 45-70 loads until around 28 gr was used and then it was at the top end for a TD load. I realise that's not a problem with your Marlins and it wasn't in my test rifle (Siamese mauser). I only mention it because of the 25 gr test load which was at the request of those I was doing the test for. I did find the 25 gr load with the 3/4 gr dacron filler to be more accurate, burn cleaner and produced less pressure than a 28 gr load without filler both giving pretty equal velocities. When I use 5744 with 385 - 4020 gr bullets for loads in my TDs I will definately use the 25 gr + 3/4 gr dacron filler load. The better accuracy justifies the end. The 5744 definately burns cleaner at a certain pressure level. I have found that to be the case in bottle necked cartridges also. This is why I only recommend 5744 for use with the heavier bullets ina given cartridge expecting velocities in the middle range and top end for cast bullets.

It's definitely easier to poor a little more powder in the case for a bit more pressure but my findings seem to suggest that barrels may run cleaner with dacron added.

That is my findings for the most part also. The added accuracy usually associated with more consistent ignition is the other reason. They both run hand in hand.

I suppose there's always the possibility that a lube and alloy adjustment may eliminate the need for any filler but I'm trying to use up some specific boolits; and BTW, they do register a tad over BHN 16.

That is the BHN range of the commercial cast bullets i was using. I find for hunting loads that a AC'd alloy of 50/50 WW/lead when used with medium burning powders (I find 4895 to be the most useful) to give very acceptable hunting accuracy for at least 7-10 shots at higher than expected velocities. Makes for more efficient killing of game if expansion is involved, even with 45-70 cast bullets.

Also, I notice that the consumption of stuffing was more complete while using 4759 opposed to WC-820. I think because I stored the rounds loaded with 820 boolit down in the box for a few days, (and drove them to the range that way) the filler may have mixed with the powder somewhat. Perhaps, using a large grain extruded powder with dacron filler is a better idea than a very fine spherical powder.

My reason for going from a dacron wad to a filler was because of powder migration into and around the wad if it was jarred loose by travel or by recoil. Got numerous hangfires until I figured out the problem. I also for the most part stear clear of ball powders for the reason you mention. I will use a ball powder if it gives 80%+ loading density and exhibits easy ignition charactoristics. Otherwise I use ball powders for higher pressure loads only where they work well.

Larry Gibson

[243winxb]

I'm not sure what the stuff I'm using is No unknow S@&*% should be loaded in the case IMO. Unless its Kapok. Even Kapok will not make a difference. Change powders.